Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[Steve London]

A little follow-up on the "relay bounce". It's certainly possible that I
have mischaracterized the problem.

I have a newer version of the RCS-4. It has sealed, enclosed relays (P
RTE24012F). There are no back-EMF diodes or capacitors across the relay
coil. Unfortunately, the SO239's are riveted (not screwed) to the plate and
they used a large blob of solder to connect each one to the board. Adding
diodes/capacitors is not trivial. As an experiment, I bypassed the bias-T
configuration and ran the control voltage on a separate wire. Alas, that
reduced the switching spike by 90%. I think that does point to the relay
coil back-EMF getting into the RF line.I will note that there is a 220 uF
electrolytic across each relay coil.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

73,
Steve, N2IC

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 4:13 AM  wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> I have been using FTR-K1 Series power relay for a years...see attached
> document.
>
>
>
>
> 73 from Vit, OK5MM
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Původní e-mail --
> Od: Allan Zadiraka 
> Komu: Grant Saviers 
> Datum: 23. 2. 2022 4:55:33
> Předmět: Re: Topband: Relay bounce
> "While I totally agree with the comments on the poor performance and life
> of
>
> the contacts on open frame relays, my experience with noise from relay
> switching has been that it is usually a failed snubber capacitor or diode
> across the relay coil. Occasionally, especially with rotary switches, the
> cause has been arching on the switch contacts.
>
>
> zeke ab8ou
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:07 PM Grant Saviers 
> wrote:
>
> > Small signal, dry contact relays are made from different contact
> > materials than power relays made for higher voltages and currents. Any
> > fix that cleans them or removes the surface oxide that inhibits low
> > voltage signal transmission will likely be temporary. Plus the high
> > power relays are prone to generating noise and have a large bounce.
> > Except for mercury wetted ones, bounce is common on all relays.
> >
> > Grant KZ1W
> >
> > On 2/22/2022 13:41, Michael Tope wrote:
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > Does the switch produce an S9 spike on any transition of the switch
> > > (i.e. from position N to position N+/-1) or only on a certain subset
> of
> > > switch transitions? That might provide a clue as to whether there is a
> > > problem with one of the relays or the power supply that energizes
> them.
> > > I am wondering if it could be a bad filter capacitor in the relay
> > > control circuits or a bad DC blocking cap over on the switch end.
> > >
> > > I am not convinced that dirty relay contacts could cause the noise
> > > spike, but it is probably agree to clean the relay contacts anyway
> just
> > > in case. W8JI recommended soaking a piece a paper in a liquid
> > > hydrocarbon (I think he used Xylene) and then passing that paper
> between
>
> > > the contacts of the relays in order to transfer any foreign material
> to
> > > the paper without causing undue abrasion to the relay contacts. I've
> > > done this and it has fixed the problem of an RCS-4 going deaf on
> receive
>
> > > despite still working for transmit. For receive only applications you
> > > might have to do it more often.
> > >
> > > 73, Mike W4EF...
> > >
> > > On 2/22/2022 10:04 AM, Steve London wrote:
> > >> I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between
> beverage
>
> > >> antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce
> > >> causing an
> > >> S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how
> to
> > >> improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm
> > >> amenable
> > >> to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had
> issues
>
> > >> before with other relays due to no current going through the
> contacts.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks and 73,
> > >> Steve, N2IC
> > >> _
> > >
> > > _
> > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector.
> "
>
>
>
>
> "
> "
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[ok5mm]

Hello,



I have been using FTR-K1 Series power relay for a years...see attached 
document.




73 from Vit, OK5MM





-- Původní e-mail --
Od: Allan Zadiraka 
Komu: Grant Saviers 
Datum: 23. 2. 2022 4:55:33
Předmět: Re: Topband: Relay bounce 
"While I totally agree with the comments on the poor performance and life of

the contacts on open frame relays, my experience with noise from relay 
switching has been that it is usually a failed snubber capacitor or diode 
across the relay coil. Occasionally, especially with rotary switches, the 
cause has been arching on the switch contacts. 


zeke ab8ou 


On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:07 PM Grant Saviers  wrote: 

> Small signal, dry contact relays are made from different contact 
> materials than power relays made for higher voltages and currents. Any 
> fix that cleans them or removes the surface oxide that inhibits low 
> voltage signal transmission will likely be temporary. Plus the high 
> power relays are prone to generating noise and have a large bounce. 
> Except for mercury wetted ones, bounce is common on all relays. 
> 
> Grant KZ1W 
> 
> On 2/22/2022 13:41, Michael Tope wrote: 
> > Steve, 
> > 
> > Does the switch produce an S9 spike on any transition of the switch 
> > (i.e. from position N to position N+/-1) or only on a certain subset of 
> > switch transitions? That might provide a clue as to whether there is a 
> > problem with one of the relays or the power supply that energizes them. 
> > I am wondering if it could be a bad filter capacitor in the relay 
> > control circuits or a bad DC blocking cap over on the switch end. 
> > 
> > I am not convinced that dirty relay contacts could cause the noise 
> > spike, but it is probably agree to clean the relay contacts anyway just 
> > in case. W8JI recommended soaking a piece a paper in a liquid 
> > hydrocarbon (I think he used Xylene) and then passing that paper between

> > the contacts of the relays in order to transfer any foreign material to 
> > the paper without causing undue abrasion to the relay contacts. I've 
> > done this and it has fixed the problem of an RCS-4 going deaf on receive

> > despite still working for transmit. For receive only applications you 
> > might have to do it more often. 
> > 
> > 73, Mike W4EF... 
> > 
> > On 2/22/2022 10:04 AM, Steve London wrote: 
> >> I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage

> >> antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce 
> >> causing an 
> >> S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how 
to 
> >> improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm 
> >> amenable 
> >> to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues

> >> before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts. 
> >> 
> >> Thanks and 73, 
> >> Steve, N2IC 
> >> _ 
> > 
> > _ 
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
> Reflector 
> _ 
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
> Reflector 
> 
_ 
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector.
"



 
"
"
_
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Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[Steve London]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Let me give you a few more details. I recently complicated matters, which
seems to have exacerbated the problem. Instead of using the rotary switch
on the RCS-4, I am now controlling over WiFi with an ESP8266 driving
relays, which then apply the correct voltage on the RCS-4 bias-tee (+13,
-13, 17 AC). So I have the relays in the control box, and the relays
switching the antennas. One nice thing about using my own ESP software is
that I was able to confirm that the arc is happening on the make, and not
the break. The new relays in the control box are Tongling JQC-3FF-S-Z. You
can buy a set of 8, mounted on a PC board, for next to nothing from eBay,
Amazon, etc.

As an experiment, I'm going to take the control voltage off the bias-tee
and run it independently, since I have some spare wires out to the
switching box.

73,
Steve, N2IC

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 8:55 PM Allan Zadiraka  wrote:

> While I totally agree with the comments on the poor performance and life of
> the contacts on open frame relays, my experience with noise from relay
> switching has been that it is usually a failed snubber capacitor or diode
> across the relay coil.  Occasionally, especially with rotary switches, the
> cause has been arching on the switch contacts.
>
>
> zeke  ab8ou
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:07 PM Grant Saviers  wrote:
>
> > Small signal, dry contact relays are made from different contact
> > materials than power relays made for higher voltages and currents.  Any
> > fix that cleans them or removes the surface oxide that inhibits low
> > voltage signal transmission will likely be temporary.  Plus the high
> > power relays are prone to generating noise and have a large bounce.
> > Except for mercury wetted ones, bounce is common on all relays.
> >
> > Grant KZ1W
> >
> > On 2/22/2022 13:41, Michael Tope wrote:
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > Does the switch produce an S9 spike on any transition of the switch
> > > (i.e. from position N to position N+/-1) or only on a certain subset of
> > > switch transitions? That might provide a clue as to whether there is a
> > > problem with one of the relays or the power supply that energizes them.
> > > I am wondering if it could be a bad filter capacitor in the relay
> > > control circuits or a bad DC blocking cap over on the switch end.
> > >
> > > I am not convinced that dirty relay contacts could cause the noise
> > > spike, but it is probably  agree to clean the relay contacts anyway
> just
> > > in case. W8JI recommended soaking a piece a paper in a liquid
> > > hydrocarbon (I think he used Xylene) and then passing that paper
> between
> > > the contacts of the relays in order to transfer any foreign material to
> > > the paper without causing undue abrasion to the relay contacts. I've
> > > done this and it has fixed the problem of an RCS-4 going deaf on
> receive
> > > despite still working for transmit. For receive only applications you
> > > might have to do it more often.
> > >
> > > 73, Mike W4EF...
> > >
> > > On 2/22/2022 10:04 AM, Steve London wrote:
> > >> I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between
> beverage
> > >> antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce
> > >> causing an
> > >> S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how
> to
> > >> improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm
> > >> amenable
> > >> to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had
> issues
> > >> before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks and 73,
> > >> Steve, N2IC
> > >> _
> > >
> > > _
> > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[Allan Zadiraka]

While I totally agree with the comments on the poor performance and life of
the contacts on open frame relays, my experience with noise from relay
switching has been that it is usually a failed snubber capacitor or diode
across the relay coil.  Occasionally, especially with rotary switches, the
cause has been arching on the switch contacts.


zeke  ab8ou


On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:07 PM Grant Saviers  wrote:

> Small signal, dry contact relays are made from different contact
> materials than power relays made for higher voltages and currents.  Any
> fix that cleans them or removes the surface oxide that inhibits low
> voltage signal transmission will likely be temporary.  Plus the high
> power relays are prone to generating noise and have a large bounce.
> Except for mercury wetted ones, bounce is common on all relays.
>
> Grant KZ1W
>
> On 2/22/2022 13:41, Michael Tope wrote:
> > Steve,
> >
> > Does the switch produce an S9 spike on any transition of the switch
> > (i.e. from position N to position N+/-1) or only on a certain subset of
> > switch transitions? That might provide a clue as to whether there is a
> > problem with one of the relays or the power supply that energizes them.
> > I am wondering if it could be a bad filter capacitor in the relay
> > control circuits or a bad DC blocking cap over on the switch end.
> >
> > I am not convinced that dirty relay contacts could cause the noise
> > spike, but it is probably  agree to clean the relay contacts anyway just
> > in case. W8JI recommended soaking a piece a paper in a liquid
> > hydrocarbon (I think he used Xylene) and then passing that paper between
> > the contacts of the relays in order to transfer any foreign material to
> > the paper without causing undue abrasion to the relay contacts. I've
> > done this and it has fixed the problem of an RCS-4 going deaf on receive
> > despite still working for transmit. For receive only applications you
> > might have to do it more often.
> >
> > 73, Mike W4EF...
> >
> > On 2/22/2022 10:04 AM, Steve London wrote:
> >> I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage
> >> antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce
> >> causing an
> >> S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how to
> >> improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm
> >> amenable
> >> to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues
> >> before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.
> >>
> >> Thanks and 73,
> >> Steve, N2IC
> >> _
> >
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[Jon Zaimes via Topband]

Steve,
Older RCS-4 used open-face relays which are more of a problem for relay bounce.
Newer RCS-4 use sealed small-signal relays. Getting one of the newer units may 
solve your problem.
73/Jon

Jon P. Zaimes, AA1K Tower climber for hire http://www.aa1k.us/ Cell: 
302-632-2353email: j...@verizon.net or a...@arrl.net

-Original Message-
From: Steve London 
To: Topband 
Sent: Tue, Feb 22, 2022 1:04 pm
Subject: Topband: Relay bounce

I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage
antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce causing an
S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how to
improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm amenable
to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues
before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.

Thanks and 73,
Steve, N2IC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_
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Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[John Battin]

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Wayne Kline<mailto:w...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 14:02
To: Steve London<mailto:n2ica...@gmail.com>; 
Topband<mailto:topband@contesting.com>@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Relay bounce

Steve,
I am not sure it is contact bounce.  I look would at grounding or other issues 
that would conduct transients of the relay coils into the RF stream.
John k9dx


My frist thought is to clean the contacts ( there open frame relays)

   For changing the relays Direct replacement  difficult . The Co that makes 
them  produces them in limited runs for  Amerirtron

   GL


Wayne ,W3EA
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Steve London<mailto:n2ica...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:05 PM
To: Topband<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: Relay bounce

I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage
antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce causing an
S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how to
improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm amenable
to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues
before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.

Thanks and 73,
Steve, N2IC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[Grant Saviers]

Small signal, dry contact relays are made from different contact 
materials than power relays made for higher voltages and currents.  Any 
fix that cleans them or removes the surface oxide that inhibits low 
voltage signal transmission will likely be temporary.  Plus the high 
power relays are prone to generating noise and have a large bounce. 
Except for mercury wetted ones, bounce is common on all relays.


Grant KZ1W

On 2/22/2022 13:41, Michael Tope wrote:

Steve,

Does the switch produce an S9 spike on any transition of the switch 
(i.e. from position N to position N+/-1) or only on a certain subset of 
switch transitions? That might provide a clue as to whether there is a 
problem with one of the relays or the power supply that energizes them. 
I am wondering if it could be a bad filter capacitor in the relay 
control circuits or a bad DC blocking cap over on the switch end.


I am not convinced that dirty relay contacts could cause the noise 
spike, but it is probably  agree to clean the relay contacts anyway just 
in case. W8JI recommended soaking a piece a paper in a liquid 
hydrocarbon (I think he used Xylene) and then passing that paper between 
the contacts of the relays in order to transfer any foreign material to 
the paper without causing undue abrasion to the relay contacts. I've 
done this and it has fixed the problem of an RCS-4 going deaf on receive 
despite still working for transmit. For receive only applications you 
might have to do it more often.


73, Mike W4EF...

On 2/22/2022 10:04 AM, Steve London wrote:

I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage
antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce 
causing an

S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how to
improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm 
amenable

to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues
before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.

Thanks and 73,
Steve, N2IC
_


_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[Michael Tope]

Steve,

Does the switch produce an S9 spike on any transition of the switch 
(i.e. from position N to position N+/-1) or only on a certain subset of 
switch transitions? That might provide a clue as to whether there is a 
problem with one of the relays or the power supply that energizes them. 
I am wondering if it could be a bad filter capacitor in the relay 
control circuits or a bad DC blocking cap over on the switch end.


I am not convinced that dirty relay contacts could cause the noise 
spike, but it is probably  agree to clean the relay contacts anyway just 
in case. W8JI recommended soaking a piece a paper in a liquid 
hydrocarbon (I think he used Xylene) and then passing that paper between 
the contacts of the relays in order to transfer any foreign material to 
the paper without causing undue abrasion to the relay contacts. I've 
done this and it has fixed the problem of an RCS-4 going deaf on receive 
despite still working for transmit. For receive only applications you 
might have to do it more often.


73, Mike W4EF...

On 2/22/2022 10:04 AM, Steve London wrote:

I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage
antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce causing an
S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how to
improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm amenable
to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues
before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.

Thanks and 73,
Steve, N2IC
_


_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[Wayne Kline]

Steve,

   My frist thought is to clean the contacts ( there open frame relays)

   For changing the relays Direct replacement  difficult . The Co that makes 
them  produces them in limited runs for  Amerirtron

   GL


Wayne ,W3EA
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Steve London<mailto:n2ica...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:05 PM
To: Topband<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: Relay bounce

I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage
antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce causing an
S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how to
improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm amenable
to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues
before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.

Thanks and 73,
Steve, N2IC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: Relay bounce

[VE6WZ_Steve]

Steve,

Using open frame relays can often lead to problems, especially in an outdoor 
environment in a low signal RX path.

I have well over 40 relays at my remote switching various RX antennas in the 
field.
Over the last 10 years I have had no failures or intermittent issues using 
sealed small signal relays like the Omron G5V-2.
Look inside almost any modern radio and you will see these same relays.

I have a YouTube video showing exactly what kind of relays I use.
The video also shows the construction method, schematic and I include the PCB 
files and a BOM if you want to build your own.
https://youtu.be/Ei7q1Hy6FDk 

73,de steve ve6wz

> On Feb 22, 2022, at 11:04 AM, Steve London  wrote:
> 
> I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage
> antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce causing an
> S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how to
> improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm amenable
> to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues
> before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.
> 
> Thanks and 73,
> Steve, N2IC
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Topband: Relay bounce

[Steve London]

I am using an Ameritron RCS-4 antenna switch to select between beverage
antennas. Recently, it has developed a bad case of relay bounce causing an
S9 spike every time I switch between antennas. Any suggestions on how to
improve this ? Since it's only used for RX antenna selection, I'm amenable
to replacing the relays with something else, although I have had issues
before with other relays due to no current going through the contacts.

Thanks and 73,
Steve, N2IC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector