Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On 5 July 2011 08:31, Wolfgang tds333...@gmail.com wrote: just to note. If a move is preferred I give +1 for bitbucket (mercurial) I thought it might be worth noting that CherryPy have recently migrated their website from Trac to Bitbucket * https://groups.google.com/group/cherrypy-users/browse_thread/thread/80fa8504a2f247da?pli=1 Perhaps in a few months they will have some information about how successful this has been. Sorry to bring back an old topic and I know there has been a lot of work done recently updating and improving the performance of the Twisted Trac site. -RichardW. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On 12:23 pm, m-li...@the-moon.net wrote: On 5 July 2011 08:31, Wolfgang tds333...@gmail.com wrote: just to note. If a move is preferred I give +1 for bitbucket (mercurial) I thought it might be worth noting that CherryPy have recently migrated their website from Trac to Bitbucket * https://groups.google.com/group/cherrypy- users/browse_thread/thread/80fa8504a2f247da?pli=1 Perhaps in a few months they will have some information about how successful this has been. Sorry to bring back an old topic and I know there has been a lot of work done recently updating and improving the performance of the Twisted Trac site. Improvements to the trac deployment shouldn't be seen as a reason not to consider entirely new solutions. Things can improve incrementally while plans are being made to improve them more drastically. Jean-Paul ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Hi, I actually have contributed a few small patches to Twisted. I've attempted to contribute a few more which never made it in. I intend to contribute more in the future. I prefer launchpad over github because of its issue tracker, especially the ability to crosslink issues which affect more than one project or distribution. Also because the launchpad implementation is open source. But, I'll be happy to use whatever you folks want. Regards, Zooko ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On 07/06/2011 07:19 AM, Kevin Horn wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 12:22 PM, David da...@silveregg.co.jp mailto:da...@silveregg.co.jp wrote: Most people who stay on windows do not find cygwin or even CLI tools an acceptable solution. So, the argument isn't that git is worse on Windows than it is on *nix: it's just that Windows users don't want to use CLI tools? cheers, David cheers lvh Not in my opinion. I find hg, bzr, and svn all easier to use on Windows than git, and I use them all from the command line. But I think you will think the same on unix, that is you will prefer hg/bzr to git on unix as well. I don't think someones will prefer hg over git on windows and prefer git over hg on unix, frankly. As for which is simpler, I think those differences are much more superficial than people want to think, and some concepts introduced in hg/bzr for simplicity sake actually harmful in the long term (e.g. natural revision number, especially as used in bzr). Git UI is not super consistent, but neither is hg as soon as you use e.g. named branches and bookmarks. cheers, David ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 10:15:09PM -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:02 AM, Alessandro Dentella san...@e-den.it wrote: On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 03:42:04AM -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: re: Mercurial, I didn't like it when I used it. If someone can tell me how to do this[3] in hg, I'd be more inclined to play along. And that I do this sort of things using mercurial queues. I pile up patches in a queue and can subsequently navigate in the queue (hg qgoto fix_header1) and fold it with a later one (hg qfold fix_header2). Hm. So it's like quilt? I think so Are patch queues real commits (changesets, revisions, whatever), so I can log and blame and grep them while I'm working? yes for all 3 (log, blame, grep) While the queue is not yet committed I can change the commit log of a patch in a simple way. if the patch is called my_patch1: $ hg goto my_patch1 $ hg qrefresh -e (open editor to change edit log) hg qrefresh alone would just incorporate all modification to working directory in the patch, before committing you can anyhow keep all patches in a separate repository (hg qinit will initialize it for you. I personally don't use it though). If you use such a second repository I guess you can simply share that with other people too, but I'm not using this workflow. hg qnew -f fix1 -m this fixed issue 1 hg qnew -I debian/control -m fix control hg qnew -f fix1.1 -m forgot something in issue 1 hg qgoto fix1 hg qfold fix1.1 # This concatenate the 2 comments hg qrefresh -e # fix your comment as you like it hg qpush hg qfinish -a # commit all queues currently applied Neato. This requires me to be in a queue *before* I fix my patch, right? that's simpler. Otherwise you create a second patch and subsequently fold them toghether. Using a third part application called qct (that works also on git and some other I believe) you can also cherry pick single diffs in a single patch to be incorporated in a changeset. I use this a lot to keep the changeset as clean as possible. [disclaimer] I'm not an expert of git, so my comparison should not be taken seriously. It's true that all the time I use git I find it more convoluted than mercurial, and I always thought it was an historical heritage. sandro *:-) -- Sandro Dentella *:-) http://www.reteisi.org Soluzioni libere per le scuole http://sqlkit.argolinux.orgSQLkit home page - PyGTK/python/sqlalchemy ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:19 AM, Kevin Horn kevin.h...@gmail.com wrote: Also, Git _is_ worse on Windows than it is on *nix. It's just not as bad as it _used_ to be. It's functional. It works. But it is difficult to deal with, and a lot of Windows users I have talked to (as well as myself, of course) just don't like using it. I'm not necessarily saying that that means Twisted shouldn't use Git. But it _should_ be considered as a factor. Kevin Horn Gotcha, thanks. I've been told that hg is a lot more pleasant on Windows, (and you appear to echo that), and hg-git manages to be a damn-near 1:1 mapping. Have you tried that? cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:35 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:19 AM, Kevin Horn kevin.h...@gmail.com wrote: Also, Git _is_ worse on Windows than it is on *nix. It's just not as bad as it _used_ to be. It's functional. It works. But it is difficult to deal with, and a lot of Windows users I have talked to (as well as myself, of course) just don't like using it. I'm not necessarily saying that that means Twisted shouldn't use Git. But it _should_ be considered as a factor. Kevin Horn Gotcha, thanks. I've been told that hg is a lot more pleasant on Windows, (and you appear to echo that), and hg-git manages to be a damn-near 1:1 mapping. Have you tried that? cheers lvh I've been told the same thing, by someone who _really_ didn't want to switch a project to git and got overruled. He indicated that using hg-git pretty much fixed all his complaints. I haven't used it myself, though if I ever need to do any serious work on a large project using git, I certainly intend to. Kevin Horn ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: As some of you may already know (either through a backchannel or because you talked to me at Europython), there has been some talk about moving Twisted way from Trac+SVN to somewhere that isn't Trac+SVN. There are always talks about moving here of there, because people are bored or it _seems_ to them that the other way of doing things is much better, because everybody else praises it. It is hard to resist this opinion. Some people even take it fundamentally - I won't commit, because its not in Git. The worst that it doesn't mean these people will participate if the project is be in Git, but a small percentage will. Problem with Git/Bazaar/Mercurial and DVCS in general is much higher contribution barrier. So, if you want to switch, you need to know _exactly_ why, and more importantly - which features are you going to miss. See below: A lot of the devs do like SVN. My guess is that that's mainly because they don't actually use SVN, they use Combinator, or something. On the other hand, I do think that Trac is pretty universally loathed, and it would be a good idea to get away from it. I believe nobody uses Combinator, because it is dead http://divmod.org/trac/wiki/DivmodCombinator SVN has one major flaw - you can not stack patches on your system naturally when you don't have write access to repository. I believe that's the major complain behind DVCS is better. Second problem - there in no _convenient_ way to share these patches to be reviewed and incorporated upstream. I do not think Trac is universally hated. It is the application one level above Python API as Twisted itself. Trac has its own architecture, different from standard OOP hierarchy. This architecture is not obvious and may be inconvenient to debug and extend. It may be that everybody is tired of Trac design, or Trac doesn't provide review and push/pull integration, but it has some other awesome features. There's a few existing hosting solutions: Launchpad (+ Bazaar as the default vcs) Bitbucket (+ Mercurial as the default vcs) Github (+ Git as the default vcs) I am not sure if the following possible with these services: L G B [ ] [ ] [ ] Project timeline with changes to wiki, tickets, commits etc, [ ] [ ] [ ] Editable issue description (Google Code suxx at this) [ ] [ ] [ ] Commit history navigation from patch view (next/prev buttons) [ ] [ ] [ ] Colored blame history browser [ ] [ ] [ ] Hook scripts for bots and other stuff [ ] [ ] [ ] Full project data export Unless someone is going to go all NO GITHUB IS TERRIBLE AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT on me, maybe we can talk about planning the transition? :) To know if Github is terrible or not, you need some data - examples, use cases. The first step in planning is to look at the current workflow and gather a list of ways current Trac+SVN is used and see where Github has advantages and where it suxx. Usually, people realize the latter when it's too late. As we are all mostly too busy, if you want people to participate in discussions, it will be better to outline the features you need from development workflow and separate discussion with some summary about them into separate thread. Right now I see that there is a thread about reviews and as a Rietveld user, I may have a lot to say about that. =) -- anatoly t. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 09:41:12AM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote: To know if Github is terrible or not, you need some data - examples, use cases. The first step in planning is to look at the current workflow and gather a list of ways current Trac+SVN is used and see where Github has advantages and where it suxx. Usually, people realize the latter when it's too late. As has been mentioned in earlier in this thread: http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/WorkflowRequirements (which I have updated with some of the website requirements that Glyph mentioned in one of his posts). ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Hi, just to note. If a move is preferred I give +1 for bitbucket (mercurial) If you ever want someone contributing under Windows, github with git is not a good solution. For Windows there are good clients for mercurial and bazzar. Git is more a Unix only solution. Launchpad has a horrible and unusable web ui so -1 on that. Also python has moved to mercurial and bitbucket catched up in features to github. Why should we move to a no Python system ? Regards, Wolfgang ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Pretty much all of those can be supported with GitHub: they can POST to a generic website as a commit hook[0], along with a number of other integrated services[1]. The only thing that I can think of is that GitHub issues doesn't have hooks, so we'd have to poll if we wanted an IRC bot for GitHub issues. Thankfully, they have an API for issues[2] that should make it easier. re: Mercurial, I didn't like it when I used it. If someone can tell me how to do this[3] in hg, I'd be more inclined to play along. And that said, I think we'd get a much better reception and amount of contributors if we're on GitHub, if only due to the scale compared to LP/BB. I think we're all familiar with the denied story :). On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:49 AM, Tim Allen screwt...@froup.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 09:41:12AM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote: To know if Github is terrible or not, you need some data - examples, use cases. The first step in planning is to look at the current workflow and gather a list of ways current Trac+SVN is used and see where Github has advantages and where it suxx. Usually, people realize the latter when it's too late. As has been mentioned in earlier in this thread: http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/WorkflowRequirements (which I have updated with some of the website requirements that Glyph mentioned in one of his posts). ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python [0] http://help.github.com/post-receive-hooks/ [1] https://github.com/github/github-services [2] http://developer.github.com/v3/issues/ [3] http://people.gnome.org/~federico/news-2008-08.html#git-rebase-interactive -- Jasper ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 03:42:04AM -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: re: Mercurial, I didn't like it when I used it. If someone can tell me how to do this[3] in hg, I'd be more inclined to play along. And that I do this sort of things using mercurial queues. I pile up patches in a queue and can subsequently navigate in the queue (hg qgoto fix_header1) and fold it with a later one (hg qfold fix_header2). While the queue is not yet committed I can change the commit log of a patch in a simple way. hg qnew -f fix1 -m this fixed issue 1 hg qnew -I debian/control -m fix control hg qnew -f fix1.1 -m forgot something in issue 1 hg qgoto fix1 hg qfold fix1.1 # This concatenate the 2 comments hg qrefresh -e # fix your comment as you like it hg qpush hg qfinish -a # commit all queues currently applied sandro *:-) -- Sandro Dentella *:-) http://www.reteisi.org Soluzioni libere per le scuole http://sqlkit.argolinux.orgSQLkit home page - PyGTK/python/sqlalchemy ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On 5 Jul 2011, at 10:31, Wolfgang wrote: If you ever want someone contributing under Windows, github with git is not a good solution. For Windows there are good clients for mercurial and bazzar. Git is more a Unix only solution. I have no vote on the whole moving off SVN, but as a former windows user I'd like to make it clear that git has absolutely no issues with Windows and it has been so for 3 years now. Either in cygwin or by using the (officially linked from the git home page) msysgit standalone package, you get a completely functional git CLI tool plus a completely functional and awesome gitk graphical interface. I've been using that for a full year (including git-svn) and it's been working completely fine. (Of course it may have other limitations that I'm not aware of, but I haven't come across them). Finally, for what it's worth, for me as a potential contributor to Twisted (I still want to help with documentation) SVN is a much bigger barrier of entry than Trac. Even an official git mirror (complete with branches) that I could work against would be hugely beneficial. Git has a lot of local graphical tools that you can use to search, browse history, do diffs and so on, so that Trac+git can be a viable solution, even without Trac-git integration. Orestis ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Wolfgang tds333...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, If you ever want someone contributing under Windows, github with git is not a good solution. Why not? I know the reasons three years ago (and most of them were either permissions or performance), but I have been assured multiple times that this is no longer the case at all. Also python has moved to mercurial and bitbucket catched up in features to github. Why should we move to a no Python system ? Because the community on Github is significantly larger. At some point, this devolves into bikeshedding. Twisted devs would prefer Launchpad, but many people hate Launchpad with a passion. Between Github and Bitbucket, as you've said yourself, Bitbucket is playing feature catch-up (whether they're doing that successfully or not is something I'm willing to skip discussing). I don't think features are the thing to differentiate the two on (even though I think Github wins because of polish). It's network effects. Github has more following, so it's more interesting. The thing is, it's not so much a vote. This is a do-ocracy. The breaks were I'll move it to Github, *or* someone stops me, not I'll move it to Github, or Bitbucket, or whatever else you folks think is a good idea. If people are going to try and stop me from moving it to Github, I'm not going to move it to Bitbucket or anything else. It's just going to stay Trac/SVN. Regards, Wolfgang cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Orestis Markou ores...@orestis.gr wrote: Finally, for what it's worth, for me as a potential contributor to Twisted (I still want to help with documentation) SVN is a much bigger barrier of entry than Trac. Even an official git mirror (complete with branches) that I could work against would be hugely beneficial. Git has a lot of local graphical tools that you can use to search, browse history, do diffs and so on, so that Trac+git can be a viable solution, even without Trac-git integration. Orestis Excellent! It looks like the Github *mirror* is going to be a thing, so that will at least make some of you happy. Unfortunately, it looks like the *move* (including tickets etc) to Github is never going to happen. I'm not going to elaborate. Someone else might. cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On 07/05/2011 06:05 PM, Orestis Markou wrote: On 5 Jul 2011, at 10:31, Wolfgang wrote: If you ever want someone contributing under Windows, github with git is not a good solution. For Windows there are good clients for mercurial and bazzar. Git is more a Unix only solution. I have no vote on the whole moving off SVN, but as a former windows user I'd like to make it clear that git has absolutely no issues with Windows and it has been so for 3 years now. Either in cygwin or by using the (officially linked from the git home page) msysgit standalone package, you get a completely functional git CLI tool plus a completely functional and awesome gitk graphical interface. I've been using that for a full year (including git-svn) and it's been working completely fine. (Of course it may have other limitations that I'm not aware of, but I haven't come across them). Most people who stay on windows do not find cygwin or even CLI tools an acceptable solution. I think it is fair to say that git is a very unixy tool, and windows not its strong point when compared against bzr or hg (and I say that as someone who find git UI significantly better and easier then either bzr or hg). The situation on windows is consistantly improving though, with tools like smartgit which feel much more native to the typical windows user/developer. cheers, David ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 12:22 PM, David da...@silveregg.co.jp wrote: Most people who stay on windows do not find cygwin or even CLI tools an acceptable solution. So, the argument isn't that git is worse on Windows than it is on *nix: it's just that Windows users don't want to use CLI tools? cheers, David cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 12:22 PM, David da...@silveregg.co.jp wrote: Most people who stay on windows do not find cygwin or even CLI tools an acceptable solution. So, the argument isn't that git is worse on Windows than it is on *nix: it's just that Windows users don't want to use CLI tools? cheers, David cheers lvh Not in my opinion. I find hg, bzr, and svn all easier to use on Windows than git, and I use them all from the command line. For me the problem is that, while bash is certainly a superior language than Windows command language (a la cmd.exe), bash does not always map to Windows concepts/assumptions very nicely. This often leads to things occurring in unexpected (or at least unintuitive) ways (for Win32 users). Even though I use bash daily on Linux machines, I find using bash on Win32 painful (yes, even more painful than cmd.exe, which is really saying something!). Git requires bash. This makes it painful for me (on Windows). Also, Git _is_ worse on Windows than it is on *nix. It's just not as bad as it _used_ to be. It's functional. It works. But it is difficult to deal with, and a lot of Windows users I have talked to (as well as myself, of course) just don't like using it. I'm not necessarily saying that that means Twisted shouldn't use Git. But it _should_ be considered as a factor. Kevin Horn ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 22:19, Kevin Horn kevin.h...@gmail.com wrote: Git requires bash. This makes it painful for me (on Windows). In what sense? You can run git from cmd.exe, without having to deal with bash. (You're not required to use 'Git Bash'.) Also, Git _is_ worse on Windows than it is on *nix. It's just not as bad as it _used_ to be. It's functional. It works. But it is difficult to deal with, and a lot of Windows users I have talked to (as well as myself, of course) just don't like using it. Is there anything in specific that is difficult? I haven't had Windows-specific problems with Git on Windows, and I've been using it a lot. Ivan ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Ivan Kozik i...@ludios.org wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 22:19, Kevin Horn kevin.h...@gmail.com wrote: Git requires bash. This makes it painful for me (on Windows). In what sense? You can run git from cmd.exe, without having to deal with bash. (You're not required to use 'Git Bash'.) Interesting. I was told (and had read) that it _was_ required. So I've been operating under that assumption. If you can run it in a cmd.exe window that _might_ relieve one of my pain points. Also, Git _is_ worse on Windows than it is on *nix. It's just not as bad as it _used_ to be. It's functional. It works. But it is difficult to deal with, and a lot of Windows users I have talked to (as well as myself, of course) just don't like using it. Is there anything in specific that is difficult? I haven't had Windows-specific problems with Git on Windows, and I've been using it a lot. Ivan Nothing terribly specific comes to mind, as I don't _use_ git very often. Only one of the projects I have ever contributed to uses git, and they just switched recently (from Mercurial, which makes very little sense to me as they are just about feature-equivalent). The others all use Mercurial, with the exception of Twisted. So when I started learning about DVCS, Mercurial was pretty much my introduction (aside: it seems to me that people in general seem to prefer whatever DVCS they were originally introduced to). Every couple of months I pull down a new release of git or TortoiseGit or whatever and tinker around with it, but it just isn't very nice compared to Mercurial. Maybe it will be someday. And it's not that anything is particularly _difficult_, so much as annoying. I find the CLI interface weird and clunky. I recall thinking some of the design decisions were not particularly good (though it's been long enough that I can't recall what they were exactly...and I have some complaints about the design of pretty much every DVCS out there, so...). These aren't Windows-specific issues of course, but when you add the Windows-specific issues on top of them, it just makes git that much worse to deal with. Of course, this is entirely subjective, and is totally my own opinion. Maybe the next time I update git it will annoy me less. As far as specific Windows-related issues, here's what I can come up with. These are all pretty vague, I'm afraid... - Let's start with installing. It would be really nice to be able to go to a website, download a package or archive or something, read some instructions and install git. Preferably with Tortoise-X-like Explorer shell integration (though I can live without that). I have never been able to do that. Instead, it's try the above, have it not work, search Google for a bunch of tutorial-style blog posts, try a bunch of stuff, maybe edit or move some files in whichever of several distributions I've had to download, and spend at least a couple of hours getting things working. At this point I'm already annoyed with git and I haven't even started using it yet. - Now I'm going to check things out. OK, fine. First hurdle is that terminology is different from what I'm used to, though that's hardly Git's fault, and I can deal with that. But in order to deal with the change in terminology, coming from Mercurial, I'd really like to see some nice online help. Last I checked, git totally failed in this area, and was noticeably worse on Windows than on *nix. (This was maybe 3 or 4 months ago). Ok, so now I'm having to search web/man pages for how to use git properly. Admittedly, some of this is necessary anyway for something as complex as a DVCS system, but it shouldn't be necessary for basic commands. I also seem to recall being annoyed by syntax for various commands actually being slightly _different_ on Windows than on *nix, but I can't say definitely that that was the case now (it was a long time ago, my memory is hazy, and I may have just misunderstood something). I have no idea if this is still a problem (assuming it ever really was). - I definitely miss Mercurial's friendly little warnings about when I might be about to screw things up. I doubt git will ever have anything like this. It seems antithetical to the git mindset. - Git just seems like it's second class citizen in the git world (this is true of a _huge_ number of open source projects, so it isn't just git, but I have a whole other rant about why this is a Bad Thing [tm] ). A lot of complaints about git on Win32 (which I find to be pretty valid complaints) I see answered with a sneer and something like: Oh sure, but that's what you get for using _Windows_. To sum up, I use both Windows and Linux. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I want my tools to work nicely and be polished in both environments. Git has not impressed me as being able to do this yet. Even if it ever does get to this point, I still probably won't like it as much as Mercurial, just
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:02 AM, Alessandro Dentella san...@e-den.it wrote: On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 03:42:04AM -0400, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: re: Mercurial, I didn't like it when I used it. If someone can tell me how to do this[3] in hg, I'd be more inclined to play along. And that I do this sort of things using mercurial queues. I pile up patches in a queue and can subsequently navigate in the queue (hg qgoto fix_header1) and fold it with a later one (hg qfold fix_header2). Hm. So it's like quilt? Are patch queues real commits (changesets, revisions, whatever), so I can log and blame and grep them while I'm working? While the queue is not yet committed I can change the commit log of a patch in a simple way. hg qnew -f fix1 -m this fixed issue 1 hg qnew -I debian/control -m fix control hg qnew -f fix1.1 -m forgot something in issue 1 hg qgoto fix1 hg qfold fix1.1 # This concatenate the 2 comments hg qrefresh -e # fix your comment as you like it hg qpush hg qfinish -a # commit all queues currently applied Neato. This requires me to be in a queue *before* I fix my patch, right? sandro *:-) -- Sandro Dentella *:-) http://www.reteisi.org Soluzioni libere per le scuole http://sqlkit.argolinux.org SQLkit home page - PyGTK/python/sqlalchemy ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python -- Jasper ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Jul 2, 2011 10:28 p.m., Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On Jul 2, 2011, at 1:07 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: On 1 July 2011 18:38, Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: I think github means less effort for the reviewer because they can review commits, rather than a large diff. They can review changes following a review. I already review diffs this way, with a local bzr-svn branch using 'bzr merge; bzr qlog'. Better yet I just sometimes do this on a plane :). Is that reviewing Svn branches what about text patches? If I address three review comments sending in three patch files seems like a hassle for me and the reviewer and could lead to more delays in the review process. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Michael Thompson wrote: [...] Small, documentation diffs, for instance can be reduced to a single click for a core developer to merge the change to trunk. I doubt that single click writes a NEWS file, or tests that the diff as applied to current trunk builds cleanly on a buildslave. So this may be less useful than you'd expect. -Andrew. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On 1 July 2011 18:38, Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: As Itamar has already suggested, I think that this is a solution in search of a problem. Aside from occasionally saving a contributor the trouble of typing 'review' in the keywords field every so often, what is this actually going to accomplish? We have too many pending patches already, with not enough sustained interest to either review them or fix them; what we need are more sustained contributors, more reviewers. Is this going to help us sustain interest? I agree that there is a problem getting patches reviewed, I think git provides a much better tool to reduce the effort and pain for a reviewer in applying patches, and updating branches to HEAD. Github's patch review tool, and the ability to get a diff to a patch reviewed are big wins in my opinion. I think github means less effort for the reviewer because they can review commits, rather than a large diff. They can review changes following a review. They can have a tool to make comments next to the code and it is less effort to apply patches and update branches to HEAD. Small, documentation diffs, for instance can be reduced to a single click for a core developer to merge the change to trunk. Michael ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Jul 2, 2011, at 1:07 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: On 1 July 2011 18:38, Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: I think github means less effort for the reviewer because they can review commits, rather than a large diff. They can review changes following a review. I already review diffs this way, with a local bzr-svn branch using 'bzr merge; bzr qlog'. Better yet I just sometimes do this on a plane :). They can have a tool to make comments next to the code and it is less effort to apply patches and update branches to HEAD. This would be nice. Is it easy for the reviewee to look at all the comments in an ordered list? ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.comwrote: They can have a tool to make comments next to the code and it is less effort to apply patches and update branches to HEAD. This would be nice. Is it easy for the reviewee to look at all the comments in an ordered list? Depends what ordering you want. Right now it's ascending line numbers, per file they're in. You can also comment on an entire pull request if you want to say things like 3 lines between classes. -- cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: ... Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). I support Twisted moving to a DVCS and to something better than Trac. I personally would prefer Twisted to use Launchpad. Some points: * Launchpad is much faster now that it was six months ago * Its code review system works well with UQDS * Launchpad is open source therefore patchable However, I won't argue too hard about it. jml ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). I'm not sure I understand what you mean by aren't devs. Do you mean aren't Twisted developers? I don't see why someone who isn't a developer would particularly care what development tools Twisted uses. Unless someone is going to go all NO GITHUB IS TERRIBLE AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT on me, maybe we can talk about planning the transition? :) My personal preference would definitely be Launchpad+bzr Bitbucket+hg Github+git. There are also a fair number of Twisted-related projects already on Launchpad. On the other hand, I'm not sure this is a constructive way to approach this issue. -- mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Tristan Seligmann mithra...@mithrandi.netwrote: I'm not sure I understand what you mean by aren't devs. Do you mean aren't Twisted developers? I don't see why someone who isn't a developer would particularly care what development tools Twisted uses. Yes, this is what I meant. Unless someone is going to go all NO GITHUB IS TERRIBLE AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT on me, maybe we can talk about planning the transition? :) My personal preference would definitely be Launchpad+bzr Bitbucket+hg Github+git. There are also a fair number of Twisted-related projects already on Launchpad. Is the reason you would prefer bitbucket over github related to bitbucket and github, or git and hg? cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Hi, On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). I vote for GitHub too. Git's a pain but powerful (no need for combinator), and GitHub has a pretty good API into everything - low level repo innards, to issues/tickets. Also, GitHub's webhook system can easily integrate with buildbot (we used to do it at TweetDeck). Code review is doable by pull requests too. You can even map twistedmatrix.com to a github hosted website, which itself would be a repo. Oh, and the wikis are git repos too. Given all these tools, I see mappings for all of Twisted's bits and pieces (unless I'm missing something). Cheers, Reza -- Reza Lotun mobile: +44 (0)7521 310 763 email: rlo...@gmail.com work: rlo...@twitter.com @rlotun ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 12:29:01PM +0200, Laurens Van Houtven wrote: There's a few existing hosting solutions: 1. Launchpad (+ Bazaar as the default vcs) 2. Bitbucket (+ Mercurial as the default vcs) 3. Github (+ Git as the default vcs) As a very-occasional Twisted contributor (but a long-time fan!) I'll vote for option 3. I'm not particularly a fan of Github[1], but Git is the DVCS I know best, and I'd be more than happy for Twisted Labs to make it easier for me (and people like me) to contribute. On the other hand, using git would probably complicate the build/review process: since Github repositories are (as far as I know) owned by individuals, you might not be able to set up access for multiple people, and hence the current scheme of push your changes to a branch on the central server, tell the buildbots to build it might not be possible. Tim. [1] In fact, I'm vaguely uneasy about distributed version control being so centralised on a single piece of commercially-owned infrastructure. On the other hand, the only hosted alternative would be Gitorious, and it doesn't have a lot of the shiny features Github has, like bug-tracking. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 12:48:37PM +0200, Tristan Seligmann wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). I'm not sure I understand what you mean by aren't devs. Do you mean aren't Twisted developers? I don't see why someone who isn't a developer would particularly care what development tools Twisted uses. Perhaps potential Twisted developers who haven't decided to contribute yet? ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Tim Allen screwt...@froup.com wrote: On the other hand, using git would probably complicate the build/review process: since Github repositories are (as far as I know) owned by individuals, you might not be able to set up access for multiple people, and hence the current scheme of push your changes to a branch on the central server, tell the buildbots to build it might not be possible. No, this is not a problem, Github has the concept of organisations which Glyph has already set up, so we can have this done properly :) Also Github has well supported API notification support for when new commits come in. Not so much for issues, but I'm working on a solution for that... Tim. cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On 1 July 2011 14:01, Tim Allen screwt...@froup.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 12:48:37PM +0200, Tristan Seligmann wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). I'm not sure I understand what you mean by aren't devs. Do you mean aren't Twisted developers? I don't see why someone who isn't a developer would particularly care what development tools Twisted uses. Perhaps potential Twisted developers who haven't decided to contribute yet? I'd support github. I'm somewhat new to twisted community, no code contributions so far (using twisted in my own projects), but github makes 3rd party commits to a project much easier. Ilja ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Le 01/07/2011 12:29, Laurens Van Houtven a écrit : Hi, As some of you may already know (either through a backchannel or because you talked to me at Europython), there has been some talk about moving Twisted way from Trac+SVN to somewhere that isn't Trac+SVN. A lot of the devs do like SVN. My guess is that that's mainly because they don't actually use SVN, they use Combinator, or something. On the other hand, I do think that Trac is pretty universally loathed, and it would be a good idea to get away from it. There's a few existing hosting solutions: 1. Launchpad (+ Bazaar as the default vcs) 2. Bitbucket (+ Mercurial as the default vcs) 3. Github (+ Git as the default vcs) Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). Hi Laurens, Thanks for pushing this. Personally, I would prefer Launchpad and Bzr, but we've been thinking about using it for the past 3 years, and nothing really happened. What I really care about is that we move away from Trac (for bugs at least) and SVN. As I told you in Florence, if you come with a nice migration plan *and* you're