Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[I]

There was some excellent comedy when the Prime Minister and Attorney-General 
and even the tech head were asked to define metadata.

Robert


___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[teor]

> On 5 Sep 2017, at 11:18, Paul Templeton  wrote:
> 
>> So, in Australia, if you're running a Tor relay, it's actually easier to
>> *not* be an ISP.
> 
> I'm testing this with AGs department - I have put in a request to see if Tor 
> falls outside of the scope - That is it's not a commercial service. The law 
> only states commercial services that you charge for or make money from.
> 
> They are taking their time to respond.
> 
> Paul
> 
> PS - I didn't state what services I was deploying just it wasn't a commercial 
> service and I'm trying to find a lawyer to help navigate.

I remember hearing that another organisation tried to get an explicit
"not in scope" from AGs. It took them a long while to get a response.
(I don't have a specific reference, sorry.)

T
--
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)

teor2345 at gmail dot com
PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B
ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n




signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Paul Templeton]

> So, in Australia, if you're running a Tor relay, it's actually easier to
> *not* be an ISP. 

I'm testing this with AGs department - I have put in a request to see if Tor 
falls outside of the scope - That is it's not a commercial service. The law 
only states commercial services that you charge for or make money from.

They are taking their time to respond.

Paul

PS - I didn't state what services I was deploying just it wasn't a commercial 
service and I'm trying to find a lawyer to help navigate.
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[teor]

> On 4 Sep 2017, at 11:28, Paul Templeton  wrote:
> 
> > Could you please define “Metadata”? Server connections? That would be quite 
> > a bit with a high traffic tor relay …
> 
> https://www.ag.gov.au/dataretention
> 
> Should answer your questions.

... but it doesn't really contain the level of detail we need, just a
list of categories and examples.

While no-one has yet tested Australia's Data Retention laws in court,
here's what I understand. (I am not a lawyer, get your own lawyer.)

Each "licenced carrier[], carriage service provider[] and internet
service provider[]" is required to submit a plan stating the precise
(meta)data they will retain.

Here are some things that aren't in the FAQ:

1. These lists of retained data for each provider are not public.
2. Providers may retain and produce more data than the minimum.
3. Other entities are not required to retain data under the scheme.

So, in Australia, if you're running a Tor relay, it's actually easier to
*not* be an ISP. And it's likely better for Tor users, too, because
you're not required to retain any of their data. (And you have access
to more user data than the ISP[0], because some of it is encrypted[1].)

[0]: or data centre provider, see 8.2 in
 
https://www.ag.gov.au/NationalSecurity/DataRetention/Documents/DataRetentionIndustryFAQS.pdf
[1]: Tor relays know the source and destination circuit ids, and Guards
 know the duration of the communication more precisely than an
 ISP-level observer.

T
--
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)

teor2345 at gmail dot com
PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B
ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n




signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Paul Templeton]

> Could you please define “Metadata”? Server connections? That would be quite a 
> bit with a high traffic tor relay … 

https://www.ag.gov.au/dataretention 

Should answer your questions. 

Paul 
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[grarpamp]

These days, layer 3 IP is nothing other than handy identifier
for layer 2 and below traffic characterization and probing.
So long as everyone continues whining about bandwidth, which
can perhaps be mostly free at link layer, or are being anti-mix,
as starter defenses... they'll get no solution. IMO, ATM.
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[x9p]

> Could you please define “Metadata”? Server connections? That would be
> quite a bit with a high traffic tor relay …
>
> niftybunny
>

Generally speaking I believe metadata is source IP, Source port,
Destination IP, Destination port, timestamp of connections.

For the USA government and other dictatorships, metadata for sure has
other meaning, as most of it include raw content from users, nationals,
foreigners, cell phone tower information, etc..


___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[x9p]

> If you're a subscriber of such an ISP, it's turtles, such ISP has same
> data as
> you would anyways, thus this irrelavant. Only way to evade is with an
> anti-GPA
> network analysis design which tor doesn't and won't provide.
>

Wondering what an anti-GPA network analysis is...

___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[niftybunny]

Could you please define “Metadata”? Server connections? That would be quite a 
bit with a high traffic tor relay …

niftybunny

“For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our 
citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'”
--David Cameron, 2015




> On 26. Aug 2017, at 14:18, teor  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 26 Aug 2017, at 20:38, Paul Templeton  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> If you're interested in becoming your own ISP (obtaining your own ASN,
>>> IPv6 and IPv4 scopes), you'll need to apply via APNIC, as I did in the
>>> US with ARIN. Here is an example:
>> 
>> Would if I could - but here in AU you have to log all metadata for two years 
>> if you are an ISP.
>> 
>> I either listen to what others have stated and host overseas or host 
>> overseas...
>> 
>> I might be able to get a 20/20Mbs fibre for AU$250 - Just waiting to find 
>> out if they have data caps or not.
>> 
>> Thanx all for your input.
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> PS - whats more important - More bandwidth for exit nodes or a faster 
>> presence in AU???
> 
> Tor clients will be faster if there is more exit bandwidth in the
> network.
> 
> "Where?" is a complicated question.
> 
> Australia has high overseas latency, high bandwidth costs, and metadata
> retention. But I know of cases where the jurisdictional arbitrage has
> been convenient.
> 
> T
> 
> --
> Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)
> 
> teor2345 at gmail dot com
> PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B
> ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n
> xmpp: teor at torproject dot org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> tor-relays mailing list
> tor-relays@lists.torproject.org 
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays 
> 
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[grarpamp]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Paul Templeton  wrote:
>> If you're interested in becoming your own ISP (obtaining your own ASN,
>> IPv6 and IPv4 scopes), you'll need to apply via APNIC, as I did in the
>> US with ARIN.
>
> Would if I could - but here in AU you have to log all metadata for two years 
> if you are an ISP.

If you're a subscriber of such an ISP, it's turtles, such ISP has same data as
you would anyways, thus this irrelavant. Only way to evade is with an anti-GPA
network analysis design which tor doesn't and won't provide.

Still, if in thinly connected diff juris / geo lands, and reasonably
funded, don't
hesitate to contact fiber landing co's for discount feed / colo / own ISP.
Because juris / geo on the cheap, which may be benefit upon analysis.
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[teor]

> On 26 Aug 2017, at 20:38, Paul Templeton  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> If you're interested in becoming your own ISP (obtaining your own ASN,
>> IPv6 and IPv4 scopes), you'll need to apply via APNIC, as I did in the
>> US with ARIN. Here is an example:
> 
> Would if I could - but here in AU you have to log all metadata for two years 
> if you are an ISP.
> 
> I either listen to what others have stated and host overseas or host 
> overseas...
> 
> I might be able to get a 20/20Mbs fibre for AU$250 - Just waiting to find out 
> if they have data caps or not.
> 
> Thanx all for your input.
> 
> Paul
> 
> PS - whats more important - More bandwidth for exit nodes or a faster 
> presence in AU???

Tor clients will be faster if there is more exit bandwidth in the
network.

"Where?" is a complicated question.

Australia has high overseas latency, high bandwidth costs, and metadata
retention. But I know of cases where the jurisdictional arbitrage has
been convenient.

T

--
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)

teor2345 at gmail dot com
PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B
ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n
xmpp: teor at torproject dot org






signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Paul Templeton]

> If you're interested in becoming your own ISP (obtaining your own ASN,
> IPv6 and IPv4 scopes), you'll need to apply via APNIC, as I did in the
> US with ARIN. Here is an example:

Would if I could - but here in AU you have to log all metadata for two years if 
you are an ISP.

I either listen to what others have stated and host overseas or host overseas...

I might be able to get a 20/20Mbs fibre for AU$250 - Just waiting to find out 
if they have data caps or not.

Thanx all for your input.

Paul

PS - whats more important - More bandwidth for exit nodes or a faster presence 
in AU???
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Christopher]

Hi,

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Paul Templeton  wrote:
> Thanx to all here on the list for input to earlier posts. Helped a lot.
>
> Question I have is there anywhere where you can get a block of IP address or 
> lease as I'm in the process of getting a 10/10Mb SHDSL service(No flaming 
> data cap :-)) here in AU but I want an IP range that abuse questions can be 
> forwarded to me. The service provider doesn't provide ARIN registration but 
> said if I have my own block I can update the BG and manage it my self.

If you're interested in becoming your own ISP (obtaining your own ASN,
IPv6 and IPv4 scopes), you'll need to apply via APNIC, as I did in the
US with ARIN. Here is an example:

1. Find co-location space in AU with good prices. Be transparent and
educational about what you plan on doing so your provider isn't
surprised. You would need to get a quote from them for 2U of space, 2
amps of power, 100Mbps commit on a 1G port, and a /28 or greater. You
need two low power systems, one router (pfsense, opnsense, etc) for
BGP and general routing, and one system for Tor processes. You will
run middle relays until you get your own IP scopes -- rDNS and SWIP is
not enough to get all abuse to come directly to you.

2. Once you have your /28 (etc) IPv4 scope (Tor still depends on v4),
you can apply to APNIC for ASN and IP scopes. I encourage you to
prioritize IPv6, but v4 is still required. You need to show current IP
usage in order to apply for, and be granted, your own IP scopes
(chicken before the egg). ARIN is $550 for ASN, and $500 each for v6
(/36) and v4 (/24) scopes. Each item is $100 recurring annually, but I
don't know what APNIC charges for any of those things.

