Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Or simply evaluate their repositories separately, calculate their full distro status by logically AND'ing all their repositories (Free:TRUE, Nonfree:FALSE) and list it all in each distribution's explanation sub-paragraph. If there are other variables (ATM I can't think of one) to be taken into consideration, then also include them in that logical AND function.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Regarding whether the work of software liberation could as well be done in Debian, since it's already the upstream: With upstream, I mean primarily the developer, secondarily Debian. There are things within Debian sphere, and those that are beyond it. - Take IceCat for instance - it's not in Debian. - Or another package where upstream (the developer) won't accept Trisquel modifications. - Or another package where some non-free additions are introduced by Debian itself. - Or another package where some Trisquel modifications are against some Debian policy. In such cases the freed package will not be in Debian/main, which means it will have to be kept and maintained separately in Trisquel private repository. Working with Debian as the upstream may be more convenient where it is possible. In other cases independent action may be necessary. So, a workgroup dedicated to libre OS is better off as an independent distribution, I think.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Trisquel 8 + ARM = :-)
"EOMA68 uses ARM?" https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop A20 Dual-Core ARM Cortex A7, 1.2 GHz "sorry for my bad english, but I make that I can" It is no problem.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Trisquel 8 + ARM = :-)
EOMA68 uses ARM? I never heard about a Trisquel port to ARM. Every day I learn something new (sorry for my bad english, but I make that I can).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
I might be wrong here (of course I might, because I don't/can't speak for the FSF, and I don't participate on the workgroup for free/libre distribution evaluation), but perhaps the whole point of the GNU FSDG is to answer questions such as: "Once a user sits in front of the system dinstribution being evaluated, how easy is for the distribution **iteslf** (or project, and those involved) to recommend non-(free/libre) software?" Notice, however, that in such question, the focus is the average user, and so the thing that can "interface" directly with such user is a system distribution. What could be done (although risking being overwork) is: continuing having the GNU FSDG; but also make a Free Software Repository Guidelines (GNU FSRG). But this could also result in more confusion since we also have the GNU Ethical Repository Criteria that serves to evaluates code-hosting servicese (i.e.: not repositories to be used by [possible] free/libre system distributions directly).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Yes, that's what I meant ;) The work of software liberation could as well be done for Debian (which is a better idea since it's already upstream). In theory, using Debian's repo shouldn't change Trisquel's goals. And yet, as long as the non-free repos exist, and as long as Debian makes non-free recommendations, Trisquel (gNewSense) is meaningful. Frankly, I don't know, I don't understand all the consequences, but I like the idea of using Deb main because the plethora of weak distros is a waste of effort. But again, I don't fully understand the consequences.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
From the link you posted (from Alberto): While the FSF does not include Debian on this list because the Debian project provides a repository of nonfree software, the FSF does acknowledge that Debian's main repository, which by default is the only place packages come from, is completely free. "Unlike other common GNU/Linux distributions, installing official Debian by default means installing only free software. As long as Debian users do not add additional package repositories, their systems are a reliable source of fully free compatibility information. We're looking forward to working with Debian to help free software users get the hardware they need, and encourage the companies who provide it," said FSF's executive director John Sullivan. It still reads (to me) as as a half acknowledging. But I know you mean that it's the part that counts. Well, assuming the non-free repos are the ONLY issue (and not the non-free recommendations here and there), then I see your point of not using Debian, but it's repo. Yet it seems complicated to separate the repo from the distro, though I don't know, to be honest. And the rest is about common work towards populating h-node. So, yes, I find your idea is interesting. I just don't know how practical it is.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Oh, I think you meant something else by dropping the name. If all the downstream modifications are accepted by upstream, then after a while, there would be no difference left between upstream and Trisquel packages. So Trisquel would be ditto Debian, and its mission would come to an end. If you have meant this, then I could say there will always be some package ripe for liberation, so the race will never end. It wil only get more and more beautiful Say, Trisquel has 100 packages in its liberated repository, 90 of them got embraced by upstream, so there are just 10 packages keft for Trisquel to maintain. Then Trisquel can adopt 90 new non-free packages for liberation, submits them to upstream and so on. The more packages upstream embraces, the more new packages Trisquel adopts for liberation. This way, Trisquel's efforts would have cumulative effect on the whole free software community and it will be a never ending chase. So Trisquel would always keep its distinct personality.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Sure, Takumi not Alberto, which by the way is a very polite and decent mate (unlike me).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
I have seen the pages you referred to. But that doesn't invalidate the older link Alberto has given. The difference is that, the pages you refer deal with distributions as a whole, whereas the older link deals specifically with the main repository of Debian. This is precisely why I wished for a layered approach by FSDG to solve these kind of ambiguities. FSF may still endorse or reject distributions as a whole (thus excluding Debian), but at the same time they can also be explicit about the individual repositories. They already acknowledged Debian/main as free, but there's no explicit, direct mention of it in related pages, which creates ambiguity. As for "dropping the name", :) well let us say being a true Debian fork. Not personalizing Trisquel doesn't cause it to lose its personality, because its true personality lies in its liberty, not in its looks.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
If you want a Libre OS that is based on Ubuntu then use Trisquel. If you want a Libre OS that is based on Debian then use gNewSense. Each has its merits, each has its reasons for choosing the distro they are based on. There are a few official FSF/Libre distros and a more distros that are Libre but not yet FSF approved. Two off the top of my head are FreeSlack (more of a way to liberate Slackware then its own distro) and ConnocahetOS (based on Slackware and SalixOS). ref: http://freeslack.net/ https://connochaetos.org/wiki/
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
First of all, no loosening or compromise on FSDG seems to be needed as per the link I've referred to. Secondly, regarding "What would be Trisquel's raison d'être?" it would be that Trisquel would become just like Debian (as you have pointed out) but with better free solutions. That is, Trisquel would be = Debian/main + a lot of free solutions that are not available in Debian domain. I used the term "solution" because it has a broader meaning than "application", also encompassing drivers, firmware, documentation, knowledge base, etc. It has been brought to attention that these should be handled by upstream so that all the downstream disrtos would benefit from that. While it's true, a contribution (e.g. liberation of some software) can also be made by a downstream entity (e.g. Trisquel) that gets rippled through upstream to the whole world. There's nothing keeping anyone from liberating an application and then contributing it to the whole free software community. Some liberation modifications would be accepted by upstream (thus lifting the burden of re-modifying it for every release) while some liberation modifications would be rejected by upstream. So, upstream developers' attitude can be an important parameter as to which applications to be focused on to liberate. In a nutshell, what I have been suggesting was, Trisquel being just like Debian/main, without personality, and allocating all thus saved resources into pure liberation work. Having a personalized distro hogs up a lot of resources that could have been used in areas that really matter (i.e. liberation of sw and hw). This is a considerably high level, strategic decision up to distro maintainers. Of course a ship can't be expected to change directions on the whims of a passer-by like me. So, what I've suggested was just an idea, a food for thought, my 2 kuruş on it.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Asus KFSN 4-DRE at the end of november 2016
Ok, on #libreboot, no one is able to answer me, besides the the info that
this board has not been fully tested yet.
Lilos posted a thread (closed now, very practical) about several issues, like
not being able to boot with 2 CPUs, USB keyboard not working, the PC not
booting from the GPU ("fully" supported by Nouveau, I checked), and the HDD
not recognized.
So I have no idea if updates since may solve these issues or not.
So it's safe to say: don't purchase for now.
I have one, but now I really hesitate in purchasing the rest of the hardware
until I have more info.
This sucks, hopefully it will end up being a worthy investment.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
OK, so loosened in this specific way, as in: - letting non-free suggestion be (I guess this won't pass, but for users in the know, it's manageable. Until you want to install it for a newbie I suppose). - What else? Yeah, I see what you mean now. But then what's the point of Trisquel if it's exactly like Debian? As far as I know, the non-free repos from Debian could be used in Trisquel (incompatibilities included as it is based on Ubuntu for now). I doubt GnewSense has a free ride, but I don't remember. They definitely modify stuff, that much I know for sure (the modifications are listed on their website).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
My point is, Debian/main can be used *without modification* by Trisquel (or gNewSense for that matter). The whole rationale behind a loosened FSDG idea was to be able to get a free ride on Debian/main in the first place. BTW the fact that gNewSense is based on Debian doesn't guarantee that they are getting a free ride (i.e. using Debian/main without modification). They may as well be modifying most of the packages in main, just as Trisquel does for Ubuntu packages. We don't know. This is to be followed up on gNewSense circles.
[Trisquel-users] Re : Hello world
We were reacting to Takumi13's message (now hidden).
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Oh, but it's already considered that way regarding Debian. It's just that for new or inexperienced users, it's possible to install non-free firmware by accident. Hence Debian as a whole being suggested to experienced users preferably. But we're splitting hair here. Yes, in theory, Trisquel could be based on Debian main and still be free. I guess it could have the FSF's blessings too (even if I personally do not care about that. The only value it hasin my eyes is to help inexperienced users to figure out what is free without risks, and what is free but could not be if mistakes are made. But the latter applies to fully free Distros as well, it's just a matter of degrees). But then, what's your point? If your question is whether Debian could be used as a base and be accepted by the FSF, obviously yes since GnewSense did it.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
With a layered approach, I mean the same FSDG rules applied separately per each repository. So, in Debian's case the outcome would be like this: Debian/main = free Debian/contrib = non-free Debian/non-free = non-free instead of Debian = non-free The FSDG rules are the same, no compromise is ever made, just applied in a finer resolution for the sake of unambiguity. This is irrelevant regarding Debian/main's applicability to Trisquel, though. Either way, Trisquel can tap on Debian/main and still get endorsed by FSF (as I understand it).
[Trisquel-users] Trisquel 8 + ARM = :-)
Remember this line from The Breakfast Club?: "Will milk be made available to us?" In a similar tone of voice I must ask: "Will ARM be made available to us?" Having heard Rubén say a few years ago that Trisquel will make an ARM port when there is suitable freedom-respecting hardware to run it on, has anyone heard anything about Trisquel 8 making an ARM port next year for the EOMA68 computers?
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
I definitely think Debian as a base would be potentially better, simply based on the fact that there's one less intermediary layer (whatever Ubuntu adds), which potentially means less things to fix. But I'm more worried about the little bugs I encounter sometimes on Trisquel (I have yet to experience Debian extensively, so it's unfair to compare at this stage). Still, a layered, fine tuned approach of per-repository assessment (as opposed to per-distro) would be better in my opinion. What do you mean by that? From what I get, you take your "loosened FSDG" back, and then bring it up again. So I don't understand what you mean. To me, it's either libre, or not. Period. It's binary. Most things in life aren't, but this definitely is, to me. As soon as you close the code, there's potential for abuse. And several of these abuses were found out.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Regarding "FSF should not compromise" opinion expressed by CalmStorm, hack and hack and others; https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-and-debian-join-forces-to-help-free-software-users-find-the-hardware-they-need Upon this link (thanks to Alberto) I take my "loosened FSDG" suggestion back. Still, a layered, fine tuned approach of per-repositoty assessment (as opposed to per-distro) would be better in my opinion. Regardless, Debian/main seems to be officially declared as libre by FSF, as per the link above. At least this is what I inferred from the text. So, to my understanding, no compromise needed in order for a libre distribution to be able to tap on Debian's main repository, while keeping its FSF endorsement at the same time.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Thats not what i thought at all. I tryed to be kind with our new friend Abdullah. I understand he wants to participate. I would like him to try trisquel of course, but i never say to him to shut up or to stop asking questions or talking with us. And I absolutely not meant to be rude with him. We all deserve respect. Just because or opinions are different doesn't give me or you the right to be disrespectful
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
I third this with really intentions.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Liberating software is no trivial task. As for loosened rules, non-free is non-free, there's no way around it. It's up to the user to decide if compromise is an option, and to which extent/in which conditions. I personally will stay with free software. Mass adoption can't be achieved when the point is to loosen rules that represent the core reason of why free software exists. Plus basing it on Debian (which is free software minus the repo and a few recommendation for non-free software) wouldn't make Trisquel more popular and wouldn't change much regarding mass adoption. I mean even Debian with the non-free parts isn't massively adopted on desktops/laptops. Gnu/Linux as a whole is like 2% of the total computer users if I remember correctly. Mass adoption requires (IMO): - solid software (very little bugs for the average user) - solid hardware compatibility (even Debian withe the non-free drivers isn't that popular) - The last component is knowledge about free-software, and privacy issues, which to me was the most important motivator. I think people talk about privacy a whole lot more, but I doubt behaviors really changed. - ease of adoption/use. The two last points are still lacking in my opinion. Understanding how better privacy works with a one page article would be IMO great. That means people understand, and can use the computer right away, nothing to tweak, and they can dig further if they want. Ideally, tor should be installed by default, the normal browser should have a verly limited set of plugins pre-configured, etc.
Re: [Trisquel-users] owncloud forked by co creator
Seafile is supposedly better than both (faster file transfer), but Own/Nextcloud's interface is said to be better because there are interfaces developped for calendar, email and such.
[Trisquel-users] Re : Hello world
Ubuntu supports the ARM architecture too: https://help.ubuntu.com/16.04/serverguide/preparing-to-install.html#system-requirements
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
I don't think the fsf should or will compromise, but... I also think that a debian trisquel would be a good idea to switch to not now, but whenever debian 10 comes out. That's just my thought though.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
I second this!
Re: [Trisquel-users] "Best" computer with libreboot?
I'll have to rewrite what I said a bit. People use free software for different reasons. - Not having arbitrary limitations is one. - privacy from companies and from governments in case they start going insane, like in Turkey. And in all this, some need more power, in order to compute as they did with proprietary software. Most likely, they'll ave to make some degree of concessions, else have another computer for work, and really separate both. So the best machine (in performance) for free software and PRIVACY as the focus in my case (with Libreboot, or at least with a computer where AMT/ME and the like is too complicated to setup, thus with a non-free BIOS) most likely costs either lots of money or lots of time. But it most likely would be something like the latest supported Libreboot Thinkpad for a laptop, and that super mobo (something something 16, check the Libreboot wiki for the details). I spent so much time (and still a decent amount of cash setting up free machines... It's the opposite of efficiency. Plus the whole education on privacy is bits here and there, and again a whole lot of work. This has ZERO chances to work that way. That's why for now, I'd invest in EOMA68-based cards (with Debian, insisting on not allowing non-free repos), and suggest that for personal use, and any other machine for work, if it's a necessity. Hopefully one day, we will have super powered EOMA68-based cards, but I somehow doubt it because you have to take heat into account. More power means more heat, right? It's still a good solution for normal computing. And maybe it's possible to build stuff with fans/heatsinks around the card, so, the sky's the limit, in theory. Of course, GPU compatibility is probably out of question. That would require some external PCI-E adapter. That's for the hardware and software. Sure, most people want a Mac, or a monster gaming tower (which are horrible in terms of privacy and general software freedom), because: - it's trendy (no comment...) - it's beautiful out of the box (can't argue with that, thought beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and trisquel is not so bad out of the box. Maybe Faenza icons would be better ;) ). - it's easy to use (drag and drop install and delete maybe, but mostly no ERRORS all the time (though it happens, but still much less than both Win and OSX) So yeah, plenty of bugs. Well, pro support and perfect hardware integration does that, I suppose. Also lots of automated stuff, but again, for the same reasons. Though the bugs happen when you want to tweak the system. A standard Trisquel install has bugs, but not that much. They're still hugely annoying from a normal user's point of view. For education about data protection, this is complicated. The wiki is good, but both incomplete and too complex. For example, about the browser addons: how many are really needed, how to configure them, why aren't they pre-configured, etc... I tried to write here a down and dirty guide to privacy, but it has too many approximations due to my lack of knowledge. But I really think something like that is needed. End of the rant.
[Trisquel-users] owncloud forked by co creator
Any thoughts if nextcloud will be better than owncloud? On an unrelated note though, nextcloud is going to be developed more in the open. What are your thoughts about that? I got it installed currently.
[Trisquel-users] Re : Hello world
No. Please respect the community guidelines: Do not insult others here. Disagree and challenge ideas instead.
Re: [Trisquel-users] Hello world
Abdullah Ramazanoglu why you are such a pain in the ass. Shut up for once and install/use Trisquel you smart-ass! p.s. I am just saying what everybody starts to think at this point about you!
Re: [Trisquel-users] Howto reactivate laptop's NIC (it worked fine and still works under Parabola)
BTW, I've just tested that this problem is not Trisquel exclusive: If I boot with Parabola (live) the slow-LAN-speed issue repeats identically. Thanks a lot for any help!
