Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
John wrote: The Son is such because He is always the Servant of the Father. John wrote: A son can become a servant on any or several occasions. And a servant can become a son, which is the case in which we find ourselves. John wrote: The fact that He claimed to be the Son was understood by those of His day as making Himself equal to God. Actually, we should recognize that for the most part, Jesus did not directly claim to be the Son of God. He referred to God as his Father, and this is what was interpreted as his making himself equal to God. Furthermore, it was not just his words, but how he acted and carried himself. John wrote: I believe that Jesus Christ is a term that always includes this notion Sonship. I doubt seriously that the biblical writers ever wrote those words, Jesus Christ, without felling the excitement of that first confession, Thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I agree. As Terry pointed out, he was never known as Jesus Christ until he was born of Mary, so if this is the term that denotes sonship to you, why would you object to those who see sonship as a functional role he took on by his own personal experience of the incarnation? John wrote: If being a son does no damage to the notion of equality, why would any other function impair that belief, when speaking of the Christ? Being a son does affect the notion of equality in some ways. In a father and son relationship, the father is considered superior and in authority over the son, is he not? I have always viewed my earthly father this way. How about you? Furthermore, we have Jesus saying, my father is greater than I. Does this denote any inequality in your mind? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Bill Taylor wrote: I guess I know you well enough to know that this will not be convincing, nor the end of this :) Perhaps you do not know me as well as you think. I thought your post was articulated very well and was very convincing. Nonetheless,I'm sure you would agree that suchdoes not mean that it was comprehensive and settled the matter for all, once and for all. I fully agree with all that you said. Yeshua did reveal the same servant heart whom he shared with God throughout eternity. Bill Taylor wrote: The Son did not become less than God in his service to humanity 1. Yeshua, in his earthly service to humanity, was made a little lower than the angels. 2. Yeshua said his father was greater than he was. Do such factshave any relevance in discussing the notion ofequality with God? Peace be with you.David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
John wrote: ... that would have over looked the intrinsic value of shared thinking. I have always said it this way. No man on earth has the full revelation of Christ within himself. The fullness of Christ is revealed only through his ekklesia (assembly), as we are in relationship with one another. There are some truths that we will never receive directly through the Spirit or through reading the Bible for ourselves, but God has determined that some truth will be revealed to us through our brothers and sisters who are in Christ. In other words, if I want to know the whole truth, I cannot ignore the community of Christ. Another analogy I often give is that understanding truth is a lot like holding up a coin in the midst of a circle of people. Some people view one side of the coin while others view the other side. We can sit around and fight about how one side is inaccurately representing the description of the coin, or we can lighten up and realize that there are two sides to the coin and some of us cannot view the other side except through our neighbor. When we walk in love toward one another, we will listen to our neighbor and gain a more full knowledge of the coin by doing so. Of course, we must recognize also that some people are not looking at the coin and want to enter into the dialogue and so they make stuff up. Some people too might just want to try and misrepresent the coin for their own personal reasons. And then there are those sincere people who are just not very good at describing what they see. Such makes the whole situation a little less than pristine as we seek to distinguish those who are accurately describing the coin from those who are not. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] AOL problems with receiving mail
John wrote: It is 11:30 my time. The post below has 9:17 PM for the time sent -- something I wrote and sent around 7:30, in fact. I have missed a number of posts, entirely, based upon the fact that I have come across a number of posts copied over which were never received -- but there they are in your (you all) posts. Problem. Also - have I been shunned, as they say? Hi John. I'm sorry you are having problems receiving mail. AOL is constantly revamping ways to stop spam, and somehow their system is blocking mail from us. The connection from our mail server to AOL is rejected with a notice that some of their users have instructed their software that mail from us is spam. When our connection is rejected, our mail server will keep trying to resend the mail from time to time, and sometimes the AOL mail servers will accept it. This is what explains the delays you have experienced. I have asked to be put on AOL's feedback system to be notified when someone complains of our mail being spam, but thus far I have not received a single notification of a complaint. I would encourage you to complain to AOL about this problem. I think they need to readjust their system. I have problems sometimes sending personal mail to AOL users too because they have marked our IP as a spam concern. They probably use a variety of factors to reject mail, and email from a list like truthtalk probably adds weight to their algorithm and makes mail from TruthTalk even less likely to be allowed through. In the mean time, you could sign up for an email account on yahoo or hotmail, or I could set you up an email account on innglory.org if you like. Or, you can just wait it out and hope AOL fixes the problem. I know of one user who complained to AOL, but he got some South African on the phone who could not really help. He was simply told that our mail server was spamming millions of people, which I know is not true. I could send them our mail logs to prove it, but I don't know anybody there who would receive them and fix this problem. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
John wrote: Bill could very well become a teacher's teacher. Bill already is a teacher's teacher. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Lance wrote: If ya hasn't read it how duz ya know what to call it? I listen to those who have read it, and I am reading it now. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]
Reggie White, known as an NFL legend and a fearless proclaimer of the Gospel, dies at 43 By Erin Curry - BP News CHRISTIAN EXAMINER NASHVILLE, Tenn.- He was a two-time NFL Defensive Player of the Year, was elected to the Pro Bowl a record 13 straight times, set a Super Bowl record with three sacks and retired in 2000 as the NFL's all-time leader in sacks. But Reggie White's life as a football legend and unashamed proclaimer of the Gospel - which earned him the nickname "Minister of Defense" - ended abruptly Dec. 26 at age 43. The cause of White's death was not immediately known, although he suffered from a respiratory ailment that affected his sleep, according to the Associated Press. Because of his talent on the field and his outspokenness off it, White will forever be known as one of sports' most prominent Christian athletes. "I've always believed since I was a kid that God was going to allow me to play professional football, to use it as a platform to proclaim and live out the name of Jesus," White once said on "The 700 Club" on the Christian Broadcasting Network. "And, you know, that's the most exciting part about my life because God has done things in me to change my character to benefit the Kingdom." White, who was a standout defensive end for the Philadelphia Eagles, Green Bay Packers and Carolina Panthers for 15 total years, was outspoken about his faith in Jesus Christ and the power of his Savior to change lives. In 1999, he spoke at the Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting in Atlanta, urging messengers to unite for a common goal. "Jesus prayed that we might be one in unity, as He and the Father are one," White said. "He also commanded us to love one another. One thing I see lacking in the church of Jesus Christ is that many of us don't love each other. We don't watch each other's back." He used an illustration from the football field to make his point. "If I see a black guy about to lay out our quarterback, Brett Favre, I'm going to lay him out first. It's not about color on the football field," he said at the SBC. "It's amazing to me to see that in professional sports we can have one guy in a gang sitting on the bench next to a redneck, and they learn to get along and work for the same goals. "If we could only learn the lessons that we see in many of our sports activities, we would make a better unit, because we're fighting for the same goals. But the problem is, many of us don't love each other," White said. White's wife, Sara, released a statement, reading: "Today our beloved husband, father and friend passed away. His family appreciates your thoughts and prayers as we mourn the loss of Reggie White. We want to thank you in advance for honoring our privacy." Paul Tagliabue, commissioner of the National Football League, called White a "gentle warrior" who will be remembered as one of the greatest defensive players in NFL history. "Equally as impressive as his achievements on the field was the positive impact he made off the field and the way he served as a positive influence on so many young people," Tagliabue said in a statement. Favre, who played alongside White in Green Bay, also ranked him high among the NFL greats. "I had the utmost respect for Reggie White as a player," he said. "He may have been the best player I've ever seen and certainly was the best I've ever played with or against." Harry Galbreath, a former teammate and roommate of White's at Green Bay, told The Tennessean newspaper how small decisions testified to White's character. "I can remember during training camp renting this video that had a sexually suggestive scene in it," Galbreath said. "Reggie said, 'You need to turn that off.' I said, 'No, man, I'm watching the movie.' Reggie then got up and turned off the TV, and I didn't say a thing." Earlier this year, Mark Brunell, a former teammate of White's with the Packers, recalled for The Washington Times one of White's impromptu sermons in the Green Bay locker room. "Y'all need to go to Bible study," White's booming baritone declared. "Y'all need to go and listen to the Gospel." Moments later, "Y'all not listening to me because I'm talking about something that you don't like. Why y'all going to the parties? Why y'all doing these things when you won't even open your Bible?" Brunell thought of White as a quarterback-cruncher preaching peace, like a 300-pound Jesus amid the football grit, The Times said. "I was in shock," Brunell said. "But that was Reggie. He was very outspoken. Very bold. He was a great example." White encountered much criticism following a 1998 speech to the Wisconsin legislature. He presented the biblical position on many problems in society, including greed, sexual immorality, race relations and obscene movies and music. Homosexual rights activists
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Certainly not by me. I've been enjoying your posts and the inner-tension you are describing andworking through. It seems to me that that is how we come to know what we believe. It's not fun or enjoyable for the one going through it, but it does appear to be a necessary step in the process of commitment. The apostles certainly did their share of it throughout their earthly encounter with the man from Nazareth. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me It is 11:30 my time. The post below has 9:17 PM for the time sent -- something I wrote and sent around 7:30, in fact. I have missed a number of posts, entirely, based upon the fact that I have come across a number of posts copied over which were never received -- but there they are in your (you all) posts. Problem. Also - have I been shunned, as they say? jIn a message dated 1/5/2005 9:17:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Subj: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Date: 1/5/2005 9:17:53 PM Pacific Standard TimeFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-to: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent from the Internet In a message dated 1/5/2005 9:23:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I, for one, have no problem in 'gilding the lily'. Mr. Taylor, how I do wish to hear more from you on TT. Everyone not included in this remark please feel free to take a 'shot' at me but, there is but one bona fide theologian on TT.INCOMING !!There are times, during each day ( I think) that you sit at arms length from another very good choice. I have learned much from Jonathan and his ability to express his belief is commensurate of Bill's. I seldom acknowledge Jon's post, but I am one of the first to defend them -- proving that they are read and well received (by me.) There are others, of course, who offer their ideas in a way that are beneficial. Bill knows this from me, but the strength of his expressed faith is his ability to communicate that faith in full view of the biblical message and have it make sense. I personally think BillyT needs to complete his PhD and teach -- seminary, of course. We have all heard of a man's man -- Bill could very well become a teacher's teacher. John
RE: [TruthTalk] AOL problems with receiving mail
No AOL user can receive mail from my [EMAIL PROTECTED] email address. It rejects it as spam due to something about mindspring Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 05.41 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] AOL problems with receiving mail John wrote: It is 11:30 my time. The post below has 9:17 PM for the time sent -- something I wrote and sent around 7:30, in fact. I have missed a number of posts, entirely, based upon the fact that I have come across a number of posts copied over which were never received -- but there they are in your (you all) posts. Problem. Also - have I been shunned, as they say? Hi John. I'm sorry you are having problems receiving mail. AOL is constantly revamping ways to stop spam, and somehow their system is blocking mail from us. The connection from our mail server to AOL is rejected with a notice that some of their users have instructed their software that mail from us is spam. When our connection is rejected, our mail server will keep trying to resend the mail from time to time, and sometimes the AOL mail servers will accept it. This is what explains the delays you have experienced. I have asked to be put on AOL's feedback system to be notified when someone complains of our mail being spam, but thus far I have not received a single notification of a complaint. I would encourage you to complain to AOL about this problem. I think they need to readjust their system. I have problems sometimes sending personal mail to AOL users too because they have marked our IP as a spam concern. They probably use a variety of factors to reject mail, and email from a list like truthtalk probably adds weight to their algorithm and makes mail from TruthTalk even less likely to be allowed through. In the mean time, you could sign up for an email account on yahoo or hotmail, or I could set you up an email account on innglory.org if you like. Or, you can just wait it out and hope AOL fixes the problem. I know of one user who complained to AOL, but he got some South African on the phone who could not really help. He was simply told that our mail server was spamming millions of people, which I know is not true. I could send them our mail logs to prove it, but I don't know anybody there who would receive them and fix this problem. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is 11:30 my time. The post below has 9:17 PM for the time sent -- something I wrote and sent around 7:30, in fact. I have missed a number of posts, entirely, based upon the fact that I have come across a number of posts copied over which were never received -- but there they are in your (you all) posts. Problem. Also - have I been shunned, as they say? j == Possibly your computer is possessed by demons. Either that, or monitor worms. Terry :-)
RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]
Did you know Reggie was MESSIANIC??? Yep...he celebrated Sukkot with some friends of ours for the past two years. A young Messianic, but a Messianic nonetheless. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 07.13To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
David Miller wrote: I have always said it this way. No man on earth has the full revelation of Christ within himself. The fullness of Christ is revealed only through his ekklesia (assembly), as we are in relationship with one another. There are some truths that we will never receive directly through the Spirit or through reading the Bible for ourselves, but God has determined that some truth will be revealed to us through our brothers and sisters who are in Christ. In other words, if I want to know the whole truth, I cannot ignore the community of Christ. Another analogy I often give is that understanding truth is a lot like holding up a coin in the midst of a circle of people. Some people view one side of the coin while others view the other side. We can sit around and fight about how one side is inaccurately representing the description of the coin, or we can lighten up and realize that there are two sides to the coin and some of us cannot view the other side except through our neighbor. When we walk in love toward one another, we will listen to our neighbor and gain a more full knowledge of the coin by doing so. Of course, we must recognize also that some people are not looking at the coin and want to enter into the dialogue and so they make stuff up. Some people too might just want to try and misrepresent the coin for their own personal reasons. And then there are those sincere people who are just not very good at describing what they see. Such makes the whole situation a little less than pristine as we seek to distinguish those who are accurately describing the coin from those who are not. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Excellent, David. We are to learn from one another and to encourage one another. Sometimes some refuse to learn and sometimes some get discouraged instead of encouraged, but at least we are communicating, and to some extent, growing. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] AOL problems with receiving mail
This is why I hate AOL. I have a close friend who has AOL and all my emails to her are returned as spam. We think it is because real spammers spoof with our email address, and once that happens AOL marks your email address and no matter if you write to them about it, you will have constant problems with them. My advice: shun AOL. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 4:41 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] AOL problems with receiving mail John wrote: It is 11:30 my time. The post below has 9:17 PM for the time sent -- something I wrote and sent around 7:30, in fact. I have missed a number of posts, entirely, based upon the fact that I have come across a number of posts copied over which were never received -- but there they are in your (you all) posts. Problem. Also - have I been shunned, as they say? Hi John. I'm sorry you are having problems receiving mail. AOL is constantly revamping ways to stop spam, and somehow their system is blocking mail from us. The connection from our mail server to AOL is rejected with a notice that some of their users have instructed their software that mail from us is spam. When our connection is rejected, our mail server will keep trying to resend the mail from time to time, and sometimes the AOL mail servers will accept it. This is what explains the delays you have experienced. I have asked to be put on AOL's feedback system to be notified when someone complains of our mail being spam, but thus far I have not received a single notification of a complaint. I would encourage you to complain to AOL about this problem. I think they need to readjust their system. I have problems sometimes sending personal mail to AOL users too because they have marked our IP as a spam concern. They probably use a variety of factors to reject mail, and email from a list like truthtalk probably adds weight to their algorithm and makes mail from TruthTalk even less likely to be allowed through. In the mean time, you could sign up for an email account on yahoo or hotmail, or I could set you up an email account on innglory.org if you like. Or, you can just wait it out and hope AOL fixes the problem. I know of one user who complained to AOL, but he got some South African on the phone who could not really help. He was simply told that our mail server was spamming millions of people, which I know is not true. I could send them our mail logs to prove it, but I don't know anybody there who would receive them and fix this problem. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[Fwd: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]]
Did you know Reggie was MESSIANIC??? Yep...he celebrated Sukkot with some friends of ours for the past two years. A young Messianic, but a Messianic nonetheless. Kay === Until a short time ago, I knew nothing about this man. I look up to very few people, simply because sooner or later they all show that they have feet of clay, but I look up to this man. This is what every man should be. A child of God who shows his love for the Father. Terry -
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/6/2005 2:08:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John wrote: The Son is such because He is always the Servant of the Father. John wrote: A son can become a servant on any or several occasions. And a servant can become a son, which is the case in which we find ourselves. Once again, we are discussing this from a human perspective, insisting that human circumstances apply to God. But, even from a human perspective, your conclusion above is poorly thought out. A servant who is not a son already, can never become a son except through adoption. John wrote: The fact that He claimed to be the Son was understood by those of His day as making Himself equal to God. Actually, we should recognize that for the most part, Jesus did not directly claim to be the Son of God. He referred to God as his Father, and this is what was interpreted as his making himself equal to God. Furthermore, it was not just his words, but how he acted and carried himself. You clearly reject scripture for the sake of your own opinion. " And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt 16:17). And what was this revelation? That He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. But, in all fairness, you did say, in the above, that "for the most part ." So I guess that means you can be right no matter what. :-) John wrote: I believe that "Jesus Christ" is a term that always includes this notion " Sonship." I doubt seriously that the biblical writers ever wrote those words, Jesus Christ, without felling the excitement of that first confession, Thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I agree. As Terry pointed out, he was never known as "Jesus Christ" until he was born of Mary, so if this is the term that denotes sonship to you, why would you object to those who see sonship as a functional role he took on by his own personal experience of the incarnation? Because it is an unbiblical conclusion. Was he the Messiah before His birth? Of course. But more than that -- when I said that the first writers would think "Son of God" when they wrote "Jesus Christ," I am assuming a concept, in their minds, that found Christ equal to God. Maybe the problem, here, includes our use of the term "God." That term can be simply a title, as well. Do you believe that "God" is a title for the Great Whatever? If not, what would be your meaning when you say "God?" John wrote: If being a son does no damage to the notion of equality, why would any other function impair that belief, when speaking of the Christ? Being a son does affect the notion of equality in some ways. In a father and son relationship, the father is considered superior and in authority over the son, is he not? I have always viewed my earthly father this way. How about you? Your use of the phrase, "...in some ways ..." allows for the concept "Son = God" to be true. Furthermore, we have Jesus saying, "my father is greater than I." Does this denote any inequality in your mind? Now, here, I am not as well thought out as I should. Bill has addressed this issue as convincingly as anything I have read. I would refer you to that statement. If I were to answer, at this time, I would say that one statement does not counter the other. Scripture cannot cancel scripture. Does Jesus refute the claim of equality (John 5:18) when given the opportunity? Can it be that we have eternal life because we have put our faith in the eternal Son of God? I mean, why did He not simply speak of spiritual life? Why eternal? What if "eternal life" is something that had no beginning -- a provision that has always been a part of God, and we are connected with this life as we partner with the Son? What if "eternal life" is another way of speaking of God.
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]
I did not know he was Messianic, but I did know that he learned Hebrew and I heard him read a passage of Scripture in Hebrewonce. By the way, does celebrating Sukkoth make one Messianic? (... just curious) Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 8:32 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player] Did you know Reggie was MESSIANIC??? Yep...he celebrated Sukkot with some friends of ours for the past two years. A young Messianic, but a Messianic nonetheless. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 07.13To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
I would agree with the comments below. Right on and all that. Seriously. But, sometimes, we are debating the opposite side of the coin. Rather, at times, we are debating whether the coin is a nickle or silver dollar. John In a message dated 1/6/2005 2:29:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John wrote: ... that would have over looked the intrinsic value of shared thinking. I have always said it this way. No man on earth has the full revelation of Christ within himself. The fullness of Christ is revealed only through his ekklesia (assembly), as we are in relationship with one another. There are some truths that we will never receive directly through the Spirit or through reading the Bible for ourselves, but God has determined that some truth will be revealed to us through our brothers and sisters who are in Christ. In other words, if I want to know the whole truth, I cannot ignore the community of Christ. Another analogy I often give is that understanding truth is a lot like holding up a coin in the midst of a circle of people. Some people view one side of the coin while others view the other side. We can sit around and fight about how one side is inaccurately representing the description of the coin, or we can lighten up and realize that there are two sides to the coin and some of us cannot view the other side except through our neighbor. When we walk in love toward one another, we will listen to our neighbor and gain a more full knowledge of the coin by doing so. Of course, we must recognize also that some people are not looking at the coin and want to enter into the dialogue and so they make stuff up. Some people too might just want to try and misrepresent the coin for their own personal reasons. And then there are those sincere people who are just not very good at describing what they see. Such makes the whole situation a little less than pristine as we seek to distinguish those who are accurately describing the coin from those who are not.
RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]
No, it doesn't necessarily. There are other "feast keepers" who are not Messianic. Mr. White kept Sabbath and was Torah observant. Are you thinking of celebrating Sukkot? K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 09.48To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player] I did not know he was Messianic, but I did know that he learned Hebrew and I heard him read a passage of Scripture in Hebrewonce. By the way, does celebrating Sukkoth make one Messianic? (... just curious) Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 8:32 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player] Did you know Reggie was MESSIANIC??? Yep...he celebrated Sukkot with some friends of ours for the past two years. A young Messianic, but a Messianic nonetheless. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 07.13To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]
RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]
Quoted from: http://www.rebeccaatthewell.org/tabernacles.html REGGIE WHITE: Although Reggie has been a born again believer since 1978 and began preaching shortly thereafter it wasn't until 2000 that he became an Ordained Minister of the Torah. As a former NFL Player and team leader Reggie uses his skills to challenge both young and old to serve YHVA in a deeper spiritual walk that only the Torah can bring. He has joined together with a new team, one of like minded believers that know that the Torah walk is the missing link in Christianity today.
RE: [Fwd: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]]
I would say much the same of my fellow Believers in Torah teachers...and DOers, which Reggie was. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 07.45To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [Fwd: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]] Did you know Reggie was MESSIANIC??? Yep...he celebrated Sukkot with some friends of ours for the past two years. A young Messianic, but a Messianic nonetheless. Kay===Until a short time ago, I knew nothing about this man. I look up to very few people, simply because sooner or later they all show that they have feet of clay, but I look up to this man. This is what every man should be. A child of God who shows his love for the Father.Terry -
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
David asks Do such factshave any relevance in discussing the notion ofequality with God? 1. Yeshua, in his earthly service to humanity, was made a little lower than the angels. BT: I fail to see how this statement needs to be handled or understood in a light different than that of the kenosis of Phi 2.5-11. It was in a state of servitude that the Son revealed the heart of his Father."But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren"; "And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Heb 2.9-1; Phi 2.8-11). 2. Yeshua said his father was greater than he was. BT: It was the Son's prerogative to honor the Father, to stand in the gap between humanity and God as mediator of God to man and man to God. For the sake of our weakness he places himself between us and his Father. As I said in my exegesis of Phi 2.5-11, it was/is impossible for humanity to reach the height of God; we have not the ability to make that ascent. God in his love for us sent his Son to be God with us. In Jesus Christ we meet the very embodiment of the sovereignty of God breaking into the world to claim for himself those who without him were lost. In him we havethe coming of Immanuel, God himself condescending to be with us andone of us and for us. And so the Son became a little lower than the angels in coming to us, that he might raise us in his glorious ascensionto the Father. In reference to this statement, John Calvin said something onthe order that Christ was not here comparing the Father's divinity with his own, nor his own human nature with his Father's divine essence, but rather his present state with the heavenly glory to which he was soon going to be received.Taken in the context of its greater narrative in Scripture, I find this statement to be quite satisfactory. And now, David, without undue respect, may I again tell you that Ido not believe your reductionistic approach to deriving truth is always the best, especially when it is the big picture that we are attempting to apprehend? Torrance has argued that there is a comprehensive nature in God's trinitarian self-revelation, "which has an intrinsic significance as a whole that cannot be broken down and specified in terms of its constituent parts, upon whichknowledge of the whole may then be built up; for in the Trinity the three divine Persons are internally interrelated in such a coninherent way that the one Being of God belongs to each of them as it belongs to all of them, and to all of them as it does to each of them." I agree with Torrance; hence I am reluctant to willfully participate in a degradation of the whole ina dogged pursuit of particulars, which cannot be known in themselves as parts. With due respect, in such hunts we are wont to lose the bunny. And so,may I make a suggestion: rather than parse my thoughts into oblivion, how about a definitive statementfrom you on your own teaching on these matters? That, it seems to me, would give us alla comparative basis upon which to draw. God bless you. I will beeagerlyawaiting your presentation. Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Bill, Thank you for sharing your life story along with the photo of yourself and your lovely family - even the dog looks to be special, what breed is he/she? "Paul" is a dry-mouthed Saint Bernard. Hence he is a purebred, going back to a breeding between a Great Perinese and a wet-mouthed, saggy-eyed Saint Bernard. He is ten years old and holding strong, about two years over the life expectancy of a wet-mouth. He weighs in the neighborhood of 180 pounds. He is the best, dumbest dog I've ever had. He wants to be obedient, but always misses the point; for example, he got real bad about jumping out of my pick-up every time I went to town. One day he jumped out and I took off on foot trying to catch him. Well, he was on the scent of a trail and ignored my attempts to gain his attention. After about a mile of chasing him through people's yards and down their alleys, I caught him and gave him a fairly significant chewing out and a couple kicks to the butt. When we got to the pick up I told him to get in there and stay and never jump out of my pick up again. But he misunderstood me. From that day on he has refused to jump into the back of my truck. O he still wants to ride along, don't get me wrong, but instead of jumping in the back like he used to, he puts his paws on the tailgate and looks at me and barks. If I am going to take him along I have to grab his rearend and hoist him up into the box. Did he learn to quit jumping out? No, I have to chain him up, once I get him in. O but he loves it andis so happy becausethinks he's making me happy. What a stupid, good dog he is! Now if I could onlyjoin the adoring throng at your 'theological feet' .. we might have a semblance of unity on TT but I don't believe we would be unified around the truth of God's Word. No one needs to feel compelled to sit at my feet, Judy. Nor do I think any are -- just a couple complements from some good friends and brothers in Christ. I'm still trying to figure how you have one dimensionalized God the Father and following the incarnation God the Son then make it sound so good. Well, I do not believe I have "one dimensionalized God the Father." And following the incarnation of God the Son IS as good as it sounds. I invite you to follow along and experience him with us :) I would call John's inner tension a problem withanxiety and a red flag which indicates there is a problem. How do you figure this is part of the 'normal Christian life?' Grace and Peace, Judyt Any time we replace old beliefs with new ones there is the potential of inner tension,a trickle-down effect which takes place as other, yet unchanged beliefs are challenged by the new. This I believe is what John is experiencing/expressing. Hence it does not necessarily have anything to do with some sort of God-sentanxiety on John's behalf, nor need it beinterpreted as "red flags" by you; itis just the normal process Christians go through when taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. Blessings, Bill On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 06:24:18 -0700 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Certainly not by me. I've been enjoying your posts and the inner-tension you are describing andworking through. It seems to me that that is how we come to know what we believe. It's not fun or enjoyable for the one going through it, but it does appear to be a necessary step in the process of commitment. The apostles certainly did their share of it throughout their earthly encounter with the man from Nazareth. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me It is 11:30 my time. The post below has 9:17 PM for the time sent -- something I wrote and sent around 7:30, in fact. I have missed a number of posts, entirely, based upon the fact that I have come across a number of posts copied over which were never received -- but there they are in your (you all) posts. Problem. Also - have I been shunned, as they say? jIn a message dated 1/5/2005 9:17:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Subj: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Date: 1/5/2005 9:17:53 PM Pacific Standard TimeFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-to: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo:
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
David Miller wrote: And a servant can become a son, which is the case in which we find ourselves. John wrote: ... your conclusion above is poorly thought out. Unnecessary ad hominem comment. John wrote: A servant who is not a son already, can never become a son except through adoption. You apparently misunderstood my post, because we are in agreement. We find ourselves to be sons of God through adoption, but Yeshua was and is the only begotten son of God. He is unique. David Miller wrote: Actually, we should recognize that for the most part, Jesus did not directly claim to be the Son of God. He referred to God as his Father, and this is what was interpreted as his making himself equal to God. Furthermore, it was not just his words, but how he acted and carried himself. John wrote: You clearly reject scripture for the sake of your own opinion. Unnecessary ad hominem comment. John wrote: And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven (Matt 16:17). And what was this revelation? That He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. But, in all fairness, you did say, in the above, that for the most part . My point was that generally speaking, for the most part, Jesus did not DIRECTLY profess to be the son of God. This is an important aspect of humility, and also an important legal aspect of allowing witnesses to speak. In this example you offer, it is Peter, not Jesus, who makes the claim that he was the Son of God. Do a search on son of God in your favorite Bible program and a search on son of Man. Look at who is speaking in such situations. You will find a few passages where we can understand that Jesus did profess to be the Son of God, but they will be about as often as I have professed to be a prophet on this list. For the most part, others raised the issue, not Jesus himself. Jesus did not deny it, and he sometimes affirmed it, but the claim was made primarily by others based upon how Jesus carried himself, and how he related publicly to God as his father. David Miller wrote: As Terry pointed out, he was never known as Jesus Christ until he was born of Mary, so if this is the term that denotes sonship to you, why would you object to those who see sonship as a functional role he took on by his own personal experience of the incarnation? John wrote: Because it is an unbiblical conclusion. It is? If so, then why has nobody on the list been able to produce one Bible verse that would disprove the idea? John wrote: Was he the Messiah before His birth? Of course. Au contraire. I think, of course NOT. Messiah means anointed. The term Messiah refers to his being anointed as a human being. How can God anoint himself in eternity past? He first had to become human before such a word would apply to him. Are you prepared now to argue for an eternal Messiah doctrine? It is consideration of this word Messiah and the fact that Messiah = Son of God in the mind of the New Testament characters that leads me to lean toward Judy's perspective on this eternal sonship doctrine. If you can produce a verse that applies this Messiah concept to eternity past, that may help put this question to rest for me. John wrote: But more than that -- when I said that the first writers would think Son of God when they wrote Jesus Christ, I am assuming a concept, in their minds, that found Christ equal to God. I agree that Yeshua Ha Mashciach (Jesus the Anointed or Jesus the Messiah or Jesus Christ) carried the idea of Yeshua ben YHVH (Jesus son of God). This is a primary reason that I view Judy's position as a valid consideration. On the other hand, I do not see much on the equality with God issue until much later in Christian History. A son is equal to his father in some ways, but not equal to him in other ways. The same consideration holds true with the husband and wife relationship. John wrote: Maybe the problem, here, includes our use of the term God.That term can be simply a title, as well. Do you believe that God is a title for the Great Whatever? If not, what would be your meaning when you say God? Usually I am thinking the Hebrew Elohim when I use the word God, but if only the father is meant, then I tend to think YHVH. John wrote: Your use of the phrase, ...in some ways ... allows for the concept Son = God to be true. Yes it does, in some ways. I think discussing the ways in which it does or does not lies at the heart of the discussion of this topic. I read Bill's later post and will be answering it in the way he has asked when I find some time. It might be a day or two... or maybe more. I have guests in town staying at my home, and I am setting aside some time to preach on campus, etc. This tsunami incident has given me some great preaching material. It is really getting the attention of the students.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
David, In a free moment down the road will you speak a few words to the recent discovery in, I believe it was, Montana, where a T-Rex was found and discovered to have been preserved with blood still in its composition? Are you familiar with this? The limited information I have received on the subject leads me to a conclusion that this particular dinosaur is not nearly as old as evolutions want us to believe overall. Also, I have heard, I believe it was on CBS, that not a single wild animal died in the tsunami; they all fled to higher ground prior to its arrival. In the ruins none have been found. I find this to be absolutely astonishing. What a grand illustration of the glory of God in the midst of utter destruction! Had he given humans this profound sense of awareness, we most assuredly would have used it not to his glory but to our own demise. His desire is that we look to him to address our needs, even when those needs need to be met in wake of tsunamis. Blessings, Bill - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me David Miller wrote: And a servant can become a son, which is the case in which we find ourselves. John wrote: ... your conclusion above is poorly thought out. Unnecessary ad hominem comment. John wrote: A servant who is not a son already, can never become a son except through adoption. You apparently misunderstood my post, because we are in agreement. We find ourselves to be sons of God through adoption, but Yeshua was and is the only begotten son of God. He is unique. David Miller wrote: Actually, we should recognize that for the most part, Jesus did not directly claim to be the Son of God. He referred to God as his Father, and this is what was interpreted as his making himself equal to God. Furthermore, it was not just his words, but how he acted and carried himself. John wrote: You clearly reject scripture for the sake of your own opinion. Unnecessary ad hominem comment. John wrote: And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven (Matt 16:17). And what was this revelation? That He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. But, in all fairness, you did say, in the above, that for the most part . My point was that generally speaking, for the most part, Jesus did not DIRECTLY profess to be the son of God. This is an important aspect of humility, and also an important legal aspect of allowing witnesses to speak. In this example you offer, it is Peter, not Jesus, who makes the claim that he was the Son of God. Do a search on son of God in your favorite Bible program and a search on son of Man. Look at who is speaking in such situations. You will find a few passages where we can understand that Jesus did profess to be the Son of God, but they will be about as often as I have professed to be a prophet on this list. For the most part, others raised the issue, not Jesus himself. Jesus did not deny it, and he sometimes affirmed it, but the claim was made primarily by others based upon how Jesus carried himself, and how he related publicly to God as his father. David Miller wrote: As Terry pointed out, he was never known as Jesus Christ until he was born of Mary, so if this is the term that denotes sonship to you, why would you object to those who see sonship as a functional role he took on by his own personal experience of the incarnation? John wrote: Because it is an unbiblical conclusion. It is? If so, then why has nobody on the list been able to produce one Bible verse that would disprove the idea? John wrote: Was he the Messiah before His birth? Of course. Au contraire. I think, of course NOT. Messiah means anointed. The term Messiah refers to his being anointed as a human being. How can God anoint himself in eternity past? He first had to become human before such a word would apply to him. Are you prepared now to argue for an eternal Messiah doctrine? It is consideration of this word Messiah and the fact that Messiah = Son of God in the mind of the New Testament characters that leads me to lean toward Judy's perspective on this eternal sonship doctrine. If you can produce a verse that applies this Messiah concept to eternity past, that may help put this question to rest for me. John wrote: But more than that -- when I said that the first writers would think Son of God when they wrote Jesus Christ, I am assuming a concept, in their minds, that found Christ equal to God. I agree that Yeshua Ha Mashciach (Jesus the Anointed or Jesus the Messiah or Jesus Christ) carried the idea of Yeshua ben YHVH (Jesus son of God). This is a primary reason that I view Judy's position as a valid
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Any time we replace old beliefs with new ones there is the potential of inner tension,a trickle-down effect which takes place as other, yet unchanged beliefs are challenged by the new. This I believe is what John is experiencing/expressing. Hence it does not necessarily have anything to do with some sort of God-sentanxiety on John's behalf, nor need it beinterpreted as red flags by you; itis just the normal process Christians go through when taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.Blessings, Bill Bill, my personal experience (FWIW) has been that when I have anxiety or tension over a new concept it is because I am trying to incorporate something that is not of the Spirit of God. Thus the concept and the Spirit are at war; conflicted. Whenever I come into true revelation of a new concept I experience peace and joy. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Bill, my personal experience (FWIW) has been that when I have anxiety or tension over a new concept it is because I am trying to incorporate something that is not of the Spirit of God. Thus the concept and the Spirit are at war; conflicted. Whenever I come into true revelation of a new concept I experience peace and joy. Izzy PS Its like the difference between trying to place a piece in a puzzle that just doesnt fit, and one that does.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Well, you are truly blessed. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:56 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Any time we replace old beliefs with new ones there is the potential of inner tension,a trickle-down effect which takes place as other, yet unchanged beliefs are challenged by the new. This I believe is what John is experiencing/expressing. Hence it does not necessarily have anything to do with some sort of God-sentanxiety on John's behalf, nor need it beinterpreted as "red flags" by you; itis just the normal process Christians go through when taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.Blessings, Bill Bill, my personal experience (FWIW) has been that when I have anxiety or tension over a new concept it is because I am trying to incorporate something that is not of the Spirit of God. Thus the concept and the Spirit are at war; conflicted. Whenever I come into true revelation of a new concept I experience peace and joy. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
I have a feeling you haven't put many puzzles together :) Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:08 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Bill, my personal experience (FWIW) has been that when I have anxiety or tension over a new concept it is because I am trying to incorporate something that is not of the Spirit of God. Thus the concept and the Spirit are at war; conflicted. Whenever I come into true revelation of a new concept I experience peace and joy. Izzy PS Its like the difference between trying to place a piece in a puzzle that just doesnt fit, and one that does.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Bill, perhaps we DO have this profound sense of awareness when we are truly plugged into His Spirit. Izzy Yeah, Izzy, maybe. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 11:52 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:42 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me David, In a free moment down the road will you speak a few words to the recent discovery in, I believe it was, Montana, where a T-Rex was found and discovered to have been preserved with blood still in its composition? Are you familiar with this? The limited information I have received on the subject leads me to a conclusion that this particular "dinosaur" is not nearly as old as evolutions want us to believe overall. Also, I have heard, I believe it was on CBS, that not a single wild animal died in the tsunami; they all fled to higher ground prior to its arrival. In the ruins none have been found. I find this to be absolutely astonishing. What a grand illustration of the glory of God in the midst of utter destruction! Had he given humans this profound sense of awareness, we most assuredly would have used it not to his glory but to our own demise. His desire is that we look to him to address our needs, even when those needs need to be met in wake of tsunamis.Blessings,Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Correction: "coinherent" -- sorry for any confusion :) Bill - Original Message - From: Bill Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:09 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me David asks Do such factshave any relevance in discussing the notion ofequality with God? 1. Yeshua, in his earthly service to humanity, was made a little lower than the angels. BT: I fail to see how this statement needs to be handled or understood in a light different than that of the kenosis of Phi 2.5-11. It was in a state of servitude that the Son revealed the heart of his Father."But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren"; "And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Heb 2.9-1; Phi 2.8-11). 2. Yeshua said his father was greater than he was. BT: It was the Son's prerogative to honor the Father, to stand in the gap between humanity and God as mediator of God to man and man to God. For the sake of our weakness he places himself between us and his Father. As I said in my exegesis of Phi 2.5-11, it was/is impossible for humanity to reach the height of God; we have not the ability to make that ascent. God in his love for us sent his Son to be God with us. In Jesus Christ we meet the very embodiment of the sovereignty of God breaking into the world to claim for himself those who without him were lost. In him we havethe coming of Immanuel, God himself condescending to be with us andone of us and for us. And so the Son became a little lower than the angels in coming to us, that he might raise us in his glorious ascensionto the Father. In reference to this statement, John Calvin said something onthe order that Christ was not here comparing the Father's divinity with his own, nor his own human nature with his Father's divine essence, but rather his present state with the heavenly glory to which he was soon going to be received.Taken in the context of its greater narrative in Scripture, I find this statement to be quite satisfactory. And now, David, without undue respect, may I again tell you that Ido not believe your reductionistic approach to deriving truth is always the best, especially when it is the big picture that we are attempting to apprehend? Torrance has argued that there is a comprehensive nature in God's trinitarian self-revelation, "which has an intrinsic significance as a whole that cannot be broken down and specified in terms of its constituent parts, upon whichknowledge of the whole may then be built up; for in the Trinity the three divine Persons are internally interrelated in such acoinherent way that the one Being of God belongs to each of them as it belongs to all of them, and to all of them as it does to each of them." I agree with Torrance; hence I am reluctant to willfully participate in a degradation of the whole ina dogged pursuit of particulars, which cannot be known in themselves as parts. With due respect, in such hunts we are wont to lose the bunny. And so,may I make a suggestion: rather than parse my thoughts into oblivion, how about a definitive statementfrom you on your own teaching on these matters? That, it seems to me, would give us alla comparative basis upon which to draw. God bless you. I will beeagerlyawaiting your presentation. Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/6/2005 8:33:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Certainly not by me. I've been enjoying your posts and the inner-tension you are describing and working through. It seems to me that that is how we come to know what we believe. It's not fun or enjoyable for the one going through it, but it does appear to be a necessary step in the process of commitment. The apostles certainly did their share of it throughout their earthly encounter with the man from Nazareth. Bill As you might expect, I am one who not only speaks as if he knows what he is talking about, I actually enjoy knowing that which I believe. This business about Sonship, in spite of the fact that Izzy sees no point in this discussion (not that that is a bad thing) is important, as I am beginning to see, and the testament to that importance -- not fully understood by me --- is complicated. I just re-read my post looking for those pesty grammatical issues and spelling, and I am not sure this last sentense catches what I meanto say. The testamt to the importance of this Sonship issue is found in the complication of the teaching it seems to effect nearly all that I believe. I am not trying to learn the right things to say in answer to questioning -- I am trying to learn the "right" thing to believe. If I have that, I can figure out the answers. Especailly on this matter -- your statements even critical. Thanks for your continue participation John John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/6/2005 8:33:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Possibly your computer is possessed by demons. Either that, or monitor worms. Terry :-) Some will think they are the same -- but my computer is infected; just don't have time to get it fixed. My work is great, right now. Jd
[TruthTalk] newbie
Hi all,I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie
Re: [Fwd: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]]
In a message dated 1/6/2005 8:33:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did you know Reggie was MESSIANIC??? Yep...he celebrated Sukkot with some friends of ours for the past two years. A young Messianic, but a Messianic nonetheless. Kay I saw a reference to Reggie's increasing "confusion" as a religious man in the later years of his life. I love it. This was spoken by some ingrate who takes his orders from the top and will say whatever "they" tell him to say. Such is the new macho sports writer on ESPN. In this case, anxious to make a disciple of Christ unimportant in that most important regard. I see it as a move in the right direction FOR REGGIE. There is no doubt in my mind that his faith was increasingly stronger. John
Re: [TruthTalk] newbie
Welcome to the most dysfunctional group on the web! I'm sure you will be stretched and strained, just like the rest of us. As I said, welcome to the fight, err debate, ummm, discussion, uh what exactly do we call this fiasco guys?! Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 19:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] newbie Hi all,I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] newbie
Cool, Debbie, welcome aboard. We're glad to meet your acquaintance and happy you are here. Bill Taylor - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 5:39 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] newbie Hi all,I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie
RE: [Fwd: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]]
Yea, wellya gotta take what comes with the job! Some of us, though, refuse to do what "they" tell us to do... As he learned hayesod (the foundation), you're right...his faith grew stronger. I've seen it happen more times than I can count. Then again, I'm generally surrounded by Messi's! :) Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 19.32To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Fwd: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]]In a message dated 1/6/2005 8:33:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did you know Reggie was MESSIANIC???Yep...he celebrated Sukkot with some friends of ours for the past two years. A young Messianic, but a Messianic nonetheless. KayI saw a reference to Reggie's increasing "confusion" as a religious man in the later years of his life. I love it. This was spoken by some ingrate who takes his orders from the top and will say whatever "they" tell him to say. Such is the new macho sports writer on ESPN. In this case, anxious to make a disciple of Christ unimportant in that most important regard. I see it as a move in the right direction FOR REGGIE. There is no doubt in my mind that his faith was increasingly stronger. John
RE: [TruthTalk] newbie
Welcome, DebbieI can spank Jeff for you if you want... Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff PowersSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 19.26To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] newbie Welcome to the most dysfunctional group on the web! I'm sure you will be stretched and strained, just like the rest of us. As I said, welcome to the fight, err debate, ummm, discussion, uh what exactly do we call this fiasco guys?! Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 19:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] newbie Hi all,I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] newbie
Debbie Sawczak wrote: Hi all, I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie === Welcome Debbie. Hope you find it worthwhile. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
I actually have friends from all walks of faithsome with no walk at all. I figure they'll get there, someday. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Dave HansenSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 02.48To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2DAVEH: AhI doubt that will be a problem now, Kay. I believe TT has matured a bit in the recent past. I would think that if anybody has a problem with you associating with Mormons or even saying a few nice things about them, it would be more their problem than yours.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My work is great, right now. Jd Praise the Lord.
RE: [TruthTalk] newbie
Welcome, Debbie! How did you learn about this rascally bunch? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:39 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] newbie Hi all, I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie
RE: [TruthTalk] newbie
Do it for me, Kay! J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:41 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] newbie Welcome, DebbieI can spank Jeff for you if you want... Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff Powers Sent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 19.26 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] newbie Welcome to the most dysfunctional group on the web! I'm sure you will be stretched and strained, just like the rest of us. As I said, welcome to the fight, err debate, ummm, discussion, uh what exactly do we call this fiasco guys?! Jeff Life makes warriors of us all. To emerge the victors, we must arm ourselves with the most potent of weapons. That weapon is prayer. --Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 19:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] newbie Hi all, I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie
RE: [TruthTalk] newbie
You got it, Iz. I'll have Slade sit on him... Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 19.48To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] newbie Do it for me, Kay! J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:41 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] newbie Welcome, DebbieI can spank Jeff for you if you want... Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff PowersSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 19.26To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] newbie Welcome to the most dysfunctional group on the web! I'm sure you will be stretched and strained, just like the rest of us. As I said, welcome to the fight, err debate, ummm, discussion, uh what exactly do we call this fiasco guys?! Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 19:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] newbie Hi all,I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie
[TruthTalk] Whats next?
Sorry folks, I can't help it! This cracked me up!!! Toilet Brush Warning Wins Consumer Award Thu Jan 6, 4:50 PM ET Strange News - AP By DAVID N. GOODMAN, Associated Press Writer DETROIT - The sign on the toilet brush says it best: "Do not use for personal hygiene." That admonition was the winner of an anti-lawsuit group's contest for the wackiest consumer warning label of the year. The sponsor, Michigan Lawsuit Abuse Watch, says the goal is "to reveal how lawsuits, and concern about lawsuits, have created a need for common sense warnings on products." The $500 first prize went to Ed Gyetvai, of Oldcastle, Ontario, who submitted the toilet-brush label. A $250 second prize went to Matt Johnson, of Naperville, Ill., for a label on a children's scooter that said, "This product moves when used." A $100 third prize went to Ann Marie Taylor, of Camden, S.C., who submitted a warning from a digital thermometer that said, "Once used rectally, the thermometer should not be used orally." This year's contest coincides with a drive by President Bush (news - web sites) and congressional Republicans to put caps and other limits on jury awards in liability cases. "Warning labels are a sign of our lawsuit-plagued times," said group President Robert Dorigo Jones. "From the moment we raise our head in the morning off pillows that bear those famous Do Not Remove warnings, to when we drop back in bed at night, we are overwhelmed with warnings." The leader of a group that opposes the campaign to limit lawsuits admits that while some warning labels may seem stupid, even dumb warnings can do good. "There are many cases of warning labels saving lives," said Joanne Doroshow, executive director of the Center for Justice and Democracy in New York. "It's much better to be very cautious ... than to be afraid of being made fun of by a tort reform group." The Wacky Warning Label Contest is in its eighth year.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/6/2005 10:11:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You apparently misunderstood my post, because we are in agreement. We find ourselves to be sons of God through adoption, but Yeshua was and is the only begotten son of God. He is unique. No, we do not agree at all. If Jesus was not the Son before the incarnation, the virgin birth was His rite of adoption ... according to you, He became something he was not - a Son. He existed (not as a son) before the virgin birth, therefore, his Sonship was an adoptive process. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/6/2005 10:11:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John wrote: ... your conclusion above is poorly thought out. Unnecessary ad hominem comment. David, stop with "ad hominem" already. I spoke what I truly believe. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] newbie
nanner, nanner, nanner, first ya gotta catch me! And just who decides the rules of these spankings? I'lltry toilet brushes for $200. "What new warning labels will be on toilet brushes in the near future?" answer: "Not for personal hygiene." Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 19:49 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] newbie You got it, Iz. I'll have Slade sit on him... Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 19.48To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] newbie Do it for me, Kay! J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:41 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] newbie Welcome, DebbieI can spank Jeff for you if you want... Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff PowersSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 19.26To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] newbie Welcome to the most dysfunctional group on the web! I'm sure you will be stretched and strained, just like the rest of us. As I said, welcome to the fight, err debate, ummm, discussion, uh what exactly do we call this fiasco guys?! Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 19:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] newbie Hi all,I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie
RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
Hehehehe...only thing that worries me is this sentence: This year's contest coincides with a drive by President Bush (news - web sites) and congressional Republicans to put caps and other limits on jury awards in liability cases. (Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff PowersSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 19.54To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] Whats next? Sorry folks, I can't help it! This cracked me up!!! Toilet Brush Warning Wins Consumer Award Thu Jan 6, 4:50 PM ET Strange News - AP By DAVID N. GOODMAN, Associated Press Writer DETROIT - The sign on the toilet brush says it best: "Do not use for personal hygiene." That admonition was the winner of an anti-lawsuit group's contest for the wackiest consumer warning label of the year. The sponsor, Michigan Lawsuit Abuse Watch, says the goal is "to reveal how lawsuits, and concern about lawsuits, have created a need for common sense warnings on products." The $500 first prize went to Ed Gyetvai, of Oldcastle, Ontario, who submitted the toilet-brush label. A $250 second prize went to Matt Johnson, of Naperville, Ill., for a label on a children's scooter that said, "This product moves when used." A $100 third prize went to Ann Marie Taylor, of Camden, S.C., who submitted a warning from a digital thermometer that said, "Once used rectally, the thermometer should not be used orally." This year's contest coincides with a drive by President Bush (news - web sites) and congressional Republicans to put caps and other limits on jury awards in liability cases. "Warning labels are a sign of our lawsuit-plagued times," said group President Robert Dorigo Jones. "From the moment we raise our head in the morning off pillows that bear those famous Do Not Remove warnings, to when we drop back in bed at night, we are overwhelmed with warnings." The leader of a group that opposes the campaign to limit lawsuits admits that while some warning labels may seem stupid, even dumb warnings can do good. "There are many cases of warning labels saving lives," said Joanne Doroshow, executive director of the Center for Justice and Democracy in New York. "It's much better to be very cautious ... than to be afraid of being made fun of by a tort reform group." The Wacky Warning Label Contest is in its eighth year.
RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
(Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks. Kay Thats exactly why we need some kind of caps. I live too close to East St. Louis, the capitol of Hit the Jackpot claims that have driven doctors out of the areathey cant afford the soaring medical malpractice insurance. (You should see the shyster lawyer TV ads we have here! Did something bad happen to you or your loved one? Well SOMEONE should PAY!!!) Now the welfare folks come across the river to the St. Louis hospitals in search of someone to sue. Its illegal for the hospitals to turn them away. And if they are on Medicare, the govt caps what the hospital gets reimbursed for their care (often its a big loss). Our government also has a law stating that hospitals must provide translators for non-English speaking patients, yet the cost is not reimbursed by the govt.! St. Louis has the largest Bosnian refugee population in America, plus lots of Hispanics, etc. They are often on welfare, plus the hospital must pay for a translator. Its a huge loss. No wonder so many inner-city hospitals have had to just fold up. St. Louis hospital for the indigent folded a few years ago, and now the burden is on St. Louis University Hospital and Barnes Hospital mostly. Our SLU hospital auxiliary uses some of its funds to pay for translators of whatever language just to help keep the hospital in business. The corrupt ones are ruining medical care for the rest of us. Thats why we need to support reform in this area. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/6/2005 10:11:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John wrote: " And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt 16:17). And what was this revelation? That He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. But, in all fairness, you did say, in the above, that "for the most part ." My point was that generally speaking, for the most part, Jesus did not DIRECTLY profess to be the son of God. "Generally speaking, for the most part .." are back to back admissions that there were times when He did claim to be the Son of God. You need to understand that this is a very serious issue to me -- why you want to hedge on accepting that Jesus, Himself, did claim to be the Son of God is more than distressing to me. Accepting that claim is a mark of being a child of God -- something you know full. It goes directly to the center of our faith. Denial of such is a sign of spiritual death. Why you argue this point is, as a child of God, is beyond me and most certainly a poorly thought out response, on your part. His humility is not expressed in avoiding to make the claim. Rather, it is expressed in His willingness to empty Himself and become like us. Please tell me that you know that Christ made this claim for Himself -- I know that you accept it. Mystified John
RE: [TruthTalk] newbie
One swat for everyyear of age.you're in big trouble. I can run faster than you Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff PowersSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 20.05To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] newbie nanner, nanner, nanner, first ya gotta catch me! And just who decides the rules of these spankings? I'lltry toilet brushes for $200. "What new warning labels will be on toilet brushes in the near future?" answer: "Not for personal hygiene." Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov
Re: [TruthTalk] newbie
In a message dated 1/6/2005 4:48:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Debbie Sawczak wrote: Hi all, I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just to listen for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith. Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie ===Welcome Debbie. Hope you find it worthwhile. Terry Hi Debbie -- you may have already noticed that ruffled feathers abound on this forum, but so does the gift of brotherhood, for the most part. A worthy place to be. Welcome John Smithson
RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
(Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks.Kay PS I forgot to mention, juries dont even usually get to the point of making a judgment. Most medical malpractice suits are settled out of court to avoid the soaring costs. The lawyers for the injured patients know this, and their whole strategy is just to get an out of court settlementits almost guaranteed. All you have to do is file a ridiculous claim and youll get several thousand dollars for it as a buy-out by the medical lawyers to avoid having to go through the whole trial. Its such a scam! I was on a jury this past spring that had this exact thing happen. It all adds up to impossible legal fees for no valid reason, and it harms you and me because we are losing medical care everywhere. It costs millions of dollars/year (from insurance and the govt, which we also pay) because doctors must order all kinds of tests as a defense in case there is a claim against them for some reasonits called defensive medicine. This is why insurance costs are going through the roof. Do you like paying exorbitant insurance rates??? (I dont!) Izzy
[TruthTalk] As the world turns
We had a missionary speak at our home church meeting on Tuesday evening. He is a local boy, home for a rest and to report to his supporters. He started out carrying/dragging a cross from town to town, speaking where he was welcome, stopping along the road to tell what God had done for him and others to anyone who was interested. A while back, he felt the Lord calling him to Africa, and now he carries a cross there, doing what he did here, but with much better results. He said over here people wave from their cars as they go by. Over there they walk, and take time to talk. The cross creates great interest and great opportunity to share the Gospel. He shared much with us about starting churches in three towns, and turning them over to local pastors, but the things that stick in my mind most is some of the figures he offered. We talked over supper about the great loss of life in Indonesia, and he agreed that this was a terrible thing, but said that in Africa, more people than that die of starvation every month, and no one seems to care. In the city where he rents a home, unemployment is seventy percent. He said that it was hard to get people to allow him to pray for them, because they thought that they had to pay him to do it, and they had no money. He came to find out that the witch doctors always charge people to pray for them or offer a sacrifice for them. He told how one witch doctor was ranting and raving while he tried to preach, evidently upset that he was working her corner, and he told how a brand new believer went to her and laid hands on her to pray for her. He said the woman (witch doctor) fell down, foaming at the mouth and after the new believer prayed over her, she became calm and accepted Christ. He told how wide open these idol worshiping, ancestor worshiping people are to the Gospel and asked us to pray for more workers in His part of Africa. He says that ninety-six percent of all preachers are in the USA, while most of Africa still lives in darkness. He works among the people of South Africa, and surprisingly, he says that it is not all black and white. He says that there are as many people from India among the Zulus as there are Zulus. If you have read thus far, I am writing this to ask for prayer for this man. His name is Ben King. He has been given 140,000 pounds of rice by a man in Georgia. Another man has offered to pay the freight bill to get it to Africa. There has been a four year drought there and this food is badly needed. He wants us to pray that it will not be taken or taxed by the government there when he arrives with it. I think that this is something them and us can unite on. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] newbie
In a message dated 1/6/2005 4:36:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Welcome to the most dysfunctional group on the web! I'm sure you will be stretched and strained, just like the rest of us. As I said, welcome to the fight, err debate, ummm, discussion, uh what exactly do we call this fiasco guys?! Jeff He's just funn'en, Debbie. He loves it here - most masochists do. But Jeff and his buds have contributed much that is good. All groups fight -- this is the only one I have seen, where there is an ebb and flow that speaks of life in the Son. Some have had to make resolutions that will help add to the positive side of life on this list. JD
RE: [TruthTalk] As the world turns
Very sad about the starvation in Africa, Terry. But it isnt because nobody cares. Its because no one can get relief past the corrupt, incompetent governments running such backwards nations. Its such a crime, and my only hope for a solution is the Second Coming. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:19 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] As the world turns We had a missionary speak at our home church meeting on Tuesday evening. He is a local boy, home for a rest and to report to his supporters. He started out carrying/dragging a cross from town to town, speaking where he was welcome, stopping along the road to tell what God had done for him and others to anyone who was interested. A while back, he felt the Lord calling him to Africa, and now he carries a cross there, doing what he did here, but with much better results. He said over here people wave from their cars as they go by. Over there they walk, and take time to talk. The cross creates great interest and great opportunity to share the Gospel. He shared much with us about starting churches in three towns, and turning them over to local pastors, but the things that stick in my mind most is some of the figures he offered. We talked over supper about the great loss of life in Indonesia, and he agreed that this was a terrible thing, but said that in Africa, more people than that die of starvation every month, and no one seems to care. In the city where he rents a home, unemployment is seventy percent. He said that it was hard to get people to allow him to pray for them, because they thought that they had to pay him to do it, and they had no money. He came to find out that the witch doctors always charge people to pray for them or offer a sacrifice for them. He told how one witch doctor was ranting and raving while he tried to preach, evidently upset that he was working her corner, and he told how a brand new believer went to her and laid hands on her to pray for her. He said the woman (witch doctor) fell down, foaming at the mouth and after the new believer prayed over her, she became calm and accepted Christ. He told how wide open these idol worshiping, ancestor worshiping people are to the Gospel and asked us to pray for more workers in His part of Africa. He says that ninety-six percent of all preachers are in the USA, while most of Africa still lives in darkness. He works among the people of South Africa, and surprisingly, he says that it is not all black and white. He says that there are as many people from India among the Zulus as there are Zulus. If you have read thus far, I am writing this to ask for prayer for this man. His name is Ben King. He has been given 140,000 pounds of rice by a man in Georgia. Another man has offered to pay the freight bill to get it to Africa. There has been a four year drought there and this food is badly needed. He wants us to pray that it will not be taken or taxed by the government there when he arrives with it. I think that this is something them and us can unite on. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
Maybe if the doctors didn't mess up, they wouldn't get sued. The standard for medical malpractice claims are VERY high, so it's hard to win a lawsuitthat means there has to be some egregious error made by the doctor in the first place before a suit can be brought forth andwon. Makes me wonder about the doctors you've got out there. So glad I use alternative medicine :) Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 20.19To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? (Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks. Kay Thats exactly why we need some kind of caps. I live too close to East St. Louis, the capitol of Hit the Jackpot claims that have driven doctors out of the areathey cant afford the soaring medical malpractice insurance. (You should see the shyster lawyer TV ads we have here! Did something bad happen to you or your loved one? Well SOMEONE should PAY!!!) Now the welfare folks come across the river to the St. Louis hospitals in search of someone to sue. Its illegal for the hospitals to turn them away. And if they are on Medicare, the govt caps what the hospital gets reimbursed for their care (often its a big loss). Our government also has a law stating that hospitals must provide translators for non-English speaking patients, yet the cost is not reimbursed by the govt.! St. Louis has the largest Bosnian refugee population in America, plus lots of Hispanics, etc. They are often on welfare, plus the hospital must pay for a translator. Its a huge loss. No wonder so many inner-city hospitals have had to just fold up. St. Louis hospital for the indigent folded a few years ago, and now the burden is on St. Louis University Hospital and Barnes Hospital mostly. Our SLU hospital auxiliary uses some of its funds to pay for translators of whatever language just to help keep the hospital in business. The corrupt ones are ruining medical care for the rest of us. Thats why we need to support reform in this area. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
I don't pay for insurance. The easy fix is...refuse to settle. Go to trial and if the claim is truly meritless, it will lose. But, in my opinion, the doctor who removes the wrong kidney should be suedand lose his license. Would it be Biblical to ask for his kidney in exchangeeye for an eye...tooth for a tooth...kidney for a kidney:) Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 20.26To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? (Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks.Kay PS I forgot to mention, juries dont even usually get to the point of making a judgment. Most medical malpractice suits are settled out of court to avoid the soaring costs. The lawyers for the injured patients know this, and their whole strategy is just to get an out of court settlementits almost guaranteed. All you have to do is file a ridiculous claim and youll get several thousand dollars for it as a buy-out by the medical lawyers to avoid having to go through the whole trial. Its such a scam! I was on a jury this past spring that had this exact thing happen. It all adds up to impossible legal fees for no valid reason, and it harms you and me because we are losing medical care everywhere. It costs millions of dollars/year (from insurance and the govt, which we also pay) because doctors must order all kinds of tests as a defense in case there is a claim against them for some reasonits called defensive medicine. This is why insurance costs are going through the roof. Do you like paying exorbitant insurance rates??? (I dont!) Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/6/2005 4:47:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My work is great, right now. Jd Praise the Lord. A big big amen to that. There is no other reason. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
Kay, just wait til Slade sees this. We have discussed this several times and the passage does not mean a literal eye for eye, etc., What it means is fair and just compensation to the injured person. ie: a tooth is worth $30, an eye $25,000, a kidney $1,000,000. Hey don't hold me to these numbers, I picked em out of the air! But I think the example is obvious. Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 20:34 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? I don't pay for insurance. The easy fix is...refuse to settle. Go to trial and if the claim is truly meritless, it will lose. But, in my opinion, the doctor who removes the wrong kidney should be suedand lose his license. Would it be Biblical to ask for his kidney in exchangeeye for an eye...tooth for a tooth...kidney for a kidney:) Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 20.26To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? (Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks.Kay PS I forgot to mention, juries dont even usually get to the point of making a judgment. Most medical malpractice suits are settled out of court to avoid the soaring costs. The lawyers for the injured patients know this, and their whole strategy is just to get an out of court settlementits almost guaranteed. All you have to do is file a ridiculous claim and youll get several thousand dollars for it as a buy-out by the medical lawyers to avoid having to go through the whole trial. Its such a scam! I was on a jury this past spring that had this exact thing happen. It all adds up to impossible legal fees for no valid reason, and it harms you and me because we are losing medical care everywhere. It costs millions of dollars/year (from insurance and the govt, which we also pay) because doctors must order all kinds of tests as a defense in case there is a claim against them for some reasonits called defensive medicine. This is why insurance costs are going through the roof. Do you like paying exorbitant insurance rates??? (I dont!) Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] newbie
Welcome, Debbie! How did you learn about this rascally bunch? Izzy From Lance, who is about sharing goodthings with people whenever he finds them (the things and the people). Thanks for the thousand welcomes! Debbie
RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
See, the Bible tells you so!!! It is Biblical to sue :) Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff PowersSent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 21.09To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Whats next? Kay, just wait til Slade sees this. We have discussed this several times and the passage does not mean a literal eye for eye, etc., What it means is fair and just compensation to the injured person. ie: a tooth is worth $30, an eye $25,000, a kidney $1,000,000. Hey don't hold me to these numbers, I picked em out of the air! But I think the example is obvious. Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 20:34 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? I don't pay for insurance. The easy fix is...refuse to settle. Go to trial and if the claim is truly meritless, it will lose. But, in my opinion, the doctor who removes the wrong kidney should be suedand lose his license. Would it be Biblical to ask for his kidney in exchangeeye for an eye...tooth for a tooth...kidney for a kidney:) Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 20.26To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? (Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks.Kay PS I forgot to mention, juries dont even usually get to the point of making a judgment. Most medical malpractice suits are settled out of court to avoid the soaring costs. The lawyers for the injured patients know this, and their whole strategy is just to get an out of court settlementits almost guaranteed. All you have to do is file a ridiculous claim and youll get several thousand dollars for it as a buy-out by the medical lawyers to avoid having to go through the whole trial. Its such a scam! I was on a jury this past spring that had this exact thing happen. It all adds up to impossible legal fees for no valid reason, and it harms you and me because we are losing medical care everywhere. It costs millions of dollars/year (from insurance and the govt, which we also pay) because doctors must order all kinds of tests as a defense in case there is a claim against them for some reasonits called defensive medicine. This is why insurance costs are going through the roof. Do you like paying exorbitant insurance rates??? (I dont!) Izzy
Re: [Fwd: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]]
In a message dated 1/6/2005 8:40:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I personally believe that Romans 14 teaches us that a position of faith, if poorly determined, I should have said "even if" -- " a position of faith, even if poorly determined ..." J
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/6/2005 10:59:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Any time we replace old beliefs with new ones there is the potential of inner tension, a trickle-down effect which takes place as other, yet unchanged beliefs are challenged by the new. This I believe is what John is experiencing/expressing. Hence it does not necessarily have anything to do with some sort of God-sent anxiety on John's behalf, nor need it be interpreted as "red flags" by you; it is just the normal process Christians go through when taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.Blessings, Bill Bill, my personal experience (FWIW) has been that when I have anxiety or tension over a new concept it is because I am trying to incorporate something that is not of the Spirit of God. Thus the concept and the Spirit are at war; conflicted. Whenever I come into true revelation of a new concept I experience peace and joy. Izzy When I personally experience tension over a new concept, it is because I am ...thinking. Make of it what you will. I do not like being wrong or poorly informed. That is why, of coourse, such seldom is the case in my case. Learning is a blast -- fogging your way through personal bias in an effort to get at something deeper while continuing as a witness for Christ is the struggle for me. Thank God the "gospel" message is profoundly simple. Appreciating the Lord Jesus and doing what He did is central to this Message ( in a practical sense). A message of hope, powerful in its simplicity, undefeatable in fact and affording the disciple a witness in spite of his own personal confusion about the "deeper" things. John John.
RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
Kay, REALLY if its a case that bad of course it will go to court. Problem is, even with a case that will lose, its cheaper for the insurance co to bail out with a settlement; otherwise they go on for weeks or more. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:35 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? I don't pay for insurance. The easy fix is...refuse to settle. Go to trial and if the claim is truly meritless, it will lose. But, in my opinion, the doctor who removes the wrong kidney should be suedand lose his license. Would it be Biblical to ask for his kidney in exchangeeye for an eye...tooth for a tooth...kidney for a kidney:) Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 20.26 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? (Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks.Kay PS I forgot to mention, juries dont even usually get to the point of making a judgment. Most medical malpractice suits are settled out of court to avoid the soaring costs. The lawyers for the injured patients know this, and their whole strategy is just to get an out of court settlementits almost guaranteed. All you have to do is file a ridiculous claim and youll get several thousand dollars for it as a buy-out by the medical lawyers to avoid having to go through the whole trial. Its such a scam! I was on a jury this past spring that had this exact thing happen. It all adds up to impossible legal fees for no valid reason, and it harms you and me because we are losing medical care everywhere. It costs millions of dollars/year (from insurance and the govt, which we also pay) because doctors must order all kinds of tests as a defense in case there is a claim against them for some reasonits called defensive medicine. This is why insurance costs are going through the roof. Do you like paying exorbitant insurance rates??? (I dont!) Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] newbie
Hes a waskally wabbit, for sure. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 8:30 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] newbie Welcome, Debbie! How did you learn about this rascally bunch? Izzy From Lance, who is about sharing goodthings with people whenever he finds them (the things and the people). Thanks for the thousand welcomes! Debbie
RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?
As I said, most cases never reach a jury, and the plaintiffs lawyers know it. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:32 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? Maybe if the doctors didn't mess up, they wouldn't get sued. The standard for medical malpractice claims are VERY high, so it's hard to win a lawsuitthat means there has to be some egregious error made by the doctor in the first place before a suit can be brought forth andwon. Makes me wonder about the doctors you've got out there. So glad I use alternative medicine :) Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 20.19 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next? (Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:) You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big bucks. Kay Thats exactly why we need some kind of caps. I live too close to East St. Louis, the capitol of Hit the Jackpot claims that have driven doctors out of the areathey cant afford the soaring medical malpractice insurance. (You should see the shyster lawyer TV ads we have here! Did something bad happen to you or your loved one? Well SOMEONE should PAY!!!) Now the welfare folks come across the river to the St. Louis hospitals in search of someone to sue. Its illegal for the hospitals to turn them away. And if they are on Medicare, the govt caps what the hospital gets reimbursed for their care (often its a big loss). Our government also has a law stating that hospitals must provide translators for non-English speaking patients, yet the cost is not reimbursed by the govt.! St. Louis has the largest Bosnian refugee population in America, plus lots of Hispanics, etc. They are often on welfare, plus the hospital must pay for a translator. Its a huge loss. No wonder so many inner-city hospitals have had to just fold up. St. Louis hospital for the indigent folded a few years ago, and now the burden is on St. Louis University Hospital and Barnes Hospital mostly. Our SLU hospital auxiliary uses some of its funds to pay for translators of whatever language just to help keep the hospital in business. The corrupt ones are ruining medical care for the rest of us. Thats why we need to support reform in this area. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] newbie
DAVEH: Though I am a bit late welcoming you, Debbie.I'm glad you've seen fit to join TT. I hope you enjoy your visit here as much as I have! Debbie Sawczak wrote: Hi all, I am a new kid on this block, and I think it behooves me just tolisten for a while, but rather than skulk under the eaves I thought I'd let you know I'm here. Ive been a Christian for a long time and have always been very interested in questions of faith.Now, though, I'm at a point in my life when Im re-examining a lot of things, and I find that exciting; it's leading me to a much richer appreciation of who God is and what it means to be in Christ. Im looking forward to getting to know all your voices, the things that matter to you, and why. Debbie -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
