Re: [tor-relays] About relay size

2017-10-02 Thread teor 

> On 2 Oct 2017, at 16:54, Santiago  wrote:
> 
>> El 02/10/17 a las 13:19, Scott Bennett escribió:
>> grarpamp  wrote:
>> 
 On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:53 AM, Santiago  wrote:
>> …
>> 
>> Huh?  What kind of ISP NATs its customers' connections?  Your ISP
>> should be assigning your machine/router a legitimate, unique IPv4 address.
>> The assignment is often, even usually, a temporary assignment via DHCP,
>> but it should not be a private address.  If NAT is a factor, that should
>> happen at the boundary of your own private network, not at an ISP's facility.
> 
> It seems that a French ISP was also planning to share an IPv4 address
> per four costumers.
> 
> …
>> ...  One typical problem with running tor
>> on a NATed machine behind such a device is that the NAT table grows until all
>> of the real memory on the device has been consumed and there is no more room
>> for new NAT entries.
> 
> I am not currently able to replace the modem/router my ISP provides. But
> I'd plan to give it away in the future.
> 
> In the meantime, I think it would be great to have IPv6-only relays, to
> avoid this kind of NAT-related issues.

We'd love to make this happen, but the anonymity implications
of mixed IPv4-only and IPv6-only (non-clique) networks need
further research. Search the list archives for details.

T
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Re: [tor-relays] About relay size

2017-10-02 Thread Santiago 
El 02/10/17 a las 13:19, Scott Bennett escribió:
> grarpamp  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:53 AM, Santiago  wrote:
…
> 
>  Huh?  What kind of ISP NATs its customers' connections?  Your ISP
> should be assigning your machine/router a legitimate, unique IPv4 address.
> The assignment is often, even usually, a temporary assignment via DHCP,
> but it should not be a private address.  If NAT is a factor, that should
> happen at the boundary of your own private network, not at an ISP's facility.

It seems that a French ISP was also planning to share an IPv4 address
per four costumers.

…
>  I'll second the above comments.  Most of those little router boxes are
> running some form of LINUX or FreeBSD as an embedded configuration, which
> includes swapping and paging being disabled due to the absence of secondary
> storage.  All of them have limited RAM.  One typical problem with running tor
> on a NATed machine behind such a device is that the NAT table grows until all
> of the real memory on the device has been consumed and there is no more room
> for new NAT entries.

I am not currently able to replace the modem/router my ISP provides. But
I'd plan to give it away in the future.

In the meantime, I think it would be great to have IPv6-only relays, to
avoid this kind of NAT-related issues.

Cheers,

 -- S
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Re: [tor-relays] About relay size

2017-10-02 Thread grarpamp 
>> Or instead of router mode, try bridge mode feeding into any old pc running

Noting that even some crappy hardware will still fall over when put in its
so called "bridge" mode, which should just be some packet buffering
between the wires and their encodings, but it's obviously still looking
at the traffic above layer2. So you may still need to swap out hardware.

>  because there is secondary storage (HDD and/or SSD), paging
> is available if the routing functions' memory needs grow larger than the

Sure, but there's no free substitute for RAM, and you probably don't want
packets burning a hole in your SSD. Add more RAM if not maxed out.
disable swap, boot USB, set read-only, use small ramdisks for write paths.
If used RAM for a used PC isn't in budget or isn't enough, then maybe
spindle, but it won't be as fast. And eventually CPU or interrupts or i/o
get swamped. Then you put a newer PC that can hold proper amounts
of RAM, CPU, etc.
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Re: [tor-relays] About relay size

2017-10-02 Thread Andreas Krey 
On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 13:19:59 +, Scott Bennett wrote:
...
>  Huh?  What kind of ISP NATs its customers' connections?

All kinds of ISPs that were too late to grab enough IPv4 space
for their customer base. Here in germany these are mostly the
cable companies.

Also, generally mobile IP.

Andreas

-- 
"Totally trivial. Famous last words."
From: Linus Torvalds 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:29:21 -0800
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Re: [tor-relays] About relay size

2017-10-02 Thread Scott Bennett 
grarpamp  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:53 AM, Santiago  wrote:
> >> And you can only have 2 tor instances per public IPv4 address.
> >
> > Why? Is there any place where I can find this kind of info?
>
> Read the archives of this list linked at the bottom of every message.
> As an operator you'll find lots more interesting subjects there too.
>
> > Maybe it's another issue, but I have recently tried to run a second
> > relay behind the same IPv4 address than my first relay, and the
> > connection quality strongly diminished. I suppose my ISP equipment was
> > not able to handle the two relays on NAT, but I would need to
> > investigate further.

 Huh?  What kind of ISP NATs its customers' connections?  Your ISP
should be assigning your machine/router a legitimate, unique IPv4 address.
The assignment is often, even usually, a temporary assignment via DHCP,
but it should not be a private address.  If NAT is a factor, that should
happen at the boundary of your own private network, not at an ISP's facility.
>
> Lots of hardware for use in the home, whether ISP provided or bought
> from wherever by the user, has been known to fall over under load,
> cable / dsl / fiber modems, whether in bridge or router modes, wifi, etc.
>
> For tor you need to test with tens to hundreds of TCP connections
> or more in parallel. The simple online "speedtests" don't do that.
> One way is to load up increasing numbers of opensource Unix iso's,
> conference videos, whatever... into whatever torrent client and watch
> the stats. If upon passing the expected / required number of connections,
> it starts falling significantly off the maximum recorded speed, never recovers
> when unloaded, locks up, reboots, melts / smokes / combusts, etc...
> then try another brand.

 I'll second the above comments.  Most of those little router boxes are
running some form of LINUX or FreeBSD as an embedded configuration, which
includes swapping and paging being disabled due to the absence of secondary
storage.  All of them have limited RAM.  One typical problem with running tor
on a NATed machine behind such a device is that the NAT table grows until all
of the real memory on the device has been consumed and there is no more room
for new NAT entries.
>
> Or instead of router mode, try bridge mode feeding into any old pc running
> [Free]BSD / Linux to do the functions of routing, wifi, firewall, nat,
> dhcp, dns,
> etc... this may often perform better and give more flexibility.

 Yes, and because there is secondary storage (HDD and/or SSD), paging
is available if the routing functions' memory needs grow larger than the
available real memory.  Home electronics store routers cannot hold a candle
to a full OS with a decent packet filter.


  Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG
**
* Internet:   bennett at sdf.org   *xor*   bennett at freeshell.org  *
**
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Re: [tor-relays] Feedback wanted: letter to my university's library

2017-10-02 Thread grarpamp 
If for library regarding preserving knowledge,
and other sales tactics

You might be able to present for supporting an anonymous
encrypted storage platform... such as Tahoe-LAFS, MaidSafe,
IPFS, Bitcoin full nodes, Zensystem.io, a Wiki, NNTP, there
are many more such "store of data / knowledge" things out there
to choose from... all over Tor or I2P or CJDNS.

For anti-correlation reasons you're not supposed to run some services
on the same box as a relay (or even anywhere administratively,
logically, or physically near the box), especially if the service
running on top does not itself fully encrypt and distribute the data
out of reach thus making seizure moot. Depending on that analysis,
you could present to also run the relay [on another box] to help
supply the 7x bandwidth and cpu impact the onion service has on
the relay network.

Anonymity overlay networks are nothing in themselves,
it's the applications and usage people run over them that
makes them useful. If the overlay network itself isn't interesting
enough to attract funding / approval / internet / hardware
from somewhere, maybe the applications riding on top can be.

You could also further tie it into doing some form of research,
education, outreach, overview, tech in operation presentations...
all "sponsored by: ". Many entities will bend over
backwards for a free name drop.

Or just sell it like a used car dealer... $1000 runs great!
Good luck ;)
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Re: [tor-relays] Feedback wanted: letter to my university's library

2017-10-02 Thread Alison Macrina 
Hi AJ,

Thank you for supporting Tor! I think it's a great idea to try to work
with your university library to run a relay. I run the Library Freedom
Project which helps libraries understand and use privacy tools
(libraryfreedomproject.org). I can give you some advice based on my
experience.

