Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
I used to be very ancius about this , but it's not as all important as some think ( the audiophile thinking is that the sound is completely destroyed if not bit perfect ) . It can be beneficial for some dac to not get full volume but -3dB or somesuch due to intersample clipping in oversampling filters . The typical noise levels in recordings are rarely as good as 16bits anyway 13bits is a good guess then its random noise . Modern digital tech with dither etc and well bits against db actually works out (se my signature for some videos ). The staircase things shown in audio magazines are not how digital audio works. I use the set volume at decent level and then use the player for my second pair of speakers i use . If one wants to be perfectionist the Touch does have a clever volume that fits the 16 bits onto the 24 bit format quite good ,but its not a properly dithered one. Wonder if not the PI3 and picore + DAC i use now is even better . In my main rig with my Meridian Speakers there is no analog volume its digital all the way :) Its ver y good implemetation and it actually performs better than any analog volume could , try to track 5.1*2 channels with a potentiometer (digital xover there is 3 or 2 analog amps in each speaker ) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
Julf wrote: > Maybe load a sound level meter onto your phone? > > -48 dB is quite a lot - it's the difference between normal listening > level and the sound of a whisper. > > > > As anywhere above the -48 dB point is OK, I suggest turning the LMS > volume up to 100%, adjusting the analog amp volume to the loudest you > would ever want, and turning down LMS from there. Good idea - Thanks! Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
doctor_big wrote: > I'd like to know where this correlates to in regard to LMS volume > setting. Maybe load a sound level meter onto your phone? -48 dB is quite a lot - it's the difference between normal listening level and the sound of a whisper. > Again, it'd be nice to know where the -sweet spot- is in regard to a) > keeping the full 16 bits and b) having some wiggle room on either side > for fine-tuning the volume via remote control. As anywhere above the -48 dB point is OK, I suggest turning the LMS volume up to 100%, adjusting the analog amp volume to the loudest you would ever want, and turning down LMS from there. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
I don't know what the actual remaining bit depth is when i do it but i use a SBT analogue out as a pre-amp connected to a small tripath style class D amp. Normal use the volume slider sits around 30-35, and for fun it's more like 60%. Sounds fine in a non critical listening environment in both cases but I'll grant you that's not necessarily conclusive. -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
Julf wrote: > Yes. > > > > You will start getting truncation and/or interpolation as soon as you > turn down the volume at all, but it won't affect the upper 16 bits until > below -48 dB. I would have thought that is way below 60%. > I'd like to know where this correlates to in regard to LMS volume setting. Julf wrote: > > Well, theoretically at least you could turn down the volume until there > is only 1 or 2 bits of resolution left, and then amplify that up to > normal listening volumes... but unless your gain structure is way, way > out of wack, there is no reason to worry. > With only one or two bits of resolution, this would be very audible, I'd think, and not of much use given the topic and drift of this thread. Again, it'd be nice to know where the -sweet spot- is in regard to a) keeping the full 16 bits and b) having some wiggle room on either side for fine-tuning the volume via remote control. Thanks, Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
doctor_big wrote: > My point is, can I leave the volume on my Pi or Touch at around 60%, set > pre/amp gains accordingly, and then use the Touch volume control as a > tune-up for minor changes? Yes. > Will I still get a full 16bit signal? Or will it start truncating and > dithering? You will start getting truncation and/or interpolation as soon as you turn down the volume at all, but it won't affect the upper 16 bits until below -48 dB. I would have thought that is way below 60%. > Is there a point at where a lower volume point introduces audible issues > - say, if I set the Touch volume at 10% and then jack up the volume on > my preamp? Well, theoretically at least you could turn down the volume until there is only 1 or 2 bits of resolution left, and then amplify that up to normal listening volumes... but unless your gain structure is way, way out of wack, there is no reason to worry. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
Julf wrote: > If you change the volume, the signal is altered, by definition. Doesn't > matter what device or software you use. > > Only exception is when you don't actually change the volume, but only > send volume change requests "down the line" (to a smart enough DAC, for > example) - but at some point the actual change has to happen. > > But does it matter? Why do you need an "unaltered" signal? If you send > an analog signal to an analog volume potentiometer, that signal gets > altered too. Let's not go down the rabbit hole. My point is, can I leave the volume on my Pi or Touch at around 60%, set pre/amp gains accordingly, and then use the Touch volume control as a tune-up for minor changes? Will I still get a full 16bit signal? Or will it start truncating and dithering? Is there a point at where a lower volume point introduces audible issues - say, if I set the Touch volume at 10% and then jack up the volume on my preamp? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
I believe it's more like down to -48db or something like that, but yes I heard this is the case. -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
Julf wrote: > No. Any volume adjustment will affect the bits (as the data has to be > scaled). Using primitive, non-dithered scaling, the upper bits only stay > unchanged when the attenuation is an exact power of 2. I think what doctor_big is referring to is that the Touch's scaling factors for volume for higher volume levels are arranged so that the multiplying 16-bit input gives an exact 24-bit result to the DAC. It does this by making sure all bits of the scaling factor below the most-significant 8 bits are zero for all scaling factors down to a certain level of attenuation. I can't remember if that is down to -60dB - there was a fairly recent discussion on this, but I didn't find it with a quick search. utgg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40900 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
doctor_big wrote: > I see. So volume must be full to pass an unaltered signal? > > Edit... Is the situation the same for a pi running max2play? If you change the volume, the signal is altered, by definition. Doesn't matter what device or software you use. Only exception is when you don't actually change the volume, but only send volume change requests "down the line" (to a smart enough DAC, for example) - but at some point the actual change has to happen. But does it matter? Why do you need an "unaltered" signal? If you send an analog signal to an analog volume potentiometer, that signal gets altered too. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
doctor_big wrote: > I had heard that If you keep the sbt 's volume at >60% it will pass a > full 16bit word. Is this correct? No. Any volume adjustment will affect the bits (as the data has to be scaled). Using primitive, non-dithered scaling, the upper bits only stay unchanged when the attenuation is an exact power of 2. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
Julf wrote: > No. Any volume adjustment will affect the bits (as the data has to be > scaled). Using primitive, non-dithered scaling, the upper bits only stay > unchanged when the attenuation is an exact power of 2. I see. So volume must be full to pass an unaltered signal? Thanks Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
I had heard that If you keep the sbt 's volume at >60% it will pass a full 16bit word. Is this correct? doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
And in my experience genuine SB hardware is much better at achieving good sync than the software solutions. -- Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0 Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
On topic it can sometimes be a point to keep it bitperfect HDCD if your DAC handles that or DTS or AC3 coded WAV or FLAC inot a HT reciever or if your just prefer to do all processing later in the chain Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
celo wrote: > OK got it. I actually meant does it really matter if using it only as a > streamer. No, I have no plans to sell unless I want to put some change > in my pocket. However, it is not worth the difference. If used purely as streamer, the SBT and a RPi will do the same job, just as well - but with the SBt you get a touch display and user interface (yes, you can add those to a RPi, but price difference to SBT becomes minimal). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
Julf wrote: > Sure, but... If you already have a SBT, why get a Rpi? The result will > be the same. OK got it. I actually meant does it really matter if using it only as a streamer. No, I have no plans to sell unless I want to put some change in my pocket. However, it is not worth the difference. celo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64476 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
celo wrote: > If I have a separate DAC connected to SBT, why do I need the SBT? > Shouldn't I just sell the SBT and get a Raspberry Pi/HifiBerry to stream > from there instead? Sure, but... If you already have a SBT, why get a Rpi? The result will be the same. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
OK, I am going to ask a totally different question. If I have a separate DAC connected to SBT, why do I need the SBT? Shouldn't I just sell the SBT and get a Raspberry Pi/HifiBerry to stream from there instead? Does SBT still excel vs. other options even if used with a separate DAC? BTW, I am leaning towards getting a passive preamp. My DAC's output level is 3V. celo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64476 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
"yes" it only at 100% volume you got a bitperfect output . But SBT's volume control is operating at 24 bits . As an SBT always outputs 24bit (even with a 16bit signal aka CD ) You can get analogue attenuators to put on the poweramps input , if you use the SBT at reasonably high volume settings the loss of SQ in not using the DAC at max volume may very well offset the loss of connecting a preamp . Ie the digital volume controll could be better than the analougue one . There are many users who skipped the preamp , but good gain staging is important so that you dont max out at 2% volume :) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
[SlimDevices: Touch] Another Bit Perfect question
I have an older DAC with no USB and volume option. SBT (NOT set max/100% volume) is connected via coaxial to my DAC, and my DAC's analog output is connected to my amp's input. Do I have bit perfect setup this way? If above is no, then I need a preamp to be able to get bit perfect. If I have a preamp; SBT (SET at max/100% volume) is connected via coaxial to my DAC, my DAC's analog output is connected to my preamp's analog input, and preamp's output is connected to my amp. Now, I have bit perfect set up? I am correct? celo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64476 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107208 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
