Re: [tor-dev] Proposal for improving social incentives for relay operators
On Mon, Jun 09, 2014 at 05:26:28PM -0700, Virgil Griffith wrote: I propose the following system for harnessing warm glow and reputation for Tor relay operators. Hi Virgil, I agree with your direction here, and I'd love to see some more work on it. In fact, the per relay page idea is nearly in place -- I think if we add some elements to the atlas and globe pages for relays, to show their total contribution, ranking, etc, we will be a lot closer to your goal. The overall ranking page idea has gotten lost lately though. We used to have the torstatus pages (e.g. blutmagie), but they've been unmaintained for a long time. Tools like Atlas and Globe don't replace that public reward aspect because there's no master page where you can see at a glance who you should be impressed by. Compass is a bit closer, but still not quite it. So I'd suggest the following next steps: * Figure out what metrics we should use to quantify useful contribution, and make sure Karsten's onionoo can tell them to us. Add entries for them to the atlas/globe pages. * Make some new pages where you can get a list of relays sorted by those metrics. This is the sort of topic where it would be best to get some excited new people involved, rather than trying to load down e.g. Karsten more. Also, don't underestimate the difficulty of choosing the right metrics. And also try to avoid the trap where somebody writes something and then disappears and then you realize you wanted a slightly different metric but nobody knows how to modify the code. :) --Roger ___ tor-dev mailing list tor-dev@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev
Re: [tor-dev] Proposal for improving social incentives for relay operators
Am 2014-06-10 02:26, schrieb Virgil Griffith: For a while I've been seeking to grow the Tor network in both size and goodput. Towards this end, I've explored various avenues such as increasing user-awareness via tor2web. More recently, I've been exploring financial incentives like TorCoin. Not wanting to strictly limit ourselves to financial incentives, I began reading the literature on incentivizing volunteers. The most relevant papers I found are: * http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/LMS2_ManSci-Paper-Final.pdf * http://pareto.uab.es/~prey/gneezy_254.pdf * https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3308162/Slonim%202013.pdf The most relevant of these papers (Lacetera 2013) cites the major motivations for volunteer labor are: pure altruism, warm glow, self-image, and reputation. Upon reading this I realized TorCoin's technical interestingness had blinded me to much easier to leverage motivations of warm glow and reputation. I propose the following system for harnessing warm glow and reputation for Tor relay operators. I am willing to fund this in its entirety. I propose establishing a subdomain on torproject.org http://torproject.org giving each Tor relay operator (hereafter affectionately called Torati) his/her own page using the information her machines provide to the Tor Directory Consensus. The fields to show on her Torati profile page would be things like: ContactInfo, PGP fingerprint, list of server nicknames, date the Directory Authorities first saw her contact info, etc. You can also imagine a receiving special special recognition stars for operating an exit or bridge node. Moreover, some bandwidth measurement like EigenSpeed or TorCoin gain traction, the Torati page could recognize contributors with by listing the sum total she has relayed to the Tor network. Naturally a node can opt-out of Torati recognition by setting a parameter in the torrc file. I argue this would be a cheap and easy way to motivate operators to volunteer more bandwidth for the Tor network. As mentioned before, I am willing to fund this in its entirety. -Virgil That'd be really awesome indeed. Thanks for these thoughts. I love ideas on how to motivate people to run relays. Even if not applicable here, I'd like to point out one issue with getting paid for running relays. In many laws (in europe at least) it is crucial for relay-operators NOT to recieve any money for running a relay. It's the base why we don't fall under complicated regulations and can work with general laws instead. Just keep in mind, getting paid (for your benefit) for running relays can hurt. thanks, martin ___ tor-dev mailing list tor-dev@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev ___ tor-dev mailing list tor-dev@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev
Re: [tor-dev] Proposal for improving social incentives for relay operators
The torcoin idea is SUSPICIOUS (and makes me think of a thousand conspiracy theories). What is torcoin? How can I most effectively and systematically completely destroy this idea? The good news is that we don't need it, it's not endorsed by the Tor Project... and it'll never work. The non-financial-incentivizing ideas in your post sound OK... perhaps a bit unnecessary. Sincerely, David On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 12:26 AM, Virgil Griffith i...@virgil.gr wrote: For a while I've been seeking to grow the Tor network in both size and goodput. Towards this end, I've explored various avenues such as increasing user-awareness via tor2web. More recently, I've been exploring financial incentives like TorCoin. Not wanting to strictly limit ourselves to financial incentives, I began reading the literature on incentivizing volunteers. The most relevant papers I found are: * http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/LMS2_ManSci-Paper-Final.pdf * http://pareto.uab.es/~prey/gneezy_254.pdf * https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3308162/Slonim%202013.pdf The most relevant of these papers (Lacetera 2013) cites the major motivations for volunteer labor are: pure altruism, warm glow, self-image, and reputation. Upon reading this I realized TorCoin's technical interestingness had blinded me to much easier to leverage motivations of warm glow and reputation. I propose the following system for harnessing warm glow and reputation for Tor relay operators. I am willing to fund this in its entirety. I propose establishing a subdomain on torproject.org giving each Tor relay operator (hereafter affectionately called Torati) his/her own page using the information her machines provide to the Tor Directory Consensus. The fields to show on her Torati profile page would be things like: ContactInfo, PGP fingerprint, list of server nicknames, date the Directory Authorities first saw her contact info, etc. You can also imagine a receiving special special recognition stars for operating an exit or bridge node. Moreover, some bandwidth measurement like EigenSpeed or TorCoin gain traction, the Torati page could recognize contributors with by listing the sum total she has relayed to the Tor network. Naturally a node can opt-out of Torati recognition by setting a parameter in the torrc file. I argue this would be a cheap and easy way to motivate operators to volunteer more bandwidth for the Tor network. As mentioned before, I am willing to fund this in its entirety. -Virgil ___ tor-dev mailing list tor-dev@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev ___ tor-dev mailing list tor-dev@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev
Re: [tor-dev] Proposal for improving social incentives for relay operators
Also, theconcept of naming authorities is about to be phased out [1], so better not build new services that rely on nicknames. Karsten I love you. Not only do you have fine ideas, you are the greatest feedback provider in the world. Agreed 100%. Replace key-by-nickname with key-by-fingerprint. Not crazy about having a a separate Torati name space, but meh, you do what you have to. Maybe make the nicknames a version 2.0 feature. (Could always make a namespace integration with google+! Har.) Okay. See Andrew's concerns about avoiding words having Tor in them. I will find a name that doesn't explicitly invoke Tor. -V ___ tor-dev mailing list tor-dev@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev
Re: [tor-dev] Proposal for improving social incentives for relay operators
[Attempting to move this discussion to tor-dev@ to avoid cross-posting; assuming my Reply-To: header won't get eaten by Mailman..] On 10/06/14 02:26, Virgil Griffith wrote: For a while I've been seeking to grow the Tor network in both size and goodput. Towards this end, I've explored various avenues such as increasing user-awareness via tor2web. More recently, I've been exploring financial incentives like TorCoin. Not wanting to strictly limit ourselves to financial incentives, I began reading the literature on incentivizing volunteers. The most relevant papers I found are: * http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/LMS2_ManSci-Paper-Final.pdf * http://pareto.uab.es/~prey/gneezy_254.pdf * https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3308162/Slonim%202013.pdf (The last link is a 404.) The most relevant of these papers (Lacetera 2013) cites the major motivations for volunteer labor are: pure altruism, warm glow, self-image, and reputation. Upon reading this I realized TorCoin's technical interestingness had blinded me to much easier to leverage motivations of warm glow and reputation. I propose the following system for harnessing warm glow and reputation for Tor relay operators. I am willing to fund this in its entirety. I propose establishing a subdomain on torproject.org giving each Tor relay operator (hereafter affectionately called Torati) his/her own page using the information her machines provide to the Tor Directory Consensus. The fields to show on her Torati profile page would be things like: ContactInfo, PGP fingerprint, list of server nicknames, date the Directory Authorities first saw her contact info, etc. You can also imagine a receiving special special recognition stars for operating an exit or bridge node. Moreover, some bandwidth measurement like EigenSpeed or TorCoin gain traction, the Torati page could recognize contributors with by listing the sum total she has relayed to the Tor network. Naturally a node can opt-out of Torati recognition by setting a parameter in the torrc file. I argue this would be a cheap and easy way to motivate operators to volunteer more bandwidth for the Tor network. As mentioned before, I am willing to fund this in its entirety. Hi Virgil, adding more/better incentives for people to run relays and bridges sounds like a great plan! What you describe sounds related to what I suggested last December on this list: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2013-December/005948.html 9. Provide relay comparison metrics in Onionoo. We could define some simple metrics on the usefulness of a relay, like provided bandwidth or uptime, in comparison to other relays. A possible statement from these metrics could be: your relay provides more bandwidth than 95% of relays in the network. Similar to 8. If Atlas [6] or Globe [8] or a yet-to-be-written Facebook application or a also-yet-to-be-written Twitter integration into Tor Weather (#10372) tell the world how successful someone's running Tor relays, maybe that encourages others to run relays, too. We could even invent a points system for running relays, with additional points for running exits, if that makes the Tor network better. Probably needs input from a community coordinator person. (Orange part in the diagram.) [6] https://atlas.torproject.org/ [8] https://globe.torproject.org/ Want to take a look at Onionoo and see whether it already provides the information and functionality you need, and if not, open tickets for the missing pieces? https://onionoo.torproject.org/ But let me also give you some quick feedback on your proposal: - Why not make it entirely opt-in? We could include a subscription link in Weather's welcome messages that relay operators receive when their relay first receives the Stable flag. - Where does the name Torati originate from? All the best, Karsten ___ tor-dev mailing list tor-dev@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-dev