William Denton:
> On 1 October 2017, AJ Jordan wrote:
>
>> However I've just started college at the University of Rochester,
>> which obviously presents a great opportunity to set up a relay on a
>> really great network. I'm planning to reach out to the library with
>> the following email and would love some feedback:
>
> Scott Bennett had excellent advice,

+1

> Academic libraries can be very experimental in some of their work, but
> they are generally risk-averse.  (This is good, because they're in the
> business of preserving knowledge and cultural artifacts for decades and
> centuries.)  There is, I'm afraid, close to zero chance they would let a
> non-employee student run a server on their network---and running Tor,
> even a non-exit relay, makes the chances even lower.
>
> However, don't give up.  I suggest thinking about this as a long-term
> project that could get you involved with the library, faculty and campus
> IT.  There must be people on campus interested in privacy issues, who
> know about Tor, and perhaps who have been thinking about running a
> relay.  These people could be librarians or they could be professors or
> grad students in political science, communcations, journalism, computer
> science, privacy studies, etc.  Find out who they are and approach
> them!  Perhaps there is a student club interested in the same
> issues---if not, you could start one.  Students and student groups
> advocating for a Tor relay or exit, while demonstrating the importance
> of Tor and how it fits in with the library's and university's mission,
> would very much help the project be successful.

William's advice is good. You definitely need to begin by building a
relationship with the library. Don't be discouraged by the amount of
work this may take; the payoff might end up being a cultural shift
wherein the library, university IT, and CS departments all work on this
as a project together!

You'll want to approach the library by showing that Tor is an excellent
way to uphold the values of librarianship, which are privacy,
intellectual freedom, and access. Really, be explicit about it; don't
assume that they'll just get why you think it matters. Here's something
I wrote about intellectual freedom + Tor Browser a while ago and you can
borrow the arguments I've made:
https://www.scribd.com/document/272919852/Alison-Macrina-The-Tor-Browser-and-Intellectual-Freedom-in-the-Digital-Age

As William said, libraries are mostly risk-averse, so you also need to
be ready to answer their questions about legal and technical concerns.
LFP has collected some resources to help with all of that here:
https://github.com/LibraryFreedom/tor-exit-package/blob/master/resources.md.

Before you email the university librarian, I'd start by talking to some
of the regular academic librarians about your ideas and gauge their
responses. Ask them if they've heard of the Library Freedom Project and
feel free to send them any of our resources. See if they think the
administration would be receptive to you offering a presentation about
Tor to library staff (even better if you can make it open to students
and faculty, too, because that can get you more support). You are
welcome to adapt these slides for that presentation:
https://libraryfreedomproject.org/allabouttor/. Make sure to show them
this academic library that has used their Tor relay as a teaching tool
for students:
https://boingboing.net/2016/03/16/first-ever-tor-node-in-a-canad.html.


LFP is fairly well known and respected in libraries and so if it can be
beneficial to involve me further, I'm happy to assist!

Alison
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Re: [tor-relays] Feedback wanted: letter to my university's library

2017-10-02 Thread Jonathan Proulx 

Hi AJ,

not sure if anyone's brought this up, but you may want to look at:

https://libraryfreedomproject.org/

"
Library Freedom Project is a partnership among librarians,
technologists, attorneys, and privacy advocates which aims to address
the problems of surveillance by making real the promise of
intellectual freedom in libraries. By teaching librarians about
surveillance threats, privacy rights and responsibilities, and digital
tools to stop surveillance, we hope to create a privacy-centric
paradigm shift in libraries and the communities they serve."

In practice as I understand it this in large part involves Libraries
running Tor exits to facilitate their privacy and education goals.

-Jon

On Mon, Oct 02, 2017 at 11:51:42AM -0400, teor wrote:
:On 2 Oct 2017, at 01:18, AJ Jordan  wrote:
:
:>> find out what the rules around Internet usage
:>> are, and just set one up.
:> 
:> The problem is that logistically I can't without help,
:> unfortunately. I don't have a spare machine to run it on and more
:> importantly, I don't have access to a good wired connection. The only
:> Ethernet jack I know of is in my dorm room and I can't imagine it's
:> very good compared to a datacenter connection. So there's two things
:> I'd need from IT.
:
:You might be surprised.
:
:When I was at university, the Ethernet in my room was one hop from
:the campus fibre mesh network, so it was pretty good.
:(Of course, it was in Australia, so it would never have sent much tor
:traffic.)
:
:*If* it falls within your dorm's acceptable use policies, setting up a
:relay with a low RelayBandwidthRate would be a good way to see
:how well tor works on campus.
:
:But you need to make a judgement call, because having a dorm relay
:shut down might affect the library's willingness to run one.
:
:Tim
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Re: [tor-relays] Feedback wanted: letter to my university's library

2017-10-02 Thread teor 
On 2 Oct 2017, at 01:18, AJ Jordan  wrote:

>> find out what the rules around Internet usage
>> are, and just set one up.
> 
> The problem is that logistically I can't without help,
> unfortunately. I don't have a spare machine to run it on and more
> importantly, I don't have access to a good wired connection. The only
> Ethernet jack I know of is in my dorm room and I can't imagine it's
> very good compared to a datacenter connection. So there's two things
> I'd need from IT.

You might be surprised.

When I was at university, the Ethernet in my room was one hop from
the campus fibre mesh network, so it was pretty good.
(Of course, it was in Australia, so it would never have sent much tor
traffic.)

*If* it falls within your dorm's acceptable use policies, setting up a
relay with a low RelayBandwidthRate would be a good way to see
how well tor works on campus.

But you need to make a judgement call, because having a dorm relay
shut down might affect the library's willingness to run one.

Tim
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Re: [tor-relays] About relay size

2017-10-02 Thread grarpamp 
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:53 AM, Santiago  wrote:
>> And you can only have 2 tor instances per public IPv4 address.
>
> Why? Is there any place where I can find this kind of info?

Read the archives of this list linked at the bottom of every message.
As an operator you'll find lots more interesting subjects there too.

> Maybe it's another issue, but I have recently tried to run a second
> relay behind the same IPv4 address than my first relay, and the
> connection quality strongly diminished. I suppose my ISP equipment was
> not able to handle the two relays on NAT, but I would need to
> investigate further.

Lots of hardware for use in the home, whether ISP provided or bought
from wherever by the user, has been known to fall over under load,
cable / dsl / fiber modems, whether in bridge or router modes, wifi, etc.

For tor you need to test with tens to hundreds of TCP connections
or more in parallel. The simple online "speedtests" don't do that.
One way is to load up increasing numbers of opensource Unix iso's,
conference videos, whatever... into whatever torrent client and watch
the stats. If upon passing the expected / required number of connections,
it starts falling significantly off the maximum recorded speed, never recovers
when unloaded, locks up, reboots, melts / smokes / combusts, etc...
then try another brand.

Or instead of router mode, try bridge mode feeding into any old pc running
[Free]BSD / Linux to do the functions of routing, wifi, firewall, nat,
dhcp, dns,
etc... this may often perform better and give more flexibility.
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Re: [tor-relays] About relay size

2017-10-02 Thread teor 

> On 2 Oct 2017, at 03:53, Santiago  wrote:
> 
> Hi tor-relay list,
> 
>> El 30/09/17 a las 14:02, teor escribió:
>>> On 30 Sep 2017, at 09:55, Andy Isaacson  wrote:
>> …
>> And you can only have 2 tor instances per public IPv4 address.
> 
> Why?

It makes it harder for people to start hundreds of relays.

> Is there any place where I can find this kind of info?

Yes, it's documented in the tor manual page.
And search the list archives for explanations.

> Maybe it's another issue, but I have recently tried to run a second
> relay behind the same IPv4 address than my first relay, and the
> connection quality strongly diminished. I suppose my ISP equipment was
> not able to handle the two relays on NAT, but I would need to
> investigate further.

This is typically many consumer NAT boxes.
Every active tor relay has ~6000 open connections to other relays.
Exits have even more.
Many systems just don't have this capacity.

T
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Re: [tor-relays] Feedback wanted: letter to my university's library

2017-10-02 Thread William Denton 

On 1 October 2017, AJ Jordan wrote:


However I've just started college at the University of Rochester,
which obviously presents a great opportunity to set up a relay on a
really great network. I'm planning to reach out to the library with
the following email and would love some feedback:


Scott Bennett had excellent advice, and I have a few suggestions along the same 
lines.  (I work in a unversity library.)


Academic libraries can be very experimental in some of their work, but they are 
generally risk-averse.  (This is good, because they're in the business of 
preserving knowledge and cultural artifacts for decades and centuries.)  There 
is, I'm afraid, close to zero chance they would let a non-employee student run a 
server on their network---and running Tor, even a non-exit relay, makes the 
chances even lower.


However, don't give up.  I suggest thinking about this as a long-term project 
that could get you involved with the library, faculty and campus IT.  There must 
be people on campus interested in privacy issues, who know about Tor, and 
perhaps who have been thinking about running a relay.  These people could be 
librarians or they could be professors or grad students in political science, 
communcations, journalism, computer science, privacy studies, etc.  Find out who 
they are and approach them!  Perhaps there is a student club interested in the 
same issues---if not, you could start one.  Students and student groups 
advocating for a Tor relay or exit, while demonstrating the importance of Tor 
and how it fits in with the library's and university's mission, would very much 
help the project be successful.


In other words, your goal is achievable, but I think you'll need different 
methods.  For a long-term Tor relay to run on a library or university server, 
they will need to be the ones running it, but a student could be the one to help 
convince them to do it.


Connecting Tor to ongoing or potential research would also be a big help.  If 
someone's going to run a server, they'll want to do more than just run it as a 
service.


Along the way, you might get a part-time job out of it, which is always a bonus. 
If they do workshops on privacy and online security you could help with them, or 
do peer workshops, etc.  (It's a lot easier to tell people about Tor, and show 
them how to use it, than to run a server, so it's a good first step.)


As for where to start, I suggest dropping by the Digital Scholarship Lab.  The 
digital humanities librarian looks like a good person to chat with.


http://humanities.lib.rochester.edu/

Good luck!

Bill
--
William Denton :: Toronto, Canada   ---   Listening to Art: 
https://listeningtoart.org/
https://www.miskatonic.org/ ---   GHG.EARTH: http://ghg.earth/
Caveat lector.  ---   STAPLR: http://staplr.org/
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Re: [tor-relays] Feedback wanted: letter to my university's library

2017-10-02 Thread Scott Bennett 
"Tor Node Admin @ SechsNullDrei.org"  wrote:

> Hi AJ,
>
> First, thank you for supporting Tor!
>
> Second, you're smart to contact the library, as IT would immediately shut
> down the idea as they don't want to receive more abuse emails than they
> already do (I know we did when I worked in academia).  An additional
> resource you may wish to research is the https://libraryfreedomproject.org/
> by Alison Mecrina.  The resources available on this site speak directly to
> librarians on such issues.  Good luck!
>
AJ and any others in similar situations,
 I would add a few comments, beginning with the style of communications
with your university library.  When you wish to ask for some special
consideration, find out whom you need to talk with about your request, and
then make an appointment to visit his/her office in person.  Sending an email
message out of the blue and beginning it with "Heya!" is utterly inappropriate
and is not at all likely to get you anywhere.  You must act--and write--like
an adult, and formality in your initial written communications is essential.
They are not going to let someone acting like an ill-mannered adolescent run
a server on their department's equipment.  If you come across as a responsible
adult who makes a good impression and provides a good case for satisfying the
request, a case that looks good from the university's point of view, which is
to say, convincing them that it would benefit the university in some way, then
you may get somewhere with them.
 If you convince them, however, be prepared to find out that the staff has
decided to run the relay itself.  The department may well have to run it past
the university's legal department.  Because you are not acting as a university
employee, either or both departments may not be willing to make the university
liable for possible consequences of a non-employee's actions.  I know that, as
a systems programmer at the university here, I would never have let anyone out
of our group, much less outside of our department, do anything like running a
relay on a machine under my responsibility.  I wouldn't have risked having to
clean up someone else's mess, and my boss would have been apoplectic at the
idea.  The security issues would have overwhelmed everything.
 OTOH, you might still get lucky.  It would definitely be worth your time
to find out whether the university (e.g., through its computer center or
library) or some other individual, department, or college office is already
running one or more relays.  Faculty members at some universities have been
known to get special arrangements to run tor relays, even exits, on university-
owned equipment.  At some schools, faculty members would not likely even be
questioned about it.  Note, for example, that many individual faculty members
and sometimes even (paid) graduate assistants run web servers to publicize
their research and results.  Note that any networking staff will want to know
how much of the available network capacity your networking program (in this
case, tor) would require if the decision were to allow it.  Asking to run an
exit is almost certain to subject your request to legal department scrutiny,
so you might consider running a middle/entry node first for some time, say six
or twelve months, before asking to upgrade your relay to an exit relay.  That
would give time to establish your skill at managing a relay, responding well
and quickly when problems occur, to become personally known to the staff, and
so forth.  Once you've established a good reputation with them, they are more
likely to oblige you.
 In any case, best wishes for your attempt.  Please let us know whether
you pull it off and, if so, what you did that succeeded.


  Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG
**
* Internet:   bennett at sdf.org   *xor*   bennett at freeshell.org  *
**
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* objection to the introduction of that bane of all free governments *
* -- a standing army."   *
*-- Gov. John Hancock, New York Journal, 28 January 1790 *
**
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Re: [tor-relays] Feedback wanted: letter to my university's library

2017-10-02 Thread Tor Node Admin @ SechsNullDrei.org 
Hi AJ,

First, thank you for supporting Tor!

Second, you're smart to contact the library, as IT would immediately shut
down the idea as they don't want to receive more abuse emails than they
already do (I know we did when I worked in academia).  An additional
resource you may wish to research is the https://libraryfreedomproject.org/
by Alison Mecrina.  The resources available on this site speak directly to
librarians on such issues.  Good luck!

Thank you for your email,
Isaac, t...@sechsnulldrei.org

-Original Message-
From: tor-relays [mailto:tor-relays-boun...@lists.torproject.org] On Behalf
Of AJ Jordan
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2017 3:20 PM
To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
Subject: [tor-relays] Feedback wanted: letter to my university's library

Hey, all!

I'm AJ; I've been lurking on this list for many years but have never had
cause to post. I've run a Tor relay (`strugees`) on AWS for a number of
years now, but haven't been able to dedicate all that much bandwidth to it
due to cost concerns.

However I've just started college at the University of Rochester, which
obviously presents a great opportunity to set up a relay on a really great
network. I'm planning to reach out to the library with the following email
and would love some feedback:

> Heya!
>
> I'm a new first-year student and I'm active in the technology activism 
> community. One of the things I'm very interested in is the Tor Project 
> (https://torproject.org), whose mission is to make it possible to 
> freely and anonymously use the internet, without fear of surveillance 
> or censorship. Tor is used by a wide variety of people
> - activists, journalists, corporations, law enforcement, and 
> individuals - to gain free access to information and speak their mind. 
> Tor is able to provide this free expression by utilizing a worldwide 
> network of relays run by volunteers. A relay can make a big difference 
> on the Tor network if it's run on a connection which is fast and has 
> lots of bandwidth - like the University's connection.
>
> I think it would be really cool if UR would donate part of its 
> internet resources to the Tor network. I considered directly 
> contacting IT, but I thought it actually made sense to talk to the 
> library first since the core values are actually really similar - 
> libraries and the Tor project both know the value and power of 
> unrestricted access to information and are dedicated to making 
> information available to anyone who wants it.
>
> If this is something that sounds interesting, I would love to chat 
> about this in person. I would also be willing to invest the time 
> needed to administrate the relay - I have several years of experience 
> doing this already, but haven't had access to the resources the 
> University has.
>
> Thanks very much!
>
> AJ Jordan

Does anyone who's done something like this before have any tips or
suggestions? Am I going about this in the best way?

Cheers!

AJ

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Re: [tor-relays] About relay size

2017-10-02 Thread Santiago 
Hi tor-relay list,

El 30/09/17 a las 14:02, teor escribió:
> On 30 Sep 2017, at 09:55, Andy Isaacson  wrote:
…
> And you can only have 2 tor instances per public IPv4 address.

Why? Is there any place where I can find this kind of info?

Maybe it's another issue, but I have recently tried to run a second
relay behind the same IPv4 address than my first relay, and the
connection quality strongly diminished. I suppose my ISP equipment was
not able to handle the two relays on NAT, but I would need to
investigate further.

Cheers,

-- S
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