ready to take on the burden, that's awesome and you have all my support for moving to Github. But, if somebody else is ready to do the same thing for Launchpad, I'll support him first. It seems unlikely though. -- Thomas ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Is the reason you would prefer bitbucket over github related to bitbucket and github, or git and hg? The latter. Launchpad+bzr is at the top of my list because of Launchpad; Bitbucket+hg ranks over Github+git because of hg. (Or because of git, depending on how you look at it...) -- mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, 2011-07-01 at 12:29 +0200, Laurens Van Houtven wrote: Unless someone is going to go all NO GITHUB IS TERRIBLE AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT on me, maybe we can talk about planning the transition? :) Unless I'm mistaken, Github is a proprietary system, which means I'm unhappy about hosting our project there. At the minimum I'd want a very good story about how we can get all our data out if we need to. And even then I'd probably be against it. What's more, we can switch to git/bzr/hg without switching to a hosted system (e.g. trac with GitPlugin, and redmine has builtin integration for all of those.). Why does git imply github? In my opinion the biggest barrier to new developers is not whether we use git or subversion or what have you, but the high quality of code required (coding standard, tests, passing code review). A DVCS may well encourage more users, but I'm skeptical it will have a major impact. -Itamar ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Thomas Hervé the...@free.fr wrote: ... Thanks for pushing this. Personally, I would prefer Launchpad and Bzr, but we've been thinking about using it for the past 3 years, and nothing really happened. What I really care about is that we move away from Trac (for bugs at least) and SVN. FWIW, I started trying to migrate to Bazaar a while ago, while still keeping us on Trac. (Back then, Launchpad was ruled out on account of being proprietary). It would be much easier to move to Bazaar *and* Launchpad at the same time. I do not believe that it has seriously been attempted by anyone involved in Twisted. jml ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Hi, On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Itamar Turner-Trauring ita...@itamarst.orgwrote: Unless I'm mistaken, Github is a proprietary system, which means I'm unhappy about hosting our project there. At the minimum I'd want a very good story about how we can get all our data out if we need to. And even then I'd probably be against it. What's more, we can switch to git/bzr/hg without switching to a hosted system (e.g. trac with GitPlugin, and redmine has builtin integration for all of those.). Why does git imply github? True, GitHub is proprietary, but it's free for open source projects. There are many high-quality open-source projects hosted on it: * Erlang/OTP (https://github.com/erlang/otp) * Redis (https://github.com/antirez/redis) * Jquery (https://github.com/jquery) * RabbitMQ (https://github.com/rabbitmq) * Ruby on Rails (https://github.com/rails) * Node.js (https://github.com/joyent/node) * Tornado (https://github.com/facebook/tornado) to name a few. GitHub also has an extensive API to programmatically access/backup all information around your project (like tickets and wikis), and it has integrated code review which allows you to comment on individual lines of code (this could be better, but generally works well). I suppose the main reason to even suggest it, given its proprietary nature and use of git, is that's currently where a lot of developer activity is, and its growing. GitHub makes it easy to contribute patches to projects and keep track of progress. It also has a nice way to keep track of related repositories (via 'organizations'). And, well, it looks better than Launchpad and is bit more mature than Bitbucket. Given the past involvement in Launchpad and its use of Twisted though, I understand why that would be an obvious choice. I just want to make sure all sides of the argument are represented. In my opinion the biggest barrier to new developers is not whether we use git or subversion or what have you, but the high quality of code required (coding standard, tests, passing code review). A DVCS may well encourage more users, but I'm skeptical it will have a major impact. I think you're right in that code quality is the most important factor here. However, as a small point, a DVCS surely should be able give the project a better ability to maintain high quality code though - isn't Combinator just tool over subversion to make branching easier? At least with most DVCS's branching is cheap, so there wouldn't need to be yet another tool to setup to get the development process started for new developers. Reza -- Reza Lotun mobile: +44 (0)7521 310 763 email: rlo...@gmail.com work: rlo...@twitter.com @rlotun ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Itamar Turner-Trauring ita...@itamarst.orgwrote: On Fri, 2011-07-01 at 12:29 +0200, Laurens Van Houtven wrote: Unless someone is going to go all NO GITHUB IS TERRIBLE AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT on me, maybe we can talk about planning the transition? :) Unless I'm mistaken, Github is a proprietary system, which means I'm unhappy about hosting our project there. At the minimum I'd want a very good story about how we can get all our data out if we need to. Github has a much nicer API for pulling out all of your data than, say, Trac does. I know this because I'm drafting out sketches for getting something to port Trac's wikis and tickets to the other's... ...then I'd probably be against it. What's more, we can switch to git/bzr/hg without switching to a hosted system (e.g. trac with GitPlugin, and redmine has builtin integration for all of those.). Why does git imply github? git implies github because nobody, not even me, thinks git is worth using when you don't have github super powers to back it up. The point here isn't switching to git, it's switching to github. They've worked very hard to make contribution really easy to do, and I'd say they've succeeded. trac's git-plugin is not something I would work on transitioning, because part of the point is to get rid of Trac. Redmine *is* a much better system than trac (both in terms of maintenance and UX), but has other issues. For example, last time I tried the Bzr plugin for it it was pretty unusable. (Only supports a single branch? *Really*?). Redmine+git might be on the table but a) nobody really likes git that much b) we wouldn't get something as sexy as pull requests/merge proposals like we would on LP or Github. AFAICT there are no code review tools for Redmine that are quite as good. There are two code review plugins for Redmine. They've tried both at Markus, and the conclusion was use review board. That gives us more moving parts to maintain. A huge advantage of using Github, IMHO, is the pull requests. You don't need to ask permission for a commit bit before you can start pushing to branches. You just fork and do your thing. This makes for a very low threshold for contribution. With Redmine, you'd still have to send patches in, which I think is a far less pleasant story than pull requests. (This paragraph applies equally well to Launchpad's merge proposals.) In Pull Requests, you see a timeline with both comments and commits, so it's very easy to check if comments passed in review have been addressed or not. In my opinion the biggest barrier to new developers is not whether we use git or subversion or what have you, but the high quality of code required (coding standard, tests, passing code review). A DVCS may well encourage more users, but I'm skeptical it will have a major impact. The reason I'd prefer Github is only partially the DVCS (and, like you said, any DVCS would do), but to a much larger extent the community on Github. -Itamar -- cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Jonathan Lange j...@mumak.net wrote: I support Twisted moving to a DVCS and to something better than Trac. I personally would prefer Twisted to use Launchpad. Some points: * Launchpad is much faster now that it was six months ago Launchpad's definitely getting faster, but it's still not in the same ballpark. bzr, too, seems a lot slower on many operations (although I'm not sure how much of this is due to lp, and how much is due to git) despite having been sped up a lot over the years. Here's my incredibly unscientific (maybe these do significantly different amounts of work, I'm not sure) test for checking out Twisted using lp:twisted and github's powdahound/twisted: bzr: 63.29s user 2.80s system 1:43.32 total git: 6.93s user 3.28s system 0:45.75 total That data is skewed in bzr's favour because someone started downloading something huge halfway the git test. My point is that git's pretty fast, not even particularly so for clone (because the slowest part there is the network). Most of the work I've ever done on Twisted has been using bzr-svn, and it has been at times noticeably slow. (but not quite frustratingly so). Either way, I think this is probably the wrong discussion. Most of the time I hear Launchpad's UX is bad for coders, and it's slow, not Launchpad is slow and it's UX is bad. * Its code review system works well with UQDS True, but I don't see how it works better than github's pull requests. * Launchpad is open source therefore patchable Yes, that's a good point. I like that it's open source (although it has an unfortunate license). Is the patching of Launchpad by third parties followed by those patches landing in production a common occurrence? However, I won't argue too hard about it. jml cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Jonathan Lange j...