subject:"RE\: \[TruthTalk\] Christians' authority over nature"











Terry, 



Casting out demons is a simple thing that
Believers should do as a matter of course whenever necessary. You dont
cast out demons from everyone, as those who wish to have demons
and have invited them in will not be better off if you cast them outthe house
will be swept clean and even more demons will return, making them worse off in
the long run. But it is a commonplace thing a Believer can/should do w/o
any fanfare whenever you are opposed by them. I still have a difficult
time deciding what is the difference between binding and casting out demons, but
I dont mess with them when I see them (spiritually). Demonic
activity is all around us, for those who have eyes to see it. (And Im
not one of those spooky people who go looking for them or live like Christian
witches, either.) And whenever I pray for someone who recovers I consider that
just as miraculous as when they are healed in Africa.




Izzy












We have a couple in our home church who have a son who is a missionary in Africa. The son quite often reports miracles of
healing or casting out demons in that theater, and I have no valid reason to
doubt him. Still, I wonder why the areas where you hear the most about
miracles, namely, the Caribbean and Africa,
are also the areas where witchcraft and voodoo are strongest.
Any thoughts on this phenomenon?
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Terry Clifton





ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  


  
  
  
  
  Terry, 
  
  Casting out
demons is a simple thing that
Believers should do as a matter of course whenever necessary. You
dont
cast out demons from everyone, as those who wish to have demons
and have invited them in will not be better off if you cast them
outthe house
will be swept clean and even more demons will return, making them worse
off in
the long run. But it is a commonplace thing a Believer can/should do
w/o
any fanfare whenever you are opposed by them. I still have a difficult
time deciding what is the difference between binding and casting out
demons, but
I dont mess with them when I see them (spiritually). Demonic
activity is all around us, for those who have eyes to see it. (And Im
not one of those spooky people who go looking for them or live like
Christian
witches, either.) And whenever I pray for someone who recovers I
consider that
just as miraculous as when they are healed in Africa.
  
  
  Izzy
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  

Can you expand on this idea. While I agree that demons surround us, I
have only seen two persons who I was absolutely certain were
possessed. I did not feel called to try to eliminate the problem in
one, and though I prayed for and talked with the other, I made no
attempt to cast them out, nor did I feel guilty for not trying. That
may seem odd to some, since even unsaved people have cast out demons in
Jesus' name, but I have no problem with it, nor do I think it makes me
less of a Christian. If the Spirit does not lead me, I do not try to
function on my own in matters such as this.

Please share your simple method with us. Someone may benefit.

I think you are correct in seeing answered prayer as a miracle. Jenna
is home from the hospital. Prayers have been answered.  A miracle.

Terry

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Can you expand on this idea. While I agree that
demons surround us, I have only seen two persons who I was absolutely certain
were possessed. I did not feel called to try to eliminate the problem in
one, and though I prayed for and talked with the other, I made no attempt to
cast them out, nor did I feel guilty for not trying. That may seem odd to
some, since even unsaved people have cast out demons in Jesus' name, but I have
no problem with it, nor do I think it makes me less of a Christian. If
the Spirit does not lead me, I do not try to function on my own in matters such
as this.

Please share your simple method with us. Someone may benefit.

I think you are correct in seeing answered prayer as a miracle. Jenna is
home from the hospital. Prayers have been answered. A miracle.

Terry

Terry,

You are rightone is no less a
Christian whether or not one casts out demons or anything else. But it is
something that we can do if/when the Spirit leads. I gave a few examples in my
book. I can see in someones eyes, sometimes, whether they are demonic
or have the Holy SpiritIm sure most Believers do also. For
example, (pardon me Lance) if you look into George Bushs eyes there is a
definite twinkle that only comes from the Holy Spirit. Have you noticed John
Kerrys eyes? They are dark, flat, empty and have no sparkle. Even his
deadpan _expression_ belies the depth of deadness inside of him. Im just
giving them as examples because they are faces we all see on the news every
day. They are not unusual. However, Im not about to cast demons out of
Kerry or anyone elsebut if the demons within them are giving me any
trouble I will just rebuke them in the name of Jesus and by His Blood, and they
bug off w/o delay.

When we moved into this house, which is 99
years old, it had at least one ghost (demonic activity). The
first owner, Captain ODay, had given his son a chemistry set for
Christmas. The boy had been playing with it on the 3rd floor, and
caught fire and burned to death. Captain ODay, all these years since
his death still wandered the upstairs hall grieving over his son. It was quite
spooky. When I first went up the stairs with the realtor showing us this house
I repressed the sudden desire to ask him if this house had a ghost. Why did
the thought ever come to me? I could feel it. I even felt dizzy going up the
stairs. Before we moved in the woman who sold us the house took me upstairs and
explained the story and told me about the ghosts activity in the house.
She had never seen it, but houseguests had seen it. The most recent one (just
a couple of months prior to our moving in) had been when a woman houseguest
said to her, I thought we were in the house alone. She said we
are. The woman replied, No we arent. I just saw a man walking up
the stairs. This and other stories gave me the creeps. So after we
moved in I just went upstairs and announced to every demon that we were moving
in and they were moving out! I pled the Blood of Christ over our home and
everything and everyone in it, and commanded every spirit not from God to
depart. And they did. The 3rd floor is now a very pleasant,
cheerful, part of our home.

Sometimes you dont cast out demons,
but just rebuke them. Since moving to the Central West End of St.
Louis, which has about as much homosexual activity as San Francisco because it is the most attractive
neighborhood in St. Louis
city, a man nicknamed Baton Bob has been quite the entertainment on
the streets. He lost his job as an airline steward after 9/11. So he decided
to revive his enjoyment from high school of baton twirling but walking up and
down the busy streets and through the café areas twirling his baton. He
is a muscular black man and quite good at it. He wears his Walkman headphones
and dances and shimmies and twirls, especially along busy Kinghshighway, across
from the huge Barnes Hospital complex and alongside Forest Park, during rush hour traffic so he
can be seen by more people. Baton Bob also dresses in flamboyant outfits such
as his pink tutu with pink feather boa and wrist bands, or his sparkling royal
blue outfit with matching hat and gloves, or his favoritethe fancy white
wedding dress with elbow-length white gloves.

At first it was just funny and a bit embarrassing
to see this man parading around like that, obviously so demonic that he has
been given over to a depraved mind. He has made quite a name for himself and
now makes a living entertaining at parties. He has been many of the late night
entainment TV shows like Letterman. I never liked this nut case wiggling
around the area but didnt know what to do about it. Finally this spring
I had had about enough of him, so every time I saw him I just started rebuking the
devil in the Name of Jesus and asking the Lord to remove this depravity from St. Louis. Recently
there was a news article in the Post-Dispatch that Baton Bob has gotten upset
with the way he was treated at the John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Lance Muir




Iz:You draw me out! Bush's 'twinkle' may well be 
due to deceipt. (See the House of Bush/The House of Saud). The 'flatness' in 
Kerry's eyes may well be due to a rather poor choice re: his second wife. This 
poor jerk is saddled with one dim broad!(It's her eyes I'd be taking a 
closer look at). Sorry Iz but, you brought it up.

I appreciated all the rest of what you had to 
say.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 29, 2004 10:57
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  
  
  
  
  Can you expand on this idea. While I agree that 
  demons surround us, I have only seen two persons who I was absolutely certain 
  were possessed. I did not feel called to try to eliminate the problem in 
  one, and though I prayed for and talked with the other, I made no attempt to 
  cast them out, nor did I feel guilty for not trying. That may seem odd 
  to some, since even unsaved people have cast out demons in Jesus' name, but I 
  have no problem with it, nor do I think it makes me less of a Christian. 
  If the Spirit does not lead me, I do not try to function on my own in matters 
  such as this.Please share your simple method with us. Someone 
  may benefit.I think you are correct in seeing answered prayer as a 
  miracle. Jenna is home from the hospital. Prayers have been 
  answered.  A miracle.Terry
  
  Terry, 
  
  
  You are rightone is 
  no less a Christian whether or not one casts out demons or anything else. But 
  it is something that we can do if/when the Spirit leads. I gave a few 
  examples in my book. I can see in someones eyes, sometimes, whether 
  they are demonic or have the Holy SpiritIm sure most Believers do 
  also. For example, (pardon me Lance) if you look into George Bushs eyes 
  there is a definite twinkle that only comes from the Holy Spirit. Have 
  you noticed John Kerrys eyes? They are dark, flat, empty and have no sparkle. 
  Even his deadpan _expression_ belies the depth of deadness inside of him. Im 
  just giving them as examples because they are faces we all see on the news 
  every day. They are not unusual. However, Im not about to cast demons 
  out of Kerry or anyone elsebut if the demons within them are giving me any 
  trouble I will just rebuke them in the name of Jesus and by His Blood, and 
  they bug off w/o delay.
  
  When we moved into 
  this house, which is 99 years old, it had at least one ghost (demonic 
  activity). The first owner, Captain ODay, had given his son a chemistry 
  set for Christmas. The boy had been playing with it on the 
  3rd floor, and caught fire and burned to death. Captain 
  ODay, all these years since his death still wandered the upstairs hall 
  grieving over his son. It was quite spooky. When I first went up 
  the stairs with the realtor showing us this house I repressed the sudden 
  desire to ask him if this house had a ghost. Why did the thought ever 
  come to me? I could feel it. I even felt dizzy going up the stairs. Before we 
  moved in the woman who sold us the house took me upstairs and explained the 
  story and told me about the ghosts activity in the house. She had never 
  seen it, but houseguests had seen it. The most recent one (just a couple 
  of months prior to our moving in) had been when a woman houseguest said to 
  her, I thought we were in the house alone. She said we are. The 
  woman replied, No we arent. I just saw a man walking up the stairs. 
  This and other stories gave me the creeps. So after we moved in I just 
  went upstairs and announced to every demon that we were moving in and they 
  were moving out! I pled the Blood of Christ over our home and everything and 
  everyone in it, and commanded every spirit not from God to depart. And 
  they did. The 3rd floor is now a very pleasant, cheerful, 
  part of our home.
  
  Sometimes you dont 
  cast out demons, but just rebuke them. Since moving to the Central West 
  End of St. Louis, which has about as much 
  homosexual activity as San Francisco because it 
  is the most attractive neighborhood in St. Louis city, a man nicknamed Baton Bob 
  has been quite the entertainment on the streets. He lost his job as an 
  airline steward after 9/11. So he decided to revive his enjoyment from 
  high school of baton twirling but walking up and down the busy streets and 
  through the café areas twirling his baton. He is a muscular black man 
  and quite good at it. He wears his Walkman headphones and dances and 
  shimmies and twirls, especially along busy Kinghshighway, across from the huge 
  Barnes Hospital complex and alongside Forest Park, during rush 
  hour traffic so he can be seen by more people. Baton Bob also dresses in 
  flamboyant outfits such as his pink tutu with pink feather boa and wrist 
  bands, or his sparkling royal blue outfit with matching hat and gloves, or his 
  favoritethe fancy white wedding dress with elbow

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









Lance, Perhaps its time for you to
take a look in the mirrorhow are your eyes looking? (Re: Kerrys
wife: birds of a feather flock together.) Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 9:14
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature







Iz:You draw me out! Bush's 'twinkle'
may well be due to deceipt. (See the House of Bush/The House of Saud). The
'flatness' in Kerry's eyes may well be due to a rather poor choice re: his
second wife. This poor jerk is saddled with one dim broad!(It's her eyes
I'd be taking a closer look at). Sorry Iz but, you brought it up.











I appreciated all the rest of what
you had to say.







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: August 29, 2004 10:57





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature















Can you expand on this idea. While I agree that
demons surround us, I have only seen two persons who I was absolutely certain
were possessed. I did not feel called to try to eliminate the problem in
one, and though I prayed for and talked with the other, I made no attempt to
cast them out, nor did I feel guilty for not trying. That may seem odd to
some, since even unsaved people have cast out demons in Jesus' name, but I have
no problem with it, nor do I think it makes me less of a Christian. If
the Spirit does not lead me, I do not try to function on my own in matters such
as this.

Please share your simple method with us. Someone may benefit.

I think you are correct in seeing answered prayer as a miracle. Jenna is
home from the hospital. Prayers have been answered.  A miracle.

Terry



Terry, 



You are rightone is no less a
Christian whether or not one casts out demons or anything else. But it is
something that we can do if/when the Spirit leads. I gave a few examples
in my book. I can see in someones eyes, sometimes, whether they
are demonic or have the Holy SpiritIm sure most Believers do
also. For example, (pardon me Lance) if you look into George Bushs
eyes there is a definite twinkle that only comes from the Holy Spirit.
Have you noticed John Kerrys eyes? They are dark, flat, empty and have
no sparkle. Even his deadpan _expression_ belies the depth of deadness inside of
him. Im just giving them as examples because they are faces we all see
on the news every day. They are not unusual. However, Im not about
to cast demons out of Kerry or anyone elsebut if the demons within them
are giving me any trouble I will just rebuke them in the name of Jesus and by
His Blood, and they bug off w/o delay.



