Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it - final status

[bruce whitney via Topband]

Just a FYI that comes from 40 years in the utility business.
A frequent  (I want to say  most common but don't have any data to prove it) 
problem is loose split bolt connectors connecting the drop to the meter to the 
overhead service triplex.
There are probably several resons for this - but regardless, many investigators 
don't even start looking for anything else till those get tightened.
 



On Tue, 11/3/15, Jim Murray via Topband <topband@contesting.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it - final status
 To: "TopBand List" <topband@contesting.com>
 Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2015, 10:06 PM
 
 Electricians worked today on the
 house grounding the entrance panel and checking out all of
 the wiring.  Now, everything is grounded to the panel.
  They ran a line from the grounding directly to the ham
 room ground bus, checked all the outlets for any reverse
 etc.. They talked about putting a separate panel in the ham
 room but I opted out for now. The interesting part of this
 is that the strong hash noise I reported earlier is gone.
  I have no idea why.  When I reported the noise to the
 power company I did mention what I had found on the lines
 and It is possible the linemen stopped by when we were not
 here and did something, don't know at this time but have not
 heard back from the power company.The only other possibility
 is that one of the things the electricians messed with
 stopped the noise.  I suppose it could be something as
 simple as tightening the wiring in the box etc.. Cost was
 $380. but worth the peace of mind and possibly saved my
 operating.Regards,Jim/k2hn
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it - final status

[Mike Waters]

Really! The low voltage, high current connections, whodathoughtit?

Lately, when my central AC kicks on, the lights dim. I was going to start
by measuring the voltage drop in the breaker panel, but perhaps the issue
is those outdoor split-bolt connectors. Thanks for sharing this.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:01 AM, bruce whitney via Topband <
topband@contesting.com> wrote:

> Just a FYI that comes from 40 years in the utility business.
> A frequent  (I want to say  most common but don't have any data to prove
> it) problem is loose split bolt connectors connecting the drop to the meter
> to the overhead service triplex.
> There are probably several resons for this - but regardless, many
> investigators don't even start looking for anything else till those get
> tightened.
>
_
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it - final status

[Jim Murray via Topband]

Electricians worked today on the house grounding the entrance panel and 
checking out all of the wiring.  Now, everything is grounded to the panel.  
They ran a line from the grounding directly to the ham room ground bus, checked 
all the outlets for any reverse etc.. They talked about putting a separate 
panel in the ham room but I opted out for now. The interesting part of this is 
that the strong hash noise I reported earlier is gone.  I have no idea why.  
When I reported the noise to the power company I did mention what I had found 
on the lines and It is possible the linemen stopped by when we were not here 
and did something, don't know at this time but have not heard back from the 
power company.The only other possibility is that one of the things the 
electricians messed with stopped the noise.  I suppose it could be something as 
simple as tightening the wiring in the box etc.. Cost was $380. but worth the 
peace of mind and possibly saved my operating.Regards,Jim/k2hn
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it - final status

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,11/3/2015 7:06 PM, Jim Murray via Topband wrote:

Electricians worked today on the house grounding the entrance panel and 
checking out all of the wiring.  Now, everything is grounded to the panel.  
They ran a line from the grounding directly to the ham room ground bus, checked 
all the outlets for any reverse etc.. They talked about putting a separate 
panel in the ham room but I opted out for now. The interesting part of this is 
that the strong hash noise I reported earlier is gone.


Remember that W8JI and I both told you to fix that bonding FIRST. :)

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it (negative fuse)

[Tom W8JI]

My Icom radios come with the power cord fused for both negative and
positive.  From what you say, I should remove the negative fuse if I 
install

the radios in a vehicle.  Now when the radios are at the fixed station the
same power cord is used (both lines fused), I understand that the negative
line fuse should also be removed.



The standard from UK is well worded:

"4.6.4. Negative Feed Connection
In the case of negative earth return vehicles, the negative power line 
should not be fused. It should be connected to the vehicle body as close as 
practical to the point at which the battery-to-body connection is made. Do 
not connect the negative power line directly to the battery.
For heavy commercial vehicles (>7.5Tonne GVW) only, and those vehicles with 
tilting cabs where the cab may be isolated from the chassis by rubber 
mountings, a ground point is provided by the vehicle manufacturer within the 
cab to provide battery to cab grounding. Generally this is located within 
the main fuse box. It is recommended that this point be used for 
installations in this instance.  With certain equipment it may be necessary 
to connect the negative supply line to a local earth point. In this case an 
existing vehicle earth point must be used."


I just went through terrible problems with an aftermarket EFI system that 
insisted on a battery negative connection. It never worked properly until I 
used the vehicle chassis as the negative.


I regret now, after years of experience with problems, ever following the US 
and Japanese standard of using a battery negative pole or terminal, and not 
the vehicle chassis.  I still, because the warnings to use the battery 
negative were so strong in an expensive EFI system, I followed it (knowing 
better) and had a ground loop noise problem right away.


I've damaged radios and accessory equipment several times over the years, 
and the ground loop also makes common mode noise and audio hum and noise 
problems worse. I used to buy into the common advice, because I never really 
thought about it. No negative fuse holder for me, and no negative battery 
post connections for me. My three wire plug shack power supplies have all 
been modified now, and no longer have a ground loop from mains or station 
ground to the negative power lead.


The UK standards have it correct.

73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Doug Renwick]

My Icom radios come with the power cord fused for both negative and
positive.  From what you say, I should remove the negative fuse if I install
the radios in a vehicle.  Now when the radios are at the fixed station the
same power cord is used (both lines fused), I understand that the negative
line fuse should also be removed.

Doug

I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could.

-Original Message-

Any good connection to the chassis anywhere on a unibody vehicle is far 
better than a connection to a battery negative. Motorola is smart enough to 
tell installers to ground to the chassis, not the battery. In the UK the 
directive is to use the chassis or a manufacturer supplied terminal, and it 
specifically prohibits connecting to the battery negative pole.

The negative fuse is just foolishness. If it opens, all the radio current 
goes through small wiring. If the fuse opens, there goes the radio or 
something connected to the radio via a port. All of the radio current will 
go through some small wire.

My shop bench radio has an open foil on the CW key line and the mic because 
of a fuse holder failure, and that isn't the first radio that has that 
happen.   :)

The entire problem centers around use of the battery pole or battery 
connector as a source, and this carries over into our station desks. There 
is a ground loop similar to that in a car created between the power line 
ground, the power supply case, the negative lead, and the radio chassis back

to ground. As in the car, if this stuff was built or wired correctly, the 
12V bus would only be grounded at one point and there would be no negative 
fuse.

In our houses, many of the problems blamed on RF feedback are actually 
ground loops caused by grounded cabinets common to negatives and voltage 
drops on negative leads.

At least some places in Europe got their together and banned battery 
negative connections because of the hazards.

73 Tom 



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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Brad Rehm]

Tom,

Way back in the '90s, when I served on the SAE automotive RF immunity and
emissions (EMI & EMR) committees, questions about why we have negative-lead
fuses in ham radio gear came up from time to time.  (Many of us on the
committees were hams.)  The reason we were given is that there was a
scenario in which the negative battery lead ground failed, and the radio
negative became the best path to ground for the starter motor, particularly
if the radio negative was screwed to the negative battery post.  In
retrospect, this seems far-fetched, but the OEMs don't like to hear stories
about electrical fires in their vehicles, so somehow, this was communicated
to the radio manufacturers, and negative-lead fuses became the rule.

This is precisely the kind of problem that the single-point ground rule
would solve, but following it can be tough.  Batteries are often grounded
to a fender liner or the bulkhead, which makes one of these the ground
return point for the vehicle electrical hardware.  The starter motor is
bolted to the engine, which makes it the common for the high-current
devices in the vehicle.  Where to put the radio ground?  Certainly not to
the engine block, so...

And BTW, think about the coil-on-plug ignition systems most vehicles have
now.  The top of the primary of the coil goes to the battery through a long
loop around the engine and to the battery or the Engine Control Module.
The bottom ends are pulled to ground to fire the plugs by transistors in
the ECM.  How does the secondary find ground?  I'm told that newer vehicles
ground the secondary to the engine block, but some older ones simply
floated the secondary and essentially let it find ground through the
capacitance of the wiring harness.  Either scenario makes it tough to fight
ignition noise.

Brad  KV5V

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Tom W8JI  wrote:

> Yes, or where other premises grounds are tied together. Systems like
>> Telco, CATV, satellite, even lightning rods if there are any, building
>> steel if there is any.
>>
>>
> It doesn't matter where in the world we live, electrons all follow the
> same physical laws.
> There are three things that should apply to advice:
>
> 1.) What really works and actually is a good thing to do
> 2.) What is a bad thing to do
> 3.) What still meets but safely works around local codes
>
> The USA and Japan does some really stupid things with 12V radio systems,
> like negative lead fuses and power sources and radios with negative 12V
> rails tied to ground at both ends.
>
> The UK is smarter on that, with requirements a mobile negative NEVER go to
> a battery negative post and never have a fuse. This should, through common
> sense, apply to a 12V supply on a desk 12V powered Ham radio. We are,
> however, locked in a loop of doing things the wrong way because that is how
> we do it.
>
> The USA is good with the use of a common entrance point ground for
> everything, where all utilities like CATV, Telco, safety, and power have
> one single common "entrance" ground point, although that is sometimes
> missed. The ground rod means very little compared to the importance of the
> common bonding.
>
> Our local fire station caught fire from a lighting strike because the
> fools they hired to do a wireless internet system just run cables in
> willy-nilly through plastic pipe because it "meets code". Occasionally they
> will have problems at different county buildings in storms because they
> have utter nonsense in the wiring, but it "meets code".  So far they have
> had a fire in a fire station (and destroyed much of the computer gear),
> lost the tag office, and lost things at the sheriff's dispatch system.
>
> But the system that will keep burning up, and maybe eventually even kill
> someone, does meet code.  That is what matters.   :)
>
> There is little that can ever be bad about using a single point ground,
> but adding a second path to ground (which no longer makes it single point)
> can quickly become a disaster.
>
> It doesn't matter if we are in London or LA, electrons and grounds work
> the same way. The issue we face is making sure it works correctly, while
> not violating codes. Meeting codes is NOT a cure, and can cause a problem.
>
> 73 Tom
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Tom W8JI]

Way back in the '90s, when I served on the SAE automotive RF immunity and
emissions (EMI & EMR) committees, questions about why we have 
negative-lead

fuses in ham radio gear came up from time to time.  (Many of us on the
committees were hams.)  The reason we were given is that there was a
scenario in which the negative battery lead ground failed, and the radio
negative became the best path to ground for the starter motor, 
particularly

if the radio negative was screwed to the negative battery post.  In
retrospect, this seems far-fetched, but the OEMs don't like to hear 
stories
about electrical fires in their vehicles, so somehow, this was 
communicated

to the radio manufacturers, and negative-lead fuses became the rule.



Any good connection to the chassis anywhere on a unibody vehicle is far 
better than a connection to a battery negative. Motorola is smart enough to 
tell installers to ground to the chassis, not the battery. In the UK the 
directive is to use the chassis or a manufacturer supplied terminal, and it 
specifically prohibits connecting to the battery negative pole.


The negative fuse is just foolishness. If it opens, all the radio current 
goes through small wiring. If the fuse opens, there goes the radio or 
something connected to the radio via a port. All of the radio current will 
go through some small wire.


My shop bench radio has an open foil on the CW key line and the mic because 
of a fuse holder failure, and that isn't the first radio that has that 
happen.   :)


The entire problem centers around use of the battery pole or battery 
connector as a source, and this carries over into our station desks. There 
is a ground loop similar to that in a car created between the power line 
ground, the power supply case, the negative lead, and the radio chassis back 
to ground. As in the car, if this stuff was built or wired correctly, the 
12V bus would only be grounded at one point and there would be no negative 
fuse.


In our houses, many of the problems blamed on RF feedback are actually 
ground loops caused by grounded cabinets common to negatives and voltage 
drops on negative leads.


At least some places in Europe got their together and banned battery 
negative connections because of the hazards.


73 Tom 


_
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Tom W8JI]

Yes, or where other premises grounds are tied together. Systems like 
Telco, CATV, satellite, even lightning rods if there are any, building 
steel if there is any.




It doesn't matter where in the world we live, electrons all follow the same 
physical laws.

There are three things that should apply to advice:

1.) What really works and actually is a good thing to do
2.) What is a bad thing to do
3.) What still meets but safely works around local codes

The USA and Japan does some really stupid things with 12V radio systems, 
like negative lead fuses and power sources and radios with negative 12V 
rails tied to ground at both ends.


The UK is smarter on that, with requirements a mobile negative NEVER go to a 
battery negative post and never have a fuse. This should, through common 
sense, apply to a 12V supply on a desk 12V powered Ham radio. We are, 
however, locked in a loop of doing things the wrong way because that is how 
we do it.


The USA is good with the use of a common entrance point ground for 
everything, where all utilities like CATV, Telco, safety, and power have one 
single common "entrance" ground point, although that is sometimes missed. 
The ground rod means very little compared to the importance of the common 
bonding.


Our local fire station caught fire from a lighting strike because the fools 
they hired to do a wireless internet system just run cables in willy-nilly 
through plastic pipe because it "meets code". Occasionally they will have 
problems at different county buildings in storms because they have utter 
nonsense in the wiring, but it "meets code".  So far they have had a fire in 
a fire station (and destroyed much of the computer gear), lost the tag 
office, and lost things at the sheriff's dispatch system.


But the system that will keep burning up, and maybe eventually even kill 
someone, does meet code.  That is what matters.   :)


There is little that can ever be bad about using a single point ground, but 
adding a second path to ground (which no longer makes it single point) can 
quickly become a disaster.


It doesn't matter if we are in London or LA, electrons and grounds work the 
same way. The issue we face is making sure it works correctly, while not 
violating codes. Meeting codes is NOT a cure, and can cause a problem.


73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dan Edward Dba East edwards]

WOW, keith!  that's plenty of 'excitement'..
thanks to all, for advice and recommendations.  my house was built in '94, but 
outside the city limits, where 'code' gets a little sloppythough still in 
an HOA / CCR subdivision...there is PLENTY of man-made crud to listen to, and 
I'd just like to get rid of as much as possible, at least on my property...
special thanks to K9YC for another comprehensive reference...
have we beaten this to death, Tree?
73, w5xz, dan
 


 On Friday, October 30, 2015 3:04 PM, Keith Jillings (G3OIT) 
 wrote:
   

 On 30/10/2015 19:49, Art Snapper wrote:

> At the risk of sounding redundant, be very careful when messing around with
> the bonding/grounding of the electrical panel.
> Over the years I have seen significant current on these circuits due to a
> wiring fault at the pole or on the drop to the house.

Indeed!  We used to own a cottage half way up a mountain in North 
Wales.  The incoming "earth" wire from the pole was at something like 
120 volts above ground (nominal voltage is 230).  We found out when my 
wife was cleaning the porch floor, standing outside the front door, and 
got a shock through the mop.

We thought we had a separate earth to a spike in the ground (we did, but 
it wasn't properly connected).  I poked that with an insulated 
screwdriver, there was a flash and a loud bang, and the house earth 
dropped to zero potential.  The lights in a house down the road went out.

Never did hear any more about that.


Keith

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[mstangelo]

My water meter is outside and the feed to the house is via plastic pipe.

My electrical panel ground is connected to the plumbing at the point closest to 
the electrical panel.

There is a piece of copper pipe soldered across the cold and hot water pipes 
near the water heater.

Mike N2MS

- Original Message -
From: Tim Shoppa <tsho...@gmail.com>
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:47:57 - (UTC)
Subject: Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

I assumed the "central point" Jim was referring to, was a central point for
the plumbing. For the electrical side, this is a no brainer, it has to be
the entrance panel.

I have observed in my neighborhood, that the plumbing is usually bonded to
ground just after the water meter. That seems like a "central point" to me.
The bonding wire can be very long if the electrical service panel is on a
different side of the house than the water main.

My county's codes also requires that there be some kind of jumper for
ground outside the water heater between the cold in pipe and hot out pipe.
I don't know if this is a safety requirement or they are trying to divert
electrolysis to prolong life of the water heater.

I think other counties have a requirement that there be a similar jumper
around the water meter or around the shutoff valves near the water meter.
The folklore I've heard with that, is that this was needed when the
electrical code was OK with using cold water pipe as an electrical ground.

Tim.

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,10/30/2015 11:47 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:

I assumed the "central point" Jim was referring to, was a central point for
the plumbing. For the electrical side, this is a no brainer, it has to be
the entrance panel.


Or to the combination of grounds that is bonded to the entry panel.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> My county's codes also requires that there be some kind of jumper for
> ground outside the water heater between the cold in pipe and hot out pipe.
> I don't know if this is a safety requirement or they are trying to divert
> electrolysis to prolong life of the water heater.
>

This is why the subject of this thread needs to be
checked/rectified/inspected through the eyes of a local licensed
electrician and local electrical inspectors, so that local additions to or
variations on NEC are in effect on one's own premises. The legal local code
is what will come to bear in case of fires, injuries, etc.

DIY on this particular subject is really not so good an idea. I do know of
a few DIYers that actually took the electrical licensing courses at the
local community college and got the license, which included the variations
for nearby counties. But they also had friends in building contracting for
a source of local wisdom.

Local wisdom like the stuff that the local electrical inspectors are hard
about. You take your chances in the process if you don't have experience
with the local jurisdiction.

So you have the NEC, possible additions for your State, possible additions
for your county, and possible additions for your local jurisdiction. Then
you have the inspectors.

Electrical advice via a 160 meter ham radio reflector from individuals
scattered all over the globe? Even individuals qualified in their
particular location. What could possibly go wrong  :>)

73, Guy K2AV
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dan Edward Dba East edwards]

ok...another thing i've wondered about...
every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet quite 
nearby..
should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
w5xz

 


 On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
 wrote:
   

 It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
copper pipe in a weather protected spot.

If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.

You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
spicket copper pipe and the power ground.

If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
>
>> all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
>> an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
>> entrance...should I tie it in too ??
>>
>
> NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _
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>


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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

No, that should be done at a central point in each premises, and only 
when the plumbing is metallic and conductive to the earth.


73, Jim

On Fri,10/30/2015 9:58 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:

ok...another thing i've wondered about...
every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet quite 
nearby..
should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
w5xz

  



  On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
 wrote:



  It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
copper pipe in a weather protected spot.

If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.

You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
spicket copper pipe and the power ground.

If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:


On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:


all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
entrance...should I tie it in too ??


NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Tim Shoppa]

I assumed the "central point" Jim was referring to, was a central point for
the plumbing. For the electrical side, this is a no brainer, it has to be
the entrance panel.

I have observed in my neighborhood, that the plumbing is usually bonded to
ground just after the water meter. That seems like a "central point" to me.
The bonding wire can be very long if the electrical service panel is on a
different side of the house than the water main.

My county's codes also requires that there be some kind of jumper for
ground outside the water heater between the cold in pipe and hot out pipe.
I don't know if this is a safety requirement or they are trying to divert
electrolysis to prolong life of the water heater.

I think other counties have a requirement that there be a similar jumper
around the water meter or around the shutoff valves near the water meter.
The folklore I've heard with that, is that this was needed when the
electrical code was OK with using cold water pipe as an electrical ground.

Tim.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards <
dan.n.edwa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> 'central point' being my main service breaker box?
> it's a good distance away from any plumbing...
>
>
>
>  On Friday, October 30, 2015 12:28 PM, Jim Brown <
> j...@audiosystemsgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>  No, that should be done at a central point in each premises, and only
> when the plumbing is metallic and conductive to the earth.
>
> 73, Jim
>
> On Fri,10/30/2015 9:58 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
> > ok...another thing i've wondered about...
> > every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet
> quite nearby..
> > should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
> > w5xz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <
> k2av@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >  It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
> > electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of
> the
> > slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
> > end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with
> the
> > copper pipe in a weather protected spot.
> >
> > If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who
> can
> > check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
> > where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.
> >
> > You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
> > spicket copper pipe and the power ground.
> >
> > If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.
> >
> > 73, Guy K2AV
> >
> > On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
> >>
> >>> all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i
> have
> >>> an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
> >>> entrance...should I tie it in too ??
> >>>
> >> NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.
> >>
> >> 73, Jim K9YC
> >> _
> >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >>
> >
>
> _
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>
>
>
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dan Edward Dba East edwards]

'central point' being my main service breaker box?
it's a good distance away from any plumbing...
 


 On Friday, October 30, 2015 12:28 PM, Jim Brown 
 wrote:
   

 No, that should be done at a central point in each premises, and only 
when the plumbing is metallic and conductive to the earth.

73, Jim

On Fri,10/30/2015 9:58 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
> ok...another thing i've wondered about...
> every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet quite 
> nearby..
> should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
> w5xz
>
>  
>
>
>      On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
> wrote:
>    
>
>  It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
> electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
> slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
> end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
> copper pipe in a weather protected spot.
>
> If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
> check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
> where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.
>
> You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
> spicket copper pipe and the power ground.
>
> If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:
>
>> On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
>>
>>> all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
>>> an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
>>> entrance...should I tie it in too ??
>>>
>> NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
>

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[w7dra]

corrrect me if i am wrong (seems i get more wrong than i used to) the
"Central Point" is where the white neutral buss, the green ground buss
and the ground rod return all come togtether 

mike w7dra


American Express Travel
Earn 2x Points When You Book at Amextravel.com. Book Now! Terms Apply.
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

Yes, or where other premises grounds are tied together. Systems like 
Telco, CATV, satellite, even lightning rods if there are any, building 
steel if there is any.


73, Jim

On Fri,10/30/2015 11:03 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:

'central point' being my main service breaker box?
it's a good distance away from any plumbing...
  



  On Friday, October 30, 2015 12:28 PM, Jim Brown 
 wrote:



  No, that should be done at a central point in each premises, and only
when the plumbing is metallic and conductive to the earth.

73, Jim

On Fri,10/30/2015 9:58 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:

ok...another thing i've wondered about...
every bathroom and utility sink plus the kitchen have 120 vac outlet quite 
nearby..
should i tie the green a.c. wire to the plumbing at each?
w5xz

   



   On Thursday, October 29, 2015 5:36 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
 wrote:
 


   It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
copper pipe in a weather protected spot.

If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.

You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
spicket copper pipe and the power ground.

If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:


On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:


all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
entrance...should I tie it in too ??


NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.

73, Jim K9YC
_
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Art Snapper]

At the risk of sounding redundant, be very careful when messing around with
the bonding/grounding of the electrical panel.
Over the years I have seen significant current on these circuits due to a
wiring fault at the pole or on the drop to the house.

Art NK8X
ᐧ

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
>
> > My county's codes also requires that there be some kind of jumper for
> > ground outside the water heater between the cold in pipe and hot out
> pipe.
> > I don't know if this is a safety requirement or they are trying to divert
> > electrolysis to prolong life of the water heater.
> >
>
> This is why the subject of this thread needs to be
> checked/rectified/inspected through the eyes of a local licensed
> electrician and local electrical inspectors, so that local additions to or
> variations on NEC are in effect on one's own premises. The legal local code
> is what will come to bear in case of fires, injuries, etc.
>
> DIY on this particular subject is really not so good an idea. I do know of
> a few DIYers that actually took the electrical licensing courses at the
> local community college and got the license, which included the variations
> for nearby counties. But they also had friends in building contracting for
> a source of local wisdom.
>
> Local wisdom like the stuff that the local electrical inspectors are hard
> about. You take your chances in the process if you don't have experience
> with the local jurisdiction.
>
> So you have the NEC, possible additions for your State, possible additions
> for your county, and possible additions for your local jurisdiction. Then
> you have the inspectors.
>
> Electrical advice via a 160 meter ham radio reflector from individuals
> scattered all over the globe? Even individuals qualified in their
> particular location. What could possibly go wrong  :>)
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Keith Jillings (G3OIT)]

On 30/10/2015 19:22, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> Electrical advice via a 160 meter ham radio reflector from individuals
> scattered all over the globe? Even individuals qualified in their
> particular location. What could possibly go wrong  :>)

Exactly so!

Where I am, ALL the copper pipes in the cupboard where the water main 
enters the house, and via which the hot and cold water and heating pipes 
head into the boiler and off in their various directions, are bonded 
together.


It's not thin stuff - it's thick multistrand cable, clamped to each pipe 
with a large red and silver metal label saying "Safety Electrical Earth 
- Do Not Remove".   That's mandatory in the UK and (I suspect) in the 
rest of the EU.


The incoming water main is in the regulation blue plastic pipe (blue = 
potable), but there is a mains earth which I think is a cluster of 
copper rods hammered into the ground.   The house is 500 years old and 
the earth connection is under the cupboard floor, so I don't mess with it.

We don't get a lot of RFI noise coming in that way.

There is similar bonding between the hot and cold pipes at the bathroom 
sink, the bath, the kitchen sink, the utility room sink, and so on.   My 
ohmmeter reads zero between any pair of copper pipes I can get to.


There are, of course, no power sockets in the bathroom or toilet within 
reach of the sink.  That's been banned here for a very long time:  fused 
transformers are supplied for shavers.   Light switches are the "drop 
cord" type, although conventional switches are allowed if they meet the 
latest safety regulations or are more than some distance from the sink.



73

Keith
G3OIT
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Keith Jillings (G3OIT)]

On 30/10/2015 19:49, Art Snapper wrote:


At the risk of sounding redundant, be very careful when messing around with
the bonding/grounding of the electrical panel.
Over the years I have seen significant current on these circuits due to a
wiring fault at the pole or on the drop to the house.


Indeed!   We used to own a cottage half way up a mountain in North 
Wales.  The incoming "earth" wire from the pole was at something like 
120 volts above ground (nominal voltage is 230).  We found out when my 
wife was cleaning the porch floor, standing outside the front door, and 
got a shock through the mop.


We thought we had a separate earth to a spike in the ground (we did, but 
it wasn't properly connected).   I poked that with an insulated 
screwdriver, there was a flash and a loud bang, and the house earth 
dropped to zero potential.  The lights in a house down the road went out.


Never did hear any more about that.


Keith

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Matt Murphy]

I'm in the process of setting up my station in a new QTH and plan to
install a station ground at the cable entrance.

Tom, is there a best practice for bonding to the mains ground? Any
approaches to avoid?

73,
Matt NQ6N

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Tom W8JI  wrote:

> I have and electrician coming next week who says he will check things out
>> and first of all ground the breaker panel to two ground rods 7 feet apart.
>> I thought the grounding was put at the meter but he says they don't do that
>> anymore. I think the old meter, before we had the new one put in had a
>> ground rod beneath it but nothing now. The only ground I could find to the
>> panel is a skimpy wire going to a water line. All of which looks corroded
>> etc.. I know many dollars were spent on renovation and restoration of this
>> place but I'm afraid to much emphasis was placed on cosmetic and not enough
>> on electrical as I look more closely, pretty depressing. >
>>
>
> Jim,
>
> Just keep in mind when  you do the work, the quality of the house ground
> to earth is far less important than having everything entering the house
> being bonded to act like one common point.
>
> One of the biggest mistakes in amateur radio grounding over the decades
> has been having the shack antenna and control cable entrance ground
> non-existent, and the common shack desk equipment ground to an independent
> ground.
>
> The shack ground must be bonded to the mains ground so everything entering
> the house is as close to one potential as you can get it.
>
> Correcting things may not cure your RFI, but it always makes things much
> safer and more reliable.
>
> 73 Tom
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Tom W8JI]

I have and electrician coming next week who says he will check things out 
and first of all ground the breaker panel to two ground rods 7 feet apart. 
I thought the grounding was put at the meter but he says they don't do that 
anymore. I think the old meter, before we had the new one put in had a 
ground rod beneath it but nothing now. The only ground I could find to the 
panel is a skimpy wire going to a water line. All of which looks corroded 
etc.. I know many dollars were spent on renovation and restoration of this 
place but I'm afraid to much emphasis was placed on cosmetic and not enough 
on electrical as I look more closely, pretty depressing. >


Jim,

Just keep in mind when  you do the work, the quality of the house ground to 
earth is far less important than having everything entering the house being 
bonded to act like one common point.


One of the biggest mistakes in amateur radio grounding over the decades has 
been having the shack antenna and control cable entrance ground 
non-existent, and the common shack desk equipment ground to an independent 
ground.


The shack ground must be bonded to the mains ground so everything entering 
the house is as close to one potential as you can get it.


Correcting things may not cure your RFI, but it always makes things much 
safer and more reliable.


73 Tom 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dan Edward Dba East edwards]

I, for one, wonder how good my service entrance ground is...mine is probably 20 
years old, and while the top looks ok, there's no way to know what's going on 
down 4, 6 and 8 feet...my utlities are underground, if that means anything...
as a starting point, should a guy drive a new one? or 2 or 3, spaced some 
distance apart?
( gosh, top band sounds lousy this fall, for me, anyway...sigs are well down 
from normal strength..)
73, w5xz, dan
 


 On Thursday, October 29, 2015 8:17 AM, Matt Murphy  wrote:
   

 I'm in the process of setting up my station in a new QTH and plan to
install a station ground at the cable entrance.

Tom, is there a best practice for bonding to the mains ground? Any
approaches to avoid?

73,
Matt NQ6N

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Tom W8JI  wrote:

> I have and electrician coming next week who says he will check things out
>> and first of all ground the breaker panel to two ground rods 7 feet apart.
>> I thought the grounding was put at the meter but he says they don't do that
>> anymore. I think the old meter, before we had the new one put in had a
>> ground rod beneath it but nothing now. The only ground I could find to the
>> panel is a skimpy wire going to a water line. All of which looks corroded
>> etc.. I know many dollars were spent on renovation and restoration of this
>> place but I'm afraid to much emphasis was placed on cosmetic and not enough
>> on electrical as I look more closely, pretty depressing. >
>>
>
> Jim,
>
> Just keep in mind when  you do the work, the quality of the house ground
> to earth is far less important than having everything entering the house
> being bonded to act like one common point.
>
> One of the biggest mistakes in amateur radio grounding over the decades
> has been having the shack antenna and control cable entrance ground
> non-existent, and the common shack desk equipment ground to an independent
> ground.
>
> The shack ground must be bonded to the mains ground so everything entering
> the house is as close to one potential as you can get it.
>
> Correcting things may not cure your RFI, but it always makes things much
> safer and more reliable.
>
> 73 Tom
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dave Blaschke, w5un]

I have driven copper ground rods in about ten years ago, then wrapped a 
couple turns of #4 wire around the top and soldered that to the rod 
using plumbers solder. These connections are as good today as the day I 
soldered them. Plumbers solder works very well outdoors for me. I use it 
on everything outdoors now.


Dave, W5UN

On 10/29/2015 2:43 PM, Paul Christensen wrote:

That's one reason why I like to augment a NEC-required mechanical connection 
with silver-solder.  The mechanical connection will degrade with time but it 
will take significantly longer for a silver-soldered connection to degrade, 
absent some really acidic soil condition.

Local code here now requires two (2) grounding electrodes at the service entrance spaced 
to cover the "sphere of influence."  That means two eight-foot rods require 16 
ft. spacing.  As I recall, the 2008 issue of NEC allows one electrode if one can 
demonstrate 25-ohms earthing resistance.Not sure if that's still true with the newest 
NEC changes.   But what measures 25 ohms today may measure a lot higher as time goes by.

Paul, W9AC

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dan Edward 
Dba East edwards
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 10:28 AM
To: Matt Murphy <m...@nq6n.com>; Tom W8JI <w...@w8ji.com>
Cc: Jim Murray <adkmur...@yahoo.com>; low bad reflector <Topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

I, for one, wonder how good my service entrance ground is...mine is probably 20 
years old, and while the top looks ok, there's no way to know what's going on 
down 4, 6 and 8 feet...my utlities are underground, if that means anything...
as a starting point, should a guy drive a new one? or 2 or 3, spaced some 
distance apart?
( gosh, top band sounds lousy this fall, for me, anyway...sigs are well down 
from normal strength..) 73, w5xz, dan
  



  On Thursday, October 29, 2015 8:17 AM, Matt Murphy <m...@nq6n.com> wrote:



  I'm in the process of setting up my station in a new QTH and plan to install 
a station ground at the cable entrance.

Tom, is there a best practice for bonding to the mains ground? Any approaches 
to avoid?

73,
Matt NQ6N

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Tom W8JI <w...@w8ji.com> wrote:


I have and electrician coming next week who says he will check things
out

and first of all ground the breaker panel to two ground rods 7 feet apart.
I thought the grounding was put at the meter but he says they don't
do that anymore. I think the old meter, before we had the new one put
in had a ground rod beneath it but nothing now. The only ground I
could find to the panel is a skimpy wire going to a water line. All
of which looks corroded etc.. I know many dollars were spent on
renovation and restoration of this place but I'm afraid to much
emphasis was placed on cosmetic and not enough on electrical as I
look more closely, pretty depressing. >>>>>


Jim,

Just keep in mind when  you do the work, the quality of the house
ground to earth is far less important than having everything entering
the house being bonded to act like one common point.

One of the biggest mistakes in amateur radio grounding over the
decades has been having the shack antenna and control cable entrance
ground non-existent, and the common shack desk equipment ground to an
independent ground.

The shack ground must be bonded to the mains ground so everything
entering the house is as close to one potential as you can get it.

Correcting things may not cure your RFI, but it always makes things
much safer and more reliable.

73 Tom
_
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_

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Paul Christensen]

That's one reason why I like to augment a NEC-required mechanical connection 
with silver-solder.  The mechanical connection will degrade with time but it 
will take significantly longer for a silver-soldered connection to degrade, 
absent some really acidic soil condition.

Local code here now requires two (2) grounding electrodes at the service 
entrance spaced to cover the "sphere of influence."  That means two eight-foot 
rods require 16 ft. spacing.  As I recall, the 2008 issue of NEC allows one 
electrode if one can demonstrate 25-ohms earthing resistance.Not sure if 
that's still true with the newest NEC changes.   But what measures 25 ohms 
today may measure a lot higher as time goes by.

Paul, W9AC 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dan Edward 
Dba East edwards
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 10:28 AM
To: Matt Murphy <m...@nq6n.com>; Tom W8JI <w...@w8ji.com>
Cc: Jim Murray <adkmur...@yahoo.com>; low bad reflector <Topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

I, for one, wonder how good my service entrance ground is...mine is probably 20 
years old, and while the top looks ok, there's no way to know what's going on 
down 4, 6 and 8 feet...my utlities are underground, if that means anything...
as a starting point, should a guy drive a new one? or 2 or 3, spaced some 
distance apart?
( gosh, top band sounds lousy this fall, for me, anyway...sigs are well down 
from normal strength..) 73, w5xz, dan
 


 On Thursday, October 29, 2015 8:17 AM, Matt Murphy <m...@nq6n.com> wrote:
   

 I'm in the process of setting up my station in a new QTH and plan to install a 
station ground at the cable entrance.

Tom, is there a best practice for bonding to the mains ground? Any approaches 
to avoid?

73,
Matt NQ6N

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Tom W8JI <w...@w8ji.com> wrote:

> I have and electrician coming next week who says he will check things 
> out
>> and first of all ground the breaker panel to two ground rods 7 feet apart.
>> I thought the grounding was put at the meter but he says they don't 
>> do that anymore. I think the old meter, before we had the new one put 
>> in had a ground rod beneath it but nothing now. The only ground I 
>> could find to the panel is a skimpy wire going to a water line. All 
>> of which looks corroded etc.. I know many dollars were spent on 
>> renovation and restoration of this place but I'm afraid to much 
>> emphasis was placed on cosmetic and not enough on electrical as I 
>> look more closely, pretty depressing. >>>>>
>>
>
> Jim,
>
> Just keep in mind when  you do the work, the quality of the house 
> ground to earth is far less important than having everything entering 
> the house being bonded to act like one common point.
>
> One of the biggest mistakes in amateur radio grounding over the 
> decades has been having the shack antenna and control cable entrance 
> ground non-existent, and the common shack desk equipment ground to an 
> independent ground.
>
> The shack ground must be bonded to the mains ground so everything 
> entering the house is as close to one potential as you can get it.
>
> Correcting things may not cure your RFI, but it always makes things 
> much safer and more reliable.
>
> 73 Tom
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

I seem to recall that one of the arguments against soldering ground rod
attachments was that a lightning strike would first evaporate the solder
and then burn the connection. This would create a period during the strike
when it was not firmly connected and far more resistive. That in turn
elevates the potential for damage.

That is why one is supposed to use sturdy clamping, or various schemes that
form the connection by sufficient heat to melt the copper together.

I've not heard anyone talk about doing a proper clamp, and then protecting
the proper clamping by silver soldering over it all. The obvious
disadvantage is that changing out the connection becomes interesting, as in
replacing the ground rod.

I loosen, clean and then retighten my #4 copper wire to ground rod
connections periodically.

In my years as a fireman and fire commissioner, I saw many lightning
started fires where grounding turned out to be damaged, aged, sometimes not
to current code and ineffective, or simply missing altogether. The worst
outcome in ignoring proper grounding is a lot worse than damaged radio
equipment. I personally never saw a fatality for that, but others of my
firefighting brethren did.

I also will underline the stories told here about discovered problems in
house grounding and electrical wiring. One of my sons bought an old house,
inspected by a building inspector that he paid for as part of the mortgage
process, that later turned out to be missing the neutral connection from
the pole transformer, and was using the iron natural gas pipe as both the
ground and neutral connection. (!)  That was discovered when I went
over there to discover the reasons for various mysterious lamp dimmings,
etc. The power company was there instantly when we told them that the
neutral connection was simply MISSING at the house.

Don't take grounding for granted. KNOW for sure that all your outlet wiring
is correct with one of those little plug in testers, and do not short cut
on grounding.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Dave Blaschke, w5un  wrote:

> I have driven copper ground rods in about ten years ago, then wrapped a
> couple turns of #4 wire around the top and soldered that to the rod using
> plumbers solder. These connections are as good today as the day I soldered
> them. Plumbers solder works very well outdoors for me. I use it on
> everything outdoors now.
>
> Dave, W5UN
>
_
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Paul Christensen]

*  ”I've not heard anyone talk about doing a proper clamp, and then protecting 
the proper clamping by silver soldering over it all. The obvious disadvantage 
is that changing out the connection becomes interesting, as in replacing the 
ground rod.



Not sure how you reached that conclusion.   I’m referring to a silver-soldered 
bypass of a mechanical clamp with copper strap.  The strap starts some inches 
away from the clamp, then reforms around it.  The clamp remains unsoldered and 
connected as per NEC and the manufacturer’s connection procedure.

 

Paul, W9AC

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Tom W8JI]

I have driven copper ground rods in about ten years ago, then wrapped a 
couple turns of #4 wire around the top and soldered that to the rod using 
plumbers solder. These connections are as good today as the day I soldered 
them. Plumbers solder works very well outdoors for me. I use it on 
everything outdoors now.


Dave, W5UN


80 year old broadcast radial systems are still good with silver solder 
connections. My 318ft tower gets whacked all the time and has silver 
soldered connections. They never melt. Even RF radials that augment the 
lightning ground, which are plumbers solder #16, do not get hurt.


The main reason NEC and other codes don't like solder is they don't trust 
people to know how to solder.


Of course the heat is I^2 R  times the time. It isn't just current, it is 
joules.  If the solder connection is good with low resistance, it will not 
get hot.


Also, there is no possible way a rod system could stay anywhere near zero 
volts in a strike. Almost all of the protection to equipment and the house 
itself is by the common point connection of things entering the house 
outside the house.


We certainly need the rods, but most of the protection comes from bonding of 
all things entering the dwelling. Very little of the protection inside the 
dwelling actually comes from the rods.


With a tower or tall structure likely to be hit, the structure ground can be 
a major player. That ground keeps strikes from raising the base voltage so 
much, and reduces common mode into the house grounds. It takes a pretty big 
ground system to not elevate in voltage in hits. A couple rods will not do 
it, even if they ohm just a few ohms at low frequencies.


73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Dan Edward Dba East edwards]

all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have an 
outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service entrance...should I 
tie it in too ??
just wondering, w5xz, dan
 


 On Thursday, October 29, 2015 1:39 PM, Tom W8JI  wrote:
   

 

>I have driven copper ground rods in about ten years ago, then wrapped a 
>couple turns of #4 wire around the top and soldered that to the rod using 
>plumbers solder. These connections are as good today as the day I soldered 
>them. Plumbers solder works very well outdoors for me. I use it on 
>everything outdoors now.
>
> Dave, W5UN

80 year old broadcast radial systems are still good with silver solder 
connections. My 318ft tower gets whacked all the time and has silver 
soldered connections. They never melt. Even RF radials that augment the 
lightning ground, which are plumbers solder #16, do not get hurt.

The main reason NEC and other codes don't like solder is they don't trust 
people to know how to solder.

Of course the heat is I^2 R  times the time. It isn't just current, it is 
joules.  If the solder connection is good with low resistance, it will not 
get hot.

Also, there is no possible way a rod system could stay anywhere near zero 
volts in a strike. Almost all of the protection to equipment and the house 
itself is by the common point connection of things entering the house 
outside the house.

We certainly need the rods, but most of the protection comes from bonding of 
all things entering the dwelling. Very little of the protection inside the 
dwelling actually comes from the rods.

With a tower or tall structure likely to be hit, the structure ground can be 
a major player. That ground keeps strikes from raising the base voltage so 
much, and reduces common mode into the house grounds. It takes a pretty big 
ground system to not elevate in voltage in hits. A couple rods will not do 
it, even if they ohm just a few ohms at low frequencies.

73 Tom 

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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

It would really be something if in-the-slab copper was floating
electrically. I have seen the copper connected with a heavy wire out of the
slab connected to the ground bus in the main electrical panel. The other
end of the wire came up out of the slab next to the bonding point with the
copper pipe in a weather protected spot.

If there is a question you should get a local licensed electrician who can
check it according to NEC + local practices. Local practices may specify
where and how the pipe is connected to the power ground.

You might want to check if an ohmmeter shows a dead short between the
spicket copper pipe and the power ground.

If it ain't connected, you need to get that fixed right away.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, October 29, 2015, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:
>
>> all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have
>> an outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service
>> entrance...should I tie it in too ??
>>
>
> NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _
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>


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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards wrote:

all my plumbing is copper, hot and cold water, in the slab.  and, i have an 
outside water spigot just a few feet away from my service entrance...should I 
tie it in too ??


NEC REQUIRES that it be tied in.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

Exactly right.

NQ6N asked about how to ground his new QTH.  For about ten years, I 
taught classes at trade shows on the topic of power and grounding for 
audio and video contractors. Slides for those sessions are at


http://k9yc.com/InfoComm-PowerSystems2012.pdf
http://k9yc.com/InfoComm-Grounding2012.pdf

An extensive "White Paper" on the topic is at

http://k9yc.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf

Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a tutorial I have given at 
Pacificon and at several ham clubs on the topic, this time focused on 
ham installations. I'll post it again. It's exactly what Matt is looking 
for, and it' what any ham ought to be studying carefully.


http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

On Thu,10/29/2015 5:07 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:

Jim,

Just keep in mind when  you do the work, the quality of the house 
ground to earth is far less important than having everything entering 
the house being bonded to act like one common point.


One of the biggest mistakes in amateur radio grounding over the 
decades has been having the shack antenna and control cable entrance 
ground non-existent, and the common shack desk equipment ground to an 
independent ground.


The shack ground must be bonded to the mains ground so everything 
entering the house is as close to one potential as you can get it.


Correcting things may not cure your RFI, but it always makes things 
much safer and more reliable.


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Re: Topband: RFI and lots of it

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

The amount of MF radio garbage that is running around common mode on power
lines, phone lines, metallic pipes, etc, is pretty amazing. I've walked
around with my battery K2 listening next to power pole ground wires, buried
power lines where they enter the ground.

The garbage level goes down very quickly as you move away from the wire. A
lot of it can't be heard above atmospherics if the antenna listened on
doesn't hear anything from its own feed coax shield.

Think of it like a network of hoses with leaks all over the place, where
the leaks work in reverse and you don't want anything getting in.

Grounded, bonded together, common mode chokes plugs all the leaks INTO your
signal coax wiring and into your equipment via power and signal wiring.

Power line buzz does not always use regular propagation to your receiver.
It can come in common mode on power lines whose
entirely satisfactory-for-power-purposes entry ground happens not to be
particularly effective at RF.

You will never know your real noise floor until the shack, wiring, antennas
and feedlines are grounded, bonded and blocked as needed.

73, Guy K2AV

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015, Steve Ireland  wrote:

> Hi Jim (Murray)
>
> Jim K9YC is absolutely right - I live in a similar situation to you and
> the problems have been markedly improved by getting the grounding and
> bonding to earth improved around the house - wish I had taken Jim's advice
> years ago. House earths are often very simple at best and whilst they may
> be good enough to save your life, they are often not good enough in terms
> of RF
>
> Have a look at Jim's book (there are some great diagrams) and get an
> professional electrician in to beef up/improve the house earth/improve the
> equipment bonding.
>
> The likelihood is you win both ways - probably be safer and the RF noise
> will be lower.
>
> Vy 73
>
> Steve, VK6VZ
>
> On Sun,10/25/2015 8:59 PM, Jim Murray via Topband wrote:
>
>> Tomorrow I will walk the line and see if I can come up with anything.
>>
>
> Jim,
>
> I STRONGLY suggest that you check out grounding and bonding in your home
> before looking for noise sources. Poor or missing grounding and bonding
> will bring noise into your home, so you need to get that right FIRST.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ---
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Re: Topband: RFI and lots of it

[Steve Ireland]

Hi Jim (Murray)

Jim K9YC is absolutely right - I live in a similar situation to you and the 
problems have been markedly improved by getting the grounding and bonding to 
earth improved around the house - wish I had taken Jim's advice years ago. 
House earths are often very simple at best and whilst they may be good 
enough to save your life, they are often not good enough in terms of RF.


Have a look at Jim's book (there are some great diagrams) and get an 
professional electrician in to beef up/improve the house earth/improve the 
equipment bonding.


The likelihood is you win both ways - probably be safer and the RF noise 
will be lower.


Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ

On Sun,10/25/2015 8:59 PM, Jim Murray via Topband wrote:

Tomorrow I will walk the line and see if I can come up with anything.


Jim,

I STRONGLY suggest that you check out grounding and bonding in your home
before looking for noise sources. Poor or missing grounding and bonding
will bring noise into your home, so you need to get that right FIRST.

73, Jim K9YC 



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Re: Topband: RFI and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,10/28/2015 8:34 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

I've walked
around with my battery K2 listening next to power pole ground wires, buried
power lines where they enter the ground.


Yes, and those wires are transmitting antennas, so they radiate that 
noise like any other antenna.


The earth is NOT a sump into which noise is poured; rather, it is sink 
for RF current, which simply changes the boundary conditions for those 
antennas.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: RFI and lots of it

[Art Snapper]

I ran into a rather odd source of RFI, possibly common mode.
I had 2 transformer type Astron power supplies in the ham shack.
One was a 15 amp desktop type, the other a 35 amp rackmount unit.
My observation is that when both were on, a buzz was detectable on various
frequencies in the 160 band. If either was off, the buzz was gone.
Removing the 15 amp supply, and wiring everything to the 35 amp supply
corrected that problem.
I'm not sure if there was some interaction between the transformers, a
ground loop, or something else was going on.

Art NK8X



On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
wrote:

> The amount of MF radio garbage that is running around common mode on power
> lines, phone lines, metallic pipes, etc, is pretty amazing. I've walked
> around with my battery K2 listening next to power pole ground wires, buried
> power lines where they enter the ground.
>
> The garbage level goes down very quickly as you move away from the wire. A
> lot of it can't be heard above atmospherics if the antenna listened on
> doesn't hear anything from its own feed coax shield.
>
> Think of it like a network of hoses with leaks all over the place, where
> the leaks work in reverse and you don't want anything getting in.
>
> Grounded, bonded together, common mode chokes plugs all the leaks INTO your
> signal coax wiring and into your equipment via power and signal wiring.
>
> Power line buzz does not always use regular propagation to your receiver.
> It can come in common mode on power lines whose
> entirely satisfactory-for-power-purposes entry ground happens not to be
> particularly effective at RF.
>
> You will never know your real noise floor until the shack, wiring, antennas
> and feedlines are grounded, bonded and blocked as needed.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2015, Steve Ireland  wrote:
>
> > Hi Jim (Murray)
> >
> > Jim K9YC is absolutely right - I live in a similar situation to you and
> > the problems have been markedly improved by getting the grounding and
> > bonding to earth improved around the house - wish I had taken Jim's
> advice
> > years ago. House earths are often very simple at best and whilst they may
> > be good enough to save your life, they are often not good enough in terms
> > of RF
> >
> > Have a look at Jim's book (there are some great diagrams) and get an
> > professional electrician in to beef up/improve the house earth/improve
> the
> > equipment bonding.
> >
> > The likelihood is you win both ways - probably be safer and the RF noise
> > will be lower.
> >
> > Vy 73
> >
> > Steve, VK6VZ
> >
> > On Sun,10/25/2015 8:59 PM, Jim Murray via Topband wrote:
> >
> >> Tomorrow I will walk the line and see if I can come up with anything.
> >>
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > I STRONGLY suggest that you check out grounding and bonding in your home
> > before looking for noise sources. Poor or missing grounding and bonding
> > will bring noise into your home, so you need to get that right FIRST.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> > ---
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> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: Topband: RFI and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

I suggest that you grab an Ohmeter and check that the green wire on the 
power cable is connected to the chassis. On all of the Astrons I've 
checked, it was not -- it was soldered to the mounting lug of a terminal 
strip, which was insulated from the chassis by paint. On one of the 
units, the two sections of the chassis were also insulated from each 
other by paint.


The simple fix is sandpaper.

73, Jim K9YC


On Wed,10/28/2015 8:50 AM, Art Snapper wrote:

I ran into a rather odd source of RFI, possibly common mode.
I had 2 transformer type Astron power supplies in the ham shack.
One was a 15 amp desktop type, the other a 35 amp rackmount unit.
My observation is that when both were on, a buzz was detectable on various
frequencies in the 160 band. If either was off, the buzz was gone.
Removing the 15 amp supply, and wiring everything to the 35 amp supply
corrected that problem.
I'm not sure if there was some interaction between the transformers, a
ground loop, or something else was going on.

Art NK8X



On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV 
wrote:


The amount of MF radio garbage that is running around common mode on power
lines, phone lines, metallic pipes, etc, is pretty amazing. I've walked
around with my battery K2 listening next to power pole ground wires, buried
power lines where they enter the ground.

The garbage level goes down very quickly as you move away from the wire. A
lot of it can't be heard above atmospherics if the antenna listened on
doesn't hear anything from its own feed coax shield.

Think of it like a network of hoses with leaks all over the place, where
the leaks work in reverse and you don't want anything getting in.

Grounded, bonded together, common mode chokes plugs all the leaks INTO your
signal coax wiring and into your equipment via power and signal wiring.

Power line buzz does not always use regular propagation to your receiver.
It can come in common mode on power lines whose
entirely satisfactory-for-power-purposes entry ground happens not to be
particularly effective at RF.

You will never know your real noise floor until the shack, wiring, antennas
and feedlines are grounded, bonded and blocked as needed.

73, Guy K2AV

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015, Steve Ireland  wrote:


Hi Jim (Murray)

Jim K9YC is absolutely right - I live in a similar situation to you and
the problems have been markedly improved by getting the grounding and
bonding to earth improved around the house - wish I had taken Jim's

advice

years ago. House earths are often very simple at best and whilst they may
be good enough to save your life, they are often not good enough in terms
of RF

Have a look at Jim's book (there are some great diagrams) and get an
professional electrician in to beef up/improve the house earth/improve

the

equipment bonding.

The likelihood is you win both ways - probably be safer and the RF noise
will be lower.

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ

On Sun,10/25/2015 8:59 PM, Jim Murray via Topband wrote:


Tomorrow I will walk the line and see if I can come up with anything.


Jim,

I STRONGLY suggest that you check out grounding and bonding in your home
before looking for noise sources. Poor or missing grounding and bonding
will bring noise into your home, so you need to get that right FIRST.

73, Jim K9YC

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Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Murray via Topband]

I have and electrician coming next week who says he will check things out and 
first of all ground the breaker panel to two ground rods 7 feet apart.  I 
thought the grounding was  put at the meter but he says they don't do that 
anymore.  I think the old meter, before we had the new one put in had a ground 
rod beneath it but nothing now.  The only ground I could find to the panel is a 
skimpy wire going to a water line.  All of which looks corroded etc..  I know 
many dollars were spent on renovation and restoration of this place but I'm 
afraid to much emphasis was placed on cosmetic and not enough on electrical as 
I look more closely, pretty depressing.  Well, at least it will be safer.  
Can't thank the forum members enough.Regards,jim/k2hn
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Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Murray via Topband]

Thanks Steve.  I agree but didn't expect this problem.  Should have known this 
could be a problem since this is an older home that has been remodeled.  
Regardless of the outcome with the power company I've been studying Jims 
writings on grounding and bonding and finding things that don't look right such 
as no ground rod for the power panel and a few elements of bonding are missing. 
 Looks like I'll have to straighten a few things up inside also.Regards,jim/k2hn

Jim K9YC is absolutely right - I live in a similar situation to you and the 
problems have been markedly improved by getting the grounding and bonding to 
earth improved around the house - wish I had taken Jim's advice years ago. 
House earths are often very simple at best and whilst they may be good 
enough to save your life, they are often not good enough in terms of RF.

Have a look at Jim's book (there are some great diagrams) and get an 
professional electrician in to beef up/improve the house earth/improve the 
equipment bonding.

The likelihood is you win both ways - probably be safer and the RF noise 
will be lower.

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,10/28/2015 1:49 PM, Jim Murray via Topband wrote:

Thanks Steve.  I agree but didn't expect this problem.  Should have known this 
could be a problem since this is an older home that has been remodeled.  
Regardless of the outcome with the power company I've been studying Jims 
writings on grounding and bonding and finding things that don't look right such 
as no ground rod for the power panel and a few elements of bonding are missing. 
 Looks like I'll have to straighten a few things up inside also.


That's one of many things I found wrong in the home I bought here in CA 
ten years ago. The only "ground" near the service entrance was to a hose 
faucet about 40 ft away, which was fed by PVC pipe. 240V plus neutral 
plus equipment ground was carried to a detached building with a 
"mother-in-law" apartment and garage. In that building, the only ground 
was a piece of #12 that meandered around the building for about 75 
linear feet to a single rod. I measured 1A in the green wire feeding my 
Titan power amp! All the noise on the power system neutral was going 
ground via the long connection to the second building, which radiated 
like crazy, making the QTH very noisy.


I also found one reverse-wired outlet, and an entire circuit in the 
"mother-in law" kitchen that was fed from one side of 240V and the green 
wire!


Before fixing all these problems, I heard the noise build on my HF 
mobile rig as I pulled into the driveway, and my 160M vertical, just 
outside the shack, was mondo noisy. Adding ground rods at the service 
entrance, and multiple rods in the "mother-in law" bedroom that became 
my ham shack made things a lot quieter.


The obvious advice is to never assume that ANYTHING was done right. Buy 
an outlet tester and check every outlet. Open up every box and check for 
proper bonding. Verify that there are bonds between all the systems, and 
be sure to add bonds from your radio shack to that combination of grounds.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it

[Tom W8JI]

Everything you do properly to reduce the chance of common mode noise being 
conducted into the house will also reduce RF feedback, power line fault 
damage, and lightning damage risks.


Even if it makes no difference in noise, it pays back in increased safety.

This house had expensive lightning protectors on the power line at the 
service head, but the only ground was a cast iron pipe with a loose rusty 
steel clamp. I threw the surge supressors away when I upgraded things over 
15 years ago. Despite adding towers that get hit quite often (a few times a 
month in thunderstorm seasons), I never lose anything. Not even a modem.


The only common damages are meleted cables and wires outside the buildings, 
but nothing can prevent that. 


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Re: Topband: topband RFI and lots of it

[Jim Murray via Topband]

Thanks to all.  Yes, eliminated everything in the home and noise continues 
during the day.  Evidently I've been lucky over the years.  Prior to retirement 
we counted 5 different homes around the country since I was licensed and this 
is the first with rfi problems in the area.  One location was a busy area in 
No. Virginia.  The present home is in a small rural town in an agricultural 
area, not even a street light:).  Tomorrow I will walk the line and see if I 
can come up with anything.  That will raise some eyebrows with the locals:)tnx 
agn,Jim/k2hn
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