@mumak.net wrote: ... * Launchpad is open source therefore patchable Yes, that's a good point. I like that it's open source (although it has an unfortunate license). Is the patching of Launchpad by third parties followed by those patches landing in production a common occurrence? Launchpad doesn't get a lot of external contributors, but their patches almost always land in production promptly. I suspect Launchpad is comparable to Twisted in this regard. https://dev.launchpad.net/Contributions miscategorizes some people, but gives some idea. jml ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Le 01/07/2011 14:14, Itamar Turner-Trauring a écrit : On Fri, 2011-07-01 at 12:29 +0200, Laurens Van Houtven wrote: Unless someone is going to go all NO GITHUB IS TERRIBLE AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT on me, maybe we can talk about planning the transition? :) Unless I'm mistaken, Github is a proprietary system, which means I'm unhappy about hosting our project there. At the minimum I'd want a very good story about how we can get all our data out if we need to. And even then I'd probably be against it. What's more, we can switch to git/bzr/hg without switching to a hosted system (e.g. trac with GitPlugin, and redmine has builtin integration for all of those.). Why does git imply github? I think there are 2 sides though here: we want to move away from Trac as well as from SVN. And, the main reason for me is that we don't have to maintain Trac. So redmine wouldn't solve the whole problem. As Laurens said as well, the main attraction for git is using github. I don't think switching to git alone makes a ton of sense. One thing that concerns me is that Trac supposedly supports bzr, and we tried to use bzr, but never made the move completely. Why do you think it will change? Is it just that we didn't take any decisions? Or that nobody stepped up? In my opinion the biggest barrier to new developers is not whether we use git or subversion or what have you, but the high quality of code required (coding standard, tests, passing code review). A DVCS may well encourage more users, but I'm skeptical it will have a major impact. Well, even not thinking about new developers, a DVCS will make the life of current ones easier. Even though we can start to use bzr, it's a bit clumsy IMHO. -- Thomas ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Jonathan Lange j...@mumak.net wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Jonathan Lange j...@mumak.net wrote: ... * Launchpad is open source therefore patchable Yes, that's a good point. I like that it's open source (although it has an unfortunate license). Is the patching of Launchpad by third parties followed by those patches landing in production a common occurrence? Launchpad doesn't get a lot of external contributors, but their patches almost always land in production promptly. I suspect Launchpad is comparable to Twisted in this regard. Well, part of the hypothesis of the effects of moving to Github is that a) the clear separation between core contributor and random contributor because a bit more subtle, b) it becomes easier for external contributors to contribute. So yeah, I guess it is, but it'd be cool if it became a bit more open to contributions from the more general public :) https://dev.launchpad.net/Contributions miscategorizes some people, but gives some idea. Cool, thanks for the link. I had no idea there were that many. jml cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Thomas Hervé the...@free.fr wrote: Well, even not thinking about new developers, a DVCS will make the life of current ones easier. Even though we can start to use bzr, it's a bit clumsy IMHO. Also, apparently there are ways of using bzr-svn that confuse the hell out of Combinator or some other tools, and it'll spew metadata everywhere, or something. I don't remember what the conditions were, but I do remember that it was the obvious way of doing it, and glyph yelling at me for it after I tried ;-) cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
+1 for github. The user experience of bitbucket and LP is secondary compared to github. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, 2011-07-01 at 15:23 +0200, Laurens Van Houtven wrote: Well, part of the hypothesis of the effects of moving to Github is that a) the clear separation between core contributor and random contributor because a bit more subtle, b) it becomes easier for external contributors to contribute. So yeah, I guess it is, but it'd be cool if it became a bit more open to contributions from the more general public :) I'm not sure getting more patches should be our main goal, for now. (It's a good *long term* goal!). We have a large number of uncommitted third-party patches in tickets. We have a large number of half-finished developer branches (I'm working on a couple, since it's an easy way to get things done). These were not left uncommitted or unfinished because of tool problems, but because of other issues. Dealing with this seems to me to be higher priority than getting even more patches we won't get around to incorporating. If you want more contributions, improving the processes so abandonment is less likely to happen is the first step. I can certainly think of ways in which e.g. github might help with that, but this is not a *technical* problem, it's an organizational and social problem, and at the very least you should think about how to solve it before redoing all the technical infrastructure. For example, making sure all reviewable tickets get reviewed within 7 days, and all new tickets get an answer within 3 days. If a switch github is super-successful in getting us more patches, and then those patches sit in limbo forever, all we've done is alienate potential developers. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
This, I believe, is the real problem -- tickets which were reviewed but never closed: http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/report/16 That is a very sad list. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: ... Well, part of the hypothesis of the effects of moving to Github is that a) the clear separation between core contributor and random contributor because a bit more subtle, b) it becomes easier for external contributors to contribute. So yeah, I guess it is, but it'd be cool if it became a bit more open to contributions from the more general public :) I'm sure the Launchpad project would gladly accept your help with getting new contributors... unless your help was to advise them to switch to Github ;) jml ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Thomas Hervé the...@free.fr wrote: ... One thing that concerns me is that Trac supposedly supports bzr, and we tried to use bzr, but never made the move completely. Why do you think it will change? Is it just that we didn't take any decisions? Or that nobody stepped up? For me, the biggest external blocker was not being sure what the requirements were for moving. The internal blockers of time motivation probably dominated. jml ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Le 01/07/2011 15:44, Itamar Turner-Trauring a écrit : On Fri, 2011-07-01 at 15:23 +0200, Laurens Van Houtven wrote: Well, part of the hypothesis of the effects of moving to Github is that a) the clear separation between core contributor and random contributor because a bit more subtle, b) it becomes easier for external contributors to contribute. So yeah, I guess it is, but it'd be cool if it became a bit more open to contributions from the more general public :) I'm not sure getting more patches should be our main goal, for now. (It's a good *long term* goal!). At least personally, moving away from SVN and Trac is not to directly get more patches. It's mainly that I want as a contributor to use better tools. Also, I don't want us to maintain the infrastructure; for example, moving to a more recent Trac cost me personally a good amount of time; we also have that problem with spam. We have a large number of uncommitted third-party patches in tickets. We have a large number of half-finished developer branches (I'm working on a couple, since it's an easy way to get things done). These were not left uncommitted or unfinished because of tool problems, but because of other issues. Dealing with this seems to me to be higher priority than getting even more patches we won't get around to incorporating. If you want more contributions, improving the processes so abandonment is less likely to happen is the first step. I can certainly think of ways in which e.g. github might help with that, but this is not a *technical* problem, it's an organizational and social problem, and at the very least you should think about how to solve it before redoing all the technical infrastructure. For example, making sure all reviewable tickets get reviewed within 7 days, and all new tickets get an answer within 3 days. If a switch github is super-successful in getting us more patches, and then those patches sit in limbo forever, all we've done is alienate potential developers. Well, that logic is a bit flawed though: you're kind of saying that we shouldn't use a better tool because it may bring us more contributors than we can handle. At the end of the day, we would still use a better tool though. -- Thomas ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Well, that logic is a bit flawed though: you're kind of saying that we shouldn't use a better tool because it may bring us more contributors than we can handle. At the end of the day, we would still use a better tool though. No, I'm saying that given limited resources, addressing the giant piles of unused code we have (and figuring out how new code won't end up in the attic) seems like a higher priority. Using better tools is always a good idea, and if you'd like to argue that github means patches are less likely to be abandoned that's a good argument to make. I'm arguing for a broader look at what our development process problems are, and that perhaps efforts should be directed elsewhere. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Hi all, On Fri, 2011-07-01 at 12:00 +0100, Reza Lotun wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). I vote for GitHub too. Git's a pain but powerful (no need for combinator), and GitHub has a pretty good API into everything - low level repo innards, to issues/tickets. Also, GitHub's webhook system can easily integrate with buildbot (we used to do it at TweetDeck). Code review is doable by pull requests too. You can even map twistedmatrix.com to a github hosted website, which itself would be a repo. Oh, and the wikis are git repos too. Given all these tools, I see mappings for all of Twisted's bits and pieces (unless I'm missing something). I agree, possibly the biggest win with GitHub is the way it encourages fellow users to fork a project and contribute patches via pull requests. Popularity doesn't always equate to quality but in this case (amongst developers) I think it *is* indicative that they've got something right. Pull requests can be used to implement the Twisted review model as they form a good centralised place to review a set of changes. GitHub's issue tracker used to be pretty shoddy but has had a big upgrade recently and is almost good now. Git is powerful, and while it can also be confusing at times StackOverflow almost always has the answer ;-) Also, managing branches in git really is real pleasure compared to the mish-mash of merging branches with SVN and various external scripts. For example, to merge 'somebranch' into master (i.e. trunk) and push it to GitHub (the 'origin' remote), after committing to somebranch, it's just: git checkout master; git merge somebranch; git push origin master Addressing the concern of getting your data out of GitHub, since git is a DVCS, every repository is a complete copy of the entire revision history. Therefore, GitHub cannot lock you in. I suppose the issue tracker might be a different story, but it has an API. -- Best Regards, Luke Marsden CTO, Hybrid Logic Ltd. Mobile: +447791750420 www.hybrid-cluster.com - Cloud web hosting platform ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
If the patch applies cleanly, pull requests can even be merged without involving git directly at all, from the Github web UI. cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Itamar makes an excellent point. That probably is one of the worst problems we have right now. and it definitely needs to be addressed. Figuring out how code could end up not-in-the-attic sounds like part of the transition plan to me. I do, in fact, think Github means patches are less likely to be abandoned. There's two reasons for that. First of all, you don't have to deal with a patch: you deal with a pull request. That means there's a branch with commits, and it's already in version control. Because that version control lives on Github, it's very easy to pull into your own checkout and work on it. This lowers the barrier to entry further, and completely gets rid of the distinction between committers and non-committers we currently have (where non-committers don't get to use version control, basically, unless they use bzr or something else, which again is a distinction between workflows for people with and without commit bits). The main problem I see in this transition is that Github tickets and pull requests are distinct elements in the issue tracker, whereas reviews go on the ticket in Trac/UQDS. cheers, lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Hi, First, I encourage everyone to take a look at (and update) http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/WorkflowRequirements It was created a while back and hasn't been updated in a long time. Second: 1. Launchpad (+ Bazaar as the default vcs) I'm curious about something: Is it yet possible to revert a merge in bzr without doing annoying things? -- Christopher Armstrong http://radix.twistedmatrix.com/ http://planet-if.com/ ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Jul 1, 2011, at 7:44, Itamar Turner-Trauring ita...@itamarst.org wrote: I'm not sure getting more patches should be our main goal, for now. (It's a good *long term* goal!). We have a large number of uncommitted third-party patches in tickets. 2 of those are mine. They're almost to the point of being accepted, but we're at that phase where there's a lot of roundtrips due to the code reviewing involved, and syncing SVN in that scenario is such a pain in the rear I've bogged down and gotten side tracked by other projects that have an easier system for contribution workflow ( Github or Bitbucket). I think you'd see the wither on the vine rate decline if Twisted moved to a system that made the workflow of contribution smoother. I like tools that make the work, rather than the tool, the focus of the job at hand...and that's definitely not SVN, Trac or LP. I'd advocate Git if only because it has the most number of integrations (that work well) with other VCSs, so devs can use the VCS/DVCS client they like best. I'd definitely vote for Github as well. The integration between the code, tickets and code review is by far the best I've worked with. Also, let's keep in mind the social aspect for visibility. When there's an interesting project, if it's on Github I'll hit the 'watch' button. This means I keep up-to-date on changes and activity for projects I want to use but may never contribute to. Github has opened my eyes to a number of projects that otherwise would have fallen off my radar...and I don't think that's an effect to dismiss lightly. -J ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Christopher Armstrong ra...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Hi, First, I encourage everyone to take a look at (and update) http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/WorkflowRequirements It was created a while back and hasn't been updated in a long time. Second: Launchpad (+ Bazaar as the default vcs) I'm curious about something: Is it yet possible to revert a merge in bzr without doing annoying things? I'm sitting around with a bunch of Bazaar developers, and they say this:: On trunk: bzr merge -r $REVNO..$(REVNO - 1) bzr commit The person with the failing branch, when they wish to resume development: bzr merge trunk bzr revert . bzr commit (I'm assuming the case where someone has committed a change that breaks the build and there may have been more commits to trunk since then.) jml ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On 01/07/11 11:29, Laurens Van Houtven wrote: Hi, As some of you may already know (either through a backchannel or because you talked to me at Europython), there has been some talk about moving Twisted way from Trac+SVN to somewhere that isn't Trac+SVN. A lot of the devs do like SVN. My guess is that that's mainly because they don't actually use SVN, they use Combinator, or something. On the As per my other, longer email: for me, the current SVN/branch development model is hugely offputting for occasional contributions, and I suspect for people who want to submit 10-100 line changes. For the love of god, pick a DVCS so that contributors can develop in local branches, and pick a DVCS with a good central pull request and patch review system/engine/site/app/whatever. I like github and loathe Launchpad personally but really - pick anything. Just not SVN. And not Trac. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Thomas Hervé the...@free.fr wrote: Le 01/07/2011 16:42, Itamar Turner-Trauring a écrit : Well, that logic is a bit flawed though: you're kind of saying that we shouldn't use a better tool because it may bring us more contributors than we can handle. At the end of the day, we would still use a better tool though. No, I'm saying that given limited resources, addressing the giant piles of unused code we have (and figuring out how new code won't end up in the attic) seems like a higher priority. Using better tools is always a good idea, and if you'd like to argue that github means patches are less likely to be abandoned that's a good argument to make. I'm arguing for a broader look at what our development process problems are, and that perhaps efforts should be directed elsewhere. While I sympathize with what you're saying, this sounds kind of orthogonal to me. Sure, we can do better at handling contributions. But it's an opensource project, everybody does whatever he wants mostly (in the frame that the project sets). Saying to Laurens that we have limited resources and that he should do something else doesn't mean that this second task will be done. But it surely means that first one won't. -- Thomas I'd say that's a safe bet. -- cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Jul 1, 2011, at 6:29 AM, Laurens Van Houtven wrote: As some of you may already know (either through a backchannel or because you talked to me at Europython), there has been some talk about moving Twisted way from Trac+SVN to somewhere that isn't Trac+SVN. A lot of the devs do like SVN. My guess is that that's mainly because they don't actually use SVN, they use Combinator, or something. On the other hand, I do think that Trac is pretty universally loathed, and it would be a good idea to get away from it. There's a few existing hosting solutions: Launchpad (+ Bazaar as the default