Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  new
 Priority:  Low  |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+
Changes (by cohosh):

 * status:  assigned => new


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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  Low  |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--
Changes (by cohosh):

 * priority:  High => Low
 * owner:  cohosh => (none)


Comment:

 I'm going to recommend shelving this for now. We have a lot of
 dependencies and they're quickly changing. Let's wait until snowflake is
 more stable to move forward.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by eighthave):

 Circular dependencies are supported in Debian packages, but it can be a
 bit painful to manage if there are multiple.  As part of our work on the
 Debian Android Tools Team, we have to manage interwoven circular
 dependencies. We have organized the package update process into stages to
 manage it:
 https://wiki.debian.org/AndroidTools#Updating_the_source_packages

 Basically, you'll have to bootstrap the circular deps by uploading a
 limited version of A that is enough to build B, then uploading the full
 version of the B, then uploading the full version of A.  Each time the API
 changes, then you'll have to do this process again.  If the API stays the
 same, then this bootstrapping procedure only needs to happen at the
 beginning.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by anarcat):

 >  honestly i'm a bit surprised more dependencies aren't coming up. Is
 dh_make_golang conservative in the dependencies it says are missing and
 we'll find more once we start building it?

 I'm not sure it recurses into those dependencies.

 Who's that "pion" anyways? :)

 >  I also noticed in this process that some of the dependencies are
 circular (e.g., pion/turn requires pion/stun and vice versa). Will this
 cause problems?

 There's a bootstrapping problem, for sure, as you need one source package
 to build the other. But if you can manage it locally, when both packages
 are uploaded at once, it should just work.

 >  There's also some cases where some dependencies require different
 versions of the same dependency (e.g., pion/rtp v1.3.2 and v1.3.0 are
 required).

 That's something that should be resolved upstream anyways, shouldn't it?

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by cohosh):

 Replying to [comment:24 anarcat]:
 > >  Anarcat: one other thing you could do here that would be really
 helpful: give cohosh some intuition about how much future ongoing misery
 she's signing herself up for, by offering to help package/maintain the set
 of go libs she'll depend on. With that knowledge, the anti-censorship team
 should think about whether signing up for that commitment is the best use
 of their limited time -- or said another way, how to make things scale
 well enough for the future.
 >
 > I think that really depends on how popular those libs are and how many
 they are. I wouldn't commit to an answer before looking deeper into that.
 :)

 `dh_make_golang` is telling me we need to packetize the following:
 {{{
 itp-golang-github-pion-datachannel.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-dtls.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-ice.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-logging.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-mdns.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-rtcp.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-rtp.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-sctp.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-sdp.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-srtp.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-stun.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-transport.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-turn.txt
 itp-golang-github-pion-webrtc.txt
 itp-snowflake.git.txt
 }}}
 honestly i'm a bit surprised more dependencies aren't coming up. Is
 `dh_make_golang` conservative in the dependencies it says are missing and
 we'll find more once we start building it?

 I also noticed in this process that some of the dependencies are circular
 (e.g., pion/turn requires pion/stun and vice versa). Will this cause
 problems?

 There's also some cases where some dependencies require different versions
 of the same dependency (e.g., pion/rtp v1.3.2 and v1.3.0 are required).

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by anarcat):

 >  Anarcat: one other thing you could do here that would be really
 helpful: give cohosh some intuition about how much future ongoing misery
 she's signing herself up for, by offering to help package/maintain the set
 of go libs she'll depend on. With that knowledge, the anti-censorship team
 should think about whether signing up for that commitment is the best use
 of their limited time -- or said another way, how to make things scale
 well enough for the future.

 I think that really depends on how popular those libs are and how many
 they are. I wouldn't commit to an answer before looking deeper into that.
 :)

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by arma):

 Replying to [comment:21 anarcat]:
 > golang is still statically linked in Debian, just like everywhere else,
 because the upstream tooling for dynamic linking is non-existent

 Ah ha, right, great.

 So that means definitely smart to get set up with the Debian go team,
 because they will need to know that here is yet another package that needs
 to get rebuilt whenever there's a security update to one of its go libs.

 > >  One of the awesome things about a snowflake deb (i.e. a deb that lets
 people become snowflakes) would be that you just install the deb and it
 magically works from there -- no editing text files, no opening ports, no
 installing tor, etc. Basically all the features of having a Snowflake
 browser extension, but now also in the (headless) deb package world.
 >
 > ... that sometimes involves a lot of tricky debian packaging tricks. It
 is much easier to do this when upstream already provides tools to do that
 hard stuff ("edit text file", "open port" (?), "configure tor")...

 We're in luck! I'm not doing the bad idea of saying "oh we'll just
 automate all of that in the deb somehow". I'm saying that snowflake, by
 design, doesn't need it: there are no text files to edit, it only makes
 outgoing connections so nothing needs to mess with port forwarding, it
 doesn't use tor, etc.

 So I think we won't need the tricky debian packaging tricks here either.
 :)

 > Let me know if you have any other questions: I have packaged a few
 golang libraries and one binary in Debian and learned some of the ropes,
 so I can help. (Hey, and look at that - I *am* part of the golang team, so
 you got a team member to ask right here. ;)

 Anarcat: one other thing you could do here that would be really helpful:
 give cohosh some intuition about how much future ongoing misery she's
 signing herself up for, by offering to help package/maintain the set of go
 libs she'll depend on. With that knowledge, the anti-censorship team
 should think about whether signing up for that commitment is the best use
 of their limited time -- or said another way, how to make things scale
 well enough for the future.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by cohosh):

 I opened an ITP for Snowflake here: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-
 bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=954176

 I'll work on ITPs for the dependencies as well :)

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by anarcat):

 >  Maybe there's a way to package it with some of the dependencies (using
 go mod vendor)?

 That's certainly possible, but frowned upon in Debian. In general, we try
 to package libs separately to alleviate the maintenance burden on the
 release and security teams (as they may need to update those packages in
 the future). Golang is special, unfortunately, there are a number of
 issues with Debian packaging of golang that make that harder:

 https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianGoTeam/2020/GoEcosystemIssues

 ... nothing you need to worry about here, though: we should still pretend
 that golang is like everyone else and that we can't just vendor everything
 that way.

 > And then you will pull in all eighteen-or-whatever go lib debs when you
 install your snowflake deb.

 That, however, is not quite accurate: golang is still statically linked in
 Debian, just like everywhere else, because the upstream tooling for
 dynamic linking is non-existent (or at least non-existent enough that it
 just doesn't work - Ubuntu tried it and failed). So everything is, in
 fact, "vendored in", from a binary perspective.

 >  We can't be the only group in Debian considering packaging a go thing
 that pulls in a bunch of dependencies. We should figure out who in Debian
 is maintaining the go lib debs, and see what their plans are. Maybe there
 is already a critical mass somewhere of people who want to package and
 maintain go libs.

 The trick here is to open a bug report in the Debian BTS
 (https://bugs.debian.org/) for each package and each of its dependencies.
 That way duplicate efforts are avoided.

 There's a magic command called `dh-make-golang` which will build a
 skeleton debian package of your golang module, and will show which
 dependencies are missing. Then you run `dh-make-golang` on those,
 recursively, until you're done. Each of those invocations gives you an
 "ITP" (Intent To Package) email template that you then send to the BTS and
 use to update your progress. When you're done with a package, you find a
 sponsor (ie. a debian member, e.g. yes me or weasel, or talk to
 https://mentors.debian.net) to get your package into unstable, and you're
 basically done (until you need an update).

 >  One of the awesome things about a snowflake deb (i.e. a deb that lets
 people become snowflakes) would be that you just install the deb and it
 magically works from there -- no editing text files, no opening ports, no
 installing tor, etc. Basically all the features of having a Snowflake
 browser extension, but now also in the (headless) deb package world.

 ... that sometimes involves a lot of tricky debian packaging tricks. It is
 much easier to do this when upstream already provides tools to do that
 hard stuff ("edit text file", "open port" (?), "configure tor")...

 > Debian teams have a standardized package template and workflow. It is
 important to follow these, otherwise you will not receive maintenance work
 from the team. Custom packaging methods are just too time consuming to
 maintain.

 Ideally, yes, you get the golang team involved and the package is assigned
 to the team so it falls under their umbrella. This is particularly
 relevant for dependencies that might be used by other packages as well.
 However I'm not sure it's relevant for snowflake itself, because it's
 specific to us (tor).

 Let me know if you have any other questions: I have packaged a few golang
 libraries and one binary in Debian and learned some of the ropes, so I can
 help. (Hey, and look at that - I *am* part of the golang team, so you got
 a team member to ask right here. ;)

 Cheers!

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by eighthave):

 All of the libs need to be packaged in Debian first.  Vendoring is
 strongly discouraged and only allowed as a last resort, e.g. if a program
 needs a custom version of a lib where the maintainer of that lib has
 rejected the required patches.

 There are two relevant Debian teams for this:
 * Debian Go Packaging: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=pkg-go-
 maintainers%40lists.alioth.debian.org
 * Debian Privacy Tools: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=pkg-
 privacy-maintainers%40lists.alioth.debian.org

 I would email the Debian teams with questions and an outline of the work
 you want to do (with Debian you don't have to subscribe to post messages
 usually).

 Debian teams have a standardized package template and workflow.  It is
 important to follow these, otherwise you will not receive maintenance work
 from the team.  Custom packaging methods are just too time consuming to
 maintain.  The Go Team has documentation too:
 https://go-team.pages.debian.net/

 Looks like they are on IRC too, so try them there.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by arma):

 Replying to [comment:14 cohosh]:
 > - a standalone proxy go instance so more people can run them

 One of the awesome things about a snowflake deb (i.e. a deb that lets
 people become snowflakes) would be that you just install the deb and it
 magically works from there -- no editing text files, no opening ports, no
 installing tor, etc. Basically all the features of having a Snowflake
 browser extension, but now also in the (headless) deb package world.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by arma):

 I think the traditional debian approach is to actually, yes, make a deb
 for each go lib. And then you will pull in all eighteen-or-whatever go lib
 debs when you install your snowflake deb.

 We can't be the only group in Debian considering packaging a go thing that
 pulls in a bunch of dependencies. We should figure out who in Debian is
 maintaining the go lib debs, and see what their plans are. Maybe there is
 already a critical mass somewhere of people who want to package and
 maintain go libs.

 I bet anarcat or weasel or the Tails devs can help us find the right Go
 person inside Debian.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--
Changes (by catalyst):

 * cc: catalyst (added)


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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--

Comment (by cohosh):

 I've been looking into this a bit, and using the
 [https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/obfs4proxy obfs4proxy] package as a
 starting point.

 From what I can tell, the proper way to go about making debian packages of
 go applications is to also ensure that all of the go libraries the
 application depends on (those in `go.mod`) are also debian packages. See
 [https://go-team.pages.debian.net/packaging.html this resource] for info
 on making Go packages. This seems to be true for the obfs4proxy
 dependencies, but Snowflake has a much larger
 [https://gitweb.torproject.org/pluggable-
 transports/snowflake.git/tree/go.sum chain of dependencies] at the moment.
 I don't think we'd need everything in `go.sum`, but probably most of them.

 Maybe there's a way to package it with some of the dependencies (using `go
 mod vendor`)?

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+--
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  cohosh
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  assigned
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+--
Changes (by cohosh):

 * owner:  (none) => cohosh
 * status:  new => assigned


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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  new
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+

Comment (by cohosh):

 It would be nice to make some progress on this. Seems like we'd want two
 packages:
 - a snowflake client so that other tools can more easily integrate
 Snowflake into their stuff
 - a standalone proxy go instance so more people can run them and get
 automatic updates (#32677)

 From what I can tell, libwebrtc was a blocker on this before. Since #28942
 we've moved to a pure go implementation of WebRTC that is all open source.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  new
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+
Changes (by cohosh):

 * cc: cohosh (added)


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Re: [tor-bugs] #19409 [Circumvention/Snowflake]: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#19409: Make a deb of snowflake and get into Debian
-+
 Reporter:  adrelanos|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  enhancement  | Status:  new
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:
Component:  Circumvention/Snowflake  |Version:
 Severity:  Major| Resolution:
 Keywords:   |  Actual Points:
Parent ID:   | Points:
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+

Comment (by cypherpunks):

 Any update on this ticket?

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