3. Once you have your own AS and IPs, you'll need to sign a BGP Letter
of Agency (LOA) with your transit provider so they can announce your
IP scopes upstream. Then you can then change your IPs and begin exit
relaying if you're comfortable with that.

So, there's lots of details that I didn't go into, obviously this
example depends on many things and also requires knowledge of certain
systems and legality. Doing all of this will require a couple thousand
dollars and fortitude, especially if you are new to networking. Happy
to help further if needed.

Cheers,

Yawnbox
https://emeraldonion.org/


>
> Regards,
>
> Paul
> PS - the best price I can do at the moment is $550pm - *SIGH* - but worth it.
> ___
> tor-relays mailing list
> tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[niftybunny]

One year ago we were trying the same in the Asia region with DigitalOcean. We 
did not get a lot of traffic because of the few tor relays / bandwidth 
authorities in Asia. At the moment your best chance in helping Tor with 
bandwidth is buying a server in Europe or parts of the USA. If you have really 
good patience try your style in DownUnder or any near Asia country. Japan has a 
lot of cheap servers and is near you, at least its nearer than Germany where I 
am sitting :)

niftybunny

PS: Congratulations on beating the USA with DataCaps and ridiculous DSL prices 
:/

“For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our 
citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'”
--David Cameron, 2015




> On 24. Aug 2017, at 08:32, Paul Templeton  wrote:
> 
> OVH has this in AU
> 
> 5.9
> For security reasons, OVH reserves the right to proceed with the immediate 
> suspension without 
> notice, of any Server on which there is a public service Proxy, IRC, VPN or 
> TOR which is available free 
> of charge or for a fee, and for which OVH has knowledge of its fraudulent or 
> illegal misuse.
> 
>> with Tor's overall architecture, does it really make sense to
>> route e.g. EU clients exiting to EU destinations,
> 
> True - Wanted to add to the diversity in location and OS.
> 
> Will look at other jurisdictions for better service... Still looking but so 
> far all have data caps. 
> 
> I really want a decent exit node here in AU but getting perplexed. 
> 
> I'll sleep on it...
> 
> Paul
> ___
> tor-relays mailing list
> tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Paul Templeton]

OVH has this in AU

5.9
For security reasons, OVH reserves the right to proceed with the immediate 
suspension without 
notice, of any Server on which there is a public service Proxy, IRC, VPN or TOR 
which is available free 
of charge or for a fee, and for which OVH has knowledge of its fraudulent or 
illegal misuse.

> with Tor's overall architecture, does it really make sense to
> route e.g. EU clients exiting to EU destinations,

True - Wanted to add to the diversity in location and OS.

Will look at other jurisdictions for better service... Still looking but so far 
all have data caps. 

I really want a decent exit node here in AU but getting perplexed. 

I'll sleep on it...

Paul
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Roman Mamedov]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 01:30:13 + (UTC)
Paul Templeton  wrote:

> At the moment there are 50 nodes in Australia with the fastest running at
> 357Kbs and only two exit nodes - fastest is 100Kbs. Its a reflection on the
> state of politics and the level of service that is provided by ISP's. 

I feel this can be in part a reflection of Tor's particular bandwidth
measurement method, as teor has mentioned in a previous reply.

And in any case, with Tor's overall architecture, does it really make sense to
route e.g. EU clients exiting to EU destinations, via Tor circuits going
through Australian nodes and back. I guess this is still an area open for
further research and optimization.

-- 
With respect,
Roman
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Paul Templeton]

Thanx Tim,


> * reverse DNS pointing to your domain, and
I would do it anyway

> * registration services like abuse.net.
Will look into it

> ovh.com.au
Pricing ok - may be the better option - 100Mbs unlimited - [i'll give them a 
call and see what they have/can do.] - I just rang them they have data caps... 
*SIGH*

Other hosting providers have TOS that are hostile and some have data caps:(. <- 
that's a pimple on my chin...

10/10Mb SHDSL - I should really say about 8Mbs symmetrical - that is with 
typical a ping of about 24-30ms across the country.

Regards,

Paul

___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[teor]

Hey,

Thanks for running a relay!

> On 24 Aug 2017, at 10:29, Paul Templeton  wrote:
> 
> is there anywhere where you can get a block of IP address or lease as I'm in 
> the process of getting a 10/10Mb SHDSL service(No flaming data cap :-)) here 
> in AU

Are you sure an Australian relay will use most* of that link?

Tor relays are measured for bandwidth and latency, mainly from the US
and western Europe. This means that some locations don't get much client
bandwidth allocation. (We're working on this.)

Measurement details:
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/BandwidthAuthorityMeasurements

Other factors that can make a relay slow:
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/MyRelayIsSlow

* ideally, 60% or so, because congestion increases latency

> but I want an IP range that abuse questions can be forwarded to me.

There are alternative ways to register a range for abuse complaints.
Two of the most common are:
* reverse DNS pointing to your domain, and
* registration services like abuse.net.

> The service provider doesn't provide ARIN registration but said if I have my 
> own block I can update the BG and manage it my self.

If you're in Australia, do you want APNIC registration instead?

> PS - the best price I can do at the moment is $550pm - *SIGH* - but worth it.

You can rent a 1 Gbps dedicated server in North America or Europe for
much less than this. (In 2016, it was around USD 200 per month.) Our
provider also offers IP addresses for a once-off charge of USD 3 per
address. They've recently opened a data centre in Australia, so it
might be worth checking out ovh.com.au . (But they are already one of
the top Tor relay providers.)

There may be similar deals in other jurisdictions with fewer Tor
relays.

It's completely up to you.

T

--
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)

teor2345 at gmail dot com
PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B
ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n
xmpp: teor at torproject dot org






signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Paul Templeton]

Thanx niftybunny, 

It's more political than anything. With the constant changes in policy driving 
censorship I feel that having a strong presence is important. 

At the moment there are 50 nodes in Australia with the fastest running at 
357Kbs and only two exit nodes - fastest is 100Kbs. Its a reflection on the 
state of politics and the level of service that is provided by ISP's. 

Yes I could run more nodes in VMs around the world but at this stage I would 
like to investigate a strong presence here in AU. 

Regards, 

Paul 


- Original Message -

From: "niftybunny" <ab...@to-surf-and-protect.net> 
To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:41:12 AM 
Subject: Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there? 

The smallest block you can advertise with your own AD is a /24 as far as I 
know. Getting a IPv4 /24 is …. expensive and hard to get. If you are not 
incredible rich and very tech savvy and a hardcore Tor supporter: Forget it. 
Get yourself a few virtual servers. 

niftybunny 

“For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our 
citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'” 
--David Cameron, 2015 







On 24. Aug 2017, at 02:29, Paul Templeton < p...@coffswifi.net > wrote: 

Thanx to all here on the list for input to earlier posts. Helped a lot. 

Question I have is there anywhere where you can get a block of IP address or 
lease as I'm in the process of getting a 10/10Mb SHDSL service(No flaming data 
cap :-)) here in AU but I want an IP range that abuse questions can be 
forwarded to me. The service provider doesn't provide ARIN registration but 
said if I have my own block I can update the BG and manage it my self. 

Regards, 

Paul 
PS - the best price I can do at the moment is $550pm - *SIGH* - but worth it. 
___ 
tor-relays mailing list 
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org 
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays 





___ 
tor-relays mailing list 
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org 
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays 

___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

Re: [tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[niftybunny]

The smallest block you can advertise with your own AD is a /24 as far as I 
know. Getting a IPv4 /24 is …. expensive and hard to get. If you are not 
incredible rich and very tech savvy and a hardcore Tor supporter: Forget it. 
Get yourself a few virtual servers.

niftybunny 

“For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our 
citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'”
--David Cameron, 2015




> On 24. Aug 2017, at 02:29, Paul Templeton  wrote:
> 
> Thanx to all here on the list for input to earlier posts. Helped a lot.
> 
> Question I have is there anywhere where you can get a block of IP address or 
> lease as I'm in the process of getting a 10/10Mb SHDSL service(No flaming 
> data cap :-)) here in AU but I want an IP range that abuse questions can be 
> forwarded to me. The service provider doesn't provide ARIN registration but 
> said if I have my own block I can update the BG and manage it my self.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Paul
> PS - the best price I can do at the moment is $550pm - *SIGH* - but worth it.
> ___
> tor-relays mailing list
> tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays

[tor-relays] Any IP allocations available out there?

[Paul Templeton]

Thanx to all here on the list for input to earlier posts. Helped a lot.

Question I have is there anywhere where you can get a block of IP address or 
lease as I'm in the process of getting a 10/10Mb SHDSL service(No flaming data 
cap :-)) here in AU but I want an IP range that abuse questions can be 
forwarded to me. The service provider doesn't provide ARIN registration but 
said if I have my own block I can update the BG and manage it my self.

Regards,

Paul
PS - the best price I can do at the moment is $550pm - *SIGH* - but worth it.
___
tor-relays mailing list
tor-relays@lists.torproject.org
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays