Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
Judy: We continue to pray for Jenna, also. Our Home Church group meets tonight, and she will definitely be in our prayers. Please keep us informed of her progress. Terry and Vee ShieldsFamily wrote: We are standing with you and Jenna, Judy. Iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello JudyT: Thanks for the response. bear in mind that I am just now thinking this through. I write as emphatic as many on this forum. But understand that this is a new thought for me and I am working it out. My comments are after yours, below. John --- How is Jenna? Thanks for asking John, I just spoke with our daughter in TX and Jenna is still in the ICU, she has been there since last Friday. Today they did a CAT scan and found a pocket of bacterial colitis in her bowel, she also has the pancreatitis (inflamed pacreas) so she can't eat or drink. She sleeps a lot - is off the ventilater for now. They are trying to get her body to rest as much as possible so that it can heal. We are so relieved that we haven't lost her - it has been touch and go for the past few days - also she is starting to lose her hair. I want to thank all who have been remembering Jenna in prayer, judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
In a message dated 7/20/2004 8:57:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bill:I take it back. Now that you've identified Chris as 'Christ', I believe we've found our teacher. To borrow an _expression_ from Chris via Scripture-HALLALUJAH! - Original Message - From: Wm. Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 20, 2004 11:44 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees Sounds great, Christ. I am very interested. Bill Frankly, I was a little shocked at this observation, also. I'll have to think about this. JSmithson
Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
In a message dated 7/20/2004 8:38:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks for asking John, I just spoke with our daughter in TX and Jenna is still in the ICU, she has been there since last Friday. Today they did a CAT scan and found a pocket of bacterial colitis in her bowel, she also has the pancreatitis (inflamed pacreas) so she can't eat or drink. She sleeps a lot - is off the ventilater for now. They are trying to get her body to rest as much as possible so that it can heal. We are so relieved that we haven't lost her - it has been touch and go for the past few days - also she is starting to lose her hair. I want to thank all who have been remembering Jenna in prayer, judyt This sounds much more serious than I had supposed. I am sure you have a number of brethren praying for Jenna. I fully intend on spending most of the afternoon twisting God's ear on this one myself -- not that He listens to my counsel but I am one of His and I want to participate in this circumstance. Like the preacher once said: miracle don't happen as often as we would prefer but more often than we think. May God bless Jenna with health and her family with a strong sense of God's partnership. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
Oh dear! please forgive me.
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:54
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
Bill:I take it back. Now that you've identified
Chris as 'Christ', I believe we've found our teacher. To borrow an _expression_
from Chris via Scripture-HALLALUJAH!
- Original Message -
From:
Wm.
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: July 20, 2004 11:44
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
Sounds great, Christ. I am very
interested.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Chris Barr
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:38
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
\o/ !HALALU Yah!
\o/
Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !
I am in general agreement with jt on this one. One exception
would be that 'foundation of the world' does not refer to creation.
These words are first recorded in Scripture as coming right from the mouth
of The Saviour. It is used after that by many others. It
occurs ten times in total. There are not too many phrases (if any)
that occur more often. This phrase is one of the secret treasures of
The Almighty. The phrase actually refers to original sin.
I have a detailed study on this sensational subject and will post it
in 7 parts for those who can handle some serious
meat.
Ahava b'
YahShua
(Love in The
SAVIOUR)
Baruch YHVH,
(Bless The
LORD)
Chris Barr
a servant
of YHVH
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07/20/2004 7:42 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that
when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this
whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and,
after "the fall," became like all those who would come after
him. Oh my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I
am not sure where I am going with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you
have it in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God.
He was first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual
lineage came was made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than
God).The fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden
indicates to me that Adam was created a mortal being. The
fact that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was in the garden is
an indication that he already had a nature that was given to
sinning -- it just hadn't happened yet.
jt: What would
make you assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are
you saying that God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God
is a physical being rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically
looking like God outwardly?
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc
before "the fall." But where there is no law, there is no
definition for sin --- especially character
flaws.
jt: H! He
named all the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required
to work and eat by the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part
of the curse see Genesis 3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse
which was Genesis 2:17 which reads in the original "in the day you
eat of it in dying (spiritually) you shall die"
(physically).
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but
that we own a share of personal responsibility ("..and death passed
upon all men because all have sinned.")
jt: We share
Adam's death mortally because of the fall; however our own personal
responsibility as per Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we
are born with an inheritance in the first Adam but are responsible for
our own sin as Ezekiel 18 makes clear.Perhaps the point
of the Cross beginning with Adam is this: humans were never going
to
RE: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
We are standing with you and Jenna, Judy. Iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello JudyT: Thanks for the response. bear in mind that I am just now thinking this through. I write as emphatic as many on this forum. But understand that this is a new thought for me and I am working it out. My comments are after yours, below. John --- How is Jenna? Thanks for asking John, I just spoke with our daughter in TX and Jenna is still in the ICU, she has been there since last Friday. Today they did a CAT scan and found a pocket of bacterial colitis in her bowel, she also has the pancreatitis (inflamed pacreas) so she can't eat or drink. She sleeps a lot - is off the ventilater for now. They are trying to get her body to rest as much as possible so that it can heal. We are so relieved that we haven't lost her - it has been touch and go for the past few days - also she is starting to lose her hair. I want to thank all who have been remembering Jenna in prayer, judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
\o/ !HALALU
Yah! \o/
Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !
THANX, Bill .. you do me honor -- in more
ways than one ...
- Original Message -
From: Wm. Taylor
Sent: 07/20/2004 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
Sounds great,
Christ. I am very interested.
Bill
You might be surprised how often I am
addressed as 'Christ'. It always brings a smile to my face ... and a roll
of the eyes from my humbling helpmeet.
Ahava b'
YahShua
(Love in The
SAVIOUR)
Baruch
YHVH,
(Bless The
LORD)
Chris Barr
a servant of
YHVH
- Original Message -
From:
Wm. Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07/20/2004 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
Sounds great, Christ. I am very
interested.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Chris Barr
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:38
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
\o/ !HALALU Yah!
\o/
Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !
I am in general agreement with jt on this one. One exception
would be that 'foundation of the world' does not refer to creation.
These words are first recorded in Scripture as coming right from the mouth
of The Saviour. It is used after that by many others. It occurs
ten times in total. There are not too many phrases (if any) that occur
more often. This phrase is one of the secret treasures of The
Almighty. The phrase actually refers to original sin.
I have a detailed study on this sensational subject and will post it in
7 parts for those who can handle some serious
meat.
Ahava b'
YahShua
(Love in The
SAVIOUR)
Baruch
YHVH,
(Bless The
LORD)
Chris Barr
a servant of
YHVH
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07/20/2004 7:42 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say
that when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about
this whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and,
after "the fall," became like all those who would come after
him. Oh my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I
am not sure where I am going with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you have
it in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was
first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came
was made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than
God).The fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden
indicates to me that Adam was created a mortal being. The fact
that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was in the garden is an
indication that he already had a nature that was given to sinning --
it just hadn't happened yet.
jt: What would make
you assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are you
saying that God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God is a
physical being rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically
looking like God outwardly?
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc before
"the fall." But where there is no law, there is no definition
for sin --- especially character
flaws.
jt: H! He named
all the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required to work
and eat by the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part of the
curse see Genesis 3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse which was
Genesis 2:17 which reads in the original "in the day you eat of it in
dying (spiritually) you shall die" (physically).
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but
that we own a share of personal responsibility ("..and death passed
upon all men because all have sinned.")
jt: We share Adam's
death mortally because of the fall; however our own personal
responsibility as per Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we are
born with an inheritance in the first Adam but are responsible for our own
sin as Ezekiel 18 makes clear.Perhaps the point of the
Cross beginning with Adam is this: humans were never going to be
able to inherit the kingdom of Heaven apart from the process of
Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
Bill:I take it back. Now that you've identified
Chris as 'Christ', I believe we've found our teacher. To borrow an _expression_
from Chris via Scripture-HALLALUJAH!
- Original Message -
From:
Wm. Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: July 20, 2004 11:44
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
Sounds great, Christ. I am very
interested.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Chris Barr
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:38
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
\o/ !HALALU Yah!
\o/
Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !
I am in general agreement with jt on this one. One exception
would be that 'foundation of the world' does not refer to creation.
These words are first recorded in Scripture as coming right from the mouth
of The Saviour. It is used after that by many others. It occurs
ten times in total. There are not too many phrases (if any) that occur
more often. This phrase is one of the secret treasures of The
Almighty. The phrase actually refers to original sin.
I have a detailed study on this sensational subject and will post it in
7 parts for those who can handle some serious
meat.
Ahava b'
YahShua
(Love in The
SAVIOUR)
Baruch
YHVH,
(Bless The
LORD)
Chris Barr
a servant of
YHVH
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07/20/2004 7:42 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say
that when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about
this whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and,
after "the fall," became like all those who would come after
him. Oh my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I
am not sure where I am going with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you have
it in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was
first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came
was made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than
God).The fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden
indicates to me that Adam was created a mortal being. The fact
that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was in the garden is an
indication that he already had a nature that was given to sinning --
it just hadn't happened yet.
jt: What would make
you assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are you
saying that God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God is a
physical being rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically
looking like God outwardly?
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc before
"the fall." But where there is no law, there is no definition
for sin --- especially character
flaws.
jt: H! He named
all the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required to work
and eat by the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part of the
curse see Genesis 3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse which was
Genesis 2:17 which reads in the original "in the day you eat of it in
dying (spiritually) you shall die" (physically).
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but
that we own a share of personal responsibility ("..and death passed
upon all men because all have sinned.")
jt: We share Adam's
death mortally because of the fall; however our own personal
responsibility as per Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we are
born with an inheritance in the first Adam but are responsible for our own
sin as Ezekiel 18 makes clear.Perhaps the point of the
Cross beginning with Adam is this: humans were never going to be
able to inherit the kingdom of Heaven apart from the process of
reconciliation.
jt: The first two
humans were living in it - they were in the Garden of God with access to
the Tree of Life. Why would they need to inherit
it?
It is not that Adam "blew it" for the rest of us.
Rather (perhaps) it is that from the beginning, the created being
(mankind) was going to need provision from the creator in
Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
Sounds great, Christ. I am very
interested.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Chris Barr
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:38
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
\o/ !HALALU Yah!
\o/
Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !
I am in general agreement with jt on this one. One exception would
be that 'foundation of the world' does not refer to creation. These
words are first recorded in Scripture as coming right from the mouth of The
Saviour. It is used after that by many others. It occurs ten times
in total. There are not too many phrases (if any) that occur more
often. This phrase is one of the secret treasures of The Almighty.
The phrase actually refers to original sin.
I have a detailed study on this sensational subject and will post it in 7
parts for those who can handle some serious
meat.
Ahava b'
YahShua
(Love in The
SAVIOUR)
Baruch
YHVH,
(Bless The
LORD)
Chris Barr
a servant of
YHVH
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07/20/2004 7:42 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] The Two
Trees
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that when,
in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this whole
business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and, after
"the fall," became like all those who would come after him. Oh
my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I am not sure where I am
going with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you have it
in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was
first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came was
made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than God).The
fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden indicates to me that Adam was
created a mortal being. The fact that the "Tree of Knowledge of
Good and Evil" was in the garden is an indication that he already had a
nature that was given to sinning -- it just hadn't happened
yet.
jt: What would make
you assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are you
saying that God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God is a
physical being rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically looking
like God outwardly?
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc before
"the fall." But where there is no law, there is no definition
for sin --- especially character
flaws.
jt: H! He named
all the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required to work
and eat by the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part of the curse
see Genesis 3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse which was Genesis
2:17 which reads in the original "in the day you eat of it in dying
(spiritually) you shall die" (physically).
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but that
we own a share of personal responsibility ("..and death passed upon all
men because all have sinned.")
jt: We share Adam's
death mortally because of the fall; however our own personal responsibility
as per Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we are born with an
inheritance in the first Adam but are responsible for our own sin as Ezekiel
18 makes clear.Perhaps the point of the Cross beginning with
Adam is this: humans were never going to be able to inherit the
kingdom of Heaven apart from the process of
reconciliation.
jt: The first two
humans were living in it - they were in the Garden of God with access to the
Tree of Life. Why would they need to inherit it?
It is not that Adam "blew it" for the rest of us.
Rather (perhaps) it is that from the beginning, the created being
(mankind) was going to need provision from the creator in order to live
again in a dimension we call "eternity."
jt: Before Adam "blew
it" God had made provision; all of their needs were met and they were living
in the eternal dimension.The scriptures do teach that flesh
and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
jt: Fallen flesh and
blood will never inherit God's Kingdom; we need to read it in balance and
context.
So, the creation process always included the Cross.
jt: No, Jesus was a
lamb slain before the foundation of the world only because of God's
fo
Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
Hello JudyT: Thanks for the response. bear in mind that I am just now thinking this through. I write as emphatic as many on this forum. But understand that this is a new thought for me and I am working it out. My comments are after yours, below.
John --- How is Jenna?
In a message dated 7/20/2004 5:43:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Subj: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
Date: 7/20/2004 5:43:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent from the Internet
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and, after "the fall," became like all those who would come after him. Oh my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I am not sure where I am going with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you have it in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came was made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than God).
Gen 1:26,27 -- I would argue that this passage makes it clear that "mankind" was created in the image of God -- male and female. The reference is not limited to Adam and Eve and, in fact, it is possible that they were not the only created couple. By the time Cain commits his crime, there are so many people on the earth that he is afraid of them.
The fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden indicates to me that Adam was created a mortal being. The fact that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was in the garden is an indication that he already had a nature that was given to sinning -- it just hadn't happened yet.
jt: What would make you assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are you saying that God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God is a physical being rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically looking like God outwardly?
Refer to my comments above. In addition, this "in the image of God" thing does not mean that God is flesh and blood, limited by time and space, with little comparative foresight and subject to a higher power. What does "image of God" mean to you?
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc before "the fall." But where there is no law, there is no definition for sin --- especially character flaws.
jt: H! He named all the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required to work and eat by the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part of the curse see Genesis 3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse which was Genesis 2:17 which reads in the original "in the day you eat of it in dying (spiritually) you shall die" (physically).
Naming animals is hard work? I don't know about that, Judy.
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but that we own a share of personal responsibility ("..and death passed upon all men because all have sinned.")
jt: We share Adam's death mortally because of the fall; however our own personal responsibility as per Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we are born with an inheritance in the first Adam but are responsible for our own sin as Ezekiel 18 makes clear.
Flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Adam's inheritance was nothing apart from the eventual sacrifice of Christ. No man comes to the Father except by me. I am thinking this idea means that God did not create -- could not -- creat a man being that would enjoy eternity without first being partnered in this life with the Son.
Perhaps the point of the Cross beginning with Adam is this: humans were never going to be able to inherit the kingdom of Heaven apart from the process of reconciliation.
jt: The first two humans were living in it - they were in the Garden of God with access to the Tree of Life. Why would they need to inherit it?
Flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The garden was not the Kingdom. I would need some scripture reference or inference on this.
It is not that Adam "blew it" for the rest of us. Rather (perhaps) it is that from the beginning, the created being (mankind) was going to need provision from the creator in order to live again in a dimension we call "eternity."
jt: Before Adam "blew it" God had made provision; all of their needs were met and they were living in the eternal dimension.
The garden was not spiritual -- it was a physical place -- right That is what the text would have us believe.
The scriptures do teach that flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
jt: Fallen flesh and blood will never inherit God's Kingdom; we need to read it in balance and context.
So you are saying that the flesh and blood Adam wa
Re: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
\o/ !HALALU Yah!
\o/
Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !
I am in general agreement with jt on this one. One exception would be
that 'foundation of the world' does not refer to creation. These words are
first recorded in Scripture as coming right from the mouth of The Saviour.
It is used after that by many others. It occurs ten times in total.
There are not too many phrases (if any) that occur more often. This phrase
is one of the secret treasures of The Almighty. The phrase actually refers
to original sin.
I have a detailed study on this sensational subject and will post it in 7
parts for those who can handle some serious
meat.
Ahava b'
YahShua
(Love in The
SAVIOUR)
Baruch
YHVH,
(Bless The
LORD)
Chris Barr
a servant of
YHVH
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07/20/2004 7:42 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] The Two Trees
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that
when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this whole
business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and, after
"the fall," became like all those who would come after him. Oh my
little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I am not sure where I am going
with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you have it
in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was
first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came was
made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than God).The
fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden indicates to me that Adam was
created a mortal being. The fact that the "Tree of Knowledge of
Good and Evil" was in the garden is an indication that he already had a nature
that was given to sinning -- it just hadn't happened
yet.
jt: What would make you
assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are you saying that
God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God is a physical being
rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically looking like God
outwardly?
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc before "the
fall." But where there is no law, there is no definition for
sin --- especially character flaws.
jt: H! He named all
the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required to work and eat
by the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part of the curse see
Genesis 3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse which was Genesis 2:17
which reads in the original "in the day you eat of it in dying
(spiritually) you shall die" (physically).
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but that
we own a share of personal responsibility ("..and death passed upon all
men because all have sinned.")
jt: We share Adam's
death mortally because of the fall; however our own personal responsibility as
per Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we are born with an
inheritance in the first Adam but are responsible for our own sin as Ezekiel
18 makes clear.Perhaps the point of the Cross beginning with
Adam is this: humans were never going to be able to inherit the kingdom
of Heaven apart from the process of reconciliation.
jt: The first two
humans were living in it - they were in the Garden of God with access to the
Tree of Life. Why would they need to inherit it?
It is not that Adam "blew it" for the rest of us.
Rather (perhaps) it is that from the beginning, the created being
(mankind) was going to need provision from the creator in order to live again
in a dimension we call "eternity."
jt: Before Adam "blew
it" God had made provision; all of their needs were met and they were living
in the eternal dimension.The scriptures do teach that flesh and
blood will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
jt: Fallen flesh and
blood will never inherit God's Kingdom; we need to read it in balance and
context.
So, the creation process always included the Cross.
jt: No, Jesus was a
lamb slain before the foundation of the world only because of God's
foreknowledge. He provided a way back, so we have Paradise lost, and Paradise
regained in Christ.
We - Adam included _ have always fallen short of the glory of God and
only in Christ is this solved -- no not "solved" but brought to
fulfillment. We -- Adam included -- were never the
full stature of Christ apart from His indwelling.
jt: Before the
fall Adam was not short of God's glory; he wasn't even deceived like
Eve. He chose the other way of his own volition.
And BTW the two trees
in the garden were not apples and oranges; they are two different kinds of
wisdom. The wisdom from above which is pure p
