Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Seth David Schoen]

Jason Long writes:

> Are you kidding? Iranian relays are good in this scenario? Why?

Because they might be less likely to cooperate with ISPs in other
countries to track Tor traffic.

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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Jason Long]

Are you kidding? Iranian relays are good in this scenario? Why?

On Wed, 11/23/16, Jonathan Marquardt <m...@parckwart.de> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.
 To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
 Date: Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 7:16 AM
 
 Yes, luckily that's
 not happening yet. At least not on a large scale.
 
 In order for that technique to
 really work out, all ISPs in all countries your 
 Tor connection goes through would need to work
 together. The more 
 geographically and
 politically diverse the countries your Tor circuit goes 
 through get, the harder the tracking gets.
 Depending on how much of an 
 orwellian world
 you want to imagine, it might be that some day all countries
 
 in Europe collaborate, for example. So
 it's good to have some Tor 
 relays 
 outside of that continent. In fact, the iranian relays you
 recently 
 were worried about, Jason, might
 be very helpful in such a scenario.
 
 On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 12:23:15PM +, Jason
 Long wrote:
 > Oh, You mean is that all
 ISPs contribute to each other?
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:41 PM,
 juanjo <jua...@avanix.es>
 wrote:
 > No, your ISP can't see your
 Tor exit IP.
 > 
 > Of
 course, if all ISP form all the world started to log all
 connections 
 > they could follow the path
 and find your original IP. This is something 
 > UK is starting to do now...  and many
 goverments want.
 > 
 >
 
 > El 22/11/2016 a las 13:02, Jason Long
 escribió:
 > > Thus, ISP can't see
 my Tor IP?
 > >
 >
 >
 > >
 > > On
 Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:27 PM, juanjo <jua...@avanix.es>
 wrote:
 > > ISP can't see that the
 user "changed" his IP adress on Tor. What you
 > > said could work on single-hop proxies
 or VPN, but not on Tor, remember
 > >
 on Tor you have not one but three hops. ISP can only see you
 are
 > > connecting to the first hop,
 not the remaining two (middle and exit,
 >
 > exit is the IP that the website will see).
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > El
 22/11/2016 a las 12:48, Jason Long escribió:
 > >> Hello.
 >
 >> As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments
 can see that users using tor but can't see what they are
 doing. My questions is that if an ISP see that an IP
 address, For example, 100.100.100.1 connected to the Tor
 network and user IP address changed to 200.200.200.1 then if
 the user visit a website with Tor then if the websites
 owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give
 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?
 >
 >>
 > >> Thank you.
 > 
 > 
 > -- 
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 list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
 > To unsubscribe or change other settings go
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 > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Jason Long]

Are you kidding? Iranian relays are good in this scenario? Why?

On Wed, 11/23/16, Jonathan Marquardt <m...@parckwart.de> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.
 To: tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
 Date: Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 7:16 AM
 
 Yes, luckily that's
 not happening yet. At least not on a large scale.
 
 In order for that technique to
 really work out, all ISPs in all countries your 
 Tor connection goes through would need to work
 together. The more 
 geographically and
 politically diverse the countries your Tor circuit goes 
 through get, the harder the tracking gets.
 Depending on how much of an 
 orwellian world
 you want to imagine, it might be that some day all countries
 
 in Europe collaborate, for example. So
 it's good to have some Tor 
 relays 
 outside of that continent. In fact, the iranian relays you
 recently 
 were worried about, Jason, might
 be very helpful in such a scenario.
 
 On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 12:23:15PM +, Jason
 Long wrote:
 > Oh, You mean is that all
 ISPs contribute to each other?
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:41 PM,
 juanjo <jua...@avanix.es>
 wrote:
 > No, your ISP can't see your
 Tor exit IP.
 > 
 > Of
 course, if all ISP form all the world started to log all
 connections 
 > they could follow the path
 and find your original IP. This is something 
 > UK is starting to do now...  and many
 goverments want.
 > 
 >
 
 > El 22/11/2016 a las 13:02, Jason Long
 escribió:
 > > Thus, ISP can't see
 my Tor IP?
 > >
 >
 >
 > >
 > > On
 Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:27 PM, juanjo <jua...@avanix.es>
 wrote:
 > > ISP can't see that the
 user "changed" his IP adress on Tor. What you
 > > said could work on single-hop proxies
 or VPN, but not on Tor, remember
 > >
 on Tor you have not one but three hops. ISP can only see you
 are
 > > connecting to the first hop,
 not the remaining two (middle and exit,
 >
 > exit is the IP that the website will see).
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > El
 22/11/2016 a las 12:48, Jason Long escribió:
 > >> Hello.
 >
 >> As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments
 can see that users using tor but can't see what they are
 doing. My questions is that if an ISP see that an IP
 address, For example, 100.100.100.1 connected to the Tor
 network and user IP address changed to 200.200.200.1 then if
 the user visit a website with Tor then if the websites
 owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give
 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?
 >
 >>
 > >> Thank you.
 > 
 > 
 > -- 
 > tor-talk mailing
 list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
 > To unsubscribe or change other settings go
 to
 > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
 > -- 
 > tor-talk mailing
 list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
 > To unsubscribe or change other settings go
 to
 > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
 --
 
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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Jonathan Marquardt]

Yes, luckily that's not happening yet. At least not on a large scale.

In order for that technique to really work out, all ISPs in all countries your 
Tor connection goes through would need to work together. The more 
geographically and politically diverse the countries your Tor circuit goes 
through get, the harder the tracking gets. Depending on how much of an 
orwellian world you want to imagine, it might be that some day all countries 
in Europe collaborate, for example. So it's good to have some Tor 
relays  outside of that continent. In fact, the iranian relays you recently 
were worried about, Jason, might be very helpful in such a scenario.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 12:23:15PM +, Jason Long wrote:
> Oh, You mean is that all ISPs contribute to each other?
> 
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:41 PM, juanjo  wrote:
> No, your ISP can't see your Tor exit IP.
> 
> Of course, if all ISP form all the world started to log all connections 
> they could follow the path and find your original IP. This is something 
> UK is starting to do now...  and many goverments want.
> 
> 
> El 22/11/2016 a las 13:02, Jason Long escribió:
> > Thus, ISP can't see my Tor IP?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:27 PM, juanjo  wrote:
> > ISP can't see that the user "changed" his IP adress on Tor. What you
> > said could work on single-hop proxies or VPN, but not on Tor, remember
> > on Tor you have not one but three hops. ISP can only see you are
> > connecting to the first hop, not the remaining two (middle and exit,
> > exit is the IP that the website will see).
> >
> >
> >
> > El 22/11/2016 a las 12:48, Jason Long escribió:
> >> Hello.
> >> As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using tor but 
> >> can't see what they are doing. My questions is that if an ISP see that an 
> >> IP address, For example, 100.100.100.1 connected to the Tor network and 
> >> user IP address changed to 200.200.200.1 then if the user visit a website 
> >> with Tor then if the websites owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then 
> >> can ISP give 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> 
> 
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> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[tortalk]

Hi Torusers,

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:41 PM, juanjo  wrote:
> Of course, if all ISP form all the world started to log all connections
> they could follow the path and find your original IP. This is something
> UK is starting to do now...  and many goverments want.

That would be interesting within the aspect of EU harmonization about roaming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu_roaming#Fair_use_policy
"The initial proposal for a fair use policy has been published on 5 September 
2016. It would have limited the amount of free roaming to 90 days in a calendar 
year and a maximum of 30 consecutive days, after which regulated roming charges 
(now in force) would apply. Registering in your home network on a given day 
would not count that day towards the limit. "

Before that each ISP didn't gave away more information - about their clients to 
another ISP in foreign countries - but these which are necessary to do a proper 
fee calculation in each country for using the network. The moment you travelled 
phyiscally behind a boarder the phone call (received/sent) got expensive. EU 
wants to "harmonize" such fee gaps. And each country have got own regulatories 
about the handling of these phone data even behind the ISP fee/limit 
calculation.

It would be interesting to know if an ISP stops sending their logs to other ISP 
in foreign countries even when you don't physically travelled there c/o Tor 
node hopping. Just to remind you of cloudflare. Everyone jumps behind that 
"curtain" once anonymously attacked or scared, or?

Aloha,
Toruser
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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Mirimir]

On 11/22/2016 07:22 AM, Jason Long wrote:
> Thus we must not Visit a site with and without Tor in a same time?

Unless you're very careful not to associate the connections, it's a bad
idea. For casual sock-puppetting, I suppose that it's OK ;)

> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:25 PM, Mirimir  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/22/2016 04:48 AM, Jason Long wrote:
>> Hello.
>> As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using
>> tor but can't see what they are doing. My questions is that if an
>> ISP see that an IP address, For example, 100.100.100.1 connected
>> to the Tor network and user IP address changed to 200.200.200.1
>> then if the user visit a website with Tor then if the websites
>> owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give
>> 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?
>>
>> Thank you.
> 
> As others have pointed out, ISPs don't know Tor exit IP addresses.
> Websites, of course, know Tor exit IP addresses. Because they see them
> when users connect. But knowing them doesn't allow them, or even help
> them, find users' ISP-assigned IP addresses.
> 
> However, let's say that you've used a website without Tor. And let's say
> that you have an account. If you subsequently login to that account
> using Tor, the website operator could contact your ISP (which it knows
> from your prior use without Tor) and ask what you were doing at the time
> you logged in. And they would learn that you were using Tor.
> 
> Even without an account, cookies could mark you just as well.

Unless, I should have said, you're using separate browsers. Such as Tor
browser and Firefox.

> Even so, ISPs generally won't provide that sort of information without a
> court order. So you would need to attract major attention from the
> website, or interested third parties, before you'd be at risk.
> 
> There's also the possibility of website fingerprinting. So if you had
> used a website without Tor, your ISP could have collected data that
> allows them to identify connections to that website. Consider
> . There are many images, and
> they tend to load in a particular order. So the network traffic pattern
> is relatively unique. Many porn sites, for example, also have distinct
> fingerprints.
> 
> But generally, if a website has never seen you without Tor, they have no
> chance of even tracking you back to your ISP. Let alone getting your
> identity from the ISP.
> 
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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Jason Long]

Thus we must not Visit a site with and without Tor in a same time?



On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:25 PM, Mirimir  wrote:



On 11/22/2016 04:48 AM, Jason Long wrote:
> Hello.
> As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using
> tor but can't see what they are doing. My questions is that if an
> ISP see that an IP address, For example, 100.100.100.1 connected
> to the Tor network and user IP address changed to 200.200.200.1
> then if the user visit a website with Tor then if the websites
> owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give
> 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?
> 
> Thank you.

As others have pointed out, ISPs don't know Tor exit IP addresses.
Websites, of course, know Tor exit IP addresses. Because they see them
when users connect. But knowing them doesn't allow them, or even help
them, find users' ISP-assigned IP addresses.

However, let's say that you've used a website without Tor. And let's say
that you have an account. If you subsequently login to that account
using Tor, the website operator could contact your ISP (which it knows
from your prior use without Tor) and ask what you were doing at the time
you logged in. And they would learn that you were using Tor.

Even without an account, cookies could mark you just as well.

Even so, ISPs generally won't provide that sort of information without a
court order. So you would need to attract major attention from the
website, or interested third parties, before you'd be at risk.

There's also the possibility of website fingerprinting. So if you had
used a website without Tor, your ISP could have collected data that
allows them to identify connections to that website. Consider
. There are many images, and
they tend to load in a particular order. So the network traffic pattern
is relatively unique. Many porn sites, for example, also have distinct
fingerprints.

But generally, if a website has never seen you without Tor, they have no
chance of even tracking you back to your ISP. Let alone getting your
identity from the ISP.
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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Mirimir]

On 11/22/2016 04:48 AM, Jason Long wrote:
> Hello.
> As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using
> tor but can't see what they are doing. My questions is that if an
> ISP see that an IP address, For example, 100.100.100.1 connected
> to the Tor network and user IP address changed to 200.200.200.1
> then if the user visit a website with Tor then if the websites
> owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give
> 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?
> 
> Thank you.

As others have pointed out, ISPs don't know Tor exit IP addresses.
Websites, of course, know Tor exit IP addresses. Because they see them
when users connect. But knowing them doesn't allow them, or even help
them, find users' ISP-assigned IP addresses.

However, let's say that you've used a website without Tor. And let's say
that you have an account. If you subsequently login to that account
using Tor, the website operator could contact your ISP (which it knows
from your prior use without Tor) and ask what you were doing at the time
you logged in. And they would learn that you were using Tor.

Even without an account, cookies could mark you just as well.

Even so, ISPs generally won't provide that sort of information without a
court order. So you would need to attract major attention from the
website, or interested third parties, before you'd be at risk.

There's also the possibility of website fingerprinting. So if you had
used a website without Tor, your ISP could have collected data that
allows them to identify connections to that website. Consider
. There are many images, and
they tend to load in a particular order. So the network traffic pattern
is relatively unique. Many porn sites, for example, also have distinct
fingerprints.

But generally, if a website has never seen you without Tor, they have no
chance of even tracking you back to your ISP. Let alone getting your
identity from the ISP.
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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Jason Long]

Oh, You mean is that all ISPs contribute to each other?



On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:41 PM, juanjo  wrote:
No, your ISP can't see your Tor exit IP.

Of course, if all ISP form all the world started to log all connections 
they could follow the path and find your original IP. This is something 
UK is starting to do now...  and many goverments want.


El 22/11/2016 a las 13:02, Jason Long escribió:
> Thus, ISP can't see my Tor IP?
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:27 PM, juanjo  wrote:
> ISP can't see that the user "changed" his IP adress on Tor. What you
> said could work on single-hop proxies or VPN, but not on Tor, remember
> on Tor you have not one but three hops. ISP can only see you are
> connecting to the first hop, not the remaining two (middle and exit,
> exit is the IP that the website will see).
>
>
>
> El 22/11/2016 a las 12:48, Jason Long escribió:
>> Hello.
>> As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using tor but 
>> can't see what they are doing. My questions is that if an ISP see that an IP 
>> address, For example, 100.100.100.1 connected to the Tor network and user IP 
>> address changed to 200.200.200.1 then if the user visit a website with Tor 
>> then if the websites owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give 
>> 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?
>>
>> Thank you.


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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[juanjo]

No, your ISP can't see your Tor exit IP.

Of course, if all ISP form all the world started to log all connections 
they could follow the path and find your original IP. This is something 
UK is starting to do now...  and many goverments want.


El 22/11/2016 a las 13:02, Jason Long escribió:

Thus, ISP can't see my Tor IP?



On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:27 PM, juanjo  wrote:
ISP can't see that the user "changed" his IP adress on Tor. What you
said could work on single-hop proxies or VPN, but not on Tor, remember
on Tor you have not one but three hops. ISP can only see you are
connecting to the first hop, not the remaining two (middle and exit,
exit is the IP that the website will see).



El 22/11/2016 a las 12:48, Jason Long escribió:

Hello.
As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using tor but can't 
see what they are doing. My questions is that if an ISP see that an IP address, For 
example, 100.100.100.1 connected to the Tor network and user IP address changed to 
200.200.200.1 then if the user visit a website with Tor then if the websites owners show 
200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?

Thank you.



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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Jason Long]

Thus, ISP can't see my Tor IP?



On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:27 PM, juanjo  wrote:
ISP can't see that the user "changed" his IP adress on Tor. What you 
said could work on single-hop proxies or VPN, but not on Tor, remember 
on Tor you have not one but three hops. ISP can only see you are 
connecting to the first hop, not the remaining two (middle and exit, 
exit is the IP that the website will see).



El 22/11/2016 a las 12:48, Jason Long escribió:
> Hello.
> As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using tor but 
> can't see what they are doing. My questions is that if an ISP see that an IP 
> address, For example, 100.100.100.1 connected to the Tor network and user IP 
> address changed to 200.200.200.1 then if the user visit a website with Tor 
> then if the websites owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give 
> 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?
>
> Thank you.


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Re: [tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[juanjo]

ISP can't see that the user "changed" his IP adress on Tor. What you 
said could work on single-hop proxies or VPN, but not on Tor, remember 
on Tor you have not one but three hops. ISP can only see you are 
connecting to the first hop, not the remaining two (middle and exit, 
exit is the IP that the website will see).



El 22/11/2016 a las 12:48, Jason Long escribió:

Hello.
As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using tor but can't 
see what they are doing. My questions is that if an ISP see that an IP address, For 
example, 100.100.100.1 connected to the Tor network and user IP address changed to 
200.200.200.1 then if the user visit a website with Tor then if the websites owners show 
200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give 100.100.100.1 to the website owner?

Thank you.



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[tor-talk] Find Real IP via ISP.

[Jason Long]

Hello.
As "Seth David Schoen" said, Governments can see that users using tor but can't 
see what they are doing. My questions is that if an ISP see that an IP address, 
For example, 100.100.100.1 connected to the Tor network and user IP address 
changed to 200.200.200.1 then if the user visit a website with Tor then if the 
websites owners show 200.200.200.1 to the ISP then can ISP give 100.100.100.1 
to the website owner?

Thank you.
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