Re: [tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum allegedly intimidated victims into silence and anonymity

[Tempest]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

ja.talk:

> In a white male-dominated technology industry, stories of sexism, 
> racism, and harassment are commonplace. Although companies and 
> conferences are making efforts to improve representation and fix a 
> culture where harassment is accepted, it remains pervasive.
> 
> Tan has a message he wants to send out to any other potential 
> victims: “What is important now is, if you are a victim, do not be 
> afraid. You are not alone. There are people who will support you.”
> 
> If you are a victim of sexual assault or want more information on 
> sexual assault, contact the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network 
> at 1-800-656-HOPE (4673). If you are a victim of domestic abuse or 
> want more information on domestic violence and resources for 
> victims, contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline online or 
> at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233).


and this is the big issue. so tired of hearing people talk about "due
process" as if it applies to social discourse. it's doesn't. due
process is for the state. if it happened, speak out. this bull shit
needs to end. 0 tolerance.

- -- 
gpg key - 0x2A49578A7291BB34
fingerprint - 63C4 E106 AC6A 5F2F DDB2 3840 2A49 578A 7291 BB34
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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=YU02
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum allegedly intimidated victims into silence and anonymity

[Cecilia Tanaka]

Well, I told some bad indiscreet gossip about my old noisy neighbours...
Sorry, hihi!  It was funny, but it was much better in Portuguese,
hahaha!!!  ;))
On Jun 10, 2016 2:26 AM, "Mirimir"  wrote:

> On 06/09/2016 11:21 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> > Oh, sorry!!!  God, I need to have some sleep with urgence!  This private
> > letter was sent to the list for mistake, sorry!!!  :((
> >
> > Uh, instead dying in next Sunday, it will be better to die now!  What a
> > shame!  :((
>
> Hey, it was a sweet message :)
>
> 
> --
> tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
>
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum allegedly intimidated victims into silence and anonymity

[Mirimir]

On 06/09/2016 11:21 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> Oh, sorry!!!  God, I need to have some sleep with urgence!  This private
> letter was sent to the list for mistake, sorry!!!  :((
> 
> Uh, instead dying in next Sunday, it will be better to die now!  What a
> shame!  :((

Hey, it was a sweet message :)


-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum allegedly intimidated victims into silence and anonymity

[Cecilia Tanaka]

Oh, sorry!!!  God, I need to have some sleep with urgence!  This private
letter was sent to the list for mistake, sorry!!!  :((

Uh, instead dying in next Sunday, it will be better to die now!  What a
shame!  :((
On Jun 10, 2016 2:06 AM, "Cecilia Tanaka"  wrote:

> On Jun 9, 2016 8:17 PM,  wrote:
> the questioning by police is over you will feel relieved.
>
> > Off Topic till end of mail
> > @Cecilia Tanaka
> > Sorry if my posts weren't excellent and you feel to post your story and
> emotions. you are stronger than you think and your words are beautiful.
> > there will be no contract to feel safe from operations like this.
>
> Hi, tor_talk!  How are you doing?  :)
>
> Sorry for writing in private, but I don't want to kill all the people in
> the tor-talk list with my always too long and boring messages this time,
> haha!!  ;D
>
> Please, don't die of boredom or someone will say that I am a "killer
> defending a rapist" and I prefer when they call me "sociopath", haha!!  ;D
>
> Your posts always are excellent and I am thankful for all of them, my dear
> tor_talk.  Please, never be afraid of being yourself.
>
> All the times when I read your posts, I think  "Oh, I need to study German
> again"!  I can say "Ich Liebe Dich", "Tschüß", "Apfelstrudel" and
> "Milchreis" pretty well, but everybody thinks I am sneezing when I say
> "Entschuldigung", haha!!  ;)
>
> Even when speaking Portuguese, I have a kind of "cecilian" accent, a
> bizarre mix between Japanese and Italian accents, haha!!  When I was
> younger, for a considerable lapse of time, Italian was my second language.
> My Japanese is a disaster, even being my parents' language, so I never
> considered it as being my second language.  You can imagine how strange is
> when I try to speak English or German, hahaha!!!  ;D
>
> I tried some German several years ago and a little bit after falling in
> love with "the sweetest man in the world", mentioned before in another
> post.  He is a German engineer and saved my life several times in all
> possible senses, my dear.
>
> I am not strong as you think.  I never was.  I had almost no sleep in the
> last days and I've spent my whole day crying because I am missing my lost
> love.
>
> The Brazilian version of "Valentine's Day" will be in the next Sunday,
> June, 12, and I want to die all the minutes because I am seeing lots of
> sweet hearts and love stuff in all the places and medias and my heart
> breaks and breaks in an infinite pain, without never stopping...  It will
> be my first Brazilian Valentine's Day without a sweet message of him and I
> am sure that it will be the longest day of my life and I finally will die
> of sadness...  :'(
>
> Ah, sorry for spending so much of your time just explaining why I love
> German language and my German engineer and why I am not a strong person at
> all, haha!!  ;)
>
> I don't know the reason, but all my German friends have lots of infinite
> patience.  I really admire and envy it.  Don't tell anyone, but I think
> that "oriental patience" is not true.  I have almost no patience with
> anything, uh!  :P
>
> Well, I am a kind of 'zombie' in the last months.  I am still alive, but
> the best part of me definitely died when he stopped to love me.  :'(
>
> And now I need to learn how to make decent home-made Sauerkraut alone,
> uff...  Mine stinks.  Literally, stinks.  And I do love it in sandwiches,
> uff...  Why does love always make me suffer so much?  snif!  :'(
>
> > you wrote:
> > ...you didn't scream of pleasure loudly enough for all the neighbourhood
> knows
> > that I am a good lover! ...
> >
> > next time give this kind of lover a favor and do screams on tape to play
> whenever he visits you ;-) you can tune the volume up accordingly to your
> neighborhood. at the end of the tape: the screams you heard doesn't
> necessarily have a correlation to the skill or action of my partner. (it
> doesn't even necessarily indicate that someone has finished.)
>
> Hahaha!!!  I was just joking, haha!!  ;D
>
> Two years ago, I had a bizarre couple of neighbours and she was pretty
> younger than he, an old rich man.  So, all the times when they were having
> any sexual relation, she always was screaming extremely loud  - because he
> was almost deaf! -  that my neighbours' bizarre sounds became inspiration
> for a crazy project of mine at hackerspace, with the help of some
> engineers, haha!!  ;D
>
> I was so terribly stressed with all those f*cking sounds  - f* sounds in
> both senses, haha!! -  that, in a long stressing night, when I was
> finishing a pretty hard work, and she screamed much louder than my music, I
> had a kind of comical revenge...  :B
>
> When she screamed "I am feeling so hot, I am burning, I am in fire!!!", I
> screamed "Help, help!!!  Call the firefighters!!!  She is dying!!!".  All
> the stressed  neighbourhood laughed a lot for a long time, and, two days
> after it, the noisy couple moved to another place and I 

Re: [tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum allegedly intimidated victims into silence and anonymity

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Jun 9, 2016 8:17 PM,  wrote:
the questioning by police is over you will feel relieved.

> Off Topic till end of mail
> @Cecilia Tanaka
> Sorry if my posts weren't excellent and you feel to post your story and
emotions. you are stronger than you think and your words are beautiful.
> there will be no contract to feel safe from operations like this.

Hi, tor_talk!  How are you doing?  :)

Sorry for writing in private, but I don't want to kill all the people in
the tor-talk list with my always too long and boring messages this time,
haha!!  ;D

Please, don't die of boredom or someone will say that I am a "killer
defending a rapist" and I prefer when they call me "sociopath", haha!!  ;D

Your posts always are excellent and I am thankful for all of them, my dear
tor_talk.  Please, never be afraid of being yourself.

All the times when I read your posts, I think  "Oh, I need to study German
again"!  I can say "Ich Liebe Dich", "Tschüß", "Apfelstrudel" and
"Milchreis" pretty well, but everybody thinks I am sneezing when I say
"Entschuldigung", haha!!  ;)

Even when speaking Portuguese, I have a kind of "cecilian" accent, a
bizarre mix between Japanese and Italian accents, haha!!  When I was
younger, for a considerable lapse of time, Italian was my second language.
My Japanese is a disaster, even being my parents' language, so I never
considered it as being my second language.  You can imagine how strange is
when I try to speak English or German, hahaha!!!  ;D

I tried some German several years ago and a little bit after falling in
love with "the sweetest man in the world", mentioned before in another
post.  He is a German engineer and saved my life several times in all
possible senses, my dear.

I am not strong as you think.  I never was.  I had almost no sleep in the
last days and I've spent my whole day crying because I am missing my lost
love.

The Brazilian version of "Valentine's Day" will be in the next Sunday,
June, 12, and I want to die all the minutes because I am seeing lots of
sweet hearts and love stuff in all the places and medias and my heart
breaks and breaks in an infinite pain, without never stopping...  It will
be my first Brazilian Valentine's Day without a sweet message of him and I
am sure that it will be the longest day of my life and I finally will die
of sadness...  :'(

Ah, sorry for spending so much of your time just explaining why I love
German language and my German engineer and why I am not a strong person at
all, haha!!  ;)

I don't know the reason, but all my German friends have lots of infinite
patience.  I really admire and envy it.  Don't tell anyone, but I think
that "oriental patience" is not true.  I have almost no patience with
anything, uh!  :P

Well, I am a kind of 'zombie' in the last months.  I am still alive, but
the best part of me definitely died when he stopped to love me.  :'(

And now I need to learn how to make decent home-made Sauerkraut alone,
uff...  Mine stinks.  Literally, stinks.  And I do love it in sandwiches,
uff...  Why does love always make me suffer so much?  snif!  :'(

> you wrote:
> ...you didn't scream of pleasure loudly enough for all the neighbourhood
knows
> that I am a good lover! ...
>
> next time give this kind of lover a favor and do screams on tape to play
whenever he visits you ;-) you can tune the volume up accordingly to your
neighborhood. at the end of the tape: the screams you heard doesn't
necessarily have a correlation to the skill or action of my partner. (it
doesn't even necessarily indicate that someone has finished.)

Hahaha!!!  I was just joking, haha!!  ;D

Two years ago, I had a bizarre couple of neighbours and she was pretty
younger than he, an old rich man.  So, all the times when they were having
any sexual relation, she always was screaming extremely loud  - because he
was almost deaf! -  that my neighbours' bizarre sounds became inspiration
for a crazy project of mine at hackerspace, with the help of some
engineers, haha!!  ;D

I was so terribly stressed with all those f*cking sounds  - f* sounds in
both senses, haha!! -  that, in a long stressing night, when I was
finishing a pretty hard work, and she screamed much louder than my music, I
had a kind of comical revenge...  :B

When she screamed "I am feeling so hot, I am burning, I am in fire!!!", I
screamed "Help, help!!!  Call the firefighters!!!  She is dying!!!".  All
the stressed  neighbourhood laughed a lot for a long time, and, two days
after it, the noisy couple moved to another place and I never used my
project, haha!!  ;)

> rape will be an empty word as terrorist is.

Empty words, stupid labels, lynching people without proofs...  Maybe dying
of sadness soon, in this Sunday, will be better than waiting more for the
future...  I always had hope and believed in a better world, but,
sometimes, I feel so much fear of being wrong and living just for seeing a
more miserable and sad world, my dear...  My heart is already broken.  My
death will be 

Re: [tor-talk] Statement by Jill Bähring regarding Jacob Appelbaum

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 03:09:20AM +, df. wrote:
> 
> Mirimir:
> > | On June 7, 2016, Gizmodo published a story in which “eyewitnesses” -
> > | Emerson Tan, Meredith Paterson, and Andrea Shepard - supposedly
> > | “recount” Jacob Applebaum’s “unwanted sexual advances”. The article
> > | was quickly picked up and developed further, for example by the
> > | dailydot. I am the girl in that story.
> > 
|
> > | I recall that night clearly, and my story is entirely different.
> > | This is how it happened.
> > 
> > http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sop8ps
> > 
> > 
> 
> and now strangely no one has nothing to say.

Those who had something real, and confronting, and not easy to say, said
it (e.g. the beautifully worded Cecilia amongst others).

Defending the presumption of innocence is hard when in the thick of
information and interpersonal 'warfare', easy and often glib when spoken
otherwise.

Would be nice to see a "the very foundation/ origin of this targetting of
Jacob now appears, prima facie, to exonerate him, perhaps the rest is just
slander, apologies for leaping onto the lynch mob bandwagon".

Sadly, humans are known mostly for lynch mobbing, not for such apologies,
and so rarely for standing up for 'right', presumption of innocence etc
when shit is actually happening.
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Statement by Jill Bähring regarding Jacob Appelbaum

[df.]

Mirimir:
> | On June 7, 2016, Gizmodo published a story in which “eyewitnesses” -
> | Emerson Tan, Meredith Paterson, and Andrea Shepard - supposedly
> | “recount” Jacob Applebaum’s “unwanted sexual advances”. The article
> | was quickly picked up and developed further, for example by the
> | dailydot. I am the girl in that story.
> 
|
> | I recall that night clearly, and my story is entirely different.
> | This is how it happened.
> 
> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sop8ps
> 
> 

and now strangely no one has nothing to say.


-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

[tor-talk] Sources: Tor Project Board Knew Of Allegations Against Jacob Appelbaum For Over A Year

[ja . talk]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/sources-tor-project-board-knew-about-allegations-against-jac

Sources: Tor Project Board Knew Of Allegations Against Jacob Appelbaum For Over 
A Year

Jun. 9, 2016

Joseph Bernstein

   Stories of sexual harassment - and worse - came to light at an emotional 
board dinner. Then the person who revealed them quit to avoid being suspended.

Karen Reilly was in tears. At a February 2015 dinner in Valencia, Spain, she 
had just informed the board of The Tor Project of serial sexual and 
professional harassment by Jacob Appelbaum, a powerful and charismatic figure 
in the information security world, who worked for Tor as an advocate, security 
researcher, and developer. And she couldn't hold it together.

She told them about Appelbaum's public and false claims that he had sex with a 
member of the Tor community - something multiple sources have told BuzzFeed 
News Appelbaum has "done to too many people to count." And she told them of 
darker allegations against him that had come up after a group of disgusted Tor 
community members gathered to share stories.

As she cried, according to someone with knowledge of the dinner, Tor's 
vice-president and director Nick Mathewson told her, "I hope you get counseling 
to help you through this."

On May 25, Appelbaum was finally forced out of Tor amid allegations of sexual 
misconduct. In the past week, The Tor Project (the nonprofit that maintains and 
promotes the anonymous internet routing software of the same name) announced 
Appelbaum's departure, and a series of mostly anonymous allegations against him 
have been published online. They include, at their most serious, accusations of 
rape. In a statement, Appelbaum denied any wrongdoing, calling the stories "a 
calculated and targeted attack ... launched to spread vicious and spurious 
allegations."

A separate statement published last week by Tor Project Executive Director 
Shari Steele - who was not with the organization at the time of the Valencia 
Board meeting - acknowledged that "These types of allegations were not entirely 
new to everybody at Tor; they were consistent with rumors some of us had been 
hearing for some time." But accounts of this dinner make it clear that the most 
important people at Tor knew about Appelbaum's inappropriate behavior, and have 
for more than a year.

The board had gathered early one evening in a restaurant in Valencia during the 
February 2015 Tor Developer Meeting. The Project's leading lights were all at 
the dinner: Roger Dingledine, president and director, and together with 
Mathewson an original developer of the onion router; Wendy Seltzer, Policy 
Counsel to the World Wide Web Consortium and Visiting Fellow with Yale Law 
School's Information Society Project; and Andrew Lewman, the Tor Project's 
since-departed executive director. So was Sue Gardner, who had left her job as 
the executive director of the Wikimedia Foundation and was about to come on 
board with Tor as a strategic advisor. Reilly, who was the Tor Project's 
development director, also attended the dinner.

According to sources, Appelbaum's behavior had been the talk of the conference. 
Reilly had separately approached Lewman, Dingledine, Mathewson, and Seltzer in 
Valencia, and told them of the harassment.

At dinner, the conversation turned to Appelbaum after Gardner, not yet a Tor 
employee, broached the subject. According to a source with knowledge of the 
dinner, Gardner said that her friends had been asking her why she was working 
with an organization that employs a rapist. After that, Reilly "rehashed 
everything."

None of the board members responded to calls or email requests for comment. 
Gardner, reached by phone, said that "The Tor project put out a statement and 
that's all that needs to be said about it."

Following the dinner, according to sources, Tor conducted a human resources 
inquiry into the matter. Both Appelbaum and Reilly were given the option of 
taking a ten day suspension or leaving the company with severance. A copy of 
the letter written to Appelbaum by Tor's then-HR manager Tom Leckrone surfaced 
online earlier this week.

"It was a close call as to whether his benefits outweighed his liabilities," 
said a source with knowledge of the suspension.

Appelbaum took the suspension and remained with the company. Reilly, who, 
according to sources, was facing suspension for spreading rumors about the Tor 
Project, left.

-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

[tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum's Performance Improvement Plan

[ja . talk]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2858268-Appelbaum-Wurde-Im-Jahr-2015-Ausgesetzt.html
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2858268/Appelbaum-Wurde-Im-Jahr-2015-Ausgesetzt.pdf

-weitergeleitete Nachricht
Von: "Tom Leckrone" []
Gesendet: Do. 18.03.2015 15:03
An: "Jacob Appelbaum" [ja...@torproject.org]

Dear Jacob,

This letter is to confirm our conversation of yesterday in which you were 
informed that, as a result of your actions on March 3rd at and March 6th at the 
company meeting Valencia, Spain, you have been issued an unpaid suspension for 
a period of ten business days.

I had been working with you regarding issues that have been raised regarding 
your words and actions, which are at times unprofessional and may cast Tor 
Project in a negative light or create issues with other members of the 
community. In particular, concerns have been raised as to past statements that 
caused other community members to feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. As you know, 
a community member advanced a complaint that included two separate instances. 
One of the instances involved a provocative conversation on the afternoon of 
March 6th. The person to whom you were speaking was not offended, but the 
provocative conversation could be overheard by others and created an 
unwelcoming environment.

The other incident raises more serious concerns regarding Tor Project’s 
obligation to ensure a safe and comfortable work environment, especially as 
regards an environment that is unwelcoming or hostile to protected classes of 
community members. In this case, you made statements that implied that new 
community members were recruited in a sexually charged manner. This was made 
during the course of a Tor Project-sanctioned work session which you took part 
in leading. The very statement that the inception of a working relationship was 
in any way influenced by sexual conduct or even innuendo is offensive, 
especially in an environment where Tor Project is actively working to ensure 
that all community members are able to engage and advance themselves based on 
their skills and willingness to contribute rather than other attributes. In 
particular, it is essential that community members not raise or base opinions 
on attributes that relate to gender or are sexually charged. This statement 
would be, by itself, subject to discipline, especially where you were in a 
position of power and were on notice that you needed to avoid any appearance of 
unprofessional words or actions. However, in the repartee that followed, you 
expressly stated that the offensive sexualized recruitment “strategy” had 
“worked” with the complainant. This statement created an inappropriate and 
unwelcome environment for the complainant, and, indeed, any bystander who 
overheard this statement would be likely to perceive that the work environment 
at Tor Project was not welcoming and supportive of merit-based work.

We believe that, given the commitment to Tor Project that you have demonstrated 
and Tor Project's ability and willingness to support your further development, 
there is a strong likelihood that the employment relationship will be able to 
move forward in positive and productive drections. With this end in mind, we 
will work to develop a Performance Improvement Plan at the close of the 
suspension period. Emphasis will be on your ongoing obligation to scrupulously 
serve Tor Project’s best interests and comply with employer expectations in 
performing your job. The Performance Improvement Plan will cover both 
affirmative job responsibilities, as well as your obligation to refrain from 
the types of harmful actions and statements that have been noted above. Further 
misconduct either through the close of the 90-day period or thereafter will be 
subject to further discipline, up to and including termination of your 
employment.

You will be expected to engage with me on performance and conduct issues, and 
Director of Communications Kate Krauss will play an important role in 
re-situating, supporting and coordinating your role going forward.

If you should not wish to continue with Tor Project under the terms of the 
suspension and the Performance Improvement Plan, you may resign and elect a 
severance package that includes three months of salary and benefits coverage at 
current levels. Should you elect to move forward and further performance or 
conduct issues ensue, Tor Project may terminate your employment without any 
severance payments.

You are expected to return to work on March 30, 2015, at which time we will 
develop the aforementioned Performance Improvement Plan.

If you have any questions, please contact me or Executive Director Andrew 
Lewman.

Sincerely,

Tom
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

[tor-talk] Statement by Jill Bähring regarding Jacob Appelbaum

[Mirimir]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

| On June 7, 2016, Gizmodo published a story in which “eyewitnesses” -
| Emerson Tan, Meredith Paterson, and Andrea Shepard - supposedly
| “recount” Jacob Applebaum’s “unwanted sexual advances”. The article
| was quickly picked up and developed further, for example by the
| dailydot. I am the girl in that story.

|
| I recall that night clearly, and my story is entirely different.
| This is how it happened.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sop8ps

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXWgKoAAoJEGINZVEXwuQ+/x0H/1J8kPFVvxm846m7Uyt3MSn/
0SksD2Wu6MqRGziUNBLxcAmQFaRXxxAYcG78dn9LJtDK/sqGl9agdpf9hPSwH2UD
vevmd7P3DGKW9w/ljHF5j2DGSjHm9fyI/Q7JodbPExMWJ10q26am+a+WOoUvXkUn
puYNnRNBGL7EgZVqnA+WQxEllMloiJ0JlwYxGhIbGMZtSNBOdfm8tIQsdl6DeCEg
h0O8vYfm7KCoXVI+CmdQVwgoUUG0ykGxlbBUjxSCJe4+Sq6cmVDklXh34vPXTds1
cKsVvO+jQkdCoVDYp1OahhzFLjs1r/ToRWY7a/9DaCSQWg2LRSB1JEHAd1GQepM=
=jxh7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

[tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum ...

[Mirimir]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I call clown fight.


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXWf7rAAoJEGINZVEXwuQ+BtMH/0KUWcUR0gYoD5AMxsJNgoSe
sMAsyTc/2LwerntT/tk9aRAjM4cRC9+ZHzz4OWadCRkrGpnH2dysL6rCPhZDhAKd
vx7+yWu3Nc3K7vgq8IE17sxfJm89em+Vl7LCTuUcIhglapQelsH+rWfx2L25EVhm
NFepqS0rMe+mRC8CrOVURTfkyPJodubxbmxwqn2hHHRgdJLJSbboqbaf6aXFcq3b
aK7Sd0zLhGTjNhhFnN0dP6+EEnPL4I1fhYk5DqXSzuZLfUdpijs2kPNHnQJNT0lu
A/NfxYeZy51YMW5gx9rXHJKJo8m64szRpFFziOgayiSpdnfONqNltY78AK9RsQU=
=qVH5
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

[tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum allegedly intimidated victims into silence and anonymity

[tor_talk]

Hi Tor Talkers,

we can pretty good reply, too, ja.talk

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sop8ps
Statement by Jill Bähring regarding Jacob Appelbaum
Gizmodo published a story in which “eyewitnesses” - Emerson Tan, Meredith 
Paterson, and Andrea Shepard - supposedly “recount” Jacob Applebaum’s “unwanted 
sexual advances”. The article was quickly picked up and developed further, for 
example by the dailydot. I am the girl in that story. 
[...]
Wonder about their motive to speak on my behalf without my consent.

Unschuldsvermutung! Innocence until an ordinary judge proofs Jacobs guilt. 
there is no prize to win if you inform the internet first hand without being 
involved. if Jacob is found guilty by a judge there is time to reconsider ones 
position until then there is no doubt about it - moreover he has denied it and 
not confessed. 

if you feel the fbi investigation is incomplete go to the sex partners Jacob 
might have had between two cons and ask them if there was sth. to punish by 
law. and when you investigate all that please ask if they were already 
contacted by fbi or other agents and else and do flyers on that hacker cons 
about their names and numbers. so the victims can immediately inform them. if 
someone don't do a complaint of an offense it is the victims fault because you 
don't protect others having same destiny. if you do a  complaint of an 
offense and the police don't believe you it is their fault. you have done what 
must be done.

you wrote:
If you are a victim of sexual assault or want more information on sexual 
assault, contact the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network at 1-800-656-HOPE 
(4673). If you are a victim of domestic abuse or want more information on 
domestic violence and resources for victims, contact the National Domestic 
Violence Hotline online or at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233). 

that is the same if you give your data to a cloud. if you don't trust any other 
police station give these names a call and go to a doctor to secure evidence in 
case of sth sexual or intoxic crime. Most doctors in most countries must keep 
silence about most of their diagnoses. in Germany you even can tell the doctor 
to give you the complete file. it is up to you to get it started. once the 
questioning by police is over you will feel relieved.


Off Topic till end of mail
@Cecilia Tanaka 
Sorry if my posts weren't excellent and you feel to post your story and 
emotions. you are stronger than you think and your words are beautiful.
there will be no contract to feel safe from operations like this. 

you wrote:
...you didn't scream of pleasure loudly enough for all the neighbourhood knows
that I am a good lover! ...

next time give this kind of lover a favor and do screams on tape to play 
whenever he visits you ;-) you can tune the volume up accordingly to your 
neighborhood. at the end of the tape: the screams you heard doesn't necessarily 
have a correlation to the skill or action of my partner. (it doesn't even 
necessarily indicate that someone has finished.)

rape will be an empty word as terrorist is.
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

I don't care at all what you think about "my stuff" and your completely
wrong appreciation/description of it, I was not referring to this only

Apparently you are trying to revive some old concepts that just can't
work with bittorrent

"Which is why bittorrent is moving into the overlays", please clarify
what you mean, why popcorn time shows up here, why you posted this

Le 09/06/2016 à 18:21, grarpamp a écrit :
> On 6/9/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
>> Missing something here or why do you post those old links without
>> mentioning newer projects?
> Some of your stuff depends on clearnet peers / services, I see no
> need for that in the new old world of anonymous overlay networks.
> Some of your stuff is commercial, for clearnet no less, spammed
> out in every message you send. I see no need for that either.
>
> As in the subject "entirely within".
> As in the body "just a teaser".

-- 
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

[tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum allegedly intimidated victims into silence and anonymity

[ja . talk]

https://www.dailydot.com/politics/jacob-appelbaum-tor-project-suspension-sexual-misconduct-victims/

Jacob Appelbaum allegedly intimidated victims into silence and anonymity

Dell Cameron

June 7, 2016

This story contains graphic details of alleged sexual assault.

In the wake of programmer Jacob Appelbaum’s abrupt departure from the Tor 
Project, rumors and accusations about both sexual misconduct and bullying have 
surfaced that extend back years.

Appelbaum was suspended without pay for two weeks from the Tor Project in March 
2015 as a result of an internal complaint filed against him due to harassing 
behavior toward other employees, according to sources within the Tor Project.

Now, four witnesses—including a current senior Tor employee—are stepping 
forward into the public eye, adding valuable insight into how Appelbaum 
allegedly intimidated those around him to keep accusations of sexual misconduct 
secret and pressure those who are speaking out to remain anonymous.

Appelbaum, who has worked closely with the likes of WikiLeaks founder Julian 
Assange and former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, became a prominent face of 
Tor in the last decade as he worked as a public advocate and occasional hacker 
for the Tor Project. Tor is a powerful U.S. government-funded anonymity 
software that protects the identity and location of its users. It’s used by a 
wide range of people including human rights activists, government employees, 
criminals, journalists, and dissidents in countries that impose online 
censorship and crack down on internet activity.

Glowing profiles by publications like Rolling Stone and Vice cemented his 
position as a 21st century political geek rock star. The cultural heights to 
which he rose make his fall all the more jarring for the community—and 
exacerbate the pressure to remain silent on those who claim to be his victims.

Late last week, a website was launched in which anonymous victims of 
Appelbaum’s alleged sexual misconduct joined together to post their stories in 
an effort to publicize them without a much-feared wave of personalized and 
professional backlash.

The stories are graphic and describe the ways Appelbaum allegedly assaulted 
people in public and in private. “Forest” writes that she woke up one night 
while platonically sharing a bed with Appelbaum to find her pants unzipped, his 
hands in her underwear and touching her vagina. "Sam" recounts an incident when 
Appelbaum allegedly pulled them into a bathtub with him after they repeatedly 
told him not to. “River” claims Appelbaum raped her in a room in front a group 
of his friends.

Three current Tor employees—two of whom agreed to be named on the record—have 
confirmed that they personally know the authors of the alleged victim 
statements on the site, JacobAppelbaum.net. Although they continue to maintain 
anonymity for the authors of the stories, these Tor employees are now publicly 
vouching for the site’s authenticity, which Appelbaum has called into question.

Andrea Shepard, a senior Tor developer, confirmed to the Daily Dot that she was 
in touch with at least one of the victims on the website several months ago. 
Alison Macrina, a Tor employee and advocate as well as the founder and director 
of the Library Freedom Project, also vouched for the authenticity of the 
anonymous victims’ statements.

“It’s related to something that started happening in earnest about three or 
four months ago,” Macrina said. “Which is simply that people stopped being 
afraid to talk to each other about Jake. That’s how I heard from some victims.”

Macrina, who also works for the Tor Project and travels the country educating 
librarians about privacy issues, said the site was established so that people 
would have a “safe way” to share their stories. “Those of us who can afford the 
exposure of backing them up publicly know their real identities and can vouch 
for them,” she said.

Appelbaum broke his silence on Monday, deriding the accounts of his former 
colleagues as “vague rumors.” It was an “attack,” he said, on his reputation, 
led by character-assassins spreading “vicious and spurious” allegations against 
him.

“I want to be clear,” Appelbaum wrote, “the accusations of criminal sexual 
misconduct against me are entirely false.”

Appelbaum’s representative, Claudia Tomassini, originally said his legal team 
was “working on an injunction against these monstrous and factually incorrect 
accusations.” A few hours later, she walked back that statement. The legal team 
is now “weighing all options,” Tomassini told the Daily Dot, “including such 
legal actions as may be appropriate.”

Four prominent members of the technology and security community talked to the 
Daily Dot about one incident that they say took place late last year.

“It was in December of last year,” technologist and developer Meredith L. 
Patterson said. “It was the day we arrived at CCC.”

CCC, or Chaos Communication Congress, is an annual conference 

Re: [tor-talk] Browserprint fingerprinting website

[me]

I am still unique. :-)

TBB version | 3 | 134.33 | 6.0.1

The TBB version was updated automatically.


On 09.06.16 19:08, c...@browserprint.info wrote:

I have left the tests in, but excluded them from the fingerprint uniqueness 
calculation.
I've also grayed them out and made it clear that the tests have problems.


I zoom and change window size often, and they are reset when the browser
starts. I think they rather prevent tracking me. But your site tells
that my fingerprint is unique because of them. Maybe, exclude those
parameters?


On 07.06.16 07:04, cube wrote:

Yes, the TBB and IceCat handle screen size calculations in a way
different to most browsers.
This results in odd screen sizes and screen sizes that can be affected
by zooming.
I wasn't aware that the character sizes test was also affected by
zooming (this seems to be the case on even regular browsers), thanks for
pointing that out.
I'm also concerned that you got "nullxnull" for your CSS screen size
test, I guess that means the test is bugged.

On 07/06/16 07:38, m...@beroal.in.ua wrote:

Hi. I pushed the "fingerprint me" button.

Browser Characteristic | Number of occurrences | one in x browsers
have this value | value
Screen Size and Colour Depth | 1 | 217 | 583x467x24

It seems that this parameter depends on the zoom, as well as
"Character Sizes".

On 06.06.16 14:47, c...@browserprint.info wrote:

Hello, I'm the creator of a new fingerprinting website,
https://browserprint.info
Think Panopticlick but with a lot more tests.
Many of the tests are even designed specifically to catch the Tor
browser bundle out, for instance the Math/Tan function returns a
different value based on what your underlying operating system is, so
it's easy to detect when a browser is lying in their user-agent string.
I would greatly appreciate if you visit the site and fingerprint
yourselves since it will help me refine the techniques and improve
the site.
I'm adding more tests every week and if you have any ideas or
suggestions I'd love to hear them.

--
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk





--
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Sean Lynch]

On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 9:52 PM grarpamp  wrote:
[...]

> # Putting the "Tor" back in Torrent
> https://gist.github.com/obvio171/addb26214a8c159f84a8
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8022341


Code, or it didn't happen. We have ideas up the wazoo. What we lack are
practical, usable implementations. I would really love to see this, but
there are any number of people who have already figured this out on their
own and don't need some non-programmer (I'm assuming, since this appears to
be just an idea and not even a design doc being put out for review) telling
them what they need to do.
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/9/16, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:
> The problem is getting the software in the first place.
> Popcorn Time #1 got bullied off the web, then sprouted
> two forks, neither of which could keep a stable url.
> So you better not have a single hitch in your web server. Otherwise that
> will be the first thing to go, and you'll end
> up wasting the rest of your development time playing
> cat-and-mouse across dns, onion addys, etc.

You missing greater part of the subject and context...
Competent services and users can't be bullied off of
anonymous overlay networks by anyone except perhaps
GPA's that have nothing better to do. Clearnet is a joke
compared to that general caveat. Which is why bittorrent
is moving into the overlays... yes, they're tired of wasting
their time with bullies and they have better things to do,
including building and using stable, resistant, systems.
That's just ops, is not giving up, but continuing to better
advancing any of their philosophical ideas on piratepartiet,
privacy, etc.
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/9/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
> Missing something here or why do you post those old links without
> mentioning newer projects?

Some of your stuff depends on clearnet peers / services, I see no
need for that in the new old world of anonymous overlay networks.
Some of your stuff is commercial, for clearnet no less, spammed
out in every message you send. I see no need for that either.

As in the subject "entirely within".
As in the body "just a teaser".
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Browserprint fingerprinting website

[cube]

I have left the tests in, but excluded them from the fingerprint uniqueness 
calculation.
I've also grayed them out and made it clear that the tests have problems.

> I zoom and change window size often, and they are reset when the browser 
> starts. I think they rather prevent tracking me. But your site tells 
> that my fingerprint is unique because of them. Maybe, exclude those 
> parameters?
> 
> 
> On 07.06.16 07:04, cube wrote:
> > Yes, the TBB and IceCat handle screen size calculations in a way
> > different to most browsers.
> > This results in odd screen sizes and screen sizes that can be affected
> > by zooming.
> > I wasn't aware that the character sizes test was also affected by
> > zooming (this seems to be the case on even regular browsers), thanks for
> > pointing that out.
> > I'm also concerned that you got "nullxnull" for your CSS screen size
> > test, I guess that means the test is bugged.
> >
> > On 07/06/16 07:38, m...@beroal.in.ua wrote:
> >> Hi. I pushed the "fingerprint me" button.
> >>
> >> Browser Characteristic | Number of occurrences | one in x browsers
> >> have this value | value
> >> Screen Size and Colour Depth | 1 | 217 | 583x467x24
> >>
> >> It seems that this parameter depends on the zoom, as well as
> >> "Character Sizes".
> >>
> >> On 06.06.16 14:47, c...@browserprint.info wrote:
> >>> Hello, I'm the creator of a new fingerprinting website,
> >>> https://browserprint.info
> >>> Think Panopticlick but with a lot more tests.
> >>> Many of the tests are even designed specifically to catch the Tor
> >>> browser bundle out, for instance the Math/Tan function returns a
> >>> different value based on what your underlying operating system is, so
> >>> it's easy to detect when a browser is lying in their user-agent string.
> >>> I would greatly appreciate if you visit the site and fingerprint
> >>> yourselves since it will help me refine the techniques and improve
> >>> the site.
> >>> I'm adding more tests every week and if you have any ideas or
> >>> suggestions I'd love to hear them.
> 
> -- 
> tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
> 
> 
> 
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum Has Allegedly Engaged in Sexual Misconduct for Over a Decade

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Jun 9, 2016 12:50 PM, "Cecilia Tanaka"  wrote:

>> Public lynching is not a good hobby at all.  Did I try sports?  Do you
like electronics?  :)

Whoops!  My mistake, sorry!  I was trying to say "Did you try sports?",
pardon.  :P

I had no sleep and there are lots of mistakes, uff...  :(

Read this quote, please.  It is pretty beautiful and it was sent for me few
minutes ago.

“Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative
altruism or the darkness of destructive selfishness. This is the judgment.
Life’s most persistent and urgent question is, What are you doing for
others? “  - Martin Luther King Jr

Try to find some light, my dear.  "Be excellent to each other", do you
remember?  ;)

Take care!  :*

Cecilia
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Jacob Appelbaum Has Allegedly Engaged in Sexual Misconduct for Over a Decade

[Cecilia Tanaka]

[OT-OT-OT]  [projects]  [hackthon]

Dear ja.talk,

I was searching for some fun projects for making a dear maker friend smile
and I've found some projects that can be useful for your fun and also for
your public moral harassments!  You can create your own crime map, yay!  :D

http://www.stupidhackathon.com

Hey, did I mention before that here, in my country, this thing you are
doing with Jake is considered a crime too?  It is always lovely to learn
more about other countries, isn't it?   :D

Well, I think you need to study a bit and trying new things if you want to
be happy.  Public lynching is not a good hobby at all.  Did I try sports?
Do you like electronics?  :)

My friend loves LEDs and I am searching for some cool and fun electronics
projects.  If you find any one, just tell me, please.  I love LEDs too.  A
little blink is able to warm hearts.  Try it, please.  :)

If you prefer, I am searching for some good Italian recipes of bread too.
My friend and I love Italian breads in general.  If you taste them, your
mood will be better.  Serotonin saves lives and bread is a proof that God
probably exists!  :)))

Take care and have a lovely day!  Kisses, happiness and hot tea!  :*

Cecilia, taking hot tea...
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] CULT OF THE DEAD COW Statement on Jacob Appelbaum / ioerror

[carlo von lynX]

Everyone is free to refute sociology or science in general
and declare it an opinion.

I just came here to suggest a way to handle the situation
that nobody else had the idea of suggesting, based on some
research that got published on this thing called Internet.

I got some good feedback (in private) and some mixed
feedback of mixed competence.

No problem. I am done.

-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] CULT OF THE DEAD COW Statement on Jacob Appelbaum / ioerror

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 12:23:52PM +0200, carlo von lynX wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 11:16:24AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > I agree with you. Some say "naming and shaming" is the way - I say naming
> > bad behaviour, publicly, is not shaming.
> > 
> > Naming simply says "Hang on, that's threatening, are you serious or
> > letting your words preceed you?" or "That's agressive and likely hurtful
> > communication, do you care to rephrase or retract?"
> 
> Er, that's not exactly what I meant. Just because you "define" it to not
> be shaming doesn't mean you can't keep the person you are "naming" from
> feeling shamed and therefore, like most adults, go into defense and fire
> back mode rather than accepting criticism.
> 
> I was suggesting to interact in private, work out the contents of the
> posting together. Certainly complicated by mail, but it is kind of feasible
> with recent forum softwares such as Discourse.

This is a valid approach. Where you have an individual receptive to your
position that you put privately, it may be "successful". If not, others
may be able to assist. If not, involve the whole community. If there's
unanimity against your view, find another community.

These are valid pathways of course.


> > For those who care, I think this discussion you are spearheading is very
> > good.
> 
> Thanks a lot. We've been discussing this in the Italian pirate community

Wow, I did not realise that pirates were not limited to South Cape and
Somalians. Or perhaps you refer to copyright infringement community?

Or PiratParty community?


> > > That is natural, and it is sociologically a losing game.
> > 
> > I completely disagree. It's only a losing game when one of the individuals
> > involved is repressed. When all parties are not in the slightest repressed
> > by the vehemence, vitriol or other intesity of the 'conversation', then
> > the conversation is great entertainment.
> 
> Oh you mean if the debate is intense in the contents but respectful
> of the contendants? Yes ok, then ideally it becomes a winning game.  :)

Winning game yes.

Respect? Sort of - even disrespect/ vitriol can be brushed off as "oh
that's just his way of communicating" or "wow, intense, I feel sorry for
you if you really feel that way" or...


> > Neither you, SJWs, nor anyone, will ever convince me otherwise. There are
> > actually people in this world who will take verbal blows from any and all,
> > in order to learn how to joust, in order to cut to the chase, in order to
> > (try to) identify bullshit as quickly as humanly possible.
> > 
> > It's a very useful skill to be able to go hammer and tong for a few
> > rounds, then turn around in the few minutes and discuss technical details
> > of some computer program - with the same person. That's liberating. That's
> > a sign of being able to handle your emotions.
> 
> Oh.. hm.. well it causes damage by looking like a serious fight to third
> parties.

If you're ever unsure as an onlooker, I suggest actually asking the
jousters.

They may even find your interjection useful you know :)


> Would you be able to take it private or does it need an audience
> to be enjoyable?

Let's say you, and someone you are on generally agreeably vehement and
vitriolic communication terms, have a verbal jihad against one another.

Right. So, if you do that privately, I don't get to watch and enjoy it do
I? That's what I'm sayin...


> Aren't you a bit egoistic if you're more focused on your
> joy than on the general progress of the project?

Probably. I hope my subtlety precedes me - you know, like the 'Dalai Lama
takes humility lessons from me' kind of subtlety...


> And how can you be sure 
> the other side indeed never gets hurt by your words? In digital words, 
> there's no recognizable difference, or is there?

Case by case, but I've been talking mostly about me as an onlooker. Though
I have been one to leap in (often to my superficial detriment by the way).


> Wouldn't it be better in most cases if a vibes watcher kept you guys
> from getting personal and made you stick to a fact-oriented debate?
> Doesn't mean you can't hammer out strong statements - just cut out the
> hurting.

F*iretr*uck no! And no, it's not about hurting.

Think boxing - verbal jousting is less painful than physical boxing. I
take it you would not be one to choose to train and be a physical boxer?

Now, put yourself in the shoes of the boxers, who go to a match, like a
Fight Club match, and you decide to go there and teach them all how
fighting is so yesterday, and can we be robustly firm with a bit of arm
wrestling since blood and bruises really are too personal and
fact-oriented ok so just all you stop now ok and stick to arm wrestling
cause you know that's the type of jousting which is ok.

Comprende?


> > Sure, some people, perhaps most, are not there yet. And warm cosy
> > comfortable 'communities' are just what the doctor ordered for those who
> > are unwilling to stretch such personal 

Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

Le 09/06/2016 à 06:52, grarpamp a écrit :
> # Putting the "Tor" back in Torrent
> https://gist.github.com/obvio171/addb26214a8c159f84a8
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8022341

Missing something here or why do you post those old links without
mentioning newer projects?

-- 
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

[tor-talk] cr.yp.to blog: The death of due process

[carlo von lynX]

https://blog.cr.yp.to/20160607-dueprocess.html

Suppose someone is accused of rape, or some other horrifying crime. If the 
accusation is true then the perpetrator should go to jail. If the accusation is 
false then the source of this false accusation should pay for this slander. 
Clearly someone has broken the law.

A lynch mob forms to punish the alleged rapist by whatever means possible. A 
second lynch mob forms to punish the accuser, the alleged slanderer, again by 
whatever means possible. These mobs are full of angry people who want to be 
judges and juries and executioners. The members of the first lynch mob dismiss 
the possibility that the accusation is false. The members of the second lynch 
mob dismiss the possibility that the accusation is true.

Evidently many of these people are wrong: accidentally or maliciously deceived. 
At the same time all of these people are convinced that they know who deserves 
punishment.

Is it really so hard to recognize both of these directions of error? If I 
prejudge and punish alleged culprits who have not had their day in court, then 
I will inevitably punish some innocent people: the unfortunate reality is that 
many accusations of crimes are false. If I prejudge and punish accusers who 
have not had their day in court, then I will inevitably punish some innocent 
people: the unfortunate reality is that many accusations of crimes are true.

When I say "day in court", what I really mean is due process. Due process is a 
set of ethical principles that civilization has painstakingly developed over 
several centuries, recognizing that punishment is corrupted by many sources of 
error on both sides: communication is poor; memories are faulty; sometimes 
people don't tell the whole truth; sometimes people tell something other than 
the truth. I won't try to summarize all of the principles of due process, but 
here are some of the most fundamental, well-established principles:

The accused receives adequate notice of the allegations.
The accused has an adequate opportunity to respond.
Judgments are made by an unbiased tribunal.

These principles are followed by criminal courts (where, as an extra 
protection, defendants are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty); 
by civil courts (where the winner is whichever side has the strongest overall 
evidence); by arbitrators; etc.

I'm not saying that judges never make mistakes. I'm saying that the lynch mobs 
rushing to judgment are much more likely to make mistakes, exactly because of 
the absence of due process.

Have you ever heard one side of a story, thought you understood what was going 
on, and then, after hearing the other side of the story, realized that you were 
wrong? Have you ever read news about liars being convincingly exposed in court 
as their lawyers watched in despair, shoulders slumped? You're seeing examples 
of the power of due process to correct errors. Again, I'm not saying that these 
systems are perfect; I'm saying that the alternatives are much worse.

Is any of this new? Is any of it hard to understand? I don't think so. Why, 
then, do these lynch mobs form like clockwork?

Imagine the least trustworthy person you can think of. Maybe it's a modern-day 
J. Edgar Hoover, or maybe it's some money-grubbing corporate type, or maybe 
it's one of the candidates for the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Imagine 
that this person, for whatever reason, wants to destroy someone's life. Look at 
how attractive these lynch mobs are as weapons! The first lynch mob is a weapon 
to destroy the life of the accused. The second lynch mob is a weapon to destroy 
the life of the accuser. These weapons can be used by anyone with a moderate 
level of marketing skill, and cost almost nothing in the Internet age.

Is it clear that this is never happening: that these weapons are never being 
used maliciously against innocent victims? I don't find it at all clear.[1] 
Sure, the courts can be used as weapons too, but at least the courts have some 
protections against abuse.

Perhaps there's never any malice. The error rate of the lynch mobs is 
nevertheless terribly high: so high that the existence of these mobs cannot, 
must not, be tolerated by society.

Now suppose an accuser or accused claims to be the victim of a crime or slander 
respectively—but, instead of calling for a prosecution or a civil case or at 
least an arbitration, calls for a lynch mob. The costs are low, the expected 
damage is high, and the pesky concept of due process is neatly dodged. Is this 
behavior any less antisocial than the behavior of the angry people who heed the 
call?

Perhaps you feel, intellectually, that you understand all this, and that you 
detest the lynch mobs on both sides. But then a new event occurs and suddenly 
you're faced with angry people trying to browbeat you into joining their lynch 
mob, screaming either "HOW CAN YOU CONDONE THIS CRIME!" or "HOW CAN YOU CONDONE 
THIS SLANDER!" depending on which 

Re: [tor-talk] CULT OF THE DEAD COW Statement on Jacob Appelbaum / ioerror

[carlo von lynX]

> On Wed, Jun 08, 2016 at 05:32:31PM +0200, carlo von lynX wrote:
> > That is a possible way a vibes watcher could go about it, but I would
> > rather intercept any aggressive postings to appear in the original form,
> > but rather send them back to the writer asking to clear up some aspects
> > that may be misunderstandable or in plain disregard of the code of conduct.
> > In the scenario I described earlier either I should have received a mail,
> > explaining how my mail had a potential of being misunderstood and needed
> > rephrasing, or the reply that attacked me as a reasonable human being 
> > shouldn't have seen the light.

On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 11:16:24AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> I agree with you. Some say "naming and shaming" is the way - I say naming
> bad behaviour, publicly, is not shaming.
> 
> Naming simply says "Hang on, that's threatening, are you serious or
> letting your words preceed you?" or "That's agressive and likely hurtful
> communication, do you care to rephrase or retract?"

Er, that's not exactly what I meant. Just because you "define" it to not
be shaming doesn't mean you can't keep the person you are "naming" from
feeling shamed and therefore, like most adults, go into defense and fire
back mode rather than accepting criticism.

I was suggesting to interact in private, work out the contents of the
posting together. Certainly complicated by mail, but it is kind of feasible
with recent forum softwares such as Discourse.

The person will probably still think you're an authoritarian nuisance,
but if noone in public took notice they are more likely to deal with it
and forget the incident. And what's best: they will try to avoid having
such an exchange with the moderator again - which means they will improve
their behaviors.

So they become better people not because they want to. Hardly anyone wants
to spend time fixing their bad habits. But if it means not having to
interact with the moderation authority, that will be an actual motivator.

So ideally the moderator won't have all that much work to keep the
community in positive moods all the time. This framing adds the missing
bit of basic social requirements that exist in real-life, and so a
community that runs under this rule should actually feel more "normal".

Yes, just not in public IMHO. Actually would be useful to have a study
to confirm this, but I guess it 

> > Unfortunately the work of vibes watching moderators is frequently confused
> > with censorship, but that goes back to the fallacious understanding of
> > freedom of expression that I mentioned in previous postings and which is
> > also addressed in convivenza.
> 
> For those who care, I think this discussion you are spearheading is very
> good.

Thanks a lot. We've been discussing this in the Italian pirate community
for several years now. Last week we passed 'convivenza' into the party
regulations, so should anyone care about us again we have a better chance
of being able to deal with popularity. I am convinced the main issue that
made the German pirates implode was the absence of punishment for destructive
and harrassing behaviors.

> In any particular "community", if there's not at least one other person
> who 'cares', my default suggestion is move on, find another group.

Well, they also need to have the authority to exercise "care". And the
nerve to be a pre-emptive vibes-watching nuisance, ready to deal with
potential insults (at least they are in private, and you know they are
against your function, not your person).

> > That is natural, and it is sociologically a losing game.
> 
> I completely disagree. It's only a losing game when one of the individuals
> involved is repressed. When all parties are not in the slightest repressed
> by the vehemence, vitriol or other intesity of the 'conversation', then
> the conversation is great entertainment.

Oh you mean if the debate is intense in the contents but respectful
of the contendants? Yes ok, then ideally it becomes a winning game.  :)

> Neither you, SJWs, nor anyone, will ever convince me otherwise. There are
> actually people in this world who will take verbal blows from any and all,
> in order to learn how to joust, in order to cut to the chase, in order to
> (try to) identify bullshit as quickly as humanly possible.
> 
> It's a very useful skill to be able to go hammer and tong for a few
> rounds, then turn around in the few minutes and discuss technical details
> of some computer program - with the same person. That's liberating. That's
> a sign of being able to handle your emotions.

Oh.. hm.. well it causes damage by looking like a serious fight to third
parties. Would you be able to take it private or does it need an audience
to be enjoyable? Aren't you a bit egoistic if you're more focused on your
joy than on the general progress of the project? And how can you be sure 
the other side indeed never gets hurt by your words? In digital words, 
there's no recognizable difference, or is there?

Re: [tor-talk] Sorry Jake I know you are innocent

[Zenaan Harkness]

Notwithstanding the veracity of the sender of the email you replied to,
your english is more than good enough, and thank you for being succinct,
on topic of the thread and relevant.


On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 10:29:49AM +0200, tom wrote:
> Hello ja.talk,
> 
> if you are a man, then block yourself. The main distinction between men an 
> animals is that animals can't choose, they have to suffer their being as they 
> are. Men have always the choice. and are able to change themselfes.
> 
> So don't spread you stupid "I am an asshole". Think about what you want to 
> be: a human or an animal. It's your choice.
> 
> Excuse my bad english
> 
> 
> 
> Am Thursday 09 June 2016 02:10:45 schrieb ja.talk:
> > 
> > Like I said: I am a asshole.
> > 
> > Just making a bunch of shit up and putting it here.
> > 
> > I do not like Jake and that is it.
> > 
> > List admin can you block me please?  I am an out of control loser with a
> > lot of time on my hands.
> > 
> > 
> > Kevin:
> > > Why would you even joke about this situation?
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/8/2016 7:13 PM, ja.t...@eugeni.torproject.org wrote:
> > >> Hey guys I am just making all this stuff up, sorry for being such a
> > >> stuipd asshole!
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> -- 
> tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

-- 
Free Australia: www.UPMART.org
Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted.
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Sorry Jake I know you are innocent

[tom]

Hello ja.talk,

if you are a man, then block yourself. The main distinction between men an 
animals is that animals can't choose, they have to suffer their being as they 
are. Men have always the choice. and are able to change themselfes.

So don't spread you stupid "I am an asshole". Think about what you want to be: 
a human or an animal. It's your choice.

Excuse my bad english



Am Thursday 09 June 2016 02:10:45 schrieb ja.talk:
> 
> Like I said: I am a asshole.
> 
> Just making a bunch of shit up and putting it here.
> 
> I do not like Jake and that is it.
> 
> List admin can you block me please?  I am an out of control loser with a
> lot of time on my hands.
> 
> 
> Kevin:
> > Why would you even joke about this situation?
> >
> >
> > On 6/8/2016 7:13 PM, ja.t...@eugeni.torproject.org wrote:
> >> Hey guys I am just making all this stuff up, sorry for being such a
> >> stuipd asshole!
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 12:52:35AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> First come the clearnet indexes...
> 
> # kickass torrents
...

Before I blinmked I read that as "first they came for the clearnet
torrents" as a riff on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Might be topical at this moment:

First they came for the Bulletin Boards,
and I did not speak out, for I had no need of gratis files.

Then they came for the Usenet,
and I did not speak out, for I had no need of wildly differing opinions.

Then they came for the time shifters and file sharers,
and I did not speak out, for I had no need of others files.

Then they came for the IRC,
and it still survives so still I have no need to speak out.

Then they came for the world wide web,
and I certainly did not speak out, for I had no need of porn.

Then they came for the napster, gnutella, freenet and edonkey,
and still I did not speak out, for I had no need of copyright violating
culture sharers.

Then they came for the clearnet torrents,
and I did not speak out, for I'm busy paying my mortgage and watching footy.

Then they came for the darknet,
and I did not speak out, for I had no need of whistleblowing.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak up for me.



With credits to the history of filesharing,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_sharing_timeline


-- 
Free Australia: www.UPMART.org
Please respect the confidentiality of this email as sensibly warranted.
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Is it going to extradite Jacob to usa?

[Andreas Krey]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 02:40:04 +, tor_t...@arcor.de wrote:
...
> Gefahr des Todes = death danger = "intoxicated" without being a med => 
> triggers Dangerous Drugs Act, too, btw

I seem to have missed that part where 'intoxicated' didn't equal self-ingested 
alcohol.

> ... there could be an extradition/a deportation to the usa

I totally fail to see this. If the US wanted an extradition what would
keep german authorities from arresting him directly because of the
extradition request?

Andreas

-- 
"Totally trivial. Famous last words."
From: Linus Torvalds 
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:29:21 -0800
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk

Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Jonathan Wilkes]

> # Putting the "Tor" back in Torrent
https://gist.github.com/obvio171/addb26214a8c159f84a8
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8022341


The problem is getting the software in the first place.  
Popcorn Time #1 got bullied off the web, then sprouted 
two forks, neither of which could keep a stable url.
So you better not have a single hitch in your web server. Otherwise that will 
be the first thing to go, and you'll end 
up wasting the rest of your development time playing 
cat-and-mouse across dns, onion addys, etc.

-Jonathan
  
-- 
tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk