Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
> While the official Tor site arguably needs a thorough resign, designing > a manifold manual for diverse interests and levels of ability AND threat > models is no easy task. It's the classic security/ease of use conundrum! The part to do first and well is the advice for installing and setting-up a node. There should be less presumption and more of what to do when the results are not as stated. Robert ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
On 06/28/2018 01:19 AM, arisbe wrote: > Hello George and all, > > When I was learning to implement Tor I had difficulty wading through the > web pages for information. Some pages were obsolete, some poorly > maintained (think Tor flow or good/bad hosting companies). The Tor > manual is just a huge list of Tor terminology with no aids to help find > things. The Tor project site has no site map. I still occasionally > have the same problems when I try to find something. I found this very > discouraging as I tried to grow my first Tor node without a live person > to help me. I can imagine how daunting this would be to someone also > trying to learn linux. > > Hey, thanks so much for asking. I appreciate your interest. While the official Tor site arguably needs a thorough resign, designing a manifold manual for diverse interests and levels of ability AND threat models is no easy task. It's the classic security/ease of use conundrum! 0xDD79757F.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
teor: > I think that is a part of the relay guide that we can improve: > Relays exist so that clients can use the network. > Consensus flags exist so that clients can use the network efficiently. > Bandwidth weights are assigned so that clients can use the network > efficiently. tracked as: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/26562 -- https://twitter.com/nusenu_ https://mastodon.social/@nusenu signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
Hi there, > what "things" do you wish you knew before you started running a relay? I wish I knew what the tor community and the tor network expects from us. For example, is it expected from us to keep the relay with 100% uptime? or would it be still fine to -say- have 70% uptime? or if it is not > 90% uptime, is it worthless to run it anyway? Or, more general, how much time and effort does it take to set it up and how much time and effort does it take to keep it running? What minimum knowledge do we need? What is the minimum requirement the relay must have to be it worth for the network? Also, I wish I knew what are the possible problems we may have to face and what to do with them (example, run out of bandwidth quota, cpu usage, possible intrusion and attack vectors to the server running the relay and how to prevent and mitigate them, ...) Sometimes I find those answers on tor's page/wiki or ask them on #tor-relay. Perhaps I didn't do enough research before setting up the relay ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
Arisbe, > > When I was learning to implement Tor I had difficulty wading through the > web pages for information It is odd for such well motivated people to leave such a mess unculled. The most useful help is outside the website. I hope a breath of fresh air is on the way. Rob ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
[tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
Hello George and all, When I was learning to implement Tor I had difficulty wading through the web pages for information. Some pages were obsolete, some poorly maintained (think Tor flow or good/bad hosting companies). The Tor manual is just a huge list of Tor terminology with no aids to help find things. The Tor project site has no site map. I still occasionally have the same problems when I try to find something. I found this very discouraging as I tried to grow my first Tor node without a live person to help me. I can imagine how daunting this would be to someone also trying to learn linux. Hey, thanks so much for asking. I appreciate your interest. ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
> You can rent a relay anywhere in the world. (I rent a few machines in > other countries, because internet in my country is slow.) pfft - Does they live in AU - LOL - If they do then its expensive as well... But teor is right plenty of systems out there in the world - some really cheap. P 609662E824251C283164243846C035C803940378 ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
> On 28 Jun 2018, at 15:14, Keifer Bly wrote: > > Oh, my mistake. I thought torstatus.blutimage.de was also for operators as > well as clients. https://torstatus.blutmagie.de/ is for operators. But the data on the site is created for Tor clients. > I was aware that tor metrics stated relays current up/down time of a relay > but did not know they keep it for that long, my apologies. torstatus and relay search have different features. If you're looking for a missing feature, you should try the other one: https://metrics.torproject.org/rs.html > • run a relay out of a data center, and let someone else worry about > your downtime. > > That’s not an option for me. There are no data centers here and I do not own > one. Also, Charter Communications is the only ISP that does service where I > live, there are no other options for internet besides Charter unfortunately > so I’m pretty much stuck. You can rent a relay anywhere in the world. (I rent a few machines in other countries, because internet in my country is slow.) But you'll need to learn ssh and remote administration. It's like using Terminal, but you're talking to a machine on the other side of the world. T -- teor PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
➢ Has anyone wondered why the number of nodes is so incredibly low? If by that you mean why there are fewer relays than there are tor users (clients), I’d say there are several reasons for this. Not everybody can run a relay, it requires having a router that can smoothly handle the load (or data center), an ISP that allows relays to be run, and not every person who uses tor has that. Far from everybody who installs the tor browser on their computer configures a relay for those reasons and because they don’t want to donate their internet speed. It’s a shame as the network would be faster and stronger otherwise, but that is the case. ➢ I’d like to see a collection of correct answers perhaps searchable Try tor stack exchange (https://tor.stackexchange.com/) There are loads other questions about operating the tor software with answers, and you can ask a question yourself. Cheers. From: I Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 10:10 PM To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators I wish I'd known that this is not the place to learn Linux or really how to run a node securely and efficiently. Perhaps an acknowledgement of that might bring some other pages or styles of the current pages. I'd like to see a collection of correct answers perhaps searchable but restricted and monitored. There are some brilliant people who help but there are others who say less useful things and there's nothing stopping them. Has anyone wondered why the number of nodes is so incredibly low? Rob ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
Oh, my mistake. I thought torstatus.blutimage.de was also for operators as well
as clients. I was aware that tor metrics stated relays current up/down time of
a relay but did not know they keep it for that long, my apologies.
I am a dork sometimes.
➢ run a relay out of a data center, and let someone else worry about
your downtime.
That’s not an option for me. There are no data centers here and I do not own
one. Also, Charter Communications is the only ISP that does service where I
live, there are no other options for internet besides Charter unfortunately so
I’m pretty much stuck.
From: teor
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:40 PM
To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
Subject: Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
Hi,
> On 28 Jun 2018, at 13:25, Keifer Bly wrote:
>
> I am not saying that relays that are currently not running should be treated
> like they are currently running. I am just saying the network conseoucsus
> could be improved a little in the sense that relays, even very high bandwidth
> ones, might go offline from time to time due to things like power and
> internet outages which are things that happen from time to time,
Here's what you can do to fix your issues with relay downtime:
* run a relay on your current unreliable connection, and stop worrying
about downtime,
* run a relay out of a data centre, and let someone else worry about
your downtime.
I'm sorry, but if you don't want to follow this advice, I don't think we
can do anything else to help with your downtime.
> whereas with how things are now, relays that are offline for a few hours due
> to a possible power or internet outage in the area (or similar situation) are
> immediately (within the hour) treated like they never existed at all by the
> consensus.
That's not true. Directory authorities keep an uptime history for down
relays.
But the consensus is for clients!
If a relay is down, clients can't use it.
Why tell clients about a relay they can't use?
If you want us to change the consensus behaviour, you have to tell us
how the change helps clients. Adding down relays to the consensus makes
clients slower and wastes bandwidth.
> I just think that it would be friendly to relay operators
But... the consensus is for Tor clients, not relay operators.
> if their was an option to have relays labeled as “this relay is down
> momentarily, but should be back up again in the near future”
When the relay comes back up, Directory authorities assign flags based
on its uptime history. Short downtimes mean fewer flags are lost.
> unless it is down for two days or so (etc. a long time with no update from
> the operator).
Relay Search is for relay operators, and it tells operators how long
their relay has been down. ("Uptime" gets replaced with "Downtime".)
After a relay has been down for a while (a week?), it disappears from
Relay Search.
If you want new features for relay operators, they belong in relay
search.
T
--
teor
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Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
I wish I'd known that this is not the place to learn Linux or really how to run a node securely and efficiently. Perhaps an acknowledgement of that might bring some other pages or styles of the current pages. I'd like to see a collection of correct answers perhaps searchable but restricted and monitored. There are some brilliant people who help but there are others who say less useful things and there's nothing stopping them. Has anyone wondered why the number of nodes is so incredibly low? Rob ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
Hi,
> On 28 Jun 2018, at 13:25, Keifer Bly wrote:
>
> I am not saying that relays that are currently not running should be treated
> like they are currently running. I am just saying the network conseoucsus
> could be improved a little in the sense that relays, even very high bandwidth
> ones, might go offline from time to time due to things like power and
> internet outages which are things that happen from time to time,
Here's what you can do to fix your issues with relay downtime:
* run a relay on your current unreliable connection, and stop worrying
about downtime,
* run a relay out of a data centre, and let someone else worry about
your downtime.
I'm sorry, but if you don't want to follow this advice, I don't think we
can do anything else to help with your downtime.
> whereas with how things are now, relays that are offline for a few hours due
> to a possible power or internet outage in the area (or similar situation) are
> immediately (within the hour) treated like they never existed at all by the
> consensus.
That's not true. Directory authorities keep an uptime history for down
relays.
But the consensus is for clients!
If a relay is down, clients can't use it.
Why tell clients about a relay they can't use?
If you want us to change the consensus behaviour, you have to tell us
how the change helps clients. Adding down relays to the consensus makes
clients slower and wastes bandwidth.
> I just think that it would be friendly to relay operators
But... the consensus is for Tor clients, not relay operators.
> if their was an option to have relays labeled as “this relay is down
> momentarily, but should be back up again in the near future”
When the relay comes back up, Directory authorities assign flags based
on its uptime history. Short downtimes mean fewer flags are lost.
> unless it is down for two days or so (etc. a long time with no update from
> the operator).
Relay Search is for relay operators, and it tells operators how long
their relay has been down. ("Uptime" gets replaced with "Downtime".)
After a relay has been down for a while (a week?), it disappears from
Relay Search.
If you want new features for relay operators, they belong in relay
search.
T
--
teor
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Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
I am not saying that relays that are currently not running should be treated like they are currently running. I am just saying the network conseoucsus could be improved a little in the sense that relays, even very high bandwidth ones, might go offline from time to time due to things like power and internet outages which are things that happen from time to time, whereas with how things are now, relays that are offline for a few hours due to a possible power or internet outage in the area (or similar situation) are immediately (within the hour) treated like they never existed at all by the consensus. I just think that it would be friendly to relay operators if their was an option to have relays labeled as “this relay is down momentarily, but should be back up again in the near future” unless it is down for two days or so (etc. a long time with no update from the operator). From: teor Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 7:39 PM To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators > On 28 Jun 2018, at 11:45, Keifer Bly wrote: > > It is also a pain at times keeping the OS, especially on macOS, the newer > versions of which my not support older machines, up to date while trying to > keep the relay stable, as relay status is changed so quickly (removing relays > from the conseoucsus list within 40 mins) which can be troublesome for areas > that sometimes experience power outages, which happens during winter where my > relay is run. But a 60 minute turnaround for relay reachability is *good* for clients. I think that is a part of the relay guide that we can improve: Relays exist so that clients can use the network. Consensus flags exist so that clients can use the network efficiently. Bandwidth weights are assigned so that clients can use the network efficiently. > What seems strange to me is that I see there is a “running” flag. This flag > seems pointless to me if the relay is just completely removed from the > conseoucsus if it’s detected as not currently running to begin with; You're right, the Running flag is historical, and kept for backwards compatibility. (We used to list relays that were not Running, but removed them from the consensus to save client bandwidth.) > why not just give an “X” flag if the relay is unreachable for three days or > so? Remember: consensus flags exist so that clients can use the network efficiently. How would clients use a NotRunningForThreeDays flag? T ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
> On 28 Jun 2018, at 11:45, Keifer Bly wrote: > > It is also a pain at times keeping the OS, especially on macOS, the newer > versions of which my not support older machines, up to date while trying to > keep the relay stable, as relay status is changed so quickly (removing relays > from the conseoucsus list within 40 mins) which can be troublesome for areas > that sometimes experience power outages, which happens during winter where my > relay is run. But a 60 minute turnaround for relay reachability is *good* for clients. I think that is a part of the relay guide that we can improve: Relays exist so that clients can use the network. Consensus flags exist so that clients can use the network efficiently. Bandwidth weights are assigned so that clients can use the network efficiently. > What seems strange to me is that I see there is a “running” flag. This flag > seems pointless to me if the relay is just completely removed from the > conseoucsus if it’s detected as not currently running to begin with; You're right, the Running flag is historical, and kept for backwards compatibility. (We used to list relays that were not Running, but removed them from the consensus to save client bandwidth.) > why not just give an “X” flag if the relay is unreachable for three days or > so? Remember: consensus flags exist so that clients can use the network efficiently. How would clients use a NotRunningForThreeDays flag? T ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
Before I started running a relay, one thing I wish I had known was that a relay has to be running for about three months and also continuously be offering 2mb/s network traffic to be used as a Guard relay. This is difficult If running a relay in the United States, as most ISPS in the US (or at least the major ones such as Charter, Comcast, AT, etc.) are cable ISPS, making even getting, let alone maintaining this speed to a relay very difficult (or impossible). As a result my relay is only ever used as a middle node. ➢ For others, there might be a learning curve in keeping a network service up with decent uptime, while updating the relevant ports and operating system. Yes, this is the most annoying thing for me. I had a glitch last night where my relay became unreachable for several hours because my router decided to change what device the port forwarding was for for some reason (I had not logged I the router and done this). It is also a pain at times keeping the OS, especially on macOS, the newer versions of which my not support older machines, up to date while trying to keep the relay stable, as relay status is changed so quickly (removing relays from the conseoucsus list within 40 mins) which can be troublesome for areas that sometimes experience power outages, which happens during winter where my relay is run. What seems strange to me is that I see there is a “running” flag. This flag seems pointless to me if the relay is just completely removed from the conseoucsus if it’s detected as not currently running to begin with; why not just give an “X” flag if the relay is unreachable for three days or so? Let me know what you all think. From: George Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 1:39 PM To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: [tor-relays] A general question for relay operators Greetings relay operators. A question that came up offline for relay operators can be summed up in one sentence, paraphrased from flexlibris: as a relay operator, what "things" do you wish you knew before you started running a relay? I'm really curious, in particular, to hear from those relay operators who are less connected to others, and are maybe more isolated physically from the community. In the long-ago past, many of us ran exit nodes without giving it much thought or preparation leading to ISP issues, but that seems less common today. For others, there might be a learning curve in keeping a network service up with decent uptime, while updating the relevant ports and operating system. There's no irrelevant answers to this, including more boring issues such as paying for the relay, choosing a provider or experiences as a (conscious) exit node operator. Bonus point for showing relation between your total costs per 1Mbps. Not only should this discussion be useful on list, but it might provide more content for the relay operator guide. g -- 34A6 0A1F F8EF B465 866F F0C5 5D92 1FD1 ECF6 1682 ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
[tor-relays] A general question for relay operators
Greetings relay operators. A question that came up offline for relay operators can be summed up in one sentence, paraphrased from flexlibris: as a relay operator, what "things" do you wish you knew before you started running a relay? I'm really curious, in particular, to hear from those relay operators who are less connected to others, and are maybe more isolated physically from the community. In the long-ago past, many of us ran exit nodes without giving it much thought or preparation leading to ISP issues, but that seems less common today. For others, there might be a learning curve in keeping a network service up with decent uptime, while updating the relevant ports and operating system. There's no irrelevant answers to this, including more boring issues such as paying for the relay, choosing a provider or experiences as a (conscious) exit node operator. Bonus point for showing relation between your total costs per 1Mbps. Not only should this discussion be useful on list, but it might provide more content for the relay operator guide. g -- 34A6 0A1F F8EF B465 866F F0C5 5D92 1FD1 ECF6 1682 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
