Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Andrew Ikin]

Thank you Jose,

Here's an earlier Ref..  R. Keen;  Wireless Direction Finding and 
Directional Reception 1927 Page 75. Describes Heart-Shape Circuit (Societe 
Francaise Radio Electrique) using a two turn loop with a connexion to ground 
via a variable resistor. It is very much like the K9AY.


A two turn K9AY with the a 1m separation at the horizontal ends of the 
triangle or diamond shape with give approx. 3dB gain increase providing that 
the loops total length doesn't exceed approx. Lambda/4. Great for MW and LF 
work.  Size for size this antenna has the highest gain of all the terminate 
cardioid loops.


J. A. Lambert G3FNZ RadCom Nov. 82 Describes the C & S Antennas Ltd 
Directional active loop receiving antenna system. The article describes how 
cardioid pattern is created from the loops figure of 8 pattern ( H field ) 
and the monpole  mode  ( E field ).



73

Andrew

Hi Andrew

In this case it is very important to consider that both antennas are close 
to the ground. It means the reflection from the ground is different for 
vertical vectors, that see a image below the ground in the same phase and 
the horizontal vector that see a 180 degree image that cancel the horizontal 
components in opposite phase. The vertical components adds because they are 
in phase.


There are very few books about loaded loop receiver antennas, most because 
the WWII use.


https://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lot/

See the slides download.

You will find a reference of the first loaded loop patent. 1938 Horizontal 
polarized.


Harold Beverage patents 1938 1941 ( 80 years ago) •US 2138134 A  Phasing 
antennas •US 2247743 A  Broad Band RX Antenna •


https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/73/83/00/14943032331cef/US2247743.pdf

and 1940 vertical polarized

1940. Nearly all the newly re-invented compact receive antennas derive from 
the terminated loop, the earliest
reference was in an appallingly mimeographed prewar training manual of W3EEE 
Dad‘s


1973 COMMUNICATIONS 74 CONFERENCE BRIGHTON Wednesday, June 5 1974 — Session 
5 Equipment Design
Paper 5.3: Loop Antennas for HF Reception Contributed by: B.S.Collins, C & S 
Antennas Ltd.,


73’s
JC
N4IS




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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Jose_Carlos]

Sent from Mail for Windows

Hi Andrew

In this case it is very important to consider that both antennas are close to 
the ground. It means the reflection from the ground is different for vertical 
vectors, that see a image below the ground in the same phase and the horizontal 
vector that see a 180 degree image that cancel the horizontal components in 
opposite phase. The vertical components adds because they are in phase.

There are very few books about loaded loop receiver antennas, most because the 
WWII use.

https://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lot/

See the slides download.

You will find a reference of the first loaded loop patent. 1938 Horizontal 
polarized.

Harold Beverage patents 1938 1941 ( 80 years ago) •US 2138134 A  Phasing 
antennas •US 2247743 A  Broad Band RX Antenna •

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/73/83/00/14943032331cef/US2247743.pdf

and 1940 vertical polarized

1940. Nearly all the newly re-invented compact receive antennas derive from the 
terminated loop, the earliest
reference was in an appallingly mimeographed prewar training manual of W3EEE 
Dad‘s

1973 COMMUNICATIONS 74 CONFERENCE BRIGHTON Wednesday, June 5 1974 — Session 5 
Equipment Design
Paper 5.3: Loop Antennas for HF Reception Contributed by: B.S.Collins, C & S 
Antennas Ltd.,

73’s
JC
N4IS




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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Andrew Ikin]

Hi Jose,

I think that we are going to agree to disagree as to how these type of 
cardioid antennas work. Yes you are correct that there is a vertical antenna 
mode, but you can't ignore that the induce current from the H field has to 
be managed. Lets say that the induced currents from the E and H fields 
differ by 90 degrees or put it another way the currents are -45 and +45 
degrees. These cannot be added to generate a cardioid. However, as these 
currents flow though the termination resistor, then the phase difference 
diminishes because the resistor tends to be the dominant reactance in the 
antenna. At a certain resistor value the induce currents can be equalise so 
that they can be added in a similar manner like a sense antenna in a loop DF 
system. As the relationship of the E and H field is constant over a wide 
bandwidth and so is cardioid.


If you phase 2 verticals you will find that the rear pattern does shows a 
good high angle FB. This is not the case with a Flag. Now phase a loop with 
a vertical and you will see the opposite is true. Just like a simple Flag.




73

Andrew



Hi Andrew

He concept is very simple, you can phase 2 verticals. 3 verticals or 4 
vertical. See you got,  two verticals in phase give you a cardioid pattern, 
only one deep null on the back. Moving to 3 or 4 verticals gives you two 
deep side nulls plus some front back.


The SAL does not have side lobe nulls. The feed system does no change the 
fact that you have only two vertical wires as antenna, the inclined wire can 
be describe as two vectors one vertical and another horizontal. The two 
vertical vector and the center of the inclined wire define the pattern.


See the case of a DHDL, invented by George AA7JV, the vertical wires are far 
apart and the two inclined wires vertical vectors are half way each other. 
The DHDL has 4 verticals as the Waller Flag with two independent loops 
making 4 verticals as well, but the gain  of the DHDL is 1-2 db below the 
WF. Why?  the reflection between the two loops and the proximity of the two 
vertical vectors impact the DHDL pattern, as well  the two verticals wires 
on the SAL.


The SAL and the DHDL does not have side lobe nulls.

One Loaded loop or EWE, K9AY RDF is close to 9 db, the SAL and DHDL are 
slighted better RDF  10 db on EZENEC, but again on practice, measuring the 
diagram  of irradiation the SAL never achieved the extra 1 db in RDF. Two 
loaded loops has side lobe nulls and RDF is close to 12 db, very similar to 
3 element yagi azimuth diagram. Both antennas, the SAL and the K9AY have 
impressive deep null on the back, giving you a good front back. It is a null 
on the back , very different than front rear, that take the 180 degree 
energy between the front and the back.



You can find several stations using two DHDL in phase and it does work, but 
you wont find any array of two SAL because the phase is so critical that 
became impractical.


73's
JC
N4IS



73

Andrew Ikin

G8LUG


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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[n4is]

Hi Don

That's a very interesting question. The K9AY is ground dependent.  The reason 
is simple, the Loaded loop of flag has a resistor in one side and the 
transformer on the other side. If you want to make it reversible you need two 
relays, one on each end of the loop.

What K9AY did was genius, he created a transmission line between the horizontal 
wire and the ground. Keeping the horizontal wire close to the ground it does 
work as a transmission line and you can move the resistor and transformer close 
at the center of the wire. With the resistor and the transformer closed to the 
center you can use just one relay to reverse direction. The switching for 4 
direction became easy to implement.

The horizontal wire must be close to the ground, is you raise the ends of the 
K9AY the impedance of the transmission line also raise and deteriorate the SWR 
on the loop, deteriorating the pattern as well.

Same on the SAL the ground is part of the antenna. Very different of the Flag 
and WF that is ground independent. You can install a flag or WF at 50 FT high 
and pattern will be the same , not the case of the SAL or K9AY. Not because the 
loop, but because the transmission line that allows you to move the resistor 
and the transformer close to the center of the antenna.

The SAL is the same, the two transformers 1:X loaded the wire as a resistor and 
a transformer, there is no magic about that, electrically it is a resistor load 
and a transformer, changing the name of the device does not change how it 
works. You cannot install the SAL far from the ground, it does not work, the 
same way the K9AY does not work far from the ground.

73's
JC
N4IS


-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of 
Don Kirk
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 12:15 AM
To: Jose_Carlos 
Cc: W0MU Mike Fatchett ; topband 
Subject: Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

Hi Jose,

To keep things simple, I say the K9AY is not like a pennant or flag since it 
has been demonstrated by many people to be more ground dependent (sometimes 
needing added ground radials).  Under certain conditions the K9AY should be 
identical to a Flag or Pennant but since ground radials have been shown to 
drastically impact the K9AY performance depending on the ground conditions this 
sure does not sound like this is always the case.

I won't debate the SAL (Shared Apex Loop), other than to say from a 
construction standpoint it's definitely not the same as the K9AY or other EWE 
type antenna (Flag, Pennants, etc.), and modeling the SAL definitely yields a 
different pattern than a single pennant or flag when used in the "in line 
direction" but as you said modeling does not always reflect reality (your 
example was EZNEC not doing a good job with loops close to ground).  I have 
never used an SAL and therefore my statements are only based on what modeling 
yields, but to say the SAL is the same as a K9AY is hard to believe regardless 
if it performs better or worse than the K9AY, just based on the design.

P.S. I believe there is a newer version of the SAL in which the two halves of 
the SAL share the same center vertical conductor, but again I'm not making any 
claims about the design.  Also note I'm using 4NEC2 for my modeling, not that 
it necessarily impacts my above statements.

73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 10:27 PM Jose_Carlos  wrote:

> Don
>
> I’m afraid your information is not accurate, SAL is the same as a 
> K9AY, the two wires close to each other can be removed because they 
> cancel each other. The remain wires works like two vertical in phase, 
> as the same in any flag, loaded loop or pennant. The cardioid pattern is the 
> same.
>
> The is no implementation of two SAL in phase because it does not work, 
> the phasing system is too complex to phase two SAL.
>
> If you know the people that actually tested the antenna, you know that 
> the claimed RDF was never achieved.
>
> The RDF of the K9AY is the same of the SAL, the EZENEC does a horrible 
> job with loops close to the ground.
>
> Saying that, both antennas are excellent receiver antennas if you 
> don’t have anything else.
>
> 73’s
> JC
> N4IS
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows
>
> From: Don Kirk
> Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 7:19 PM
> To: W0MU Mike Fatchett
> Cc: topband
> Subject: Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions
>
> Hi Mike and gang,
>
> It has been a long time since I looked at the SAL in which I modeled 
> it with the help of the designer of the SAL (KB7GF).  The SAL is 
> actually different than the K9AY and other EWE types of RX antennas 
> which have a typical RDF value of around 7.8 because the SAL (Shared 
> Apex Loop) antenna actively uses two of its loops which are "in line" 
> with each other for what you might call the primary direction 
> (direction in line with the loops), and these two phased loops can 
> provid

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[n4is]

Hi Andrew

He concept is very simple, you can phase 2 verticals. 3 verticals or 4  
vertical. See you got,  two verticals in phase give you a cardioid pattern, 
only one deep null on the back. Moving to 3 or 4 verticals gives you two deep 
side nulls plus some front back.

The SAL does not have side lobe nulls. The feed system does no change the fact 
that you have only two vertical wires as antenna, the inclined wire can be 
describe as two vectors one vertical and another horizontal. The two vertical 
vector and the center of the inclined wire define the pattern.

See the case of a DHDL, invented by George AA7JV, the vertical wires are far 
apart and the two inclined wires vertical vectors are half way each other. The 
DHDL has 4 verticals as the Waller Flag with two independent loops making 4 
verticals as well, but the gain  of the DHDL is 1-2 db below the  WF. Why?  the 
reflection between the two loops and the proximity of the two vertical vectors 
impact the DHDL pattern, as well  the two verticals wires on the SAL.

The SAL and the DHDL does not have side lobe nulls.

One Loaded loop or EWE, K9AY RDF is close to 9 db, the SAL and DHDL are 
slighted better RDF  10 db on EZENEC, but again on practice, measuring the 
diagram  of irradiation the SAL never achieved the extra 1 db in RDF. Two 
loaded loops has side lobe nulls and RDF is close to 12 db, very similar to 3 
element yagi azimuth diagram. Both antennas, the SAL and the K9AY have 
impressive deep null on the back, giving you a good front back. It is a null on 
the back , very different than front rear, that take the 180 degree energy 
between the front and the back.


You can find several stations using two DHDL in phase and it does work, but you 
wont find any array of two SAL because the phase is so critical that became 
impractical.

73's
JC
N4IS



73

Andrew Ikin

G8LUG


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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Andrew Ikin]

N4IS, Wrote on Jan. 7.  " I’m afraid your information is not accurate, SAL 
is the same as a K9AY, the two wires close to each other can be removed 
because they cancel each other. The remain wires works like two vertical in 
phase, as the same in any flag, loaded loop or pennant. The cardioid pattern 
is the same."



Jose,

The SAL is a very close spaced phased array of two loop antennas, hence, it 
has high rejection of the Electric Field in the antennas near field at MF. 
The K9AY is a combination of a H and E field antenna, that generates its 
cardioid pattern by combining the two fields using the termination resistor 
to reduce the phase and amplitude difference  between these fields. Hence, 
the K9AY and other similar antennas like the FLAG are prone to pattern 
distortion if nearby objects are within the antennas near-field.


The SAL has different pattern compared to the K9AY.

Early editions of Keens Wireless Direction Finding describe and two turn 
cardioid loop with a ground connexion in a similar fashion to the K9AY.


73

Andrew Ikin

G8LUG


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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Artek Manuals]

Comments below

On 1/7/2022 6:23 AM, Roger Kennedy wrote:



But I picked up on people saying that EZNEC doesn't model these antennas
near the ground very well.


This is very true of EZENEC based on NEC -2EZENEC PRO 4 based on 
NEC-4 depending on attention to detail and uniformity of soil conditions 
can produce results for models near ground that represent reality.  
NEC-5 was intended to address  the lack of uniformity in the ground 
medium ( i.e having half your ground plane consumed by 3 story apartment 
building as an example) but the modeling could becomes quite an 
exercise. Unfortunately the father of NEC-5 passed away unexpectedly and 
left its development in limbo  and a fair share of questions and 
possible bugs. When last I talked to LLNL they were still searching for 
a replacement for Jerry





I think part of the reason is that DX Propagation on 160 is usually much
higher angle than on 80m . . . but I also think that there is more low angle
radiation from my Dipole than EZNEC would suggest !


This is very true especially near gray line. I have noticed on numerous 
occasions the the F/B on my Beverage and BOGS becomes very poor at 
gray-line only to return to expected performance later in the evening. 
Popular wisdom suggests that most 160 DX occurs at 15-25 degree arrival 
angle . I suspect that gray line propagation arrives due to "ducting" at 
even higher angles. I am toying with the idea of building a loop on a 
gimble that would allow  rotation not only for azimuth but for elevation 
as well. I suspect however that I will find that the arrival angle can 
change quite rapidly making it hard to track and is one of the reasons 
for deep QSB


Dave

NR1DX

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Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Roger Kennedy]

Sadly I don't have room for ANY kind of Pennant or SAL Receive antenna, let
alone a Beverage or Loop on the Ground (hence my 6ft Rx Loop in the Loft) .
. . 

But I picked up on people saying that EZNEC doesn't model these antennas
near the ground very well.

I actually believe that EZNEC's predictions for a 160m Dipole near the
ground (like mine is at 50ft) are also very wrong . . . given that I have no
wires on the ground under the antenna, it really has no way of knowing what
is really under the antenna, especially as you go deeper.

These days I always monitor RBN when on Top Band looking for DX . . . and I
notice that my signal in NA is usually very comparable with most of the
other Gs, who are all using decent verticals.

I think part of the reason is that DX Propagation on 160 is usually much
higher angle than on 80m . . . but I also think that there is more low angle
radiation from my Dipole than EZNEC would suggest !

Roger G3YRO


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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Don Kirk]

Hi Jose,

I would like to make one more comment to make us all scratch our heads.
You said "The remain wires works like two vertical in phase, as the same in
any flag".  But the Flag when modeled has an RDF of around 7.8 but you can
model two 14 foot tall phased verticals (somewhat similar to verticals like
those used in the YCCC design as an example) spaced 29 feet apart (same
dimensions as a full size flag) and obtain an RDF of 9.26 which is
definitely not the same as the Flag (just something to ponder).

Don (wd8dsb)

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 12:14 AM Don Kirk  wrote:

> Hi Jose,
>
> To keep things simple, I say the K9AY is not like a pennant or flag since
> it has been demonstrated by many people to be more ground dependent
> (sometimes needing added ground radials).  Under certain conditions the
> K9AY should be identical to a Flag or Pennant but since ground radials have
> been shown to drastically impact the K9AY performance depending on the
> ground conditions this sure does not sound like this is always the case.
>
> I won't debate the SAL (Shared Apex Loop), other than to say from a
> construction standpoint it's definitely not the same as the K9AY or other
> EWE type antenna (Flag, Pennants, etc.), and modeling the SAL definitely
> yields a different pattern than a single pennant or flag when used in the
> "in line direction" but as you said modeling does not always reflect
> reality (your example was EZNEC not doing a good job with loops close to
> ground).  I have never used an SAL and therefore my statements are only
> based on what modeling yields, but to say the SAL is the same as a K9AY is
> hard to believe regardless if it performs better or worse than the K9AY,
> just based on the design.
>
> P.S. I believe there is a newer version of the SAL in which the two
> halves of the SAL share the same center vertical conductor, but again I'm
> not making any claims about the design.  Also note I'm using 4NEC2 for my
> modeling, not that it necessarily impacts my above statements.
>
> 73,
> Don (wd8dsb)
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 10:27 PM Jose_Carlos  wrote:
>
>> Don
>>
>> I’m afraid your information is not accurate, SAL is the same as a K9AY,
>> the two wires close to each other can be removed because they cancel each
>> other. The remain wires works like two vertical in phase, as the same in
>> any flag, loaded loop or pennant. The cardioid pattern is the same.
>>
>> The is no implementation of two SAL in phase because it does not work,
>> the phasing system is too complex to phase two SAL.
>>
>> If you know the people that actually tested the antenna, you know that
>> the claimed RDF was never achieved.
>>
>> The RDF of the K9AY is the same of the SAL, the EZENEC does a horrible
>> job with loops close to the ground.
>>
>> Saying that, both antennas are excellent receiver antennas if you don’t
>> have anything else.
>>
>> 73’s
>> JC
>> N4IS
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows
>>
>> From: Don Kirk
>> Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 7:19 PM
>> To: W0MU Mike Fatchett
>> Cc: topband
>> Subject: Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions
>>
>> Hi Mike and gang,
>>
>> It has been a long time since I looked at the SAL in which I modeled it
>> with the help of the designer of the SAL (KB7GF).  The SAL is actually
>> different than the K9AY and other EWE types of RX antennas which have a
>> typical RDF value of around 7.8 because the SAL (Shared Apex Loop) antenna
>> actively uses two of its loops which are "in line" with each other for
>> what
>> you might call the primary direction (direction in line with the loops),
>> and these two phased loops can provide an RDF value of around 9.2
>> depending
>> on the coupler locations.  For the off axis directions (45 degrees to the
>> loops) I believe all 4 loops of the SAL are active (phased together) and
>> they provide a pattern more like what you would expect from the K9AY or
>> other EWEs with an RDF of approximately 7.8.  Therefore in the 4 primary
>> directions of the SAL the SAL definitely has a better RDF than the K9AY or
>> other types of EWE receiving antennas.
>>
>> When used "in line" the RDF of the SAL is around 9.2 as mentioned above
>> which is similar to what you would obtain using two phased verticals with
>> 1/8 wavelength spacing.
>>
>> Just FYI,
>> Don (wd8dsb)
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:43 PM W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:
>>
>> > The SAL is pretty much just an AY loop with a more functional
>> > controller?  I have had moderate success with a pe

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Don Kirk]

Hi Jose,

To keep things simple, I say the K9AY is not like a pennant or flag since
it has been demonstrated by many people to be more ground dependent
(sometimes needing added ground radials).  Under certain conditions the
K9AY should be identical to a Flag or Pennant but since ground radials have
been shown to drastically impact the K9AY performance depending on the
ground conditions this sure does not sound like this is always the case.

I won't debate the SAL (Shared Apex Loop), other than to say from a
construction standpoint it's definitely not the same as the K9AY or other
EWE type antenna (Flag, Pennants, etc.), and modeling the SAL definitely
yields a different pattern than a single pennant or flag when used in the
"in line direction" but as you said modeling does not always reflect
reality (your example was EZNEC not doing a good job with loops close to
ground).  I have never used an SAL and therefore my statements are only
based on what modeling yields, but to say the SAL is the same as a K9AY is
hard to believe regardless if it performs better or worse than the K9AY,
just based on the design.

P.S. I believe there is a newer version of the SAL in which the two
halves of the SAL share the same center vertical conductor, but again I'm
not making any claims about the design.  Also note I'm using 4NEC2 for my
modeling, not that it necessarily impacts my above statements.

73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 10:27 PM Jose_Carlos  wrote:

> Don
>
> I’m afraid your information is not accurate, SAL is the same as a K9AY,
> the two wires close to each other can be removed because they cancel each
> other. The remain wires works like two vertical in phase, as the same in
> any flag, loaded loop or pennant. The cardioid pattern is the same.
>
> The is no implementation of two SAL in phase because it does not work, the
> phasing system is too complex to phase two SAL.
>
> If you know the people that actually tested the antenna, you know that the
> claimed RDF was never achieved.
>
> The RDF of the K9AY is the same of the SAL, the EZENEC does a horrible job
> with loops close to the ground.
>
> Saying that, both antennas are excellent receiver antennas if you don’t
> have anything else.
>
> 73’s
> JC
> N4IS
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows
>
> From: Don Kirk
> Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 7:19 PM
> To: W0MU Mike Fatchett
> Cc: topband
> Subject: Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions
>
> Hi Mike and gang,
>
> It has been a long time since I looked at the SAL in which I modeled it
> with the help of the designer of the SAL (KB7GF).  The SAL is actually
> different than the K9AY and other EWE types of RX antennas which have a
> typical RDF value of around 7.8 because the SAL (Shared Apex Loop) antenna
> actively uses two of its loops which are "in line" with each other for what
> you might call the primary direction (direction in line with the loops),
> and these two phased loops can provide an RDF value of around 9.2 depending
> on the coupler locations.  For the off axis directions (45 degrees to the
> loops) I believe all 4 loops of the SAL are active (phased together) and
> they provide a pattern more like what you would expect from the K9AY or
> other EWEs with an RDF of approximately 7.8.  Therefore in the 4 primary
> directions of the SAL the SAL definitely has a better RDF than the K9AY or
> other types of EWE receiving antennas.
>
> When used "in line" the RDF of the SAL is around 9.2 as mentioned above
> which is similar to what you would obtain using two phased verticals with
> 1/8 wavelength spacing.
>
> Just FYI,
> Don (wd8dsb)
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:43 PM W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:
>
> > The SAL is pretty much just an AY loop with a more functional
> > controller?  I have had moderate success with a pennant at V31 as well.
> >
> > W0MU
> >
> > On 1/5/2022 7:23 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> > > I tried an AY loop decades ago, without the Array Solutions adjustable
> > > termination controller, and I do not remember it being that useful for
> > RX.
> > > The antenna is ground dependant so perhaps it works better for some
> than
> > > others. Even a short Beverage may be a better choice. From my P40A
> > station I
> > > used a Pennant with decent results. It was inexpensive to build and not
> > > ground dependant however it only covered one direction. The Array
> > Solutions
> > > Shared Apex Loop Array has great reviews and may be worth considering,
> > Pete.
> > >
> > > John KK9A
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> > >
> > > I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions contro

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Jose_Carlos]

Don

I’m afraid your information is not accurate, SAL is the same as a K9AY, the two 
wires close to each other can be removed because they cancel each other. The 
remain wires works like two vertical in phase, as the same in any flag, loaded 
loop or pennant. The cardioid pattern is the same.

The is no implementation of two SAL in phase because it does not work, the 
phasing system is too complex to phase two SAL.

If you know the people that actually tested the antenna, you know that the 
claimed RDF was never achieved.

The RDF of the K9AY is the same of the SAL, the EZENEC does a horrible job with 
loops close to the ground.

Saying that, both antennas are excellent receiver antennas if you don’t have 
anything else.

73’s
JC
N4IS

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Don Kirk
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 7:19 PM
To: W0MU Mike Fatchett
Cc: topband
Subject: Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

Hi Mike and gang,

It has been a long time since I looked at the SAL in which I modeled it
with the help of the designer of the SAL (KB7GF).  The SAL is actually
different than the K9AY and other EWE types of RX antennas which have a
typical RDF value of around 7.8 because the SAL (Shared Apex Loop) antenna
actively uses two of its loops which are "in line" with each other for what
you might call the primary direction (direction in line with the loops),
and these two phased loops can provide an RDF value of around 9.2 depending
on the coupler locations.  For the off axis directions (45 degrees to the
loops) I believe all 4 loops of the SAL are active (phased together) and
they provide a pattern more like what you would expect from the K9AY or
other EWEs with an RDF of approximately 7.8.  Therefore in the 4 primary
directions of the SAL the SAL definitely has a better RDF than the K9AY or
other types of EWE receiving antennas.

When used "in line" the RDF of the SAL is around 9.2 as mentioned above
which is similar to what you would obtain using two phased verticals with
1/8 wavelength spacing.

Just FYI,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:43 PM W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:

> The SAL is pretty much just an AY loop with a more functional
> controller?  I have had moderate success with a pennant at V31 as well.
>
> W0MU
>
> On 1/5/2022 7:23 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> > I tried an AY loop decades ago, without the Array Solutions adjustable
> > termination controller, and I do not remember it being that useful for
> RX.
> > The antenna is ground dependant so perhaps it works better for some than
> > others. Even a short Beverage may be a better choice. From my P40A
> station I
> > used a Pennant with decent results. It was inexpensive to build and not
> > ground dependant however it only covered one direction. The Array
> Solutions
> > Shared Apex Loop Array has great reviews and may be worth considering,
> Pete.
> >
> > John KK9A
> >
> >
> >
> > Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> >
> > I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller),
> > and have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a
> > fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground
> > radials under each direction of the loop.
> >
> > The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast
> > stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the
> > same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise
> > is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but
> > signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem
> > about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.  The Termination
> > adjustment is working, to judge by the switching transients, but seems
> > to make little or no difference.
> >
> > How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a
> > "magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.
> >
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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_
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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Cecil acuff]

It is a different animal than the AY. I think it’s a good antenna but I have 
something unique at my QTH that seems to render RX antennas performance 
compromised. 

I’m moving to the country in a couple years on 30 or so acres and will be able 
to better optimize my station antennas.

Cecil
K5DL

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 6:19 PM, Don Kirk  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mike and gang,
> 
> It has been a long time since I looked at the SAL in which I modeled it
> with the help of the designer of the SAL (KB7GF).  The SAL is actually
> different than the K9AY and other EWE types of RX antennas which have a
> typical RDF value of around 7.8 because the SAL (Shared Apex Loop) antenna
> actively uses two of its loops which are "in line" with each other for what
> you might call the primary direction (direction in line with the loops),
> and these two phased loops can provide an RDF value of around 9.2 depending
> on the coupler locations.  For the off axis directions (45 degrees to the
> loops) I believe all 4 loops of the SAL are active (phased together) and
> they provide a pattern more like what you would expect from the K9AY or
> other EWEs with an RDF of approximately 7.8.  Therefore in the 4 primary
> directions of the SAL the SAL definitely has a better RDF than the K9AY or
> other types of EWE receiving antennas.
> 
> When used "in line" the RDF of the SAL is around 9.2 as mentioned above
> which is similar to what you would obtain using two phased verticals with
> 1/8 wavelength spacing.
> 
> Just FYI,
> Don (wd8dsb)
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:43 PM W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:
>> 
>> The SAL is pretty much just an AY loop with a more functional
>> controller?  I have had moderate success with a pennant at V31 as well.
>> 
>> W0MU
>> 
>>> On 1/5/2022 7:23 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
>>> I tried an AY loop decades ago, without the Array Solutions adjustable
>>> termination controller, and I do not remember it being that useful for
>> RX.
>>> The antenna is ground dependant so perhaps it works better for some than
>>> others. Even a short Beverage may be a better choice. From my P40A
>> station I
>>> used a Pennant with decent results. It was inexpensive to build and not
>>> ground dependant however it only covered one direction. The Array
>> Solutions
>>> Shared Apex Loop Array has great reviews and may be worth considering,
>> Pete.
>>> 
>>> John KK9A
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
>>> 
>>> I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller),
>>> and have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a
>>> fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground
>>> radials under each direction of the loop.
>>> 
>>> The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast
>>> stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the
>>> same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise
>>> is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but
>>> signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem
>>> about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.  The Termination
>>> adjustment is working, to judge by the switching transients, but seems
>>> to make little or no difference.
>>> 
>>> How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a
>>> "magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.
>>> 
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>> 
> _
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_
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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Don Kirk]

Hi Mike and gang,

It has been a long time since I looked at the SAL in which I modeled it
with the help of the designer of the SAL (KB7GF).  The SAL is actually
different than the K9AY and other EWE types of RX antennas which have a
typical RDF value of around 7.8 because the SAL (Shared Apex Loop) antenna
actively uses two of its loops which are "in line" with each other for what
you might call the primary direction (direction in line with the loops),
and these two phased loops can provide an RDF value of around 9.2 depending
on the coupler locations.  For the off axis directions (45 degrees to the
loops) I believe all 4 loops of the SAL are active (phased together) and
they provide a pattern more like what you would expect from the K9AY or
other EWEs with an RDF of approximately 7.8.  Therefore in the 4 primary
directions of the SAL the SAL definitely has a better RDF than the K9AY or
other types of EWE receiving antennas.

When used "in line" the RDF of the SAL is around 9.2 as mentioned above
which is similar to what you would obtain using two phased verticals with
1/8 wavelength spacing.

Just FYI,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:43 PM W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:

> The SAL is pretty much just an AY loop with a more functional
> controller?  I have had moderate success with a pennant at V31 as well.
>
> W0MU
>
> On 1/5/2022 7:23 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> > I tried an AY loop decades ago, without the Array Solutions adjustable
> > termination controller, and I do not remember it being that useful for
> RX.
> > The antenna is ground dependant so perhaps it works better for some than
> > others. Even a short Beverage may be a better choice. From my P40A
> station I
> > used a Pennant with decent results. It was inexpensive to build and not
> > ground dependant however it only covered one direction. The Array
> Solutions
> > Shared Apex Loop Array has great reviews and may be worth considering,
> Pete.
> >
> > John KK9A
> >
> >
> >
> > Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> >
> > I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller),
> > and have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a
> > fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground
> > radials under each direction of the loop.
> >
> > The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast
> > stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the
> > same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise
> > is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but
> > signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem
> > about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.  The Termination
> > adjustment is working, to judge by the switching transients, but seems
> > to make little or no difference.
> >
> > How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a
> > "magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.
> >
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Jim Brown]

On 1/5/2022 6:23 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

I tried an AY loop decades ago, without the Array Solutions adjustable
termination controller, and I do not remember it being that useful for RX.
The antenna is ground dependant so perhaps it works better for some than
others. Even a short Beverage may be a better choice. From my P40A station I
used a Pennant with decent results. It was inexpensive to build and not
ground dependant however it only covered one direction. The Array Solutions
Shared Apex Loop Array has great reviews and may be worth considering, Pete.


Again, when thinking about any of these RX antennas it's worth studying 
slides  and recordings of W3LPL's several Dayton talks on the topic. One 
of its most useful info is how each type is or is not sensitive to 
surrounding objects/vegetation and other locally significant conditions 
like soil conductivity. Each type has its strengths and its Achilles heels.


73, Jim K9YC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

The SAL is pretty much just an AY loop with a more functional 
controller?  I have had moderate success with a pennant at V31 as well.


W0MU

On 1/5/2022 7:23 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

I tried an AY loop decades ago, without the Array Solutions adjustable
termination controller, and I do not remember it being that useful for RX.
The antenna is ground dependant so perhaps it works better for some than
others. Even a short Beverage may be a better choice. From my P40A station I
used a Pennant with decent results. It was inexpensive to build and not
ground dependant however it only covered one direction. The Array Solutions
Shared Apex Loop Array has great reviews and may be worth considering, Pete.

John KK9A


  
Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:


I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller),
and have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a
fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground
radials under each direction of the loop.

The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast
stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the
same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise
is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but
signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem
about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.  The Termination
adjustment is working, to judge by the switching transients, but seems
to make little or no difference.

How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a
"magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.


_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Cecil acuff]

I tried the Array Solutions SAL30 and didn’t find it an improvement. I hoped it 
would be an improvement. It might just be my lot. 

It has had some technical improvement since I owned mine but the video is not 
typical. At least not at my site.

Cecil K5DL

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 5, 2022, at 8:23 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> 
> I tried an AY loop decades ago, without the Array Solutions adjustable
> termination controller, and I do not remember it being that useful for RX.
> The antenna is ground dependant so perhaps it works better for some than
> others. Even a short Beverage may be a better choice. From my P40A station I
> used a Pennant with decent results. It was inexpensive to build and not
> ground dependant however it only covered one direction. The Array Solutions
> Shared Apex Loop Array has great reviews and may be worth considering, Pete.
> 
> John KK9A 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> 
> I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller), 
> and have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a 
> fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground 
> radials under each direction of the loop.
> 
> The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast 
> stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the 
> same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise 
> is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but 
> signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem 
> about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.  The Termination 
> adjustment is working, to judge by the switching transients, but seems 
> to make little or no difference.
> 
> How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a 
> "magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.
> 
> -- 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
> web server at.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[john]

I tried an AY loop decades ago, without the Array Solutions adjustable
termination controller, and I do not remember it being that useful for RX.
The antenna is ground dependant so perhaps it works better for some than
others. Even a short Beverage may be a better choice. From my P40A station I
used a Pennant with decent results. It was inexpensive to build and not
ground dependant however it only covered one direction. The Array Solutions
Shared Apex Loop Array has great reviews and may be worth considering, Pete.

John KK9A 


 
Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:

I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller), 
and have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a 
fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground 
radials under each direction of the loop.

The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast 
stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the 
same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise 
is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but 
signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem 
about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.  The Termination 
adjustment is working, to judge by the switching transients, but seems 
to make little or no difference.

How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a 
"magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.

-- 
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Mike Waters]

Hi Pete,

You've received good advice here.
Do you have a rotator on your K9AY loop? It has a deep null in one
direction, which null should be aimed at your low-angle QRN or QRM source.

Disclaimer: I never used one (since I have 580' Beverages). However, over
the years I have read many, many testimonials in favor of it.

73, Mike
W0BTU

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 4:33 PM Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:

> No significant difference in most cases.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
> web server at.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
> On 1/3/2022 10:55 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
> > Which antenna can you more easily copy the station on?  I would hope
> > the loop.
> >
> > W0MU
> >
> > On 1/2/2022 12:24 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> >> On 1/2/2022 7:29 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> >>> The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast
> >>> stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on
> >>> the same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric
> >>> noise is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna,
> >>> but signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the
> >>> loop seem about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.
> >>
> >> Hi Pete,
> >>
> >> RX antennas don't make signals louder, but they improve the signal to
> >> noise ratio, making them easier to copy -- IF your noise(s) is/are
> >> not in the same direction as the signal.
> >>
> >> 73, Jim K9YC
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

No significant difference in most cases.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 1/3/2022 10:55 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
Which antenna can you more easily copy the station on?  I would hope 
the loop.


W0MU

On 1/2/2022 12:24 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 1/2/2022 7:29 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast 
stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on 
the same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric 
noise is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, 
but signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the 
loop seem about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.


Hi Pete,

RX antennas don't make signals louder, but they improve the signal to 
noise ratio, making them easier to copy -- IF your noise(s) is/are 
not in the same direction as the signal.


73, Jim K9YC
_
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Reflector

_
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Reflector

_
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Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Roger Kennedy]

Interesting the results people mention . . . 

The net noise reduction on my homebrew 6ft multi-turn resonant loop up in
the loft (after adding a preamp to bring signals up to the same level as my
Tx antenna) is also about 6dB.

Although that doesn't sound a lot, of course it is HALFING the background
noise . . . and makes all the difference between copying a weak station and
not.

It's also interesting having a vertically-polarised Rx antenna, and noting
any change in signals when switching between that and my Tx antenna, which
is a horizontal dipole.

There's no way I could put up a K9AY, let alone a Beverage . . . so I'm
pleased my Loop up in the loft seems pretty good.

It's very cheap to make, so if anyone wants to build one - the details are
here:  http://rogerkennedy.co.uk/g3yro/160mrxloop.htm

73 Roger G3YRO


_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

Which antenna can you more easily copy the station on?  I would hope the 
loop.


W0MU

On 1/2/2022 12:24 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 1/2/2022 7:29 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast 
stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on 
the same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric 
noise is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, 
but signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop 
seem about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.


Hi Pete,

RX antennas don't make signals louder, but they improve the signal to 
noise ratio, making them easier to copy -- IF your noise(s) is/are not 
in the same direction as the signal.


73, Jim K9YC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Jim Brown]

On 1/2/2022 7:29 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast 
stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the 
same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise 
is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but 
signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem 
about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.


Hi Pete,

RX antennas don't make signals louder, but they improve the signal to 
noise ratio, making them easier to copy -- IF your noise(s) is/are not 
in the same direction as the signal.


73, Jim K9YC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Mike Furrey]

 I used the K9AY loop on a 60' by 90' suburban lot near Houston. My transmit 
antenna was an inverted L between two very tall pine trees. and one side of the 
AY loop 
was 6' from the single elevated radial of the inverted L. I had to detune the L 
because too much noise was radiated to the loop and I had to replace the 
resistors with 5 watt
ratings to keep from burning them up on transmit. 
The AY loop was the difference between working stations or not working 
stations. I did orient it for nulling noise and not peaking
stations since it does have a fairly broad pattern. 

When I live near Sewannee, TN on top of a sandstone plateau, my first install 
of the AY loop did not work. Laying down eight 25' radials
brought it to life. I did lay out a 600' beverage and noted a quite a 
difference between the two antennas. 

At times the noise reduction is not much but it may be enough for working a 
weak station for a new one.

I will install the AY loop at my WTX QTH.

73, Mike WA5POK
 On Sunday, January 2, 2022, 10:29:42 AM EST, Pete Smith N4ZR 
 wrote:  
 
 I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller), 
and have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a 
fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground 
radials under each direction of the loop.

The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast 
stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the 
same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise 
is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but 
signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem 
about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.  The Termination 
adjustment is working, to judge by the switching transients, but seems 
to make little or no difference.

How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a 
"magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.

-- 
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
  
_
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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Cecil acuff]

I will add that my termination resistance adjustment did work well. It would 
show significant changes in the depth of nulls.

Cecil

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 2, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:
> 
> I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller), and 
> have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a 
> fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground 
> radials under each direction of the loop.
> 
> The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast stations 
> at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the same frequency 
> so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise is 1-2 S units more 
> on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but signal strengths of stations 
> in the favored direction of the loop seem about the same or a bit lower than 
> the inverted L.  The Termination adjustment is working, to judge by the 
> switching transients, but seems to make little or no difference.
> 
> How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a 
> "magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.
> 
> -- 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
> web server at.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_
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Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

Thanks, Cecil.  I may have to look into one of those multi-element 
solutions.


73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 1/2/2022 11:01 AM, Cecil acuff wrote:

Hi Pete,

I built one several years back and my results were much like you describe.

I have tried several different RX antennas and for some reason on this lot none 
have heard significantly better than my Inverted L.

All have been separated from the L by 250’.

I’ve also had the Array Solutions SAL-30 and a couple BOG installations to no 
avail.  Currently have a DX Engineering loop @ 30’ and it’s a marginal 
improvement at times.

No longer have the L up as I’m testing a half sloper for 160, 80 and 40/30.

Not sure what I’m missing because these things work for other folks.

My noise level here is fairly low..S1-2 on 160 at night but I have little luck 
hearing Europe.

I’ve used the Hi-Z 4 element at our club station during 160 contests and it 
works great!  Night and day difference between RX antenna and listening on TX 
antenna. Can’t hear a thing on TX antenna but the world opens up when using the 
RX antenna.

Can’t duplicate that at home. Have no room for the HI-Z at home either.

I’m on a 150’ x 450’ lot with a 60’ tower.

Hope you find the magic fix.

Cecil
K5DL



Sent from my iPad


On Jan 2, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:

I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller), and 
have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a fiberglass 
pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground radials under 
each direction of the loop.

The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast stations at 
the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the same frequency so 
that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise is 1-2 S units more on my 
inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but signal strengths of stations in the 
favored direction of the loop seem about the same or a bit lower than the 
inverted L.  The Termination adjustment is working, to judge by the switching 
transients, but seems to make little or no difference.

How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a "magic 
bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.

--
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.
_
Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband  - Topband Reflector

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Cecil acuff]

Hi Pete,

I built one several years back and my results were much like you describe.

I have tried several different RX antennas and for some reason on this lot none 
have heard significantly better than my Inverted L. 

All have been separated from the L by 250’.

I’ve also had the Array Solutions SAL-30 and a couple BOG installations to no 
avail.  Currently have a DX Engineering loop @ 30’ and it’s a marginal 
improvement at times.

No longer have the L up as I’m testing a half sloper for 160, 80 and 40/30. 

Not sure what I’m missing because these things work for other folks. 

My noise level here is fairly low..S1-2 on 160 at night but I have little luck 
hearing Europe.

I’ve used the Hi-Z 4 element at our club station during 160 contests and it 
works great!  Night and day difference between RX antenna and listening on TX 
antenna. Can’t hear a thing on TX antenna but the world opens up when using the 
RX antenna. 

Can’t duplicate that at home. Have no room for the HI-Z at home either. 

I’m on a 150’ x 450’ lot with a 60’ tower.

Hope you find the magic fix.

Cecil
K5DL



Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 2, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR  wrote:
> 
> I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller), and 
> have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a 
> fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground 
> radials under each direction of the loop.
> 
> The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast stations 
> at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the same frequency 
> so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise is 1-2 S units more 
> on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but signal strengths of stations 
> in the favored direction of the loop seem about the same or a bit lower than 
> the inverted L.  The Termination adjustment is working, to judge by the 
> switching transients, but seems to make little or no difference.
> 
> How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a 
> "magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.
> 
> -- 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
> web server at.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: K9AY Loop Questions

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

I recently installed a K9AY loop (with the Array Solutions controller), 
and have a couple of questions.  Installation is pretty standard, with a 
fiberglass pole at the center, ground rod at its base, and on the ground 
radials under each direction of the loop.


The antenna is directional, as demonstrated by tuning in broadcast 
stations at the high end of the AM band and separating stations on the 
same frequency so that I can hear one or the other.  Atmospheric noise 
is 1-2 S units more on my inverted L than on the K9AY antenna, but 
signal strengths of stations in the favored direction of the loop seem 
about the same or a bit lower than the inverted L.  The Termination 
adjustment is working, to judge by the switching transients, but seems 
to make little or no difference.


How do these results compare with others' experience?  I didn't expect a 
"magic bullet", but the K9AY loop seems a little bit underwhelming.


--
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: K9AY loop questions

[Dan Bookwalter]

As soon as i have th radials under the Inv-L i was considering constructing a 
K9AY rcv loop system. The best/easiest place to put it is actually jsut out 
side the shack , but , I am wondering if the 2 story house (about 30 ft away 
from the loop)  between the loop and basically EU will have much effect on the 
loop ? I can put it out on the open but , that will be a little more difficult.

Also , I have a large supply of RG6 CATV feedline which I believe is 75 Ohm ? 
what modifications do I need to make to use it rather than a 50 Ohm feedline...

Thanks

Dan N8DCJ
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK

Re: Topband: K9AY loop questions

[Bill Wichers]

I think most people are actually building their K9AY loops to use 75 ohm coax 
these days as that is the standard receive coax. The only change you need to 
make is the winding of the isolation/matching transformer at the loop. Many 
will even tell you that it's not all that critical even there. If you're 
sending DC power through the coax that part won't change for 50 or 75 ohm coax.

On my system, I would the transformer at the loop to match to a 75 ohm cable. 
Inside, I have a preamp with some switchable attenuators that I built and it is 
matched to the 75 ohm coax on the input (via a matching transformer wound on a 
small binocular core), the output is 50 ohms for the radio. Many will tell you 
the 75/50 ohm matching on this end isn't all that critical either.

Probably the easiest way to go is to wind the transformers to use 75 ohm 
feedline if you're making them yourself, and if you're using premade units you 
can probably get buy without worrying about the slight mismatch.

  -Bill


 As soon as i have th radials under the Inv-L i was considering
 constructing a K9AY rcv loop system. The best/easiest place to put it is
 actually jsut out side the shack , but , I am wondering if the 2 story
 house (about 30 ft away from the loop)  between the loop and basically EU
 will have much effect on the loop ? I can put it out on the open but ,
 that will be a little more difficult.
 
 Also , I have a large supply of RG6 CATV feedline which I believe is 75
 Ohm ? what modifications do I need to make to use it rather than a 50 Ohm
 feedline...
 
 Thanks
 
 Dan N8DCJ
 ___
 UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK