Re: Topband: Timor Leste report #10
Dietmar, FT8: I share your understanding of the DXCC rules. Somebody must be there and do something to initiate the contact. That is how I see it, but realistically, if you can not tell the difference, how do you police it? While I don't agree with automated FT8 operation, at least the those using it today are honest about it. Invalidating their QSO-s will mean that in the future they will not declare when they are automated. I prefer honesty over perfection. On CW I use the same standard as you have described. I take a note of where I am not sure and later use that when receiving correction requests. If it is not on my "doubtful" list, and it is just one letter off, and everything else matches, it is probably a legit request. But, I received a log correction request, which had everything right and only one letter off, I corrected the call, and next day the real "owner" complained that his QSO has disappeared. Many 160 m contacts are marginal and we have to work hard at them. That is why it is more fun than FT8! TKS for your efforts and 73, George, AA7JV K8R and KH8/AA7JV On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 04:39:54 +0100 Dietmar Kasper wrote: Dear Topbanders 90% of the equipment is in the container. We still have 2 1/2 stations running (one without amp in phone only) the 160m antennas and beverages are still up and some simple wire verticals have been added to continue beeing QRV the next days and nights. It seems we are in rain season now. No afternoon without close thunderstorms and all the noise on the bands. Propagation is still poor however last night was a short window around 12:30 to work a few lucky W4´s. In the thunderstorm noise call sign logging is guessing. I am sure that I am not almost right with the call. I called a W4 for about 5 minutes and thought it was K4SV. At the end I was logging K4SV but I had the feeling that this station was not happy with that call and I may have it wrong ... as much as you can hear in the crashes... (QSO interpretation later) When it comes to the question if a QSO is a QSO or not there is no unique standard. Thanks to all for discussing the question about FT contacts that must be initiated by an operator. I feel that the discussion is still open and a solution accepted by the majority of topbanders is not there so far. It was clearly indicated that the station must be observed during the contacts so automated contacts do not count for DXCC. Still open is if the contacts must be initiated by the operator or just by software. Some said it is OK that the operator is still watching that everything goes well. In my opinion an operator (and ARRL clearly uses the word OPERATOR) is only an operator if HE OPERATES, means, a visitor cannot be an operator by just watching the traffic. So my personal conclusion is that every contact MUST BE INITIATED by an operator MANUALLY - like in old days before MSHV software. I have the feeling that this cn start a revolution in DXpeditions of today because I FEEL AND KNOW that most DXpeds are running FT contacts unintended and uninitiated however nobody has prove of it as long as the DXped guys state that they are work in strict order of DXCC rules - do they ? what do you think :-) ? Also in CW mode its interesting to define if a QSO is a QSO. A QSO is not just happen that one operator calls and the DXped picks him up and give him a report. Station must hear that the call was given correct and the report is for him and he has to answer without delay. Even then QSO is not sure as long as both partners have not confirmed the contact by TU. Very often on topband QSB has prevented a QSO to finish. However this is a hobby and rules give room for interpretation. One station told me that I worked him 3 times but logged his call wrong so he does not define this contacts as good. He wrote: "at the 3rd time you came close to my call but it still was wrong so I continue trying next nights". This is a pretty high QSO standard! I am not so strict. I know that under this hard QRN situation call errors happen and I will have contacts wrong for sure. I still log it even I know it may be wrong but there is no penalty in DXpedition compared to a contest If a station gives me proof that it was HIS CONTACT by telling me the wrong call, his call, the date+time and the exact QRG he transmitted - we might correct his call sign, as long as the noted call in log is not requested by another station. However his call must be close to the logged call, mostly wrong just by one letter. I wonder if topband community agrees with me or not. These are some "contacts once in a liftime" so I do not want to make it harder as neccessary. Long writing, sorry for that. I hope it is still interesting for you readers. Topband is a very serious part of the hobby and who else as the topbanders should define the standards of a GOOD QSO. I do not want to create confrontation and bad discussions but I think its essential to think
Topband: Timor Leste report #10
Dear Topbanders 90% of the equipment is in the container. We still have 2 1/2 stations running (one without amp in phone only) the 160m antennas and beverages are still up and some simple wire verticals have been added to continue beeing QRV the next days and nights. It seems we are in rain season now. No afternoon without close thunderstorms and all the noise on the bands. Propagation is still poor however last night was a short window around 12:30 to work a few lucky W4´s. In the thunderstorm noise call sign logging is guessing. I am sure that I am not almost right with the call. I called a W4 for about 5 minutes and thought it was K4SV. At the end I was logging K4SV but I had the feeling that this station was not happy with that call and I may have it wrong ... as much as you can hear in the crashes... (QSO interpretation later) When it comes to the question if a QSO is a QSO or not there is no unique standard. Thanks to all for discussing the question about FT contacts that must be initiated by an operator. I feel that the discussion is still open and a solution accepted by the majority of topbanders is not there so far. It was clearly indicated that the station must be observed during the contacts so automated contacts do not count for DXCC. Still open is if the contacts must be initiated by the operator or just by software. Some said it is OK that the operator is still watching that everything goes well. In my opinion an operator (and ARRL clearly uses the word OPERATOR) is only an operator if HE OPERATES, means, a visitor cannot be an operator by just watching the traffic. So my personal conclusion is that every contact MUST BE INITIATED by an operator MANUALLY - like in old days before MSHV software. I have the feeling that this cn start a revolution in DXpeditions of today because I FEEL AND KNOW that most DXpeds are running FT contacts unintended and uninitiated however nobody has prove of it as long as the DXped guys state that they are work in strict order of DXCC rules - do they ? what do you think :-) ? Also in CW mode its interesting to define if a QSO is a QSO. A QSO is not just happen that one operator calls and the DXped picks him up and give him a report. Station must hear that the call was given correct and the report is for him and he has to answer without delay. Even then QSO is not sure as long as both partners have not confirmed the contact by TU. Very often on topband QSB has prevented a QSO to finish. However this is a hobby and rules give room for interpretation. One station told me that I worked him 3 times but logged his call wrong so he does not define this contacts as good. He wrote: "at the 3rd time you came close to my call but it still was wrong so I continue trying next nights". This is a pretty high QSO standard! I am not so strict. I know that under this hard QRN situation call errors happen and I will have contacts wrong for sure. I still log it even I know it may be wrong but there is no penalty in DXpedition compared to a contest If a station gives me proof that it was HIS CONTACT by telling me the wrong call, his call, the date+time and the exact QRG he transmitted - we might correct his call sign, as long as the noted call in log is not requested by another station. However his call must be close to the logged call, mostly wrong just by one letter. I wonder if topband community agrees with me or not. These are some "contacts once in a liftime" so I do not want to make it harder as neccessary. Long writing, sorry for that. I hope it is still interesting for you readers. Topband is a very serious part of the hobby and who else as the topbanders should define the standards of a GOOD QSO. I do not want to create confrontation and bad discussions but I think its essential to think about QSO rules for us. more to follow 73 Dietmar _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report
On 11/28/2023 3:40 PM, Wes Stewart via Topband wrote: Serious weak-signal ops would be using CW, so who cares what the FT8 guys are doing? Serious weak signal ops have been using WSJT modes on VHF/UHF since they were first developed. Likewise on the longwave bands. One of the sharpest topband DXpeditioners, AA7JV, has been using FT8 a lot for at least four years. George is both a first class op and one of the smartest engineers I know of. I use "engineer" in the sense of someone who uses science to solve problems, often in very innovative ways. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report
Serious weak-signal ops would be using CW, so who cares what the FT8 guys are doing? :-) On Tuesday, November 28, 2023 at 02:37:00 PM MST, Jim Brown wrote: On 11/28/2023 5:05 AM, Dietmar Kasper wrote: > A resolution at the July ARRL Board of Directors meeting pointed to > “growing concern over fully automated contacts being made and claimed” > for contest and DXCC credit. The rules now require that each claimed > contact include contemporaneous direct initiation by the operator on > both sides of the contact. Initiation of a contact may be either local > or remote. They might want to start enforcing this with several of their midwest SCMs who have been running nearly fulltime BOTs on 6M FT8 for well over a year. They have been complained about to the League by serious weak-signal 6M ops. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report
On 11/28/2023 5:05 AM, Dietmar Kasper wrote: A resolution at the July ARRL Board of Directors meeting pointed to “growing concern over fully automated contacts being made and claimed” for contest and DXCC credit. The rules now require that each claimed contact include contemporaneous direct initiation by the operator on both sides of the contact. Initiation of a contact may be either local or remote. They might want to start enforcing this with several of their midwest SCMs who have been running nearly fulltime BOTs on 6M FT8 for well over a year. They have been complained about to the League by serious weak-signal 6M ops. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report #9
Dear Topbanders the plan is to continue topband operation until Sunday. The latest news are that the container with equipment will leave here on Monday to reach the planned ship departure. Last night has been poor. We had a thunderstorm with lightnings short before sunset. It came from the south over the mountains and went north west making the band unusable at US time. Crashes continued full night until sunrise. Worked few EUs in the morning half hour before sunrise 1xOH2 1xON 3xOM 1xDF6. Band closed with the sunrise. There was no sunrise peak. I thought I would understand topband propagation after many activities in the south but it always surprises me. Every night is different. 73 Dietmar _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report
ARRL wrote: " The rules now require that each claimed contact include contemporaneous direct initiation by the operator on both sides of the contact. Initiation of a contact may be either local or remote." The phrase "contemporaneous direct initiation" is an interesting nuance. I can personally think of attempted CW QSOs where both sides initiated the contact successfully, but either or both sides may not have completed the QSO. This could be caused by miscopying the call, deep QSB, QRM or otherwise. Both sides usually confirm their QSO by either sending "R TU" or "CFM" etc. More importantly the QSO timing should be correct to prevent the "helpers" on frequency or Chat prompting either side of the QSO...please don't do that guys! It reminds me of the poor practices that first began in W7PHO nets..."When last heard (could have been last year) you were 2 by 2...rifle shot" and then the net control proclaims "Good Contact!". Shameful! 73, Bill W4ZV _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report
Dietmar, my interpretation is that yes: BOTH sides of the QSO must be initiated, or begun, by a human or the QSO does not count. In other words, even though your computer can do all of the data translation into human-readable text, a QSO that takes place AUTOMATICALLY by the computer does NOT count. The operators may be either local or remote, that doesn't matter. So, for example, George, at KH8/AA7JV, may make digital mode QSOs while relaxing on his boat and his RIB is on the shore, and he's controlling the RIB remotely... AS LONG as it's George (or another operator) who is actually initiating, or beginning, the QSO. NOTE: the ARRL made a big point of saying "initiate" QSOs; initiate, in the English language, means to begin something. Nothing is implied about ENDING anything, however... so the QSO can be automagically ENDED by the computer, and it will count. By saying "contemporaneous", the ARRL is making the point that the QSO must be initiated (begun) at the proper time, instead of some time in the future or past. In other words, you can't program your computer to call and work the DXpedition in 25 minutes while you are off having supper: you must be there at the computer and actually triggr the conputer to initiate, or begin, the QSO. So yes, if you set up your computer to make automagic QSOs while you run off to sleep or to eat or drink or whatever, THAT does NOT count. If any DXpeditions are doing that (setting up then letting the computer run all by itself with no human initiating (beginning) the QSO, then their QSOs, even if the far-off operator is sitting right at the computer, do NOT count. The next question is: can the DXpedition set up their computer to monitor the band, then respond to and call DXers AUTOMATICALLY, with NO human interaction, BETWEEN QSOs?? The ARRL's message says "contemporaneous direct initiation" of both sides of the contact; so NO, letting your computer AUTOMATICALLY find and call a DXer is NOT allowed: YOU, the DXpeditioner, must initiate the QSO yourself, however your station does that (tuning around to find new stations then calling them). And by the way... with that one message, I can think of at least one Southern California radio club member who should forfeit most of his DX QSOs from the past 4 or 5 years, because he had his computer set up to AUTOMATICALLY tune for, call, and work DX. He was not there during most of his "QSOs"; he simply set up the computer and radio then came back hours later to see what it had worked. That's my own interpretation of what you related from the ARRL's message. 73, Steve K0XP On 11/28/2023 5:05 AM, Dietmar Kasper wrote: After CQWW we dismantle the station but we are still QRV on topband maybe also on other bands We still have a close thunderstorm so RX is again very bad, cant copy signals weaker as S5 strength Got message about ARRL rules for DXCC and other awards. I myself do not operate FT modes so maybe one who uses it can tell me how to handle it. ARRL does not count fully automated robot QSOs for DXCC credit. https://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-contest-and-dxcc-rules-now-prohibit-automated-contacts Please clarification, what does it mean ? ARRL writes: A resolution at the July ARRL Board of Directors meeting pointed to “growing concern over fully automated contacts being made and claimed” for contest and DXCC credit. The rules now require that each claimed contact include contemporaneous direct initiation by the operator on both sides of the contact. Initiation of a contact may be either local or remote. both sides of the contact ? I understand that the applicant must be present at the radio to initiate and log the contact. What about the other side (DXpedition ?) Does initiating a contact means "I switch on radio and computer, start MSHV software and let it running automatically logging contacts hour after hour attended by human watching the traffic or even unattended if operator observes several bands in parallel or go to dinner, have a beer or even go sleep ? DXpedition is not requesting a DXCC so is that operation OK ? If both sides must initiate and log the contact manually then my conclusion is that most of the big DXpeditions using MSHV would do wrong ? I wonder that nobody asked this question before. still confused ... 73 Dietmar _ Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector -- See my QRZ.com page at *https://www.qrz.com/db/K0XP* _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report
After CQWW we dismantle the station but we are still QRV on topband maybe also on other bands We still have a close thunderstorm so RX is again very bad, cant copy signals weaker as S5 strength Got message about ARRL rules for DXCC and other awards. I myself do not operate FT modes so maybe one who uses it can tell me how to handle it. >ARRL does not count fully automated robot QSOs for DXCC credit. >https://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-contest-and-dxcc-rules-now-prohibit-automated-contacts Please clarification, what does it mean ? ARRL writes: A resolution at the July ARRL Board of Directors meeting pointed to “growing concern over fully automated contacts being made and claimed” for contest and DXCC credit. The rules now require that each claimed contact include contemporaneous direct initiation by the operator on both sides of the contact. Initiation of a contact may be either local or remote. both sides of the contact ? I understand that the applicant must be present at the radio to initiate and log the contact. What about the other side (DXpedition ?) Does initiating a contact means "I switch on radio and computer, start MSHV software and let it running automatically logging contacts hour after hour attended by human watching the traffic or even unattended if operator observes several bands in parallel or go to dinner, have a beer or even go sleep ? DXpedition is not requesting a DXCC so is that operation OK ? If both sides must initiate and log the contact manually then my conclusion is that most of the big DXpeditions using MSHV would do wrong ? I wonder that nobody asked this question before. still confused ... 73 Dietmar _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report
Hi Dietmar, your last post looks empty?Hope you had fun in CQWW, thanks to the team for QSOs @ MD4K , but not 160m unfortunately:-(73 Dave, G3NKCSent from my Galaxy Original message From: Dietmar Kasper Date: 28/11/2023 11:15 (GMT+00:00) To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report _Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste post cqww report
_ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste report #8
Dietmar, Like many others in the eastern part of the USA I have been trying to work you on 160m CW before and after my sunrise (1238Z now). Today (24Nov) was the first time your signal was actually Q5 for me, but you could not hear the large pileup calling you. I expect a QSO will be impossible during the contest weekend, but my question for you is are you going to try 160m CW again after the contest or not? 73 und Danke Sehr, Walt, AJ6T (EM66 Tennessee) On 11/23/2023 3:24 PM, Dietmar Kasper wrote: GM topbanders started at 10:00 not to miss KP4AA again but no luck. ZL and JA skimmer with low values and not reported from US. After 13:00 band opened a little to the southern US with one TX and 2x CA. Nothing from the north. WA7LNW showed good signal strength at his sunrise but no QSOs. We still have lot of thunderstorm crashes makes it hard to hear anybody. Signals below s5 are down in the noise undetectable. One hour before sunrise band opened to southern Europe - first time - with first YOs and some 9A, S5, SV, E7 before OH, SM and SP.Later some Ukraine but no LZ. Before sunrise peak signals became weak and disappeared. At sunrise some weak ON, F, G and GM were able to work and soon the band faded away. Good to have been here at the right time after low hours during the night. We will continue to be QRV in CQWW in M/M category, also on 160m with changing operators. For EU we may transmit below 1810 with split up to avoid QRM. 73 DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor-Leste
He was not hearing well. Took op 3-4 minutes to work K6NA who has very good 160m signal. He peaked 569 here for a short time. Waiting for the 160m FT8 to get the radio. Ray, N6VR/W7YA On Thu, Nov 23, 2023, 4:08 PM Darryl wrote: > Dietmar, > > I was able to copy you a little for an hour before my sunrise and you > dropped out just at sunrise. > > I called, along with about 8-10 others for about 30 minutes with no joy. > Back again tomorrow… > > Darryl K7UT > > > [K7UT LOGOTYPE.12.png] > > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor-Leste
Dietmar, I was able to copy you a little for an hour before my sunrise and you dropped out just at sunrise. I called, along with about 8-10 others for about 30 minutes with no joy. Back again tomorrow… Darryl K7UT [K7UT LOGOTYPE.12.png] _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report #8
GM topbanders started at 10:00 not to miss KP4AA again but no luck. ZL and JA skimmer with low values and not reported from US. After 13:00 band opened a little to the southern US with one TX and 2x CA. Nothing from the north. WA7LNW showed good signal strength at his sunrise but no QSOs. We still have lot of thunderstorm crashes makes it hard to hear anybody. Signals below s5 are down in the noise undetectable. One hour before sunrise band opened to southern Europe - first time - with first YOs and some 9A, S5, SV, E7 before OH, SM and SP.Later some Ukraine but no LZ. Before sunrise peak signals became weak and disappeared. At sunrise some weak ON, F, G and GM were able to work and soon the band faded away. Good to have been here at the right time after low hours during the night. We will continue to be QRV in CQWW in M/M category, also on 160m with changing operators. For EU we may transmit below 1810 with split up to avoid QRM. 73 DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste report #8
Hi Dietmar Was able to make a CW contact with ZL1AZ at his SS, 0715 UTC Thursday. I am in Northern New Jersey so an 8900 mile 2 way QSO to New Zealand. The propagation is there. Just need to get thru the noise (basically). I have a strong bias toward CW and only resort to FT8 when the DX station makes that the mode. The DX station controls the modes used for contacts so I only use FT8 when the DX contact leaves no other options. I only run 100 watts to a short inverted L now on 160 but will be in better shape with 1 KW and better antenna in the future as I see the band can be worked for much DX on CW with the right setup. Thanks for your efforts. Paul - W2NMI On 11/22/2023 4:43 PM, Dietmar Kasper wrote: GM topbanders propagation was not good. No US on CW but terrible crashes from thunderstorms between Singapore and Tarawa. The complete north was a thunderstorm, just see https://www.accuweather.com/en/tl/national/weather-radar Took my free time what actually was adicted to sleep to improve US beverage. It was extended in length and converted into a two wire beverage also to cover backside to Indian Ocean. Had to pay the price for extra sunshine and had to take some sleep in the evening, so missed the US time. As soon as I was away the station was hijacked by the FT-lovers to play their computer games. Spots show that computer cannot work US better as humans during thunderstorm crashes, so most contacts were loud JAs and US stations we already worked in CW. I feel like the last person on earth fighting for the CW mode on topband. However FT lovers were not seen when it came to put out the beverages, look for the noise source near the property or to reconstruct the beverages far away during hours and hours of hard labour. Originally it was planned to have another 160m antenna on second location but nobody wanted to do the work - is is so much easier to take over a good working CW station when the lonely after many nights tired person is away for a while. Band was closed most parts of the night but a few loud JAs (mostly dupes) called in. At sunrise we had a short opening starting with G4AMT followed by I3, ON, EI, DL, HB9 and then the sun was up and the band was dead again. These are the moments I like so much to do the real top band DX what you can hear and feel - and good to know lot of the person behind the call. Artificial intelligence just clicks the contact and goes ahead - obviously our future :-) OK - lets bring this DXpedition to an end and this will be my last entry in this group or in any other group mostly addicted to the FT modes. 73 Dietmar DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste report #8
Interestingly, conditions on the west coast seemed pretty good this morning around our sunrise. I was able to decode HS5NMF between -8 and -5 and 9M6NA got as high as +1. I suspect both could have been heard reasonably well on CW. OTOH, the QRN level on their end might have precluded 2-way contacts. Thank you for your efforts to keep CW alive on Topband, Dietmar. I do operate FT8. It does seem to make contacts possible that would not be possible on CW (all other things being equal), but I don't find it nearly as satisfying as a good CW contact. 73, Mike W4EF.. On 11/22/2023 1:43 PM, Dietmar Kasper wrote: GM topbanders propagation was not good. No US on CW but terrible crashes from thunderstorms between Singapore and Tarawa. The complete north was a thunderstorm, just see https://www.accuweather.com/en/tl/national/weather-radar Took my free time what actually was adicted to sleep to improve US beverage. It was extended in length and converted into a two wire beverage also to cover backside to Indian Ocean. Had to pay the price for extra sunshine and had to take some sleep in the evening, so missed the US time. As soon as I was away the station was hijacked by the FT-lovers to play their computer games. Spots show that computer cannot work US better as humans during thunderstorm crashes, so most contacts were loud JAs and US stations we already worked in CW. I feel like the last person on earth fighting for the CW mode on topband. However FT lovers were not seen when it came to put out the beverages, look for the noise source near the property or to reconstruct the beverages far away during hours and hours of hard labour. Originally it was planned to have another 160m antenna on second location but nobody wanted to do the work - is is so much easier to take over a good working CW station when the lonely after many nights tired person is away for a while. Band was closed most parts of the night but a few loud JAs (mostly dupes) called in. At sunrise we had a short opening starting with G4AMT followed by I3, ON, EI, DL, HB9 and then the sun was up and the band was dead again. These are the moments I like so much to do the real top band DX what you can hear and feel - and good to know lot of the person behind the call. Artificial intelligence just clicks the contact and goes ahead - obviously our future :-) OK - lets bring this DXpedition to an end and this will be my last entry in this group or in any other group mostly addicted to the FT modes. 73 Dietmar DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste report #8
On 11/22/2023 1:43 PM, Dietmar Kasper wrote: As soon as I was away the station was hijacked by the FT-lovers to play their computer games. It is long past time for us to grow past prejudices and learn to use new techniques. This all reminds me of the fighting against the adoption of that crazy new mode called SSB! I have been primarily a CW op all of my life, 67 years so far in ham radio. FT-modes are weak signal modes -- the digital encoding provides about 10 dB advantage over CW with great operators on both ends. They fight against the major enemy of our QSOs, noise of all sorts. Just as CW offers an advantage of about 10 dB over SSB. This is a VERY big deal, because man-made electrical noise has increased by 20 dB in the last two decades. All of these modes use radios, antennas, and propagation through the ionosphere. The operators still most build all of that stuff, do it well, understand all of it, and study propagation so that they know when to operate. George Wallner, AA7JV, one of the smartest guys doing DXpeditions in the last 20 years, studied the logs from many of his activations, and found that nearly all of the most difficult QSOs occurred during one or two nights of a 2-3 week expedition. George realized the advantage of FT8, and developed a system to diplex both CW and FT8 transmitters into the same TX antenna, and narrow bandpass filters for RX antennas. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report #8
GM topbanders propagation was not good. No US on CW but terrible crashes from thunderstorms between Singapore and Tarawa. The complete north was a thunderstorm, just see https://www.accuweather.com/en/tl/national/weather-radar Took my free time what actually was adicted to sleep to improve US beverage. It was extended in length and converted into a two wire beverage also to cover backside to Indian Ocean. Had to pay the price for extra sunshine and had to take some sleep in the evening, so missed the US time. As soon as I was away the station was hijacked by the FT-lovers to play their computer games. Spots show that computer cannot work US better as humans during thunderstorm crashes, so most contacts were loud JAs and US stations we already worked in CW. I feel like the last person on earth fighting for the CW mode on topband. However FT lovers were not seen when it came to put out the beverages, look for the noise source near the property or to reconstruct the beverages far away during hours and hours of hard labour. Originally it was planned to have another 160m antenna on second location but nobody wanted to do the work - is is so much easier to take over a good working CW station when the lonely after many nights tired person is away for a while. Band was closed most parts of the night but a few loud JAs (mostly dupes) called in. At sunrise we had a short opening starting with G4AMT followed by I3, ON, EI, DL, HB9 and then the sun was up and the band was dead again. These are the moments I like so much to do the real top band DX what you can hear and feel - and good to know lot of the person behind the call. Artificial intelligence just clicks the contact and goes ahead - obviously our future :-) OK - lets bring this DXpedition to an end and this will be my last entry in this group or in any other group mostly addicted to the FT modes. 73 Dietmar DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste report #7
Dietmar, I thought my morning (13:00-14:00 Z) was the best so far. I've been plagued with powerline noise from two sources, known to the power company, but still unrepaired. On several other mornings I have known you were there but knew it was pointless to call, given your power and antenna advantage over me. This morning I could hear your CQs so I called. We completed a QSO at 13:24 Z, 24 minutes before my SR. A few minutes later you were Q5 with my headphones laying on the desk. Ten minutes after our QSO I worked H44WA on FT8 on the first sequence. So I guess it depends on from what direction you are looking. Thank you for the QSO, I now have you on 160 and all HF bands on CW, and 25 slots total. Wes N7WS On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 02:36:04 PM MST, Dietmar Kasper wrote: GM topbanders Last night I thought it was the most worst night of the DXped but this night topped it. Made only about 30 CW QSOs and OE2VEL worked a few in FT8 but mostly stations we already had worked in CW. Actually the night started good with two times VE7 and W6 just after sunset, sorry was few minutes late to work KP4AA because dinner came too late. Worked N4WW with good signal but later signals dropped down. I see it when VE6WZ skimmer signal strength falls below 10dB it is pretty hard to hear anybody here in the tropic noise. Complete night we had terrible QRN from nearby thunderstorm causing s9 crashes all the time. There was almost no sunrise peak so all the callers remained in the noise. It only can become better. Still some time to continue 73 Dietmar DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report #7
GM topbanders Last night I thought it was the most worst night of the DXped but this night topped it. Made only about 30 CW QSOs and OE2VEL worked a few in FT8 but mostly stations we already had worked in CW. Actually the night started good with two times VE7 and W6 just after sunset, sorry was few minutes late to work KP4AA because dinner came too late. Worked N4WW with good signal but later signals dropped down. I see it when VE6WZ skimmer signal strength falls below 10dB it is pretty hard to hear anybody here in the tropic noise. Complete night we had terrible QRN from nearby thunderstorm causing s9 crashes all the time. There was almost no sunrise peak so all the callers remained in the noise. It only can become better. Still some time to continue 73 Dietmar DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: . Timor Leste report #6 (Dietmar Kasper)
_ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report #6
GM topbanders here the daily report. This was the night with the poorest propagation so far. 10 hours listening into the noise for 102 QSOs, however glad that I made it over 100. No east coast again but ZF9CW called at his sunrise and W4EF (Calif) were worked. Long periods of CQ without any QSO. After 13z wkd AA5C and AA0RS followed by some W6 VE5 and VE6, also 2 KL7s were worked the 3rd one got lost in the QRM. We again had a noisy night with thunderstorm crashes all evening long. After 15z the band closed completely with no signal for the next 4 hours. We now have worked over 1000 JA QSOs on topband, so the chance that a new JA calls is low. At 19:30 the band opened slowly with aurora sound to northern Germany, OH, LA, OZ, SM, YL - all around the baltic coast but pretty weak in the noise. Also 2 G stations were worked and oneON, but again no France or even further. A lucky YT3C called in for the first Serbian station and an IV3 however he made it. It is strange, that there is no propagation to southern Europe most nights. Still waiting for propagation change to give a fair chance to everybody. Whatever happened this morning, sun and magnetic field probably influenced it. I got request to stay longer after sunrise to give a chance to the North east corner of US but DXAtlas shows that this path is almost impossible at this phase of sun activity, even more as beverages to South west is full of QRM. We had a power cut in the night for 5 minutes and I checked all beverages and all were pretty clean for a moment but then the power came back. We have our own power station to run radios and amps, so this test was possible. Have to live with QRM and QRN and make the best of it For all who are still trying there is a new chance tomorrow night 73 Dietmar DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste report #5
Hello Dietmar, You have a amazing 160m station, nice job on your part.. I was lucky enough to work you on 160 meters from Florida the other night. I would love to see you on 80 Meters, hopefully on CW, but FT8 if conditions are not good. 73, Bruce, W8HW === On 11/18/2023 4:32 PM, Dietmar Kasper wrote: GM top banders last night was not productive into US. Again much QRN from thunderstorms down south. Was spotted by skimmer VE6WZ several times but it not resulted in QSOs. First little opening after 13z into W6 W7 area. At this time the band was silent so I was able now to copy K1PX who was trying so many nights A few other Ws but no VE, no KL, no KH6. Europe was weak at 13z at their sunset but a few QSOs were possible. After that the band faded again and was almost empty. I took half hour sleep while the robot tried to get stations in the log in this new mode, where it is said that this is the future of ham radio. Came back to CW and the band opened to Europe slowly. North Europe was favoured with OH, SM and some LA. One hour before sunrise good opening to DL again with lot of second and third level stations (someone insisted me using whatsapp to arrange these contacts, but I never have been on whatsapp nor in facebook .. I just know DLs and their calls :-) Few 9a and S5 and I think one SV but again nothing south from YO, LZ After the DLs a number of ONs was worked and the band opened also to SM and LA again. The morning ended with some G stations but the sunrise peak was only a weak one. Good to work some old friends like ON4WW, PA3FQA, LA7GIA, LA5HE, SM5GLC and DL2JRM. Slowly we get most of the active DX stations in the log. Beverages paid off a lot. time for the bed now - more later 73 Dietmar _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report #5
GM top banders last night was not productive into US. Again much QRN from thunderstorms down south. Was spotted by skimmer VE6WZ several times but it not resulted in QSOs. First little opening after 13z into W6 W7 area. At this time the band was silent so I was able now to copy K1PX who was trying so many nights A few other Ws but no VE, no KL, no KH6. Europe was weak at 13z at their sunset but a few QSOs were possible. After that the band faded again and was almost empty. I took half hour sleep while the robot tried to get stations in the log in this new mode, where it is said that this is the future of ham radio. Came back to CW and the band opened to Europe slowly. North Europe was favoured with OH, SM and some LA. One hour before sunrise good opening to DL again with lot of second and third level stations (someone insisted me using whatsapp to arrange these contacts, but I never have been on whatsapp nor in facebook .. I just know DLs and their calls :-) Few 9a and S5 and I think one SV but again nothing south from YO, LZ After the DLs a number of ONs was worked and the band opened also to SM and LA again. The morning ended with some G stations but the sunrise peak was only a weak one. Good to work some old friends like ON4WW, PA3FQA, LA7GIA, LA5HE, SM5GLC and DL2JRM. Slowly we get most of the active DX stations in the log. Beverages paid off a lot. time for the bed now - more later 73 Dietmar _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report #4
Hi topbanders another interesting night is over. Band opened late. I had been there before sunset already and heard AA7JV/mm with weak CQ. Skimmers did not pick me up long time. Night started slow. Yesterday we again had rain showers coming over the mountains from the south. Rain brings QRN and crashes. Very difficult copy so most of the weak W4s and 5s were call sign guessing. Sometimes I only missed one letter but the crash always happened at the wrong moment - again and again. VE6WZ skimmer picked me up before WA7LNW. After W4s some W5s followed, nothing heard from 8,9 area. After 13z again the band seemed to close but shortly extreme loud W7s called and I worked some of the VE5, 6, 7 and VY0SS. Missed KL7 heard pfx but unable to get the suffix. After west coast had closed worked our Lagunaria team leader DL1MGB from DK6WL station at his sunset. Later the band closed completely - not a single signal heard anymore. Read complains about bad RX in cluster, so checked the beverages. I even took a light and made the 500 meters through the bushes during night to visit the EU beverage. I think (hope) there are no bad animals out there in the bush. If they exist they did not expect me running through in the night. Could not find anything wrong with beverage but 80m also complained that the band is totally empty. Turned the radio down to a radio station at 1611. I checked all beverages, changed the pre-amplifier and proved the wiring - all OK so far. Slowly the band got back into life. Started with OH, went over the north to OZ, GM and back through ON to Northern DL. Moved down south to East Germany, short detected by DF2CK skimmer and then westward to Frankfurt area. Worked a bigger number of DLs. It was not bad habit only to work DLs the propagation was just there. Finally propagation switched to ON, later to F and ended up in EA3. 15 minutes after sunset the band faded here. Heard stations still calling but deep in the noise. When it comes to the RX capabilities, dont forget that we are here at 8 degrees south in the center of the thunderstorm area. You are up in the north in clear winter time with mostly excellent receiving (if you are not QRMd by city/village). Its much easier to listen to my signal for you than listening for you where dozen of stations calling without stop in the noise all together on one QRG. You increase your chances if you move away from crowded frequencies. Thats for now, hope more such productive night will follow. There is still a lot of folks without 160m QSO 73 Dietmar DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste Nov 17 ( Dietmar Kasper)
That's fine if radio is your only interest in life. We're much happier here. 73, Jim K9YC On 11/17/2023 7:16 AM, mstang...@comcast.net wrote: Jim, You should have stayed in Illinois and bought some farmland downstate on the Mississippi. I moved from a city lot in New York to an acre lot in New Jersey a couple of miles from the ocean. When I moved here 23 years ago I was surrounded by gentleman farmers and noise level much lower . I was was successful on 160 with 100 watts and an inverted L against radials. The noise level has steadily increased and some farms have been replaced by townhouses. 73 Mike N2MS On 11/16/2023 3:19 PM EST Jim Brown wrote: On 11/16/2023 10:07 AM, Salvatore Borace wrote: Hi Dietmar, dont pay attention for many lazy people want FT8 Salvatore, FT8 is a weak signal mode, providing the advantage of about 15 dB more noise rejection than CW. From my QTH near San Francisco, I haven't heard EU on CW for 3 years; in 8 years, I've heard 6 EU stations, and two have heard me. When I moved here from Chicago in 2006, I was able to work EU on CW. The difference is MUCH louder noise on both ends of the QSO. All with the same TX and RX antennas, including a 100 ft Tee-vertical, a 550 ft Beverage to EU, and a two-element array of phased loops spaced 5/8 wavelength. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste Nov 17 ( Dietmar Kasper)
Jim, You should have stayed in Illinois and bought some farmland downstate on the Mississippi. I moved from a city lot in New York to an acre lot in New Jersey a couple of miles from the ocean. When I moved here 23 years ago I was surrounded by gentleman farmers and noise level much lower . I was was successful on 160 with 100 watts and an inverted L against radials. The noise level has steadily increased and some farms have been replaced by townhouses. 73 Mike N2MS > On 11/16/2023 3:19 PM EST Jim Brown wrote: > > > On 11/16/2023 10:07 AM, Salvatore Borace wrote: > > Hi Dietmar, dont pay attention for many lazy people want FT8 > > Salvatore, > > FT8 is a weak signal mode, providing the advantage of about 15 dB more > noise rejection than CW. From my QTH near San Francisco, I haven't heard > EU on CW for 3 years; in 8 years, I've heard 6 EU stations, and two have > heard me. When I moved here from Chicago in 2006, I was able to work EU > on CW. The difference is MUCH louder noise on both ends of the QSO. > > All with the same TX and RX antennas, including a 100 ft Tee-vertical, a > 550 ft Beverage to EU, and a two-element array of phased loops spaced > 5/8 wavelength. > > 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste Nov 17 ( Dietmar Kasper)
On 11/16/2023 10:07 AM, Salvatore Borace wrote: Hi Dietmar, dont pay attention for many lazy people want FT8 Salvatore, FT8 is a weak signal mode, providing the advantage of about 15 dB more noise rejection than CW. From my QTH near San Francisco, I haven't heard EU on CW for 3 years; in 8 years, I've heard 6 EU stations, and two have heard me. When I moved here from Chicago in 2006, I was able to work EU on CW. The difference is MUCH louder noise on both ends of the QSO. All with the same TX and RX antennas, including a 100 ft Tee-vertical, a 550 ft Beverage to EU, and a two-element array of phased loops spaced 5/8 wavelength. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Timor Leste Nov 17 ( Dietmar Kasper)
Hi Dietmar, dont pay attention for many lazy people want FT8 on TB, anyway i have good copy of you mostly every evening but unfortunatly this time i running only 100w, Hope condition improve and i'm lucky like 80m where i make qso with my 100w. Rino _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report Nov 17
Hi topbanders. Propagation has become worse. After making a new remote US beverage out of the village we today built another remote EU beverage. It is silent, too silent ? Feeding 75 Ohms TV cable is about 450 meters long. At the evening I needed a break, so station was taken over by another operator to try FT8. He mostly worked JA and a few US we almost have worked the night before in CW. The source of noise we were able to detect by turning the 6m beam. It is the village power distribution :-( Back to the band now but 160m is completely dead. Listened to VK6LW who was CQing for while but worked nobody. A pity, so I cannot test new EU beverage. 80m op stated, that it workes, 80m is open a little bit. In cluster I read anonymus complaint about only working FT8 for NA and Asia. The situation is that we are running FT8 when CW does not result in any contacts. Why not to EU ? I myself did not and will not work any FT8. Same as I have to accept that some people use this mode they must accept vise versa that I dont work FT8. Our operator does but he stops when he go sleep. He runs 160m FT8 attended. As I know DXCC rule state that automatic contacts do not count for DXCC so station must be attended during traffic. I have heard that some DXped dont care about it and running the station unattended because there is no way of proof, BUT WE DO CARE. With better RX capabilities also the EU demand will be reduced for sure. I am impatient the band may open soon. 73 Dietmar DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report 3
New kid in town :-) We have a new US beverage, did you find out last night ? Beeing unhappy with the results so far I tested a new temporary beverage. Thank you for your comments so far I read with interest. Sorry that I cannot answer to every individual mail. The starter of experiment was one mail writing "a short beverage is better than no beverage". So I put lots of 75 Ohms TV cable together to get out of the village, closest point is now 300 meter and the further end of the beverage is about 450 meter. I did not want to use again days and days to cut a trail into the bushes. I put up the antenna along the coast line, more or less US short path. Beverages above good ground do not work, never over salt water. But this beverage is mounted parallel to the ocean line, where the wet sand ends and the dry sand starts. It was just an experiment. It seems experiment was successfull. Never worked so many US last night compared to the nights before. The beverage is still ugly, quick and dirty only 2 feet above ground almost hanging down to the ground. As one of the mail said I say "better an ugly but working beverage outside village than a nice looking beverage inside village with poor results." Now up to the other beverages - EU and US longpath. Sorry we did all the hard work for almost nothing and have to redesign the complete system. More to follow next nights 73 DXX btw: bad stucky internet sometimes loses QSO over livestream. Before your bloodpressure gets to high just keep cool and wait a day. We always upload the complete data again to Clublog, so your contact may show up later _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Timor Leste report 2
Next Timor Leste report some team members were unhappy with topband results and with continuous bad propagation the pressure to me to accept working FT8 has been getting immense. We had a serious discussion about so I gave up finally and let the daemon out of the box of Pandora. FT mode in equatorial noise seems not to be the big game changer. Some new stations came into the log, even some US we did not have before but I would say most of the stations showed up in that mode we had already worked in CW. Lot of Japan. Our different point of view concerning resulted in a stop of 160m operation around 12z. The violent discussion ended with the decission to continue in CW but to allow FT8 if no CW contacts are possible for a while. Sorry that we missed some US that way. Well, we now have data we can analyze later to see what FT mode can and what not. Propagation to US have been even better as the day before. THe evening started with a heavy 30min rain shower setting the property under water. Short after sunset the band was open to all over US with the exception of the North East. After 13z the band faded and again we were able to see it in reversebeacon.net checking wa7lnw. new spotter ka7oei and once w6yx added to the list. Almost no US west coast although I believed in advance that would be the easier path to US. If you west coast ops stand up at your sunrise you will miss that country. During night wind brought huge waves from the ocean. The 160m matchbox got under water and started arcing, so operation had to be stopped. Fortunately the Titanex vertical itself resisted the waves so operation was continued. I felt, that the big man ruling the propagation must have been unhappy about FT operation :-) However Europe propagation is the big problem of the last few days. Almost no skimmer spots from Europe, just some deserving callers continued to call us night after night. Hope for the big improvement of propagation. 73 more later DL3DXX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
