Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Hi all, I think the new website looks pretty nice, it has a good looking design and everything. But if I may, there is one question I have, where can the tor expert bundle be downloaded from now? Thank you. --Keifer On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:32 PM Lars Noodén wrote: > On 3/30/19 6:30 AM, Lars Noodén wrote: > > On 3/30/19 1:28 AM, Dave Warren wrote: > >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, at 06:28, Lars Noodén wrote: > >>> On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote: > Lars Noodén: > > [snip] > > > But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS > > media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of > > orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen > desktops > > all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values. > > Thanks for the feedback. I opened > https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that. > > Georg > >>> > >>> Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of > >>> differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it > >>> looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all > >>> visitors regardless. > >> > >> Interestingly the /about/people/ page does seem to be responsive, > handling various browser widths. > > > > But not the various browser heights. The header is still consuming > > space even when one scrolls to the end of that page. > > > > /Lars > > Sorry for the self-reply. I meant to write 'toward' instead of 'to' > > /Lars > > > > ___ > tor-relays mailing list > tor-relays@lists.torproject.org > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays > ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On 3/30/19 6:30 AM, Lars Noodén wrote: > On 3/30/19 1:28 AM, Dave Warren wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, at 06:28, Lars Noodén wrote: >>> On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote: Lars Noodén: [snip] > But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS > media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of > orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops > all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values. Thanks for the feedback. I opened https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that. Georg >>> >>> Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of >>> differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it >>> looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all >>> visitors regardless. >> >> Interestingly the /about/people/ page does seem to be responsive, handling >> various browser widths. > > But not the various browser heights. The header is still consuming > space even when one scrolls to the end of that page. > > /Lars Sorry for the self-reply. I meant to write 'toward' instead of 'to' /Lars ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On 3/30/19 1:28 AM, Dave Warren wrote: > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, at 06:28, Lars Noodén wrote: >> On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote: >>> Lars Noodén: >>> >>> [snip] >>> But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values. >>> >>> Thanks for the feedback. I opened >>> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that. >>> >>> Georg >> >> Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of >> differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it >> looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all >> visitors regardless. > > Interestingly the /about/people/ page does seem to be responsive, handling > various browser widths. But not the various browser heights. The header is still consuming space even when one scrolls to the end of that page. /Lars ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, at 06:28, Lars Noodén wrote: > On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote: > > Lars Noodén: > > > > [snip] > > > >> But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS > >> media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of > >> orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops > >> all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values. > > > > Thanks for the feedback. I opened > > https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that. > > > > Georg > > Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of > differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it > looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all > visitors regardless. Interestingly the /about/people/ page does seem to be responsive, handling various browser widths. ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
How about a 'site map' at the bottom. Then one could easily navigate to their desired page. On 2019-03-27 5:40 p.m., I wrote: Thanks. I think that would be better called Guides. -Original Message- *From:* pter...@gmail.com On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 22:10, I wrote: > > Where is the equivalent of https://www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en? https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en (From the Documentation link at the top) ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On 3/28/19 11:14 AM, Georg Koppen wrote:
> Lars Noodén:
>
> [snip]
>
>> But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS
>> media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of
>> orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops
>> all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values.
>
> Thanks for the feedback. I opened
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that.
>
> Georg
Ok. Thanks. I mean that the CSS 'media' rule itself is incapable of
differentiating screen types. So with the Tor Project's web page, it
looks like the route was take to pus a mobile style layout onto all
visitors regardless.
I do notice that there is an additional rule set for print. If I were
to print, I would want the URLs to be visible on the page:
@media print {
a {
font-weight: bolder;
text-decoration: none;
}
a[href^=http]:after {
content:" <" attr(href) "> ";
}
However, my main reason for getting involved in the thread is a request
to allow the banner to scroll so it is not clogging up the window and
blocking up the content. Therefore the second line here needs to go:
.fixed-top {
position: fixed;
top: 0;
right: 0;
left: 0;
z-index: 1030;
}
So that it becomes
.fixed-top {
top: 0;
right: 0;
left: 0;
z-index: 1030;
}
and thus allows scrolling.
/Lars
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Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Lars Noodén: [snip] > But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS > media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of > orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops > all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values. Thanks for the feedback. I opened https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29934 for that. Georg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On 3/28/19 12:34 AM, Mirimir wrote: > On 03/27/2019 09:10 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote: >> Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes: >> >> Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious >> vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor >> source code. >> >> I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the >> shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and >> exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not >> some management summary. >> >> Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website? >> >> Annoyed, >> Ralph > > Well, it's obviously targeted at mobile devices. > > And it's too bad that there's no link to a desktop version. Part of the problem, for my use, is the banner which is fixed and won't scroll out of the way, eating up screen real estate instead of showing the information I am looking for. I've gotten rather quick with editing via the browser's Inspect Element function in other contexts, it can be used here too. However, it would be better if the page were designed with more usability in mind. As for the information I was looking for, the web site's apparent exclusive focus on just the Tor Browser is a big negative change for those looking for Tor itself. But about the problematic layout that now exists, in general, the CSS media rule mixes all types of screens together regardless of orientation, aspect ratio or size. So mobile and multi-screen desktops all fall under the 'all' or 'screen' values. /Lars ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Alison, can you please share a link to the results of 'user testing as well as research on usability, accessibility, and localization'? I most definitely welcome the idea of making Tor look modern (and would like to help if I can) but it would be good to see what standards the development team is following to get there. I remember the 2018 redesign of Tor Metrics that prompted similar negative responses. Back then there was a giant quote taking up the top 1/3rd of the screen. Now half of my screen is covered with a large slogan that looks like a pornsite ad: "Browse privately. Explore freely.". At the bottom there is a header called "About Us" that is smaller than the others but the text under that header is enormous. Clicking "Documentation" at the very top takes me to the old white-green design. Etc. Nobody deserves punishment by the way. You all deserve enormous kudos for working on Tor. On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 10:39 AM Alison Macrina wrote: > > Ralph Seichter: > > * Matthew Finkel: > > > >> Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful of the > >> time, effort, and skill that went into launching the new website. It's > >> unfortunate you do not appreciate or like the new site, but that does > >> not excuse you. > > > > Disrespectful for you, maybe. I did not name names. Besides, I won't > > feign to care about time and effort spent when I consider the result not > > worth said time and effort. I don't hand out medals or diplomas for > > trying/participating. You probably get the gist. ;-) > > I agree with Matthew that your email was very rude. Basic human decency > is not "hand[ing] out medals or diplomas for trying/participating". > Please do better. We are all working hard on Tor, many of us volunteers, > and we should treat one another as community. > > > > >> This new website is significantly better and more welcoming for the > >> general population, rather than a small percentage of the population. > > > > I respect your right to have that opinion, although I disagree. What > > metrics you believe to support your "significantly better" I don't know. > > The redesign efforts were based on user testing as well as research on > usability, accessibility, and localization. I am personally excited for > how much easier it will be for our users to find what they're looking > for, and how much easier it will be to translate this new site into many > languages. > > > > >> If you have suggestions for improving the new design, then please let > >> us know. > > > > I suggest reverting to the previous website design. That design was, > > IMO, "welcoming for the general population" in the sense that it treated > > visitors as intelligent beings, capable of reading more than a few > > buzzwords. I find it alarming that a certain school of web designers > > these days seem to think their audience has the attention span of fruit > > flies. From where I am standing, *that* is disrespectful. > > > > -Ralph > > Okay, you are entitled to your opinion as well. Please also be kind. And > finally, this is a mailing list for tor-relays. Please stay on topic. > > Alison > ___ > tor-relays mailing list > tor-relays@lists.torproject.org > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On 03/27/2019 03:50 PM, Dave Warren wrote: > On 2019-03-27 16:34, Mirimir wrote: >> On 03/27/2019 09:10 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote: >>> Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes: >>> >>> Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious >>> vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor >>> source code. >>> >>> I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the >>> shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and >>> exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not >>> some management summary. >>> >>> Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website? >>> >>> Annoyed, >>> Ralph >> >> Well, it's obviously targeted at mobile devices. >> >> And it's too bad that there's no link to a desktop version. > > Works fine from my desktop. Perhaps you have your browser window sized > to mimic a mobile device? I didn't say that it didn't "work". I said that it's "targeted at mobile devices". And it obviously is. Narrow. Huge typefaces. Huge images. And worse, it doesn't even flow into multiple columns with large windows. It all just gets bigger. Even I could hack that, and I'm no web developer. See https://vpntesting.info/. In mobile devices, it's one column. In desktops, it's two columns. ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Thanks. I think that would be better called Guides.-Original Message-From: pter...@gmail.comOn Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 22:10, I wrote:>> Where is the equivalent of https://www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en?https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en (From theDocumentation link at the top) ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On 2019-03-27 16:34, Mirimir wrote: On 03/27/2019 09:10 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote: Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes: Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code. I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary. Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website? Annoyed, Ralph Well, it's obviously targeted at mobile devices. And it's too bad that there's no link to a desktop version. Works fine from my desktop. Perhaps you have your browser window sized to mimic a mobile device? ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 22:10, I wrote: > > Where is the equivalent of https://www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en? https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en (From the Documentation link at the top) ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
On 03/27/2019 09:10 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote: > Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes: > > Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious > vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor > source code. > > I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the > shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and > exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not > some management summary. > > Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website? > > Annoyed, > Ralph Well, it's obviously targeted at mobile devices. And it's too bad that there's no link to a desktop version. ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Where is the equivalent of https://www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en? ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
* Alison Macrina: > I agree with Matthew that your email was very rude. I don't. "Satire, artistic form, chiefly literary and dramatic, in which human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, parody, caricature, or other methods [...]" (From: https://www.britannica.com/art/satire) Oh, the pitfalls of nonverbal communication... > And finally, this is a mailing list for tor-relays. Please stay on > topic. Finally? :-D What nerve. No longer being able to easily access the Tor documentation and source code *is* on topic here. That's the reason I posted in the first place. -Ralph ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Ralph Seichter: > * Matthew Finkel: > >> Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful of the >> time, effort, and skill that went into launching the new website. It's >> unfortunate you do not appreciate or like the new site, but that does >> not excuse you. > > Disrespectful for you, maybe. I did not name names. Besides, I won't > feign to care about time and effort spent when I consider the result not > worth said time and effort. I don't hand out medals or diplomas for > trying/participating. You probably get the gist. ;-) I agree with Matthew that your email was very rude. Basic human decency is not "hand[ing] out medals or diplomas for trying/participating". Please do better. We are all working hard on Tor, many of us volunteers, and we should treat one another as community. > >> This new website is significantly better and more welcoming for the >> general population, rather than a small percentage of the population. > > I respect your right to have that opinion, although I disagree. What > metrics you believe to support your "significantly better" I don't know. The redesign efforts were based on user testing as well as research on usability, accessibility, and localization. I am personally excited for how much easier it will be for our users to find what they're looking for, and how much easier it will be to translate this new site into many languages. > >> If you have suggestions for improving the new design, then please let >> us know. > > I suggest reverting to the previous website design. That design was, > IMO, "welcoming for the general population" in the sense that it treated > visitors as intelligent beings, capable of reading more than a few > buzzwords. I find it alarming that a certain school of web designers > these days seem to think their audience has the attention span of fruit > flies. From where I am standing, *that* is disrespectful. > > -Ralph Okay, you are entitled to your opinion as well. Please also be kind. And finally, this is a mailing list for tor-relays. Please stay on topic. Alison ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
* Matthew Finkel: > Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful of the > time, effort, and skill that went into launching the new website. It's > unfortunate you do not appreciate or like the new site, but that does > not excuse you. Disrespectful for you, maybe. I did not name names. Besides, I won't feign to care about time and effort spent when I consider the result not worth said time and effort. I don't hand out medals or diplomas for trying/participating. You probably get the gist. ;-) > This new website is significantly better and more welcoming for the > general population, rather than a small percentage of the population. I respect your right to have that opinion, although I disagree. What metrics you believe to support your "significantly better" I don't know. > If you have suggestions for improving the new design, then please let > us know. I suggest reverting to the previous website design. That design was, IMO, "welcoming for the general population" in the sense that it treated visitors as intelligent beings, capable of reading more than a few buzzwords. I find it alarming that a certain school of web designers these days seem to think their audience has the attention span of fruit flies. From where I am standing, *that* is disrespectful. -Ralph ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Hi Ralph, On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 05:10:08PM +0100, Ralph Seichter wrote: > Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes: > > Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious > vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor > source code. Please be respectful. The tone of this message is disrespectful of the time, effort, and skill that went into launching the new website. It's unfortunate you do not appreciate or like the new site, but that does not excuse you. The source code has not moved, it is still available at gitweb.torproject.org, as usual. If you're looking for the download page, then there is an open bug for that, see [0]. [0] https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29907 > > I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the > shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and > exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not > some management summary. Thank you for running these relay, we all appreciate it. The website, however, is intended for a diverse audience, and most people are not familiar with Tor. This new website is significantly better and more welcoming for the general population, rather than a small percentage of the population. If you have suggestions for improving the new design, then please let us know. Sincerely, Matt ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Re: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
It looks like fastfood for consumers :) But any TOR consumer is a good consumer :) Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. März 2019 um 17:10 Uhr Von: "Ralph Seichter" An: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Betreff: [tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment? Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes: Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code. I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary. Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website? Annoyed, Ralph ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
[tor-relays] Tor website overhaul -- who deserves punishment?
Not sure if this is the right place to vent, but here goes: Whoever changed the Tor website's design seems to a) have a serious vision impairment and b) done his utmost to hide access to the Tor source code. I think the site feels dumbed down to cater only to those with the shortest attention spans (and bad eyesight) now. Also, as a relay and exit operator, I care most about the source code and documentation, not some management summary. Was there no QA process involved before rolling out the new website? Annoyed, Ralph ___ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
