Re: [tor-relays] VPS for Exits

[Tristan]

The problem with Pulse is that they use OVH, and that service is already
heavily saturated with Tor nodes.
On May 25, 2016 5:32 PM, "Jesse V"  wrote:

>
> You can add Pulse Servers to the list. I think they are happy as long as
> you don't use an excessive amount of bandwidth per month. A rough
> estimate of the maximum is 10 TB per month per tier, but less is better.
>
> --
> Jesse V
>
>
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Re: [tor-relays] VPS for Exits

[Jesse V]

You can add Pulse Servers to the list. I think they are happy as long as
you don't use an excessive amount of bandwidth per month. A rough
estimate of the maximum is 10 TB per month per tier, but less is better.

-- 
Jesse V



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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Paul Syverson]

In case it helps, here is a paper describing vulenrability of
different classes of Tor user behavior to AS, Internet Exchange Point, and
Tor relay or relay family adversaries.
http://www.nrl.navy.mil/itd/chacs/biblio/users-get-routed-traffic-correlation-tor-realistic-adversaries

Note that doing AS-aware routing so as to improve security is a fairly
active area of research. Nonetheless, I think the original point about
hosting providers having physical access to hardware with keys from many
independently-run relays has not been amongst the considerations. It
is countered somewhat by even current Tor's default routing algorithm
that prevents choosing relays in the same circuit from the same family
but also from the same range of IP addresses. But it hasn't been scrutinized
specifically as far as I know.

And here is a paper giving a framework to be able and talk about and
use expectations of adversaries at the above places, and on undersea cables,
via mutual legal assistance treaties, etc. (Note that this is research.
It is some years away from anything like this being deployed in Tor. And
trying to design trust policies and routing algorithms for your own
Tor traffic is not something even an expert should try at this stage
of development.)
http://www.nrl.navy.mil/itd/chacs/jaggard-2-league-under-sea-anonymous-communication-trust-mlats-and-undersea-cables-proceedings

HTH,
Paul


On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 10:41:22PM +0200, pa011 wrote:
> @Green
> Thank you - couldn’t handle 'attack vector' as a synonym for ""method or
> type of attack" :-)
> 
> Additional to that is it clever for a supporter of TOR to to run more
> than one Relay (Exit) with a single ISP or even AS
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_system_(Internet) or does this
> build a kind of new attack vector?
> 
> 
> 
> Am 25.05.2016 um 22:22 schrieb Green Dream:
> > @Paul: sure. Nils pointed out that a lot of relays using the same
> > hosting provider could be an attack vector, because the provider would
> > be a single point where all the relays' secret keys could be collected.
> > My point is that if you look at the AS (Autonomous System) Number, it's
> > normally the same for all the hosting provider's servers in that
> > country. So if Tor path selection looks at the AS, and avoids building a
> > circuit that uses two nodes from the same AS, this attack vector
> > basically goes away. It's worth noting if you weren't already aware,
> > both Atlas and Globe display the AS Number for every relay.
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Green Dream]

@Paul: sure. Nils pointed out that a lot of relays using the same hosting
provider could be an attack vector, because the provider would be a single
point where all the relays' secret keys could be collected. My point is
that if you look at the AS (Autonomous System) Number, it's normally the
same for all the hosting provider's servers in that country. So if Tor path
selection looks at the AS, and avoids building a circuit that uses two
nodes from the same AS, this attack vector basically goes away. It's worth
noting if you weren't already aware, both Atlas and Globe display the AS
Number for every relay.
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[pa011]

@Green

Could please explain a bit more what you mean by "Avoiding using two
nodes from the same AS would seemingly go a long way toward mitigating
the attack vector you mentioned though."

Thanks
Paul

Am 25.05.2016 um 21:22 schrieb Green Dream:
> @Nils
> 
> Tor path selection avoids using relays from the same /16 subnet, and I
> thought it considered the Autonomous System (AS) as well. However now
> I'm not finding concrete evidence that path selection looks at AS. I
> found some older academic papers on the subject [1], but nothing in the
> current specification [2].
> 
> Avoiding using two nodes from the same AS would seemingly go a long way
> toward mitigating the attack vector you mentioned though.
> 
> 1) http://freehaven.net/anonbib/cache/DBLP:conf/ccs/EdmanS09.pdf
> 
> 2) https://gitweb.torproject.org/torspec.git/plain/path-spec.txt
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Green Dream]

@Nils

Tor path selection avoids using relays from the same /16 subnet, and I
thought it considered the Autonomous System (AS) as well. However now I'm
not finding concrete evidence that path selection looks at AS. I found some
older academic papers on the subject [1], but nothing in the current
specification [2].

Avoiding using two nodes from the same AS would seemingly go a long way
toward mitigating the attack vector you mentioned though.

1) http://freehaven.net/anonbib/cache/DBLP:conf/ccs/EdmanS09.pdf

2) https://gitweb.torproject.org/torspec.git/plain/path-spec.txt
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Markus Koch]

The hosting staff in every hosting company has physical access to the
servers (even dedicated) and if you have physical access to a server
think about it as compromised.

I dont really see the difference between shared hosting and my other
bare metal servers. As a CCNP I can compromise them both without much
hassle with physical access to them.

It´s not: Shared hosting = sharing my private keys to the world.

Markus



2016-05-25 21:02 GMT+02:00 Nils Vogels :
> So just out of curiosity: if a lot of relays run on hardware of a single
> hosting company, that hosting company has access to many secret keys, which
> might be an interesting attack vector for an adversary.
>
> Given that these nodes have a different administrator, MyFamily won't be
> set.
>
> Does the relay selection algo take this into account in any way?
>
> Greetings!
>
> Op 25 mei 2016 7:45 p.m. schreef "Markus Koch" :
>>
>> My experience is: This is the best hosting companyI ever had and I am
>> doing this for over 20 years. I will not run an exit node and I am
>> sure I will be fine.Btw, there are already alot of hight traffic non
>> exit nodes running on feral.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> PS: I am not working for feral and I am not a family member or any
>> other connection :)
>>
>>
>>
>> 2016-05-25 12:55 GMT+02:00 pa011 :
>> > Hi Markus,
>> >
>> > on your hint I was just checking feralhosting.com. They are quoting:
>> >
>> > "We do not allow Tor exit nodes to be run on our servers. They're open
>> > invitations for trouble, and while Tor serves a useful purpose our
>> > network is not the place for it.
>> > Tor relays are fine provided they strictly only act as an intermediary.
>> >
>> > We will make an exception to this rule if you bring your own RIPE IPs
>> > and handle abuse directly while taking full responsibility. "
>> >
>> > Is this your experience as well?
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 25.05.2016 um 10:16 schrieb Markus Koch:
>> >> Linux, would like to upgrade my accounts at feralhosting.com with tor
>> >> nodes. It must be possible because there are a lot of TOR nodes on
>> >> feral. No clue what kind of linux they are using but you are right, I
>> >> needed root for my other 6 TOR servers and I am just wondering if
>> >> there is a way around it, if not I just ask them to install it for me
>> >> :)
>> >>
>> >>  Markus
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2016-05-25 10:10 GMT+02:00 Petrusko :
>> >>> Like a portable version so ?
>> >>>
>> >>> Windows, Linux, which operating system are you using ?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Linux world, I'm usually using Debian and as I know you will need a
>> >>> root access to the server.
>> >>> It will create a debian-tor group, write into the system...
>> >>>
>> >>> Or if your user is in the "sudo" group, it can be ok.
>> >>>
>> >>> On windows, I'm not sure if there's a portable version of Tor...
>> >>> portable = no need to install
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Le 25/05/2016 10:03, Markus Koch a écrit :
>>  possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
>>  shared server?
>> 
>>  Markus
>>  ___
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>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Petrusko
>> >>> PubKey EBE23AE5
>> >>> C0BF 2184 4A77 4A18 90E9 F72C B3CA E665 EBE2 3AE5
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ___
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>> >>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
>> >>>
>> >> ___
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>> >>
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Nils Vogels]

So just out of curiosity: if a lot of relays run on hardware of a single
hosting company, that hosting company has access to many secret keys, which
might be an interesting attack vector for an adversary.

Given that these nodes have a different administrator, MyFamily won't be
set.

Does the relay selection algo take this into account in any way?

Greetings!
Op 25 mei 2016 7:45 p.m. schreef "Markus Koch" :

> My experience is: This is the best hosting companyI ever had and I am
> doing this for over 20 years. I will not run an exit node and I am
> sure I will be fine.Btw, there are already alot of hight traffic non
> exit nodes running on feral.
>
> Markus
>
> PS: I am not working for feral and I am not a family member or any
> other connection :)
>
>
>
> 2016-05-25 12:55 GMT+02:00 pa011 :
> > Hi Markus,
> >
> > on your hint I was just checking feralhosting.com. They are quoting:
> >
> > "We do not allow Tor exit nodes to be run on our servers. They're open
> > invitations for trouble, and while Tor serves a useful purpose our
> > network is not the place for it.
> > Tor relays are fine provided they strictly only act as an intermediary.
> >
> > We will make an exception to this rule if you bring your own RIPE IPs
> > and handle abuse directly while taking full responsibility. "
> >
> > Is this your experience as well?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > Am 25.05.2016 um 10:16 schrieb Markus Koch:
> >> Linux, would like to upgrade my accounts at feralhosting.com with tor
> >> nodes. It must be possible because there are a lot of TOR nodes on
> >> feral. No clue what kind of linux they are using but you are right, I
> >> needed root for my other 6 TOR servers and I am just wondering if
> >> there is a way around it, if not I just ask them to install it for me
> >> :)
> >>
> >>  Markus
> >>
> >>
> >> 2016-05-25 10:10 GMT+02:00 Petrusko :
> >>> Like a portable version so ?
> >>>
> >>> Windows, Linux, which operating system are you using ?
> >>>
> >>> On Linux world, I'm usually using Debian and as I know you will need a
> >>> root access to the server.
> >>> It will create a debian-tor group, write into the system...
> >>>
> >>> Or if your user is in the "sudo" group, it can be ok.
> >>>
> >>> On windows, I'm not sure if there's a portable version of Tor...
> >>> portable = no need to install
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Le 25/05/2016 10:03, Markus Koch a écrit :
>  possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
>  shared server?
> 
>  Markus
>  ___
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>  https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Petrusko
> >>> PubKey EBE23AE5
> >>> C0BF 2184 4A77 4A18 90E9 F72C B3CA E665 EBE2 3AE5
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> tor-relays mailing list
> >>> tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
> >>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
> >>>
> >> ___
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> >> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
> >>
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Markus Koch]

My experience is: This is the best hosting companyI ever had and I am
doing this for over 20 years. I will not run an exit node and I am
sure I will be fine.Btw, there are already alot of hight traffic non
exit nodes running on feral.

Markus

PS: I am not working for feral and I am not a family member or any
other connection :)



2016-05-25 12:55 GMT+02:00 pa011 :
> Hi Markus,
>
> on your hint I was just checking feralhosting.com. They are quoting:
>
> "We do not allow Tor exit nodes to be run on our servers. They're open
> invitations for trouble, and while Tor serves a useful purpose our
> network is not the place for it.
> Tor relays are fine provided they strictly only act as an intermediary.
>
> We will make an exception to this rule if you bring your own RIPE IPs
> and handle abuse directly while taking full responsibility. "
>
> Is this your experience as well?
>
> Paul
>
>
> Am 25.05.2016 um 10:16 schrieb Markus Koch:
>> Linux, would like to upgrade my accounts at feralhosting.com with tor
>> nodes. It must be possible because there are a lot of TOR nodes on
>> feral. No clue what kind of linux they are using but you are right, I
>> needed root for my other 6 TOR servers and I am just wondering if
>> there is a way around it, if not I just ask them to install it for me
>> :)
>>
>>  Markus
>>
>>
>> 2016-05-25 10:10 GMT+02:00 Petrusko :
>>> Like a portable version so ?
>>>
>>> Windows, Linux, which operating system are you using ?
>>>
>>> On Linux world, I'm usually using Debian and as I know you will need a
>>> root access to the server.
>>> It will create a debian-tor group, write into the system...
>>>
>>> Or if your user is in the "sudo" group, it can be ok.
>>>
>>> On windows, I'm not sure if there's a portable version of Tor...
>>> portable = no need to install
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 25/05/2016 10:03, Markus Koch a écrit :
 possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
 shared server?

 Markus
 ___
 tor-relays mailing list
 tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
 https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
>>>
>>> --
>>> Petrusko
>>> PubKey EBE23AE5
>>> C0BF 2184 4A77 4A18 90E9 F72C B3CA E665 EBE2 3AE5
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Petrusko]

Nice to know Tor can run without any root account!

Thx all


Le 25/05/2016 à 11:41, n...@cock.li a écrit :
> Markus Koch:
>> possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
>> shared server?
> I think it would not be recommended on a shared server for reasons
> ranging from less-private privkeys to a company that sells shared
> hosting probably wont be letting you run a relay in the first place.
> But yes, tor should be able to run fine without root.
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[pa011]

Hi Markus,

on your hint I was just checking feralhosting.com. They are quoting:

"We do not allow Tor exit nodes to be run on our servers. They're open
invitations for trouble, and while Tor serves a useful purpose our
network is not the place for it.
Tor relays are fine provided they strictly only act as an intermediary.

We will make an exception to this rule if you bring your own RIPE IPs
and handle abuse directly while taking full responsibility. "

Is this your experience as well?

Paul


Am 25.05.2016 um 10:16 schrieb Markus Koch:
> Linux, would like to upgrade my accounts at feralhosting.com with tor
> nodes. It must be possible because there are a lot of TOR nodes on
> feral. No clue what kind of linux they are using but you are right, I
> needed root for my other 6 TOR servers and I am just wondering if
> there is a way around it, if not I just ask them to install it for me
> :)
> 
>  Markus
> 
> 
> 2016-05-25 10:10 GMT+02:00 Petrusko :
>> Like a portable version so ?
>>
>> Windows, Linux, which operating system are you using ?
>>
>> On Linux world, I'm usually using Debian and as I know you will need a
>> root access to the server.
>> It will create a debian-tor group, write into the system...
>>
>> Or if your user is in the "sudo" group, it can be ok.
>>
>> On windows, I'm not sure if there's a portable version of Tor...
>> portable = no need to install
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 25/05/2016 10:03, Markus Koch a écrit :
>>> possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
>>> shared server?
>>>
>>> Markus
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
>>
>> --
>> Petrusko
>> PubKey EBE23AE5
>> C0BF 2184 4A77 4A18 90E9 F72C B3CA E665 EBE2 3AE5
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[n...@cock.li]

Markus Koch:
> possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
> shared server?

I think it would not be recommended on a shared server for reasons
ranging from less-private privkeys to a company that sells shared
hosting probably wont be letting you run a relay in the first place.
But yes, tor should be able to run fine without root.
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Tim Wilson-Brown - teor]

> On 25 May 2016, at 05:46, Sebastian Niehaus  wrote:
> 
> Am 25.05.2016 um 10:28 schrieb Markus Koch:
>> Thank you. What about the config filez in /etc/tor/ ... /etc/ should be root 
>> only?
> 
> The user runnng tor must be able to read them. $DataDir has to be rw

There torrc file can be in a read-only location and is -f on the command-line.
The other read-only files all have individual config options that allow you to 
place them in /etc.
The default tor DataDirectory is read-write and in /var.

You can put these all in your user directory if you want, just change the tor 
startup script and torrc.

Tim

> 
> Sebastian
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Sebastian Niehaus]

Am 25.05.2016 um 10:28 schrieb Markus Koch:
> Thank you. What about the config filez in /etc/tor/ ... /etc/ should be root 
> only?

The user runnng tor must be able to read them. $DataDir has to be rw

Sebastian



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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Markus Koch]

Thank you. What about the config filez in /etc/tor/ ... /etc/ should be root 
only?

Sent from my iPad

> On 25 May 2016, at 10:24, Sebastian Niehaus  wrote:
> 
>> Am 25.05.2016 um 10:16 schrieb Markus Koch:
>> Linux, would like to upgrade my accounts at feralhosting.com with tor
>> nodes. It must be possible because there are a lot of TOR nodes on
>> feral. No clue what kind of linux they are using but you are right, I
>> needed root for my other 6 TOR servers and I am just wondering if
>> there is a way around it, if not I just ask them to install it for me
>> :)
> 
> tor does not require root permission to be run properly. I just started
> it as user on my debian maschine. Make sure not to use port numbers
> below 1025.
> 
> 
> 
> Sebastian
> 
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Sebastian Niehaus]

Am 25.05.2016 um 10:16 schrieb Markus Koch:
> Linux, would like to upgrade my accounts at feralhosting.com with tor
> nodes. It must be possible because there are a lot of TOR nodes on
> feral. No clue what kind of linux they are using but you are right, I
> needed root for my other 6 TOR servers and I am just wondering if
> there is a way around it, if not I just ask them to install it for me
> :)

tor does not require root permission to be run properly. I just started
it as user on my debian maschine. Make sure not to use port numbers
below 1025.



Sebastian




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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Markus Koch]

Linux, would like to upgrade my accounts at feralhosting.com with tor
nodes. It must be possible because there are a lot of TOR nodes on
feral. No clue what kind of linux they are using but you are right, I
needed root for my other 6 TOR servers and I am just wondering if
there is a way around it, if not I just ask them to install it for me
:)

 Markus


2016-05-25 10:10 GMT+02:00 Petrusko :
> Like a portable version so ?
>
> Windows, Linux, which operating system are you using ?
>
> On Linux world, I'm usually using Debian and as I know you will need a
> root access to the server.
> It will create a debian-tor group, write into the system...
>
> Or if your user is in the "sudo" group, it can be ok.
>
> On windows, I'm not sure if there's a portable version of Tor...
> portable = no need to install
>
>
>
> Le 25/05/2016 10:03, Markus Koch a écrit :
>> possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
>> shared server?
>>
>> Markus
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Re: [tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Petrusko]

Like a portable version so ?

Windows, Linux, which operating system are you using ?

On Linux world, I'm usually using Debian and as I know you will need a
root access to the server.
It will create a debian-tor group, write into the system...

Or if your user is in the "sudo" group, it can be ok.

On windows, I'm not sure if there's a portable version of Tor...
portable = no need to install



Le 25/05/2016 10:03, Markus Koch a écrit :
> possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
> shared server?
>
> Markus
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Petrusko
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[tor-relays] TOR router install without access to root

[Markus Koch]

possible or do I have to ask my hosting company for the install on a
shared server?

Markus
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