RE: [TruthTalk]Covenants
Excellent commentary Judy--send more soon! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think I need to clarify a few things here: (1)What we have traditionally called the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi) and the New Testament (Matthew to Revelation) is a use of terms in a way that God never uses them! Genesis to Malachi is referred to in scripture as the scriptures, the law etc, but never the old testament/covenant. So when I use the term old covenant I try to use it in it's scriptural sense, of the covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai. judy: Wouldn't Mosaic covenant be more exact Bruce? It was a conditional covenant based on Israel's acceptance of God's terms. See Ex.24:1-8 God has made at least nine covenants throughout history and each one is signified with a manifest token. That token lasts as long as the covenant. Judy: All covenants made with God are conditional - He is the great and awesome God who keeps His covenant and loving kindness for those who love Him and keep his commandments (Daniel 9:4). Bruce: The first unconditional covenant was made with Noah and all flesh in Gen.9. It was signified by the rainbow and is still in force today. God also made an unconditional covenant with Abraham (Gen.17). That covenant was signified with circumcision of Abraham's male descendants, and it also continues forever, as will circumcision of Jews and Arabs. Judy: No covenant is unconditional not even the New Covenant. The covenant with Abraham as well as the New Covenant are not between unequal parties. Abraham did not walk through the pieces, God did. In the New Covenant Jesus walked through the pieces on our behalf so the covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. Like Mephibosheth we enter the Covenant through adoption (as sons) by the King. We are heirs to a previously established covenant between God the Father and His son Jesus. Bruce: But the covenant made at Sinai was signified with the visible token of the sprinkling of blood of animal sacrifice. That covenant ended with the sacrifice of Christ and the rending of the vail of the temple. Judy: The Mosaic covenant was a revelation of God's holiness and His desire for a holy people. The Hebrews had found themselves in bondage to Egypt because they were transgressing the Abrahamic covenant (they were not obedient to its conditions) and so God gave them a tutor or schoolmaster in the form of law until the time of the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham (Gal 3:23-25) Bruce: It is not me or the RCC that vanished that covenant! God did! Heb.8:13 says, In that He (God) saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Judy: Note that Hebrews 9:1 describes that what was vanishing were the ordinances of divine service and the worldly sanctuary and not God's statutes and commandments which according to Hebrews 8: 10-12 had been put into their minds and written on their hearts. (2) The new covenant is NOT Matthew to Revelation! The new covenant was made at Calvary. So actually almost all the events of the Gospel records are under the old covenant. Much of the Lord Jesus' teaching in the Gospels is teaching relative to relationships that would be true when He had dedicated the new covenant. But the use of temple buildings which He called My Father's house was an old covenant practice. The vail was rent when Jesus died indicating that God no longer dwelt in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48 and 17:24) and that the way of access into the holiest was now made open through the blood of Christ (Heb.10:19-22) Judy: God never did dwell in temples made with hands; Acts 7:48 refers to the prophet Nathan who told David to do what was on his heart but later returned with a word from God see (2 Sam 7:5-17). Vs.13 does not speak of Solomon; we know that Solomon's kingdom did not last forever, this verse refers to Jesus who is the one with the everlasting kingdom. Bruce: Under the old covenant, one always had to be in the right PLACE to worship God. God always had His dwelling in PLACES! But the major feature of the new covenant is that God's dwelling is now in PEOPLE. That is why we can worship Him anywhere at all...WE ARE THE TEMPLE! That is why many believers who recognize new covenant truths say, We don't GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH! You simply cannot go to yourself, so if God dwells in you, you cannot go to where He dwells either! Judy: God dwells in us by His Spirit and yes corporately we are in the process of being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood. (1 Peter 2:5). Scripture also tells me that my physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit but I am the only one who can worship there and I am not the
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Bruce, I agree with most of what you said. I am aware that we are the church (Body of Christ), and I have always been bothered by building church buildings with all the mortgages, etc. It seems like one solution to large groups needing to meet, and I'm not ready to condemn it all just because home churches may be superior in most ways. I'll have to think about ALL of your points later (when I'm not watching after a 1, 3, and 5 year old!) Currently the older two are watching a video, and 1 year old is having fun pulling everything out of the food pantry (and eating some of it), and Grandfather is getting his nap after taking the older two to eat and bounce happily at the McDonald's Fun Place!!! This morning the 5 yr old, Gretchen, got up at the crack of dawn and I heard her walking around the house. So I sleepily dragged myself out of bed to check on her. I walked into the living room to find her smiling happily at me and asking, Grandmother, what are you doing up so early? I have learned that when you can't find the 1 year old you should check in the dog crate. The most exciting moment (so far) was yesterday morning when I opened the back patio door to let the dogs out and a skink (lizard to me!) ran into the kitchen! So little Sammie the teeniest dachshund in the world fiercely attacked it and bit off it's tail! So the skink is running around one way and its tail is wiggling around the other way, and the dog is trying to eat them both--Grandfather had to come to the rescue!!! Just wait--your day is coming, Grandpa Bruce! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Good morning Izzy, In response to my statement:Since the new covenant made the first old, decayed and ready to vanish away (Heb.8:13) neither Jews nor Gentiles have any direction from God to construct any sort of temple or sanctuary for gatherings of new covenant saints!. You responded:So you believe that the whole OT is null and void now? Funny, I was under the impression that the first century Believers (including Jesus) worshipped at temples, honored the Sabbath, and believed that Torah was eternal. But now it is vanished away? Maybe it was the apostate papal RCC that vanished it--I don't think the Lord did. As for me, neither of the Lord's Covenants are done away with--His OT and NT is written on my heart of flesh, rather than a heart of stone. I think I need to clarify a few things here: (1)What we have traditionally called the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi) and the New Testament (Matthew to Revelation) is a use of terms in a way that God never uses them! Genesis to Malachi is referred to in scripture as the scriptures, the law etc, but never the old testament/covenant. So when I use the term old covenant I try to use it in it's scriptural sense, of the covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai. It was a conditional covenant based on Israel's acceptance of God's terms. See Ex.24:1-8 God has made at least nine covenants throughout history and each one is signified with a manifest token. That token lasts as long as the covenant. The first unconditional covenant was made with Noah and all flesh in Gen.9. It was signified by the rainbow and is still in force today. God also made an unconditional covenant with Abraham (Gen.17). That covenant was signified with circumcision of Abraham's male descendants, and it also continues forever, as will circumcision of Jews and Arabs. But the covenant made at Sinai was signified with the visible token of the sprinkling of blood of animal sacrifice. That covenant ended with the sacrifice of Christ and the rending of the vail of the temple. It is not me or the RCC that vanished that covenant! God did! Heb.8:13 says, In that He (God) saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (2) The new covenant is NOT Matthew to Revelation! The new covenant was made at Calvary. So actually almost all the events of the Gospel records are under the old covenant. Much of the Lord Jesus' teaching in the Gospels is teaching relative to relationships that would be true when He had dedicated the new covenant. But the use of temple buildings which He called My Father's house was an old covenant practice. The vail was rent when Jesus died indicating that God no longer dwelt in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48 and 17:24) and that the way of access into the holiest was now made open through the blood of Christ (Heb.10:19-22) (3)Under the old covenant, one always had to be in the right PLACE to worship God. God always had His dwelling in PLACES! But the major feature of the new covenant is that God's dwelling is now in PEOPLE. That is why we can worship Him anywhere at all...WE ARE THE TEMPLE! That is why many believers who recognize
Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants
Hi Judy, You wrote: Wouldn't Mosaic covenant be more exact Bruce? Actually, this covenant is not spoken of as being made with Moses, but is designated by... -where it was made: Deut.29:1 in Horeb -when it was made: Deut.29:25; I Kings 8:9; when He brought them out of Egypt. -with whom it was made: I Kings 8:9 with the children of Israel You wrote: All covenants made with God are conditional - He is the great and awesome God who keeps His covenant and loving kindness for those who love Him and keep his commandments (Daniel 9:4). God makes covenants with men. The covenant that is in view in Dan.9:4 is the covenant that God made with Israel after they came out of Egypt! It WAS CONDITIONED UPON THEIR OBEDIENCE! See Ex.19:5 You wrote: No covenant is unconditional not even the New Covenant. The covenant with Abraham as well as the New Covenant are not between unequal parties. Abraham did not walk through the pieces, God did. In the New Covenant Jesus walked through the pieces on our behalf so the covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. Like Mephibosheth we enter the Covenant through adoption (as sons) by the King. We are heirs to a previously established covenant between God the Father and His son Jesus. I'm sorry sister, but there are no covenants in scripture made between divine persons! Covenants were only established AFTER sin had entered into the world and people found by experience that they could not trust one anothers' word or promises! So God began to make covenants (binding promises) to assure sinful human beings that THEY COULD TRUST HIM!. But because there is no distrust between The Father and The Son, there is absolutely no need for any covenants between them! The covenant in Gen.17 was not made BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON! IT was made by God WITH ABRAHAM, and through him with Isaac, Jacob and their seed. SeeExodus 2:24; Leviticus 26:42; 2 Kings 13:23; 1 Chronicles 16:16; and Psalms 105:9 You wrote:The Mosaic covenant was a revelation of God's holiness and His desire for a holy people. The Hebrews had found themselves in bondage to Egypt because they were transgressing the Abrahamic covenant (they were not obedient to its conditions) and so God gave them a tutor or schoolmaster in the form of law until the time of the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham (Gal 3:23-25) Sister, can you be specific about the conditions of the covenant which God made with Abraham which were violated by Israel which violations became the reason why they were in Egyptian bondage?? Where does scripture state this idea?? You wrote:Note that Hebrews 9:1 describes that what was vanishing were the ordinances of divine service and the worldly sanctuary and not God's statutes and commandments which according to Hebrews 8: 10-12 had been put into their minds and written on their hearts. Sister, I would remind you that the worldly sanctuary of Heb.9 along with it's furnishings, the ark the cherubim etc had passed away centuries before Hebrews 9!!! Also Heb.8:10-12 does NOT say that God would put His statutes and commandments into their hearts but rather His LAWS. Deut. 4:13 defines the specific contents of the covenant that was first made with them children of Israel as THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! This is precisely the first covenant (Heb.8:7-9) which decayed, waxed old and was ready to vanish away when the Book of Hebrews was written nearly two millenia ago! The book of the law in which the curses were written (Gal.3:10) was the Book of Deuteronomy! See Deuteronomy 29:21; 30:10; 31:26; Joshua 1:8 Such was only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and we are NO LONGER UNDER THAT SCHOOLMASTER, BUT ARE RATHER THE CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS! (Gal.3:21-26) You wrote:God never did dwell in temples made with hands; Acts 7:48 refers to the prophet Nathan who told David to do what was on his heart but later returned with a word from God see (2 Sam 7:5-17). Vs.13 does not speak of Solomon; we know that Solomon's kingdom did not last forever, this verse refers to Jesus who is the one with the everlasting kingdom. Judy, Exodus 25:8 specificly tells us that that children of Israel were to build the tabernacle as a sanctuary so God could dwell among them. True, it was a TENT and NOT a HOUSE as II Sam.7 states. But AFTER Solomon's temple was built, God did dwell there! The Lord Jesus stated repeatedly concerning the temple in Jerusalem that it was HIS FATHER'S HOUSE! God also dwelt in the bush, where Moses met Him! See Deut.33:16. You wrote: I agree that most of what we see is lopsided. ATST baby Christians can not be expected to do the work of the ministry, they have to learn. (I don't know what ATST means!) Sister, I do not seek to be disagreeable, but I cannot agree with you assumption that only mature body members can minister. This is never stated in scripture! Think of your grandchildren when they were born: not one of their members