When we moved into this house, which is 99
years old, it had at least one ghost (demonic activity).
The first owner, Captain ODay, had given his son a chemistry set for
Christmas. The boy had been playing with it on the 3rd floor,
and caught fire and burned to death. Captain ODay, all these years
since his death still wandered the upstairs hall grieving over his son.
It was quite spooky. When I first went up the stairs with the realtor
showing us this house I repressed the sudden desire to ask him if this house
had a ghost. Why did the thought ever come to me? I could feel it. I even
felt dizzy going up the stairs. Before we moved in the woman who sold us the
house took me upstairs and explained the story and told me about the
ghosts activity in the house. She had never seen it, but
houseguests had seen it. The most recent one (just a couple of months
prior to our moving in) had been when a woman houseguest said to her, I
thought we were in the house alone. She said we are. The
woman replied, No we arent. I just saw a man walking up the
stairs. This and other stories gave me the creeps. So after
we moved in I just went upstairs and announced to every demon that we were
moving in and they were moving out! I pled the Blood of Christ over our home
and everything and everyone in it, and commanded every spirit not from God to
depart. And they did. The 3rd floor is now a very
pleasant, cheerful, part of our home.



Sometimes you dont cast out demons,
but just rebuke them. Since moving to the Central West End of St. Louis, which has about as much homosexual activity as San Francisco because it is the most attractive
neighborhood in St. Louis
city, a man nicknamed Baton Bob has been quite the entertainment
on the streets. He lost his job as an airline steward after 9/11.
So he decided to revive his enjoyment from high school of baton twirling but
walking up and down the busy streets and through the café areas twirling
his baton. He is a muscular black man and quite good at it. He
wears his Walkman headphones and dances and shimmies and twirls, especially
along busy Kinghshighway, across from the huge Barnes
Hospital complex and alongside Forest Park, during rush
hour traffic so he can be seen by more people. Baton Bob also dresses in
flamboyant outfits such as his pink tutu

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Lance Muir




Iz:I went to take a look. Yikes! Now, I'll watch 
this week for the 'twinkly' eyes of GB to 'see' just how low he sets the bar of 
mediocrity. Imagine being a less than fawning devotee of GB but still a 
republican and realizing that he's your ownly choice. Yikes again!!

I still appreciated the balance of what you had to 
say along with your observations on 'possession' generally. 

Keep looking ahead to 2008 when HC assumes the 
office much to the chagrin of y'all.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 29, 2004 11:26
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  
  Lance, Perhaps its 
  time for you to take a look in the mirrorhow are your eyes looking? (Re: 
  Kerrys wife: birds of a feather flock together.) 
  Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 9:14 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  
  Iz:You draw me 
  out! Bush's 'twinkle' may well be due to deceipt. (See the House of Bush/The 
  House of Saud). The 'flatness' in Kerry's eyes may well be due to a rather 
  poor choice re: his second wife. This poor jerk is saddled with one dim 
  broad!(It's her eyes I'd be taking a closer look at). Sorry Iz but, you 
  brought it up.
  
  
  
  I appreciated 
  all the rest of what you had to say.
  

- 
Original Message - 

From: ShieldsFamily 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: August 29, 
2004 10:57

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Christians' authority over 
nature





Can you expand on this idea. While I agree 
that demons surround us, I have only seen two persons who I was absolutely 
certain were possessed. I did not feel called to try to eliminate the 
problem in one, and though I prayed for and talked with the other, I made no 
attempt to cast them out, nor did I feel guilty for not trying. That 
may seem odd to some, since even unsaved people have cast out demons in 
Jesus' name, but I have no problem with it, nor do I think it makes me less 
of a Christian. If the Spirit does not lead me, I do not try to 
function on my own in matters such as this.Please share your simple 
method with us. Someone may benefit.I think you are correct in 
seeing answered prayer as a miracle. Jenna is home from the 
hospital. Prayers have been answered.  A 
miracle.Terry

Terry, 


You are rightone 
is no less a Christian whether or not one casts out demons or anything else. 
But it is something that we can do if/when the Spirit leads. I gave a 
few examples in my book. I can see in someones eyes, sometimes, 
whether they are demonic or have the Holy SpiritIm sure most Believers do 
also. For example, (pardon me Lance) if you look into George Bushs 
eyes there is a definite twinkle that only comes from the Holy Spirit. 
Have you noticed John Kerrys eyes? They are dark, flat, empty and have no 
sparkle. Even his deadpan _expression_ belies the depth of deadness inside of 
him. Im just giving them as examples because they are faces we all see on 
the news every day. They are not unusual. However, Im not about to 
cast demons out of Kerry or anyone elsebut if the demons within them are 
giving me any trouble I will just rebuke them in the name of Jesus and by 
His Blood, and they bug off w/o delay.

When we moved into 
this house, which is 99 years old, it had at least one ghost (demonic 
activity). The first owner, Captain ODay, had given his son a 
chemistry set for Christmas. The boy had been playing with it on the 
3rd floor, and caught fire and burned to death. Captain 
ODay, all these years since his death still wandered the upstairs hall 
grieving over his son. It was quite spooky. When I first went up 
the stairs with the realtor showing us this house I repressed the sudden 
desire to ask him if this house had a ghost. Why did the thought ever 
come to me? I could feel it. I even felt dizzy going up the stairs. Before 
we moved in the woman who sold us the house took me upstairs and explained 
the story and told me about the ghosts activity in the house. She had 
never seen it, but houseguests had seen it. The most recent one (just 
a couple of months prior to our moving in) had been when a woman houseguest 
said to her, I thought we were in the house alone. She said we 
are. The woman replied, No we arent. I just saw a man walking up the 
stairs. This and other stories gave me the creeps. So after we 
moved in I just went upstairs and announced to every demon that we were 
moving in and they were moving out! I pled the Blood of Christ over our home 
and everything

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Terry Clifton





Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  
  

That may seem odd to some, since even unsaved people have cast
out demons in Jesus' name, but I have no problem with it, nor do I
think it makes me less of a Christian. If the Spirit does not lead me,
I do not try to function on my own in matters such as this.

I've never heard of unsaved folk casting
out demons - the sons of Sceva didn't have much success with it.
Where have you heard this Terry?

  

==

 You already know this  MATT:7:22-23
 Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Terry Clifton





ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  <>When
we moved into this house, which is 99
years old, it had at least one ghost (demonic activity). The
first owner, Captain ODay, had given his son a chemistry set for
Christmas. The boy had been playing with it on the 3rd
floor, and
caught fire and burned to death. Captain ODay, all these years since
his death still wandered the upstairs hall grieving over his son. It
was quite
spooky. 

==
WHOOEE!!! I love you Sis, but you been watchin' too many baton
twirlers.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be in Paradise the same
day he died. 
He spoke of the rich man who planned to build more barns to hold his
stuff, but instead he died that night and opened his eyes in Hell. For
a Christian to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
All this tells me that when you die, you go to Heaven or you go to
Hell. You don't wander around on the third floor.

With a twinkle in my eye.
Terry

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









Lance, Scary experience, huh? J Im so
sorry you cant vote in America.
(NOT!) Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 9:36
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature







Iz:I went to take a look. Yikes!
Now, I'll watch this week for the 'twinkly' eyes of GB to 'see' just how low he
sets the bar of mediocrity. Imagine being a less than fawning devotee of
GB but still a republican and realizing that he's your ownly choice. Yikes
again!!











I still appreciated the balance of
what you had to say along with your observations on 'possession' generally. 











Keep looking ahead to 2008 when HC
assumes the office much to the chagrin of y'all.







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: August 29, 2004 11:26





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









Lance, Perhaps its time for you to
take a look in the mirrorhow are your eyes looking? (Re: Kerrys
wife: birds of a feather flock together.) Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 9:14
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians'
authority over nature







Iz:You draw me out! Bush's 'twinkle'
may well be due to deceipt. (See the House of Bush/The House of Saud). The
'flatness' in Kerry's eyes may well be due to a rather poor choice re: his
second wife. This poor jerk is saddled with one dim broad!(It's her eyes
I'd be taking a closer look at). Sorry Iz but, you brought it up.











I appreciated all the rest of what
you had to say.







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: August 29, 2004 10:57





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature















Can you expand on this idea. While I agree that
demons surround us, I have only seen two persons who I was absolutely certain
were possessed. I did not feel called to try to eliminate the problem in
one, and though I prayed for and talked with the other, I made no attempt to
cast them out, nor did I feel guilty for not trying. That may seem odd to
some, since even unsaved people have cast out demons in Jesus' name, but I have
no problem with it, nor do I think it makes me less of a Christian. If
the Spirit does not lead me, I do not try to function on my own in matters such
as this.

Please share your simple method with us. Someone may benefit.

I think you are correct in seeing answered prayer as a miracle. Jenna is
home from the hospital. Prayers have been answered.  A miracle.

Terry



Terry, 



You are rightone is no less a
Christian whether or not one casts out demons or anything else. But it is
something that we can do if/when the Spirit leads. I gave a few examples
in my book. I can see in someones eyes, sometimes, whether they
are demonic or have the Holy SpiritIm sure most Believers do
also. For example, (pardon me Lance) if you look into George Bushs
eyes there is a definite twinkle that only comes from the Holy Spirit.
Have you noticed John Kerrys eyes? They are dark, flat, empty and have
no sparkle. Even his deadpan _expression_ belies the depth of deadness inside of
him. Im just giving them as examples because they are faces we all see
on the news every day. They are not unusual. However, Im not about
to cast demons out of Kerry or anyone elsebut if the demons within them
are giving me any trouble I will just rebuke them in the name of Jesus and by
His Blood, and they bug off w/o delay.



When we moved into this house, which is 99
years old, it had at least one ghost (demonic activity).
The first owner, Captain ODay, had given his son a chemistry set for
Christmas. The boy had been playing with it on the 3rd floor,
and caught fire and burned to death. Captain ODay, all these years
since his death still wandered the upstairs hall grieving over his son.
It was quite spooky. When I first went up the stairs with the realtor
showing us this house I repressed the sudden desire to ask him if this house
had a ghost. Why did the thought ever come to me? I could feel it. I even
felt dizzy going up the stairs. Before we moved in the woman who sold us the
house took me upstairs and explained the story and told me about the
ghosts activity in the house. She had never seen it, but houseguests
had seen it. The most recent one (just a couple of months prior to our
moving in) had been when a woman houseguest said to her, I thought we
were in the house alone. She said we are. The woman replied,
No we arent. I just saw a man walking up the stairs.
This and other stories gave me the creeps. So after we moved in I just
went upstairs and announced to every demon that we were moving in and they were
moving out! I pled the Blood of Christ over our home and everything and everyone
in it, and commanded every spirit

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature













WHOOEE!!! I love you Sis, but you been watchin'
too many baton twirlers.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be in Paradise
the same day he died. 
He spoke of the rich man who planned to build more barns to hold his stuff, but
instead he died that night and opened his eyes in Hell. For a Christian
to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. All this tells
me that when you die, you go to Heaven or you go to Hell. You don't
wander around on the third floor.

With a twinkle in my eye.
Terry



Terry, Who says Capt ODay was a
Christian? I never heard of a ghost who wasnt either lost or a Democrat.
J And who knowsperhaps ghosts are just
demons, or maybe spirits of unsaved dead that just havent taken the
train to hell yet? I have no definitive answer. I just know it wasnt
Baton Bob walking around up there. If you dont believe in ghosts
I invite you to visit St. Louisthese
old houses are full of em. Most folks just think they have to co-habit. Keep
on twinklin, Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Slade Henson










Terry says. Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be in
Paradise the same day he died



Slade says I guess I dont need to ask
how you interpret Luke 23:43



He replied,
Truly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise.

He replied,
Truly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise.



-- slade



-Original
Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004
12:21 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature



ShieldsFamily wrote: 











 When we moved
into this house, which is 99 years old, it had at least one ghost (demonic
activity). The first owner, Captain ODay, had given his son a chemistry
set for Christmas. The boy had been playing with it on the 3rd
floor, and caught fire and burned to death. Captain ODay, all these
years since his death still wandered the upstairs hall grieving over his
son. It was quite spooky. 



==
WHOOEE!!! I love you Sis, but you been watchin' too many baton twirlers.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be in Paradise the same day he
died. 
He spoke of the rich man who planned to build more barns to hold his stuff, but
instead he died that night and opened his eyes in Hell. For a Christian
to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. All this tells
me that when you die, you go to Heaven or you go to Hell. You don't
wander around on the third floor.

With a twinkle in my eye.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 8/29/2004 5:29:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

We have a couple in our home church who have a son who is a missionary in Africa. The son quite often reports miracles of healing or casting out demons in that theater, and I have no valid reason to doubt him. Still, I wonder why the areas where you hear the most about miracles, namely, the Caribbean and Africa, are also the areas where witchcraft and voodoo are strongest. Any thoughts on this phenomenon? Terry

Home church  Did I hear "home church." My wife and I are considering this. We may go to our Mother Church -- a two thousand member Foursquare church (I still am not used to that name) .. It has the best worship in song that we have ever participated in. 
But the home church has a calling to it. 

I am a carpenter, now adays. I don't even hint that I every went to college. Testeriods do not care for girlie-men joe college types. But in my off hours, I do pastoral counseling. I meet people who are in need of help, and attend churches they like but are affeered ( this is the spell check word given to me -- can you dig it?) to open up in (pesky prepositionals) -- so they come to me (I advertise in the small local paper). Several have asked about "my" church preference. I usually tell them "anything that did not originate in Canada." Seriously, there is a ministry there. What are you thoughts. 


John

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature





















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:58
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature





C. Tim Winkley, Oh dear! Im afraid you come on at just
the wrong moment.  Heres a little background to the photos of Baton Bob
from earlier this morning.I hope that explains a lot.  Izzy









Can you expand on this idea. While I agree that
demons surround us, I have only seen two persons who I was absolutely certain
were possessed. I did not feel called to try to eliminate the problem in
one, and though I prayed for and talked with the other, I made no attempt to
cast them out, nor did I feel guilty for not trying. That may seem odd to
some, since even unsaved people have cast out demons in Jesus' name, but I have
no problem with it, nor do I think it makes me less of a Christian. If
the Spirit does not lead me, I do not try to function on my own in matters such
as this.

Please share your simple method with us. Someone may benefit.

I think you are correct in seeing answered prayer as a miracle. Jenna is
home from the hospital. Prayers have been answered.  A miracle.

Terry



Terry, 





Sometimes you dont cast out demons,
but just rebuke them. Since moving to the Central West End of St. Louis, which has about as much homosexual activity as San Francisco because it is the most attractive
neighborhood in St. Louis
city, a man nicknamed Baton Bob has been quite the entertainment
on the streets. He lost his job as an airline steward after 9/11.
So he decided to revive his enjoyment from high school of baton twirling but
walking up and down the busy streets and through the café areas twirling
his baton. He is a muscular black man and quite good at it. He
wears his Walkman headphones and dances and shimmies and twirls, especially
along busy Kinghshighway, across from the huge Barnes
Hospital complex and alongside Forest Park, during rush
hour traffic so he can be seen by more people. Baton Bob also dresses in
flamboyant outfits such as his pink tutu with pink feather boa and wrist bands,
or his sparkling royal blue outfit with matching hat and gloves, or his
favoritethe fancy white wedding dress with elbow-length white gloves. 



At first it was just funny and a bit
embarrassing to see this man parading around like that, obviously so demonic
that he has been given over to a depraved mind. He has made quite a name
for himself and now makes a living entertaining at parties. He has been
many of the late night entainment TV shows like Letterman. I never liked
this nut case wiggling around the area but didnt know what to do about
it. Finally this spring I had had about enough of him, so every time I saw him
I just started rebuking the devil in the Name of Jesus and asking the Lord to
remove this depravity from St. Louis.
Recently there was a news article in the Post-Dispatch that Baton Bob has
gotten upset with the way he was treated at the John Kerry and some other
political rally recently and has moved to Atlanta. I said, Praise
the Lord! I guess the Believers in Atlanta will have to deal with him now.
J 



I could go onbut do you really want
me to???



Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









John, There was a really neat guy (named
Woodward?) on TT several months to a year ago who believed home church was the
only way to go. I agree it is the best if you can find one. My
happiest church memories were many years ago in a home
group. I say go for it. Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 5:40
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature





In a message dated 8/29/2004 5:29:28 AM Pacific Daylight
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




We have a couple in our home church who have a son who is a
missionary in Africa. The son quite
often reports miracles of healing or casting out demons in that theater, and I
have no valid reason to doubt him. Still, I wonder why the areas where
you hear the most about miracles, namely, the Caribbean and Africa,
are also the areas where witchcraft and voodoo are strongest. Any
thoughts on this phenomenon? Terry



Home church  Did I hear home church. My wife and I
are considering this. We may go to our Mother Church
-- a two thousand member Foursquare church (I still am not used to that
name) .. It has the best worship in song that we have ever
participated in. 
But the home church has a calling to it. 

I am a carpenter, now adays. I don't even hint that I every went to
college. Testeriods do not care for girlie-men joe college types.
But in my off hours, I do pastoral counseling. I meet people who
are in need of help, and attend churches they like but are affeered ( this is
the spell check word given to me -- can you dig it?) to open up in
(pesky prepositionals) -- so they come to me (I advertise in the
small local paper). Several have asked about my church
preference. I usually tell them anything that did not
originate in Canada.
Seriously, there is a ministry there. What are you thoughts. 


John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Dave Hansen







Slade Henson wrote:

  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Terry
says. Jesus told the thief on the cross that He
would be in
Paradise the same day he died
  
  Slade says I
guess I dont need to ask
how you interpret Luke 23:43
  
  He replied,
Truly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise.
  He replied,
Truly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise.
  
  -- slade
  

DAVEH: Paul refers to paradise (2Cor 12:4) in relation to the
third heaven (vs 2). What do Protestants think the third heaven
means?

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-29 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 8/29/2004 6:39:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John, There was a really neat guy (named Woodward?) on TT several months to a year ago who believed home church was the only way to go. I agree it is the best if you can find one. My happiest church memories were many years ago in a home group. I say go for it. Izzy

 



Thanks for the encouragement. We actually had one in our home for several months. It had no statement of faith or purpose statement. Bad idea. We had as many as 17 meeting with us. One couple was and is counted as among our best friends -- but he is very legalistic about the biblical message. He was trying to save others from the fires of hell and interfered with everything the group was trying to do.. I did not know how to handle it without ruining our friendship, so I canceled the group!! How's that for an example of cowardess. Anywya -- God has moved them to a town 50 miles SE of here -- so the idea has come up again, only this time with a simple statement of faith that includes freedom to beleive and share what you believe the biblical message says. 


J David S

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-28 Thread Judy Taylor






On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:10:22 +0100 (BST) =?iso-8859-1?q?michael=20douglas?= 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Michael D: Judy touched on much that I would offer in 
  response to the questions asked. You see, all through Jesus' walk on earth He 
  kept asking, where is your faith; oh ye of little faith; how come you have no 
  faith? and on and on and on. The biggest problem God has is not as much 
  with whether it is His will or not, but whether we can believe He is able and 
  willing to keep His word for us.
  
  jt: Amen to the above sometimes I wonder if our brand 
  of Christianity is not more cultural than anything.
  
  The covenant we are under is a better covenant than 
  the OT saints'. It's a covenant of faith, and we are supposed to 
  live by faith. Now like Judy mentioned, there are many 
  areas where God rebukes me for insufficient faith, but I have to be careful 
  that I don't let what seems like God's choosing notto produce 
  certain results gloss over my inability to believe God for something, or in 
  some situation. WHen Jesus walked the earth, He refused no one who came to 
  Him. In fact, the Syrophonecian woman, jumped the fence of God's timetable to 
  get from Jesus what by right was not hers to have, just because she would not 
  take no for an answer. What did Jesus say, woman GREAT IS THY 
  FAITH, be it unto you as thou 
  wilt... Matt. 15:28
jt: True Jesus came to do good and to heal 
  ALL who are oppressed of the devil. I know faith is important but spiritual 
  discernment is vital also Michael. If the enemy has a toehold or 
  doorpoint in our lives with our consent then God's hands are tied in that 
  area.
  
  My point is that that too often we relegate non 
  results to not being God's will rather that our insufficient application of 
  faith (for what everreason). Whatever God has provided is unreservedly 
  available to usnoquestions asked. AllJesus commands is that 
  we abide inHim and let His words abide in us. 
  
  jt: Not too many of us (me included) press in like 
  the importune woman. I know a pastor who will not give up on people with 
  problems and he gets results. However, he is an extreme minority - the 
  only one I know of like this, if there are others out there I don't know about 
  them. Do you have some where you are Michael?
  
  In my own life, the biggest hindrance lies right 
  here. A strong faith life requires great spiritual discipline to keep our 
  hearts filled with the word and revelation of Jesus, who is the author of our 
  faith, and remain in a yielded and obedient state before Him. He is the one 
  who said that then we can ask what we 
  will and it shall be done. God wants us to realize that the 
  only thing that gets done on the earth is what man wills or allows. The enemy 
  works easily with both. God requires the former, that's why He says you ask 
  what you will... The way we avoid missing His agenda is in our abiding/oneness 
  with Him. Then we're in a position to have the mind of Christ.
  
  jt: The devil is shouting much louder in this present 
  world system. He is an oracle of fear in the earth and just about everywhere 
  we look we are encouraged to be fearful about something. Just about all of our 
  TV commercials these days are either pharmaceutical products or exercise 
  equipment... the perils of being fat or sick are in our faces constantly and 
  when we are not being reminded of them we have the threat of storms and/or 
  terrorism.
  
  I think Judy hit the nail on the head: 
  
  jt: No attack John, but how about a challenge to the 
  status quo?
  
  jt: Glad we can bein agreement about this 
  Michael.
  The reason I've tried to keep this thread alive 
  is to impress upon folks to do just that, Judy and John et al. Challenge the 
  traditional and somewhat casual mindset and have folks look to a greater 
  measure of grace that is available to us. Faith can move 
  mountains. Too often, though, we settle for molehills and even pebbles. 
  God wants us to come up higher and reign as kings on the earth. 
  That means getting your will done! Having what 
  you desire etc. The check valve is our abiding in him and His word 
  abiding in us. One more scripture here: 2 Cor 1:20 
  - 'For all the 
  promises of God in Him are yea and 
  amen unto the glory of God by 
  us'. Once God promises it, He 
  expects us to believe it no questions asked, for we know that He is not double 
  minded. Failures then fall into our garden, not God's.
  
  jt: Only thing I find conflicting above is the 
  will/desires. In my understanding things begin to happen when we are so 
  one with Him that His will becomes our will and His desires become our 
  desires. Until then we may receivea few crumbs but we won't be 
  walking in the kind of faith that moves mountains.
  
  Thanks for your input Michael, good to hear from 
  you,
  Grace and Peace, judyt
  
  
  .
  Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-28 Thread Terry Clifton





Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  
  On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:10:22 +0100 (BST)
=?iso-8859-1?q?michael=20douglas?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Faith can move mountains. Too often, though, we
settle for molehills and even pebbles. 
  
  <>
  Michael D: The biggest problem God has
is not as much with whether it is His will or not, but whether we can
believe He is able and willing to keep His word for us.
  
  
  
  
  <>My
point is that that too often we relegate non results to not being God's
will rather that our insufficient application of faith (for what
everreason). Whatever God has provided is unreservedly available to
usnoquestions asked. AllJesus commands is that we abide inHim and
let His words abide in us
=
Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith is a gift
from God, not something that man controls. He gives as He sees fit to
give. Some get more than others. All get enough to live by.

Working miracles or predicting the future are not necessarily signs of
faith. Submitting to the will of God is.
Terry
<><> 
  
  
  
  
  
  
   
  .

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-28 Thread Judy Taylor

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:59:43 -0400 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith is a gift
from God, not something that man controls.
He gives as He sees fit to give. Some get more than others. All
get enough to live by. Working miracles or
predicting the future are not necessarily signs of faith. Submitting
to the will of God is. Terry

jt: I agree with you Terry, Jesus is the author and the
perfecter of our faith and our faith is the faith of
Jesus. Every man is given the measure of faith,
in some it grows and in others it stays stagnant. The spiritual
gifts Jesus gave to the Church upon His ascension all
reside in the Holy Spirit and they operate as the Spirit
wills,
and thisincludes the working of miracles.I
don't know about predicting the future, without spiritual discernment
it
would be easy to get into divination in this area and
many have. Submitting to the will of God and loving Him is
our goal because IMO this is"Love from a pure
heart" I do long to see God at work among His people in all
of
these ways, that is, demonstrating His Word with signs
following. judyt

Judy Taylor wrote:

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:10:22 +0100 (BST)
=?iso-8859-1?q?michael=20douglas?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Faith can move mountains. Too often, though, we settle
for molehills and even pebbles.
Michael D: The biggest problem God has
is not as much with whether it is His will or not, but whether we can
believe He is able and willing to keep His word for us.
My point is that
that too often we relegate non results to not being God's will rather that
our insufficient application of faith (for what everreason). Whatever
God has provided is unreservedly available to usnoquestions
asked. AllJesus commands is that we abide inHim and let His
words abide in us

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-28 Thread Terry Clifton





Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  
  
  On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:59:43 -0400 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
  Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith is
a gift from God, not something that man controls. 
  He gives as He sees fit to give. Some get more than others.
All get enough to live by. Working miracles or 
  predicting the future are not necessarily signs of faith.
Submitting to the will of God is. Terry
  
  jt: I agree with you Terry, Jesus is the
author and the perfecter of our faith and our faith is the faith of
  Jesus. Every man is given the measure of
faith, in some it grows and in others it stays stagnant. The spiritual 
  gifts Jesus gave to the Church upon His
ascension all reside in the Holy Spirit and they operate as the Spirit wills, 
  and thisincludes the working of
miracles.I don't know about predicting the future, without spiritual
discernment it
  would be easy to get into divination in
this area and many have. Submitting to the will of God and loving Him
is
  our goal because IMO this is"Love from a
pure heart" I do long to see God at work among His people in all of
  these ways, that is, demonstrating His
Word with signs following. judyt

=
Like you, I would love to see these signs that caused people to wonder
and praise God, but I am not sure why. I have been given all the
information I needed to make a decision to trust Jesus in the Bible. I
made that decision some twenty-three plus years ago, and I have never
walked closer to my Lord than I do today, so it is not proof I am
looking for. Maybe just a reason to praise Him more.

We have a couple in our home church who have a son who is a missionary
in Africa. The son quite often reports miracles of healing or casting
out demons in that theater, and I have no valid reason to doubt him.
Still, I wonder why the areas where you hear the most about miracles,
namely, the Caribbean and Africa, are also the areas where witchcraft
and voodoo are strongest.
Any thoughts on this phenomenon?
Terry

RE: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-28 Thread Slade Henson










Terry asks: Any thoughts on this phenomenon?



slade comments: Could it simply be that those areas of
the world are not encumbered by philosophic restraints or intellectual bondage and
they expect more phenomenological experiences? Someone once said that God
responds to a person where they are.
Perhaps thats what God is doing.



Like you, I would love to see these
signs that caused people to wonder and praise God, but I am not sure why.
I have been given all the information I needed to make a decision to trust
Jesus in the Bible. I made that decision some twenty-three plus years
ago, and I have never walked closer to my Lord than I do today, so it is not
proof I am looking for. Maybe just a reason to praise Him more.

We have a couple in our home church who have a son who is a missionary in
Africa. The son quite often reports miracles of healing or casting out
demons in that theater, and I have no valid reason to doubt him. Still, I
wonder why the areas where you hear the most about miracles, namely, the
Caribbean and Africa, are also the areas where witchcraft and voodoo are
strongest.
Any thoughts on this phenomenon?
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-26 Thread Knpraise

FOURTEEN THINGS THAT IT TOOK OVER 50 YEARS TO LEARN -
by Dave Barry

1. Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

2. If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race has not achieved,
and never will achieve, its full potential, that word would be" meetings."

3. There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

4. People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to
share yours with them.

5. You should not confuse your career with your life.

6. Nobody cares if you can't dance well. Just get up and dance.

7. Never lick a steak knife.

8. The most destructive force in the universe is gossip.

9. You will never find anybody who can give you a clear and compelling reason why we
observe daylight savings time.

10. You should never say anything to a woman that even remotely suggests that you think
she's pregnant unless you can see an actual baby emerging from her at that moment.

11. There comes a time when you should stop expecting other people to make a big deal
about your birthday. That time is age eleven.

12. The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic
status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are
above-average drivers.

13. A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.
(This is very important. Pay attention. It never fails.)

14. Your friends love you anyway. (And boy that's a great feeling)

Thoughts for the day:
Never be afraid to try something new.
Remember - a lone amateur built the Ark.
A large group of professionals built the Titanic.

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-25 Thread Terry Clifton





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 8/24/2004 2:16:55 PM
Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  
  Remember
it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you according to Your
faith, not His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of
transfiguration and the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this
manner '...but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and,
help us. Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are
possible to him that believeth...' Mk. 9:22-23. 
  
  
Faith, our faith, is not the only consideration, is it? I mean, you
have the parable of the woman who gets what she wants because of her
constant and unrelenting requests. We have the man, the father, in the
above text admitting to a lack of faith ("I believe, help me
in my unbelief" v 24). We have the fact that Christians are no more
healthy, live no longer, are delivered from the mouths of lions and
the wicked no more frequently than others. Understand, that I do
believe very much in the power of God and the miraculous. But I have
watched as my brethren (Foursquare Intern'l) try to fine tune some
formulaic fantasy ("you didn't have enough faith," "your life must not
have the degree of holiness pleasing to God," "have you received the
spirit with evidences of speaking in tongues," " God only answers for
xx result (physical healing, spiritual whatever, never mechanical
considerations such as your car or refrigerator or ?") that would open
the door to God's supply of physical blessing. 
  
I am interested in a discussion of this rather than receiving an attack
claiming I am not a believer of sorts. 
  
  
John Smithson
  
===
Well said, John. Though there is nothing at all wrong with going to
God with your concerns, it is quite evident that the big picture is us
serving God, not God serving us. Jesus said, "I must be about my
Father's business". His desire was not to make people wealthy, or to
protect them from every calamity. His desire was to serve. He calmed
the storm and healed the leper in the process of glorifying the Father.


None of the apostles ended up with a mansion on the hill and a life of
ease. Only one died a natural death. Paul could not even get his eye
problem fixed. Timothy had a stomach problem. Paul tells him, "Try a
little wine. Maybe that will help." We have the right to ask anything
that is in His will. We do not have the right to ask amiss...
Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

I think that is why when the disciples asked Jesus, "Teach us to pray",
His primary teaching was, 'Thy will be done,  Just provide for our
needs, and to You be the glory."

That might be a hard prayer for us to pray when a hurricane threatens
to take all our stuff, but you have to ask yourself at that point,
"What is more important, my stuff, or God's will?"
 
Five years ago, I was lying on an operating table, waiting to have my
chest opened and my heart stopped while they did some plumbing. To me,
that was cause for great concern. It was never harder to pray "Thy
will be done", but that was my prayer, and the Lord honored it. I have
never, since then, questioned my salvation. I was obedient when it was
hard to be obedient. God was faithful.

His is the power. His is the glory.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-25 Thread Lance Muir




Amen  Amen (John  Terry) This so-called HW gospel is better 
'marketed' in the West. When one goes to Asia, the Middle East, Central  
South America  Africa 'one' finds an incompatibility with the lived 
reality. NB:a good book on this: Faith, Health  Prosperity - Andrew 
Perriman (Paternoster Press, 2003)

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 25, 2004 07:13
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  In a message dated 8/24/2004 2:16:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
Remember it is Jesus who 
  said ...be it unto you according to Your faith, not 
  His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of transfiguration and 
  the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner '...but if thou 
  canst do anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus said unto 
  him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that 
  believeth...' Mk. 9:22-23. Faith, our faith, is not 
the only consideration, is it? I mean, you have the parable of 
the woman who gets what she wants because of her constant and unrelenting 
requests. We have the man, the father, in the above text admitting to 
a lack of faith ("I believe, help me in my unbelief" v 24). We have 
the fact that Christians are no more healthy, live no longer, are 
delivered from the mouths of lions and the wicked no more frequently than 
others. Understand, that I do believe very much in the 
power of God and the miraculous. But I have watched as my 
brethren (Foursquare Intern'l) try to fine tune some formulaic fantasy 
("you didn't have enough faith," "your life must not have the degree 
of holiness pleasing to God," "have you received the spirit with 
evidences of speaking in tongues," " God only answers for xx 
result (physical healing, spiritual whatever, never mechanical 
considerations such as your car or refrigerator or ?") that would open the 
door to God's supply of physical blessing. 
I am interested in a discussion of this rather than receiving an 
attack claiming I am not a believer of sorts. John 
Smithson===Well 
  said, John. Though there is nothing at all wrong with going to God with 
  your concerns, it is quite evident that the big picture is us serving God, not 
  God serving us. Jesus said, "I must be about my Father's 
  business". His desire was not to make people wealthy, or to protect them 
  from every calamity. His desire was to serve. He calmed the storm 
  and healed the leper in the process of glorifying the Father. 
  None of the apostles ended up with a mansion on the hill and a 
  life of ease. Only one died a natural death. Paul could not even get his eye 
  problem fixed. Timothy had a stomach problem. Paul tells him, "Try 
  a little wine. Maybe that will help." We have the right to ask 
  anything that is in His will. We do not have the right to ask 
  amiss... Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.I think that 
  is why when the disciples asked Jesus, "Teach us to pray", His primary 
  teaching was, 'Thy will be done,  Just provide for our needs, and to You 
  be the glory."That might be a hard prayer for us to pray when a 
  hurricane threatens to take all our stuff, but you have to ask yourself at 
  that point, "What is more important, my stuff, or God's will?" 
  Five years ago, I was lying on an operating table, waiting to have my 
  chest opened and my heart stopped while they did some plumbing. To me, 
  that was cause for great concern. It was never harder to pray "Thy will 
  be done", but that was my prayer, and the Lord honored it. I have never, 
  since then, questioned my salvation. I was obedient when it was hard to 
  be obedient. God was faithful.His is the power. His is the 
  glory.Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-25 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 8/25/2004 5:28:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Well said, John. Though there is nothing at all wrong with going to God with your concerns, it is quite evident that the big picture is us serving God, not God serving us. Jesus said, "I must be about my Father's business". His desire was not to make people wealthy, or to protect them from every calamity. His desire was to serve. He calmed the storm and healed the leper in the process of glorifying the Father.

None of the apostles ended up with a mansion on the hill and a life of ease. Only one died a natural death. Paul could not even get his eye problem fixed. Timothy had a stomach problem. Paul tells him, "Try a little wine. Maybe that will help." We have the right to ask anything that is in His will. We do not have the right to ask amiss... Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

I think that is why when the disciples asked Jesus, "Teach us to pray", His primary teaching was, 'Thy will be done, Just provide for our needs, and to You be the glory."

That might be a hard prayer for us to pray when a hurricane threatens to take all our stuff, but you have to ask yourself at that point, "What is more important, my stuff, or God's will?"

Five years ago, I was lying on an operating table, waiting to have my chest opened and my heart stopped while they did some plumbing. To me, that was cause for great concern. It was never harder to pray "Thy will be done", but that was my prayer, and the Lord honored it. I have never, since then, questioned my salvation. I was obedient when it was hard to be obedient. God was faithful.

His is the power. His is the glory.
Terry

Awesome and amen.

John

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-25 Thread ShieldsFamily









Michael, John, and Terry. Its a
blessing to read the viewpoints of all of you. I hope we dont all jump
on Michael, because what he says is true to a point, no doubt about it.
But as we walk longer with the Lord I think Michael will find that the real
test of faith comes when we do pray, very long and very hard, for something
that we are absolutely must be Gods will---and He says no!!! That is
when the rubber meets the road. That is when we are tempted, like Job, to
despair and curse God and die. That is when we learn what
is most important; our rightful desire or Gods right to say no to a very
reasonable, even desperately needed, request. He cares more about our
character and holiness than about our happiness or even safety. He
loves us enough to make us choose, sometimes, between Him and our faith in our
faith. Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004
5:14 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature





[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: 

In a message
dated 8/24/2004 2:16:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




Remember it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you
according to Your faith, not His
power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of transfiguration and the
father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner '...but if thou canst do
anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus said unto him, if thou
canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...' Mk. 9:22-23. 



Faith, our faith, is not the only consideration, is it? I mean, you
have the parable of the woman who gets what she wants because of her constant
and unrelenting requests. We have the man, the father, in the above text
admitting to a lack of faith (I
believe, help me in my unbelief v 24). We have the fact that Christians
are no more healthy, live no longer, are delivered from the mouths of
lions and the wicked no more frequently than others.
Understand, that I do believe very much in the power of God and the
miraculous. But I have watched as my brethren (Foursquare
Intern'l) try to fine tune some formulaic fantasy (you didn't have enough
faith, your life must not have the degree of holiness
pleasing to God, have you received the spirit with evidences
of speaking in tongues,  God only answers for xx result
(physical healing, spiritual whatever, never mechanical considerations such as
your car or refrigerator or ?) that would open the door to God's
supply of physical blessing. 

I am interested in a discussion of this rather than receiving an attack
claiming I am not a believer of sorts. 


John Smithson

===
Well said, John. Though there is nothing at all wrong with going to God
with your concerns, it is quite evident that the big picture is us serving God,
not God serving us. Jesus said, I must be about my Father's
business. His desire was not to make people wealthy, or to protect
them from every calamity. His desire was to serve. He calmed the
storm and healed the leper in the process of glorifying the Father. 

None of the apostles ended up with a mansion on the hill and a life of
ease. Only one died a natural death. Paul could not even get his eye problem
fixed. Timothy had a stomach problem. Paul tells him, Try a
little wine. Maybe that will help. We have the right to ask
anything that is in His will. We do not have the right to ask
amiss... Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

I think that is why when the disciples asked Jesus, Teach us to
pray, His primary teaching was, 'Thy will be done,  Just provide
for our needs, and to You be the glory.

That might be a hard prayer for us to pray when a hurricane threatens to take
all our stuff, but you have to ask yourself at that point, What is more
important, my stuff, or God's will?
 
Five years ago, I was lying on an operating table, waiting to have my chest
opened and my heart stopped while they did some plumbing. To me, that was
cause for great concern. It was never harder to pray Thy will be
done, but that was my prayer, and the Lord honored it. I have
never, since then, questioned my salvation. I was obedient when it was
hard to be obedient. God was faithful.

His is the power. His is the glory.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-25 Thread Knpraise


Even though I write as if I know -- I am never or seldom fully convinced. Michael's return comments would be appreciated. My comments, and probably Terry's, are statements from us that reveal why we a little different viewpoint. For me, my statement is problematic to Michael's view -- and if my problem can be solved, then I want to know. Understand that Michael could very well solve my problem and I just wouldn't see it because of bias -- that happens. But his response is desired, nonetheless. 

John



In a message dated 8/25/2004 6:47:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 Michael, John, and Terry. Its a blessing to read the viewpoints of all of you. I hope we dont all jump on Michael, because what he says is true to a point, no doubt about it. But as we walk longer with the Lord I think Michael will find that the real test of faith comes when we do pray, very long and very hard, for something that we are absolutely must be Gods will---and He says no!!! That is when the rubber meets the road. That is when we are tempted, like Job, to despair and curse God and die. That is when we learn what is most important; our rightful desire or Gods right to say no to a very reasonable, even desperately needed, request. He cares more about our character and holiness than about our happiness or even safety. He loves us enough to make us choose, sometimes, between Him and our faith in our faith. Izzy

 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 5:14 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature


 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

In a message dated 8/24/2004 2:16:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




Remember it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you according to Your faith, not His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of transfiguration and the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner '...but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...' Mk. 9:22-23. 



Faith, our faith, is not the only consideration, is it? I mean, you have the parable of the woman who gets what she wants because of her constant and unrelenting requests. We have the man, the father, in the above text admitting to a lack of faith ("I believe, help me in my unbelief" v 24). We have the fact that Christians are no more healthy, live no longer, are delivered from the mouths of lions and the wicked no more frequently than others. Understand, that I do believe very much in the power of God and the miraculous. But I have watched as my brethren (Foursquare Intern'l) try to fine tune some formulaic fantasy ("you didn't have enough faith," "your life must not have the degree of holiness pleasing to God," "have you received the spirit with evidences of speaking in tongues," " God only answers for xx result (physical healing, spiritual whatever, never mechanical considerations such as your car or refrigerator or ?") that would open the door to God's supply of physical blessing. 

I am interested in a discussion of this rather than receiving an attack claiming I am not a believer of sorts. 


John Smithson

===
Well said, John. Though there is nothing at all wrong with going to God with your concerns, it is quite evident that the big picture is us serving God, not God serving us. Jesus said, "I must be about my Father's business". His desire was not to make people wealthy, or to protect them from every calamity. His desire was to serve. He calmed the storm and healed the leper in the process of glorifying the Father. 

 None of the apostles ended up with a mansion on the hill and a life of ease. Only one died a natural death. Paul could not even get his eye problem fixed. Timothy had a stomach problem. Paul tells him, "Try a little wine. Maybe that will help." We have the right to ask anything that is in His will. We do not have the right to ask amiss... Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

I think that is why when the disciples asked Jesus, "Teach us to pray", His primary teaching was, 'Thy will be done, Just provide for our needs, and to You be the glory."

That might be a hard prayer for us to pray when a hurricane threatens to take all our stuff, but you have to ask yourself at that point, "What is more important, my stuff, or God's will?"
 
Five years ago, I was lying on an operating table, waiting to have my chest opened and my heart stopped while they did some plumbing. To me, that was cause for great concern. It was never harder to pray "Thy will be done", but that was my prayer, and the Lord honored it. I have never, since then, questioned my salvation. I was obedient when it was hard to be obedient. God was faithful.

His is the power. His is the glory.
Terry

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-25 Thread Slade Henson










Interestingly,
in the face of a possibly devastating storm, I did not ask God to send it
somewhere else. I hoped [and prayed] it would dissipate in the face of the
front that was moving down toward it. When this scenario failed, I prayed (as we
fled) the book collection would survive the storm. I didnt care about the TV,
the stereo, etc. It was the book collection. This book collection contains
bibles, Targums, siddurim (Jewish prayer books), commentaries, and a multitude
of books required for Seminary and life thereafter.



I have no
problem asking God to provide physical blessing because He provided it to our
fathers in the past. I find the spiritual blessings to be just as rewarding,
though.



-Original
Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004
7:14 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

In a message
dated 8/24/2004 2:16:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:






Remember
it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you according to Your faith, not His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of
transfiguration and the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner
'...but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus
said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that
believeth...' Mk. 9:22-23. 





Faith, our faith, is not the only consideration, is it? I mean, you
have the parable of the woman who gets what she wants because of her constant
and unrelenting requests. We have the man, the father, in the above text
admitting to a lack of faith (I
believe, help me in my unbelief v 24). We have the fact that Christians
are no more healthy, live no longer, are delivered from the mouths of
lions and the wicked no more frequently than others.
Understand, that I do believe very much in the power of God and the
miraculous. But I have watched as my brethren (Foursquare
Intern'l) try to fine tune some formulaic fantasy (you didn't have enough
faith, your life must not have the degree of holiness
pleasing to God, have you received the spirit with evidences
of speaking in tongues,  God only answers for xx result
(physical healing, spiritual whatever, never mechanical considerations such as
your car or refrigerator or ?) that would open the door to God's
supply of physical blessing. 

I am interested in a discussion of this rather than receiving an attack
claiming I am not a believer of sorts. 


John Smithson

===
Well said, John. Though there is nothing at all wrong with going to God
with your concerns, it is quite evident that the big picture is us serving God,
not God serving us. Jesus said, I must be about my Father's
business. His desire was not to make people wealthy, or to protect
them from every calamity. His desire was to serve. He calmed the
storm and healed the leper in the process of glorifying the Father. 

None of the apostles ended up with a mansion on the hill and a life of
ease. Only one died a natural death. Paul could not even get his eye problem
fixed. Timothy had a stomach problem. Paul tells him, Try a
little wine. Maybe that will help. We have the right to ask
anything that is in His will. We do not have the right to ask
amiss... Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

I think that is why when the disciples asked Jesus, Teach us to
pray, His primary teaching was, 'Thy will be done,  Just provide
for our needs, and to You be the glory.

That might be a hard prayer for us to pray when a hurricane threatens to take
all our stuff, but you have to ask yourself at that point, What is more
important, my stuff, or God's will?
 
Five years ago, I was lying on an operating table, waiting to have my chest
opened and my heart stopped while they did some plumbing. To me, that was
cause for great concern. It was never harder to pray Thy will be
done, but that was my prayer, and the Lord honored it. I have
never, since then, questioned my salvation. I was obedient when it was
hard to be obedient. God was faithful.

His is the power. His is the glory.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-25 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Judy touched on much that I would offer in response to the questions asked. You see, all through Jesus' walk on earth He kept asking, where is your faith; oh ye of little faith; how come you have no faith? and on and on and on. The biggest problem God has is not as much with whether it is His will or not, but whether we can believe He is able and willing to keep His word for us.
The covenant we are under is a better covenant than the OT saints'. It's a covenant of faith, and we are supposed to live by faith. Now like Judy mentioned, there are many areas where God rebukes me for insufficient faith, but I have to be careful that I don't let what seems like God's choosing notto produce certain results gloss over my inability to believe God for something, or in some situation. WHen Jesus walked the earth, He refused no one who came to Him. In fact, the Syrophonecian woman, jumped the fence of God's timetable to get from Jesus what by right was not hers to have, just because she would not take no for an answer. What did Jesus say, woman GREAT IS THY FAITH, be it unto you as thou wilt... Matt. 15:28
My point is that that too often we relegate non results to not being God's will rather that our insufficient application of faith (for what everreason). Whatever God has provided is unreservedly available to usnoquestions asked. AllJesus commands is that we abide inHim and let His words abide in us. In my own life, the biggest hindrance lies right here. A strong faith life requires great spiritual discipline to keep our hearts filled with the word and revelation of Jesus, who is the author of our faith, and remain in a yielded and obedient state before Him. He is the one who said that then we can ask what we will and it shall be done. God wants us to realize that the only thing that gets done on the earth is what man wills or allows. The enemy works easily with both. God requires the former, that's why He says you ask what you will... The way we avoid missing His agenda is in our
abiding/oneness with Him. Then we're in a position to have the mind of Christ.
I think Judy hit the nail on the head:

jt: No attack John, but how about a challenge to the status quo?The reason I've tried to keep this thread alive is to impress upon folks to do just that, Judy and John et al. Challenge the traditional and somewhat casual mindset and have folks look to a greater measure of grace that is available to us. Faith can move mountains. Too often, though, we settle for molehills and even pebbles. God wants us to come up higher and reign as kings on the earth. That means getting your will done! Having what you desire etc. The check valve is our abiding in him and His word abiding in us.
One more scripture here: 2 Cor 1:20 -
'For all the promises of God in Him are yea and amen unto the glory of God by us'.
Once God promises it, He expects us to believe it no questions asked, for we know that He is not double minded. Failures then fall into our garden, not God's.

.
Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 8/24/2004 2:16:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Remember it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you according to Your faith, not His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of transfiguration and the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner '...but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...' Mk.
9:22-23.

jt: The rest of the story is that the man humbled himself before the Lord following which Jesus cast a deaf and dumb spirit out of his son. The son was having seizures and this spirit would throw him into the fire. Is nobody afflicted with these kinds of spirits today?

John writes: Faith, our faith, is not the only consideration, is it? I mean, you have the parable of the woman who gets what she wants because of her constant and unrelenting requests.

jt: Persistence is evidence of some kind of faith - in my understanding at least ie: If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try, again.

We have the man, the father, in the above text admitting to a lack of faith ("I believe, help me in my unbelief" v 24).

jt: He believed enough to come in the first place, he was just covering all the bases.

We have the fact that Christians are no more healthy, live no longer, are delivered from the mouths of lions and the wicked no more frequently than others.

jt: Why? This ought not to be. What about our Covenant Promises? We are supposed to have a better Covenant with better Promises than Israel -which should include healing and deliverance becausetheir Covenant included bothso long as theywalked in it. Covenant breakers don't get much from God. Actually God told Israel that if they went whoring after
other Gods and brokethe Covenant they had with Him that they would look worse than the other nations, and people
would walk by and hiss at them saying

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-24 Thread michael douglas

Jeff Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Thank you Michael,
 I didn't mean to question your faith, 
Michael D: No sweat, Jeff. My comment about stirring a brew should have been followed by a smiley. It was not a serious one. I thought it was a very good one which touched on an important principle (which I offered in my response).

I only wanted to know what you would do when the "fat hit the fan". For reasons we may only learn when we stand before the throne God does not always answer our prayers as WE want them answered. I don't want to open this can of worms, but I know from experience God does answer all our prayers as He sees fit.
Michael D: I would have to say yes and no to that one. Often God is only able to answer our prayers as we allow Him. Remember it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you according to Your faith, not His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of transfiguration and the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner '...but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...' Mk. 9:22-23. 

Not to be harsh, but often we excuse faith failures by relegating them to God's will holding sway against what we desired in prayer. I have found that when we allow God's word to speak, often it convicts of unbelief. 
Now, I do agree that we don't always get what we want, but there are sometines reasons for that. James says we pray amiss. We didn't take time to find out God's will/mind. 
My point is we ought to be very careful about branding things as God's will when we didn't get what we wanted. 
Next writing I might share a hurricane experience with you similar to the question you asked.


And sometimes,due to selfishness, wefail to see that He gave us theresult we wanted. In which case some never see that God answered their prayer in the affirmitive, and others see it only later.
Jeff

- Original Message - 
From: michael douglas 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Jeff Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Michael,
I see that Slade has giving the forcast and coordinates so I will not bother. Weather of this nature is of concern to me as I have several friends and aquaintences in Florida and the surrounding Gulf states. Also, currently my travels are keeping me in the Gulf region. 
 You mentioned your source, CNN,etc., its too bad they don't use the software I recomended! But thenthe lyrics to a song just came to mind, I think it was Glenn Frey who wrote,"People like it when you lose, they like dirty laundry..." the song reallypoints outhow networks like CNNsell airtime by sensationalizing the news.
 Unfortunately, I can imagine those cities facing the same again. I can also see the complacency of those very same people when it comes to taking storms of this nature seriously. It doesn't seem to impact people's minds that they could be the next ones this happens to. And you are right, too many are fatalistic about it. I'm happy to see your confidance in the power of prayer, but I have to present a scenario and see what your action would be:Suppose that a storm like Hurricane Charley is only about 12 hours from hitting your location and all the weather forcasts for the past 3-7 days repeat this imformation. Local authorities prepair for the worst and have issued mandatory evacuations of coastal areas. Now your home ismaybe 1.5 miles from the coast and maybe 6 feet above high tide.And the storm surge is predicted to be13-18 feet high. Keep praying that God will change the path of the
 storm, I'm not being a jerk Michael, this is just what I would be doing. Butthe clock is ticking. Oh, one more thing, in a storm of this intensity your home is about as sturdy as an empty Pepsi can. 10 hours to landfall now and the stormSTILL has not changed direction (but it was just upgradedfrom a cat. 3 storm to a cat. 4 storm). Michael, your family is looking to you to make a decision, they know that you are a man of strong faith, WHAT WILL YOU DO?
Jeff
Michael D: Well, Jeff, you sure do know how to stir a brew... 
In the type of scenario you painted, I will have to do some quick spirit checks to try and sense the witness of the Spirit to me. In that process, I will also be asking the Lord if we are on course for victory. If I am not getting that clearance or witness, thenI will try to find out why. I will ask God to show me what is the problem. 

{Where there are (potential) faith failures, I believe theproblem is with me/us and not with God.
We know that God is committed to His covenant and cannot lie.} 

I have found that God is committed to giving us insight and wisdom where we lack it if we would really ask in faith. Sometimes I also find thatI don't really want to hear what God has to reveal to me. Crucifixion might be involved... I have found that often we have faith failure

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-24 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 8/24/2004 2:16:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Remember it is Jesus who said ...be it unto you according to Your faith, not His power etc. When Jesus came down from the mount of transfiguration and the father pleaded with Him to heal his son in this manner '...but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and, help us. Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...' Mk. 9:22-23.

Faith, our faith, is not the only consideration, is it? I mean, you have the parable of the woman who gets what she wants because of her constant and unrelenting requests. We have the man, the father, in the above text admitting to a lack of faith ("I believe, help me in my unbelief" v 24). We have the fact that Christians are no more healthy, live no longer, are delivered from the mouths of lions and the wicked no more frequently than others. Understand, that I do believe very much in the power of God and the miraculous. But I have watched as my brethren (Foursquare Intern'l) try to fine tune some formulaic fantasy ("you didn't have enough faith," "your life must not have the degree of holiness pleasing to God," "have you received the spirit with evidences of speaking in tongues," " God only answers for xx result (physical healing, spiritual whatever, never mechanical considerations such as your car or refrigerator or ?") that would open the door to God's supply of physical blessing.

I am interested in a discussion of this rather than receiving an attack claiming I am not a believer of sorts.

John Smithson

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature







Lance Muir wrote:

  
  

  
  Iz:you may need to nuance or,
clarify a bit so as not to elicit too resounding an Amen from DaveH.

DAVEH: AMENto
both of your comments.

  
-
Original Message - 
From:
ShieldsFamily 
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent:
August 21, 2004 14:29
Subject:
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature



Jesus became
like us so that we could become like Him. Izzy


  
  
  


  


-- 
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain Five email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-22 Thread ShieldsFamily









John, I agree there are cultural mores
reflected in our thinking of right and wrong. There is also a true right
and wrong awareness in our heart that is put there by God alone. (That more
important conscience is what Lance disputes.) Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004
9:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature






I think you have misspoken --


In a message dated 8/21/2004 11:10:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:




John, Paul was referring
to the OT Law (or sometimes Talmud law) whenever he referenced the Law.
Most early Christians were Jews, well associated with the Law. Yes,
but he uses law eight times in this text in a general
sense -- if this Gentile has not heard The Law, what is the big deal
about arguing m point about any law. If I agreed with you,
here, gave up on the general use of nomos, you would still be
in egeteical trouble with a a capital T.



According to Romans, all are judged by the right and wrong that they know 



in their hearts, whether from the written Law or not. 



But here is where you go amiss. Because
.. I fully agree !! Eeee hah -- I won.

Lance is incorrect: God has given us a conscience to know right from 



wrong (at least until we have seared it.) Izzy



Lance is just saying that the conscience is not loaded up, at birth, with the
correct thinking on ethics and morality -- they come
our way via teaching. Look, if I wanted to humiliate my ex mother
in law, a Jesus only woman, all I have to do is to cut her
hair. A cultural demand in scripture that is a matter of
conscience with this woman.

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-22 Thread ShieldsFamily









I didnt say BECOME Him. J Iz











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Hansen
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004
11:58 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature







Lance Muir wrote:





Iz:you may need to nuance or, clarify a bit so as not to
elicit too resounding an Amen from DaveH.



DAVEH: AMENto both of your
comments.







- Original Message - 





From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Sent: August 21,
2004 14:29





Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









Jesus became like us so that we could
become like Him. Izzy



















-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)

2004-08-22 Thread Judy Taylor




jt: Let me change that to "some sort of superstitious 
thing" -My belief doesn't go this far 

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:17:21 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:48:24 AM Pacific 
  Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  John: When baseball season comes on, and I coach kids baseball, 
I often wear the same hat in exactly the same way every time we have a 
game. When I do not or cannot follow this pattern of activity, I 
feel bad. jt: Some social or obsessive 
compulsive thingThe really 
  fantastic thing about this obsessive complusive thing is that it 
  WORKS. We win every single time I wear the hat exactly right 
  -- every time. Say it with me now -- "I 
  believe." Reverend Smithson

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-22 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 8/21/2004 11:05:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

DAVEH: AMENto both of your comments.


Trouble maker ;-)

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature







ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  


  
  
  
  I didnt say
BECOME Him. J Iz
  

DAVEH: Yeah.that would be too much oneness, eh!  :-) 

  
  
  
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Dave Hansen
  Sent: Saturday, August
21, 2004
11:58 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature
  
  
  
  
Lance Muir wrote:
  
  
  
  Iz:you
may need to nuance or, clarify a bit so as not to
elicit too resounding an Amen from DaveH.
  
  DAVEH: AMENto
both of your
comments.
  
  
  

- Original Message
- 


From: ShieldsFamily



To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Sent: August 21,
2004 14:29


Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature




Jesus became
like us so that we could
become like Him. Izzy


  
  
  

  
  


-- 
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain Five email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature]







  Shame
on you. If you would sit down and really take a good long look at
both passages, you would, I think, see why I say some of the things I
say. 
  
But to answer your question, Paul is not talking about the Old Law in
Ro 2:12 --16 except to use it as an illustration that any law is in
view. A Gentile would, typically, not be a keeper of the Mosaical
System. 
  
What do you think happens to the Gentile in outer Mongolia who has
never heard the gospel and then dies? I have an answer (Ro 2"12-16)
and you do not. 
  
DAVEH: John..would you mind elaborating a bit more on how vs
12-16 help this Mongolian who dies without hearing the gospel, please?

John
  
  

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature





DAVEH: Hm..after thinking about it, Izzy.I've got a better
reply than my earlier comment.


  
  
ShieldsFamily wrote:
  







I didnt say
BECOME Him. J Iz

  

DAVEH:  Nor did I, Izzy. As the Bible teaches though, it is our
destiny to become one WITH him.

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

2004-08-22 Thread ShieldsFamily









DaveH, what do you think that means? Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Hansen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004
10:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature





DAVEH: Hm..after thinking about it,
Izzy.I've got a better reply than my earlier comment.




ShieldsFamily wrote:



I didnt say BECOME Him. J Iz

DAVEH:  Nor did I, Izzy. As
the Bible teaches though, it is our destiny to become one WITH him.




-- ~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain Five email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature




Why not check out perichoresis site? Things can be 
read and heard. Following that 'one' could offer an informed opinion. (excluding 
Judy, of course as she has written off an Incarnational/Trinitarian 
understanding of God and His Gospel) PS-The Gospel of Grace is everywhere 
present in the 'older' Testament. Look at the paragraph preceding the decalogue. 
The sainted, much maligned, much missed Bill Taylor outlined all of this in some 
detail.

  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 20, 2004 12:55
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  
  All your new Kruger 
  mentality gospel without repentance comments of late. 
  Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:17 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  In a message dated 8/19/2004 
  6:26:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  John, 
  I cant believe ityouve gone over to the dark side. What name do you give 
  your new philosophy? Izzy
  Referencing 
  what?J

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

1. Are you self-identifying? 2. If you truly think
so then, I'd like very much hearing (reading) your clear explanation of 6-8
parables.

- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: August 20, 2004 12:52
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians'
authority over nature

BTW, Jonathan, I
never said that a particular parable was the key to understanding the
gospel. But JESUS said, in Mark 4:
11And He was
saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but
those who are outside get everything in parables,
12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT
PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY
MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN." 13And He said
to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the
parables?
If I may translate:
The parables are the Gospel for Dummies who dont get it.
Izzy

From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:13
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians'
authority over nature

In a message dated 8/19/2004
6:22:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Greetings
all,
Just
a quick note.
The
parable of the sower or any parable for that matter is NOT the key to
understanding the gospel. The key to understanding the gospel is Jesus
Christ Himself. We must always allow God to disclose Himself to us apart
from our own bias. When we take a passage and thrust it out as our
hermeneutic (especially for something as important as the gospel) we apply our
own spin to it. If we allow God to disclose Himself to us, on His terms,
we can be much more confident in what we are promoting. When one says Jesus Christ, one says God, one says
humanity, and one says God and humanity together. Much is
contained in that sentence. Much is contained in Jesus! By
starting with Jesus, with who He was and is and then working out our doctrines
(i.e. what the gospel is and how it is worked out in our lives) we become
centered on Christ, our eyes correctly fixed on who matters (1 Cor 2:2, Heb
12:2). To sum up, when we start with a doctrine (a parable, a verse, a
passage) and use it to interpret the rest of what we believe we have created
our own faith. If we start with Jesus, and who He is, and interpret our
doctrines through Him then you are on safe ground (for the reason that it is
not your ground; it is holy ground). The word (scripture) must always be
subservient to the Word (Christ). To switch these around is to fall into
error. Christians need to be constantly reminded that the fullest source
of revelation from God to us has not been the Bible, but rather Himself in the
Person of His Son (Col 1:15-20). To Christ be the glory.
Amen.
Jonathan

This
paragraph is just great. First century Christians had no choice but to
start with Jesus since the biblical message was not even close to being what
it is today. That last sentence really gets to the heart of the
discussion. John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)




As I read you it is apparent that your own sense of 
'right and wrong' is informed by family, society and religious tradition.I do 
believe that God, Who embodies 'right  wrong' ontologically, does break 
through to you (us) from time. As I listen to some of you flag-waving nut cases 
I cannot help but notice what political bondage you are in.--- 
Original Message - 

  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 20, 2004 12:34
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)
  
  
  Lance, Why? 
  Scripturally, what basis do you have to disbelieve God can inform our 
  conscience between right and wrong? Do you believe there IS a right and wrong? 
  Please dont ignore my questions as usual, but answer, as I would like to know 
  what you mean. Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:34 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)
  
  
  I believe the 'conscience' is 
  'constructed' socially. I do not believe that the 'conscience' of humankind is 
  informed by God.
  

- Original Message - 


From: Slade 
Henson 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: August 
19, 2004 18:15

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 
1.12-16)


Romans 1.12-16  a passage rather hard 
to encapsulate in a quick note.

I think v.12 speak of those who live 
outside the framework of Torah. I.e., without the Law -or- under the 
law = outside the framework of 
Torah

In v.13, hearers of Torah (rather than 
readers, because of the rarity of Torah scrolls at the time) learned and 
memorized Torah when it was read aloud. However, if they refused to do what 
it said, they are sinners who will eventually die 
sinful.

Verses 14-16 are quite a mouthful. To 
stress the importance of deeds over head-knowledge of Torah or status as a 
Jew, Shaul pointedly speaks of Gentiles, who by definition dont have Torah 
but nevertheless do naturally what Torah requires, as being for themselves 
already Torah because their lives show that the conduct Torah dictates is 
written on their heart. That non-Jews have knowledge of the eternal moral 
Law of God set forth in Torah is further proved when they come to explicit 
and conscious faith in God  on a day when God passes judgment on peoples 
inmost secrets, which, (according to the Gospel as Shaul proclaims it and as 
Yeshua Himself proclaimed it) he does through the Messiah Yeshua. On the 
day people come to faith they at last admit God was right and they were 
wrong. Some of their behavior may prove not blameworthy, so that their 
consciences sometimes defend them; but some of their behavior they will then 
perceive is falling short of Gods standard, and their consciences will 
accuse them.

-Original 
Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 5:31 
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
authority over nature

I only 
wish we could get commentary from Slade and David Miller on this 
scripture. I think you would find a whole different set of eyes 
seeing the meaning here. 
Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)

John:Yes indeed.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: August 20, 2004 17:50
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)
  In a message dated 8/20/2004 4:37:05 AM Pacific 
  Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  believe the 'conscience' is 'constructed' socially. I do not 
believe that the 'conscience' of humankind is informed by 
  God.Depends on how you define "conscience" or what you include 
  in that concept. There is an emotional trigger within each of us that 
  goes off when we violate our sense of right and wrong. 
  "Our sense of right and wrong" is what, I think, you are referring to and I 
  agree with this. When baseball season comes on, and I coach kids 
  baseball, I often wear the same hat in exactly the same way every time we have 
  a game. When I do not or cannot follow this pattern of activity, I 
  feel bad. -- just as I do when I harshly criticize by wife. That is the 
  socialisation of the conscience (correct?). But the trigger 
  is a part of our creation. And it has it's 
  limitations. It never goes off when we fail to do something that 
  is "wrong." I know it might sound silly, but a bank robbers never 
  wakes up feeling bad because he did not rob some bank yesterday. This 
  trigger only works one way -- in support of perceived goodness. 
  John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature




Second Adam = Assumption of first Adam's nature 
then redeeming it through 'spirit-empowered' obedience (i.e.fulfilment of the 
Abrahamic Covenant 'the unassumed is unhealed') This has been referred to as the 
'double movement of God' God to man(kind)  man(kind) to God (both by 
God)

  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 20, 2004 16:16
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  In a message dated 8/19/2004 8:00:30 AM Pacific 
  Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  First 
Adam = fallen fleshSecond Adam = Lifegiving SpiritApparently one redundancy deserves 
  another. JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Did I detect a smile in your words there Judy? Good
for you. Ever think of taking a run at 'open mike night' at the local comedy
club?- Original Message -

From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: August 20, 2004 16:37
Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians'
authority over nature

Same ol, same ol. It's always me personally and my
presentation. Sadly you refuse todeal withtruth Lance. I am
not the problem, neither am I personally the author of 1 Thess 5:23, or
Hebrews 4:12 - However, they dosay the same thing every time I read
them. Ephesians 6:17 teaches us thatthe "sword of the spirit" is
the Word of God and Revelation 1:16 Gives us a picture of the return of
Christ. He will have a sharp two edged sword coming out of His
mouth. Wonder if this is the same sword that divides between soul
and spirit? You can stay a "talking head" with a body if you want to
and I'll keep on calling things what God calls them. You seem to have a problem with that but Oophs! I forgot,
I've got the static gospel and you have the dynamic one. jt

Lance wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jt:Gnostic thy name is Judy. Judy: you're a great
researcher (truly) so, please read Jonathan's post (sites listed) find out
what they say TOT (then and only then) 'launch' your usual
attack on the one who posted. We're pretty much accustomed to your blanket
dismissals and name calling.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Jonathan: The word (scripture) must always
be subservient to the Word (Christ). To switch these around is to
fall into error. Christians need to be constantly reminded that the
fullest source of revelation from God to us has not been the Bible, but
rather Himself in the Person of His Son (Col 1:15-20). To Christ be
the glory. Amen.
This paragraph is just great. First century Christians had no choice but to start with
Jesus since the biblical message was not even close to being what
it is today. That last sentence really gets to the heart of
the discussion. John

jt: Before His ascension Jesus revealed himself
to his followers through the Psalms and the Prophets (Luke 24:44,45). And
apparently Paul's ministry consisted of the same since he spent his time
persuading people concerning Jesus out of the law of Moses and out of the
prophets from morning till evening (Acts 28:23b). So what about this
"other" Jesus. How do you know what Jesus thisis.Could
be he is a gnostic Jesus or he could just be a figment of your own
imagination. The REAL Jesus, Jesus of Nazareth, Yeshua IS the Word
of God and this Jesus is the Door. Be not deceived, ALL others are
thieves and robbers.

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature




Jeff:Sticking to the Bible  doctrine are not 
mutually exclusive. You do know that, right?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jeff 
  Powers 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 20, 2004 18:53
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  Terry
  If this is the spoonful of truth that you fed me and I 
  in your words,"spat out" I have to reply that there is a grain of truth here, 
  then you resorted to doctrine. Not Biblical truth. So, now I'll ask you 
  directly to explain the Bet Din (the council)in Acts 15. Please 
  stick to the Bible, no doctrine. Explain the ruling of this council and pay 
  very close attention to verse 21," For from early generations 
  Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath 
  in the synagogues."
   Don't forget Terry, at this time 
  the synagogues were the places of meeting and worshiping for the early 
  "Christians" both the Jewish believers (the evangelists) and the Gentile 
  converts. You see, from my perspective, it is you who spat out the 
  Biblical truth in favor of man-made doctrine. 
   You said those times are over, how 
  terribly wrong you are. Or is Matt. 5:17-19 missing from your Bible? 
  Jesus said,"Don't misunderstand why I came. I didn't come to 
  abolish the law of Moses (Torah) I came to fulfill it. I assure you 
  until heaven and earth disappear the smallest detail of Gods Torah will remain 
  until its purpose is achieved. So if you break the smallest commandment AND 
  teach others to do the same you will be the least in heaven, and anyone who 
  obeys the Torah of God and teaches others to do likewise will be great in the 
  Kingdom of heaven."
  Heaven and earth are still here, how can the 
  time have ended? It seems to me that your definition of the word 
  "fulfilled" must be that it is garbage and can now be thrown into the 
  trash.
  Jeff
  

  Something 
  you might want to consider Jeff. There was sin and there was a penalty 
  for sin long before Torah. Mankind left the garden with a knowledge of 
  good and evil. Sometime later the law came, and after that, the law was 
  fulfilled. In the meantime, no one was ever able to keep it. It 
  was meant for a people, for a time, for a purpose. Those times are 
  over. Now we live by faith, evidenced by love and obedience 
  (Works).Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

In a message dated 8/21/2004 2:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Why not check out perichoresis site? Things can be read and heard. Following that 'one' could offer an informed opinion. (excluding Judy, of course as she has written off an Incarnational/Trinitarian understanding of God and His Gospel) PS-The Gospel of Grace is everywhere present in the 'older' Testament. Look at the paragraph preceding the decalogue. The sainted, much maligned, much missed Bill Taylor outlined all of this in some detail.


How do I access the archieves?

JDavid

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Smits:Just do a google search.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: August 21, 2004 10:43
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  In a message dated 8/21/2004 2:43:05 AM Pacific 
  Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Why not check out perichoresis site? Things can be read and 
heard. Following that 'one' could offer an informed opinion. (excluding 
Judy, of course as she has written off an Incarnational/Trinitarian 
understanding of God and His Gospel) PS-The Gospel of Grace is everywhere 
present in the 'older' Testament. Look at the paragraph preceding the 
decalogue. The sainted, much maligned, much missed Bill Taylor outlined all 
of this in some detail.How do I access the 
  archieves?JDavid

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









Michael D, Would you mind telling us what
the 20 yr old root was, to give us a concrete example? Izzy















Please
bear with me for an example, Jeff. A close brother in Christ was going through
some devasting business failures for seemingly no reason (for the scale
involved). I constantly encouraged him to do what I am saying here. After a
couple of years of pointing him there over and over, the Lord was able to show
him the root which was planted some twenty years ago. He was stunned when the
Lord told him about it. He could not believe something so seemingly
insignificant could have caused so much distress and faith shortfalls in his
life.

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









John, Thank you for clarifying.
Kruger sees the cross (and forgiveness it provides) simply as fringe benefits
of the gospel; this is the centerpiece of every cult. I am very wary of
any theology that diminishes the need for repentance and holiness, and ignores
the centrality of the Blood of Christ as the crux of our redemption. The
cross is the fulcrum upon which all of the universe is leveraged. Fellowship is
wonderful. But holiness is essential to
true Relationship with Him. Western theology does not see Jesus
as just sitting on the sideline after His job is done. We see Him as ever
interceding for us and enabling us to live sinlessly. Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:40
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature







Izzy, have you read any of my posting to Lance? The biggest problem
I have with Kruger is the issue of obedience, repentance and the
like. But, I am not going to throw out Kruger because I have not
figured this out -- even if I come to disagree with Kruger in some
important aspects, that does not mean that Kruger's thinking is of no
account. What is fascinating to me is his conclusion that community
(fellowship) is at the center of the essence of God. I had never
appreciated the value of believing in a multipersonality Godhead until Kruger's
comment about fellowship That teaching has so many
applications in scripture. Trinity or
Godhead? Before Kruger, I couldn't have cared
less. 

Izzy --- I will not omit repentance or obedience or whatever -- I
will find a place for those things that answers to scripture. I agree
with Paul -- when I think I know something, I do not yet know it as I
ought. Static is out -- dynamic is in. 


 
John




In a message dated 8/20/2004 5:52:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




All your new Kruger
mentality gospel without repentance comments of late. Izzy

 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:17
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature


 

In a message dated 8/19/2004 6:26:28 AM Pacific Daylight
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




John,
I cant believe ityouve gone over to the dark side. What
name do you give your new philosophy? Izzy





Referencing what?

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









Then you should call yourself Sunshine.
Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:51
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians'
authority over nature





In a message dated 8/20/2004 5:53:12 PM Pacific Daylight
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




Oh, Lord, Smithson has
even changed his name! Izzy

 



Stop it, Izzy. A rose is a rose by any other name. 

J

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









John, Paul was referring to the OT Law (or
sometimes Talmud law) whenever he referenced the Law. Most early Christians
were Jews, well associated with the Law. According to Romans, all are judged by
the right and wrong that they know in their hearts, whether from the written
Law or not. Lance is incorrect: God has given us a conscience to know right
from wrong (at least until we have seared it.) Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:48
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature





In a message dated 8/20/2004 5:52:59 PM Pacific Daylight
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




John, Im just trying to hammer out a definition here.
Do you or dont you agree that when Paul was saying Law he was speaking of
the OT Commandments??? Im too busy to curl up by the fireplace. Izzy




Shame
on you. If you would sit down and really take a good long look at
both passages, you would, I think, see why I say some of the things I
say. 

But to answer your question, Paul is not talking about the Old Law in Ro
2:12 --16 except to use it as an illustration that any law is in
view. A Gentile would, typically, not be a keeper of the Mosaical
System. 

What do you think happens to the Gentile in outer Mongolia who has never heard
the gospel and then dies? I have an answer (Ro 212-16) and
you do not. 

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Iz:No I'm not. (keepin 'em short) 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: August 21, 2004 14:09
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature

  John, Paul was 
  referring to the OT Law (or sometimes Talmud law) whenever he referenced the 
  Law. Most early Christians were Jews, well associated with the Law. 
  According to Romans, all are judged by the right and wrong that they know in 
  their hearts, whether from the written Law or not. Lance is incorrect: God has 
  given us a conscience to know right from wrong (at least until we have seared 
  it.) Izzy

  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:48 
  PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature

  In a message dated 8/20/2004 
  5:52:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  John, 
  Im just trying to hammer out a definition here. Do you or dont you 
  agree that when Paul was saying Law he was speaking of the OT 
  Commandments??? Im too busy to curl up by the fireplace. 
  Izzy
  Shame on 
  you. If you would sit down and really take a good long look at 
  both passages, you would, I think, see why I say some of the things I 
  say. But to answer your question, Paul is not 
  talking about the Old Law in Ro 2:12 --16 except to use it as an illustration 
  that any law is in view. A Gentile would, typically, not be 
  a keeper of the Mosaical System. What do you think happens 
  to the Gentile in outer Mongolia who has never heard the gospel and then 
  dies? I have an answer (Ro 2"12-16) and you do not. 
  John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

Iz:No it (the cross) is not central! What IS
central is WHO is on the cross. But, what about that which preceded it (His
life) and, followed it (death, descent, resurrection
ascent)???Hmm? Don't be theologically myopic.

- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: August 21, 2004 14:05
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians'
authority over nature

John, Thank you for
clarifying. Kruger sees the cross (and forgiveness it provides) simply
as fringe benefits of the gospel; this is the centerpiece of every cult.
I am very wary of any theology that diminishes the need for repentance and
holiness, and ignores the centrality of the Blood of Christ as the crux of our
redemption. The cross is the fulcrum upon which all of the universe is
leveraged. Fellowship is wonderful. But holiness is essential to true Relationship with Him.
Western theology does not see Jesus as just sitting on the sideline after
His job is done. We see Him as ever interceding for us and enabling us
to live sinlessly. Izzy

From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 9:40
PMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians'
authority over nature

Izzy, have you read any of
my posting to Lance? The biggest problem I have with Kruger is the
issue of obedience, repentance and the like. But, I am not going
to throw out Kruger because I have not figured this out -- even if I
come to disagree with Kruger in some important aspects, that does not mean
that Kruger's thinking is of no account. What is fascinating to me
is his conclusion that community (fellowship) is at the center of the essence
of God. I had never appreciated the value of believing in a
multipersonality Godhead until Kruger's comment about "fellowship"
That teaching has so many applications in scripture. "Trinity" or
"Godhead?" Before Kruger, I couldn't have cared less.
Izzy --- I will not omit repentance or obedience or whatever
-- I will find a place for those things that answers to scripture.
I agree with Paul -- when I think I know something, I do not yet know it
as I ought. Static is out -- dynamic is in.
JohnIn a message dated
8/20/2004 5:52:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
All
your new Kruger mentality gospel without repentance comments of late.
Izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:17
AMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians'
authority over nature In
a message dated 8/19/2004 6:26:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John, I cant
believe ityouve gone over to the dark side. What name do you give your new
philosophy? IzzyReferencing
what?

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)









Perry, Please whip Lance with something
for his ad hominum attack on myself. Thank you. Izzy 

PS Lance you are so open minded
your brains have fallen out. 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004
3:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)







As I read you it is apparent that your own sense of 'right
and wrong' is informed by family, society and religious tradition.I do believe
that God, Who embodies 'right  wrong' ontologically, does break through to
you (us) from time. As I listen to some of you flag-waving nut cases I cannot help but
notice what political bondage you are in.--- Original
Message - 







From: ShieldsFamily






To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Sent: August 20, 2004
12:34





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)









Lance, Why? Scripturally, what basis do
you have to disbelieve God can inform our conscience between
right and wrong? Do you believe there IS a right and wrong? Please dont
ignore my questions as usual, but answer, as I would like to know what you
mean. Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:34
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)







I believe the 'conscience' is 'constructed' socially. I do
not believe that the 'conscience' of humankind is informed by God.







- Original Message - 





From: Slade
Henson 





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Sent: August 19, 2004
18:15





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)









Romans 1.12-16  a passage rather hard to
encapsulate in a quick note.



I think v.12 speak of those who live outside the
framework of Torah. I.e., without the Law -or- under the
law = outside the framework of Torah



In v.13, hearers of Torah (rather than readers,
because of the rarity of Torah scrolls at the time) learned and memorized Torah
when it was read aloud. However, if they refused to do what it said, they are
sinners who will eventually die sinful.



Verses 14-16 are quite a mouthful. To stress the
importance of deeds over head-knowledge of Torah or status as a Jew, Shaul
pointedly speaks of Gentiles, who by definition dont have Torah but
nevertheless do naturally what Torah requires, as being for themselves already
Torah because their lives show that the conduct Torah dictates is written on
their heart. That non-Jews have knowledge of the eternal moral Law of God set
forth in Torah is further proved when they come to explicit and conscious faith
in God  on a day when God passes judgment on peoples inmost
secrets, which, (according to the Gospel as Shaul proclaims it and as Yeshua
Himself proclaimed it) he does through the Messiah Yeshua. On the day
people come to faith they at last admit God was right and they were wrong. Some
of their behavior may prove not blameworthy, so that their consciences
sometimes defend them; but some of their behavior they will then perceive is
falling short of Gods standard, and their consciences will accuse them.



-Original
Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004
5:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature



I only wish we could get
commentary from Slade and David Miller on this scripture. I think you
would find a whole different set of eyes seeing the meaning here.
Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature









Jesus became like us so that we could
become like Him. Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004
4:18 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature







Second Adam = Assumption of first Adam's nature then
redeeming it through 'spirit-empowered' obedience (i.e.fulfilment of the
Abrahamic Covenant 'the unassumed is unhealed') This has been referred to as
the 'double movement of God' God to man(kind)  man(kind) to God (both by
God)







From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 





Sent: August 20, 2004
16:16





Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Christians' authority over nature









In a message dated 8/19/2004 8:00:30
AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:




First Adam = fallen flesh
Second Adam = Lifegiving Spirit



Apparently one redundancy deserves another. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature




Iz:Methinks you miss the point (seriously). You and 
that other lady do that a lot. I wish to show no more disrespect than what is 
called for but(wilfull ignorance vs plain old ignorance?) 
Duhh

Even a smart mouth like myself doesn't appreciate 
ignorance from a self-professed 'mature' believer.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 21, 2004 14:51
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  
  Duh! Like, I know 
  that, Lance. But do you? Iz
  
  
  
  Iz:No it (the cross) is not central! What IS 
  central is WHO is on the cross.

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature




Iz:you may need to nuance or, clarify a bit so as 
not to elicit too resounding an Amen from DaveH.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 21, 2004 14:29
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  
  Jesus became like us 
  so that we could become like Him. Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 4:18 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  
  Second Adam = Assumption of first 
  Adam's nature then redeeming it through 'spirit-empowered' obedience 
  (i.e.fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant 'the unassumed is unhealed') This 
  has been referred to as the 'double movement of God' God to man(kind)  
  man(kind) to God (both by God)
  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: August 
20, 2004 16:16

Subject: Re: 
[TruthTalk] Christians' authority over 
nature


In a 
message dated 8/19/2004 8:00:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
First 
Adam = fallen fleshSecond 
Adam = Lifegiving Spirit
Apparently 
one redundancy deserves another. JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)




Iz:If you're gonna wrap yourself in the good old 
red, white  blue I'm sure it will protect you from mere verbal assaults 
from a whimpy lib like me.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: August 21, 2004 14:28
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)
  
  
  Perry, Please whip 
  Lance with something for his ad hominum attack on myself. Thank you. 
  Izzy 
  PS Lance you are so 
  open minded your brains have fallen out. 
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 3:54 
  AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)
  
  
  As I read you it is apparent that 
  your own sense of 'right and wrong' is informed by family, society and 
  religious tradition.I do believe that God, Who embodies 'right  wrong' 
  ontologically, does break through to you (us) from time. As I listen to some 
  of you flag-waving nut 
  cases I cannot help but notice what political bondage you are 
  in.--- Original Message - 
  

From: ShieldsFamily 


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Sent: August 
20, 2004 12:34

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 
1.12-16)


Lance, Why? 
Scripturally, what basis do you have to disbelieve God can inform our 
conscience between right and wrong? Do you believe there IS a right and 
wrong? Please dont ignore my questions as usual, but answer, as I would 
like to know what you mean. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:34 
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)


I believe the 'conscience' is 
'constructed' socially. I do not believe that the 'conscience' of humankind 
is informed by God.

  
  - Original Message - 
  
  
  From: Slade 
  Henson 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  
  Sent: 
  August 19, 2004 18:15
  
  Subject: RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 
  1.12-16)
  
  
  Romans 1.12-16  a passage rather 
  hard to encapsulate in a quick note.
  
  I think v.12 speak of those who live 
  outside the framework of Torah. I.e., without the Law -or- under the 
  law = outside the framework of 
  Torah
  
  In v.13, hearers of Torah (rather 
  than readers, because of the rarity of Torah scrolls at the time) learned 
  and memorized Torah when it was read aloud. However, if they refused to do 
  what it said, they are sinners who will eventually die 
  sinful.
  
  Verses 14-16 are quite a mouthful. To 
  stress the importance of deeds over head-knowledge of Torah or status as a 
  Jew, Shaul pointedly speaks of Gentiles, who by definition dont have 
  Torah but nevertheless do naturally what Torah requires, as being for 
  themselves already Torah because their lives show that the conduct Torah 
  dictates is written on their heart. That non-Jews have knowledge of the 
  eternal moral Law of God set forth in Torah is further proved when they 
  come to explicit and conscious faith in God  on a day when God passes 
  judgment on peoples inmost secrets, which, (according to the Gospel as 
  Shaul proclaims it and as Yeshua Himself proclaimed it) he does through 
  the Messiah Yeshua. On the day people come to faith they at last admit God 
  was right and they were wrong. Some of their behavior may prove not 
  blameworthy, so that their consciences sometimes defend them; but some of 
  their behavior they will then perceive is falling short of Gods standard, 
  and their consciences will accuse 
them.
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  ShieldsFamilySent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 5:31 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians' 
  authority over nature
  
  I 
  only wish we could get commentary from Slade and David Miller on this 
  scripture. I think you would find a whole different set of eyes 
  seeing the meaning here. 
  Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)




Kool again

Smittyson

In a message dated 8/21/2004 3:15:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John:Yes indeed.
 
- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: August 20, 2004 17:50
 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)
 

In a message dated 8/20/2004 4:37:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

believe the 'conscience' is 'constructed' socially. I do not believe that the 'conscience' of humankind is informed by God.


Depends on how you define "conscience" or what you include in that concept. There is an emotional trigger within each of us that goes off when we violate our sense of right and wrong. "Our sense of right and wrong" is what, I think, you are referring to and I agree with this. When baseball season comes on, and I coach kids baseball, I often wear the same hat in exactly the same way every time we have a game. When I do not or cannot follow this pattern of activity, I feel bad. -- just as I do when I harshly criticize by wife. That is the socialisation of the conscience (correct?). But the trigger is a part of our creation. And it has it's limitations. It never goes off when we fail to do something that is "wrong." I know it might sound silly, but a bank robbers never wakes up feeling bad because he did not rob some bank yesterday. This trigger only works one way -- in support of perceived goodness. 

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)

In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:48:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John: When baseball season comes on, and I coach kids baseball, I often wear the same hat in exactly the same way every time we have a game. When I do not or cannot follow this pattern of activity, I feel bad. 
 
jt: Some social or obsessive compulsive thing


The really fantastic thing about this obsessive complusive thing is that it WORKS. We win every single time I wear the hat exactly right -- every time. Say it with me now -- "I believe." 

Reverend Smithson

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:59:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Second Adam = Assumption of first Adam's nature 
 
jt: Where in all of scripture is the basis for the above presumption? He took upon Himself the "form" of man
 which is a body. He became flesh and blood like us, experienced the weariness and other limitations of flesh.


He doesn't need to find a scripture that says it -- just one that is close and then he can add the necessary wording to make it right. 

brother John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

In a message dated 8/21/2004 8:33:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Smits:Just do a google search.


Se.

Juan

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature (Romans 1.12-16)

In a message dated 8/21/2004 9:00:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

No need for Toronto. Just bring in Jimmy Carter..He's got a Nobel prize you know!! 


Yeah, he brought peace to Middle East. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

In a message dated 8/21/2004 11:05:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John, Thank you for clarifying. Kruger sees the cross (and forgiveness it provides) simply as fringe benefits of the gospel; this is the centerpiece of every cult.

I have not read this in Kruger. I no longer consider the doctrine of the Cross. I have no questions about it. What I see in the continual flow of the blood of the Lamb is no longer an open consideration. Don't forget, I am one of the pesky saved by grace through faith guys -- the Cross is critical to that position.

I am very wary of any theology that diminishes the need for repentance
and holiness, and ignores the centrality of the Blood of Christ as the crux of our redemption.

Repentance is our redirection as we begin our deliberate walk with God through Christ; holiness if equated with "righteousness" is a gift from God throught the faith of Christ.

The cross is the fulcrum upon which all of the universe is leveraged.

Pretty ambitous thought. Did you have a specific scripture? I like the thought.

Fellowship is wonderful. But holiness is essential to true Relationship with Him.

If we understand that holiness is a gift (He sees our faith and credits it as if it were righteousness) then, and only then -- yes.

Western theology does not see Jesus as just sitting on the sideline after
His job is done. We see Him as ever interceding for us and enabling us to live sinlessly. Izzy

Don't forget the continual flow of his blood sacrifice and what that forces us to realize and confess.

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature

In a message dated 8/21/2004 11:18:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Iz:No it (the cross) is not central! What IS central is WHO is on the cross. But, what about that which preceded it (His life) and, followed it (death, descent, resurrection ascent)???Hmm? Don't be theologically myopic.


Symbolism over substance.

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Christians' authority over nature