vcs) Bitbucket (+ Mercurial as the default vcs) Github (+ Git as the default vcs) Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). Unless someone is going to go all NO GITHUB IS TERRIBLE AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT on me, maybe we can talk about planning the transition? :) As Itamar has already suggested, I think that this is a solution in search of a problem. Aside from occasionally saving a contributor the trouble of typing 'review' in the keywords field every so often, what is this actually going to accomplish? We have too many pending patches already, with not enough sustained interest to either review them or fix them; what we need are more sustained contributors, more reviewers. Is this going to help us sustain interest? In my opinion, the main frustration with this process is simply responsiveness of the site. I think a better investment to address those issues would be in faster hardware to run Trac on (and possibly to communicate the acceptability of using a DVCS mirror). But, if you're going to contemplate a transition, here are a few prerequisites. Perhaps some of this should be added to the WorkflowRequirements page for posterity. If you want me to take this effort seriously, please finish twisted.positioning first and get it reviewed and landed on trunk. That's just a patch, after all, a much smaller effort than a attempting to migrate the project onto entirely new infrastructure, with implications for testing, version control, and issue tracking. :-) Less controversial, I think, would be to produce a viable official github *mirror*, a-la https://github.com/django/django, rather than a migration, since this is a necessary prerequisite and useful in its own right. https://github.com/twisted still has no public repositories, and I've been bugging people (including you specifically, lvh) to take this over for the past couple of weeks. If we migrate somewhere, I would like all the data to be mirrored and presented on twistedmatrix.com with a custom stylesheet. Ideally, I would like to avoid Twisted's users interacting with a different site for issue tracking. A heavily-used, custom-styled web presence was an important part of fundraising. No, I don't have any strong empirical data to present to justify that sentiment, but salesmanship is an art, and when I was talking to potential sponsors I felt that our site made us look like a serious project that sponsors were comfortable contributing to. The only person who I think has done enough interacting with sponsors to credibly disagree with this is exarkun - although he may well do just that. For me, tens of thousands of dollars of focused sponsored development is going to win over random patches from people on github for a lng time coming. The fact that Django still maintains their own Trac instance is a point in favor of this, as well. Those guys know a thing or two about image management :-). Of course, anyone may easily refute this point at any time by simply raising about $30,000 for the TSF. Pages like http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=statss=sm7twistedmatrixr=19 give us interesting information about our developers, and have previously informed discussions about efforts put towards platform support. None of the sites listed above appear to offer independent web analytics, or the ability to embed custom HTML. This is not, strictly speaking, a requirement, but any potential advocate of migrating somewhere should be aware that this would be one of the things we'd lose with a hosted solution. You'll need to port http://twistedmatrix.com/highscores/ to whatever system we switch to, and hopefully also preserve the ease of development and experimentation with ticket data. We will need a staging deployment so that the new system can be evaluated and any tools to migrate can be tested without actually switching to it. This would appear to disqualify github immediately, as we can't run our own instance for testing,
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: Hi, As some of you may already know (either through a backchannel or because you talked to me at Europython), there has been some talk about moving Twisted way from Trac+SVN to somewhere that isn't Trac+SVN. A lot of the devs do like SVN. My guess is that that's mainly because they don't actually use SVN, they use Combinator, or something. On the other hand, I do think that Trac is pretty universally loathed, and it would be a good idea to get away from it. There's a few existing hosting solutions: 1. Launchpad (+ Bazaar as the default vcs) 2. Bitbucket (+ Mercurial as the default vcs) 3. Github (+ Git as the default vcs) Although I've hated git for a long while (and I still don't like it very much), I firmly believe Github is the right thing for Twisted. My incredibly unscientific poll amongst people who like Twisted but aren't devs is that they all love or at least like Github, and a surprising number has a distaste for Launchpad (unfamiliarity with Bazaar, perceived developer-unfriendly UI, slowness). Unless someone is going to go all NO GITHUB IS TERRIBLE AND YOU ARE A BAD PERSON FOR EVEN SUGGESTING IT on me, maybe we can talk about planning the transition? :) -- cheers lvh A bunch of thoughts after reading a lot of this thread: * any move to any DVCS will need a well-defined workflow/branching model/whatever, and it needs to be _written down_ so that people can be referred to it * moving to a DVCS would make it easier to merge changes from contributors * moving to a DVCS would allow contributors to work on their contributions in version control...no more patch nonsense. * though at times, after dealing with SVN/Combinator, I have longed for the patch nonsense... * A move to _any_ DVCS would almost certainly be a win over SVN. I've had to go back to using SVN at work for my day-to-day, and it is _painful_. * I've never had any huge problesm with Trac, though I can see that offloading admin responsibilities is a good thing. * Does Github's ticketing system have the kind of integration with Git that Twisted has built for Trac+SVN? Bitbucket has some similar stuff, so I would be surprised if Github didn't, but I just don't know. * I've never liked Launchpad. I find it confusing and hard to navigate. * Git is annoying. It's a pretty horrible piece of software in my opinion, and made some bad design decisions. * Git essentially makes Windows a second-class environment (as did Combinator). We already have trouble recruiting Windows people, and IMO one of Twisted's strengths is that you can usually run things on Linux/MacOSX/Windows with very few cahnges, if any. * Github almost makes up for Git's irritating-ness. * Github's extra features have never yet caused me to choose Git as a new project over Mercurial. * For me, Bitbucket has always been pretty comparable to Github. I know others will disagree, and point out all kinds of features that Github has over Bitbucket, but apparently I never use those features. Perhaps those features (whatever they are) are more important in projects of Twisted's size and/or history. * I have been told, but not actually experienced, that using the hg-git plugin for Mercurial makes using Git for your repository into an implementation detail, and the user basicaly doesn't even really have to care that they aren't using Hg. If true, this would make me pretty happy...but I'm not entirely sure that it _is_ true. * it is unclear how Github would work with UQDS with regards to having a ticket for all new work. IMO this is even more important than code reviews. Would we just say: no pull requests will be accepted unless * How would running buildbot over a git/bzr/hg branch work? Would Github's hooks be able to drive this? Would we be able to tell buildbot to go run tests on this branch? * Assuming a change like this would take place, what would the plan be for transition? Would all the branches that are out there be migrate-able? What about all the Trac tickets, wiki, etc? * How does this affect the Sphinx transition plan? (I don't really know that it would affect it at all...). * Since Twisted's current web presence _is_ a Trac site, who's going to step up and build a new website? Github/Bitbucket/Launchpad is _NOT_ a replacement for an actual marketing or home page type site. Overall, this is probably a good plan, but it's going to bea harder and take more work than people think. Also, I agree with Itamar's comments that while switching to a DVCS might ameliorate Twisted's social/organizational issues somewhat, but is unlikely to wholly fix them. That stuff needs to be discussed and worked on as well. Kevin Horn ___ Twisted-Python mailing list
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Although, the other questions raised in this thread, about what parts of our workflow are problematic, are worth talking about separately. Moving from a manual patch-based process to a DVCS where branching is cheap and the workflow can be moved to push/pull would be a huge step in the right direction. Twisted has a very polite club-like culture where some are on the inside, most aren't and it's clear where on that line anyone is. Submitting to the pain of the current submission tools almost seems viewed as a kind of worthwhile hazing to weed out the unworthy. A lot of the resistance to change on this issue over the last year has had a lot of that flavor to it. Itamar's logic on why Twisted shouldn't make contributing easier being a prime example. Twisted needs more friends not fewer. Given everyone here has day jobs in addition to contributing to Twisted, getting rid of the patch-hell that is the current review process would help everyone even if Trac is kept for issue tracking. -J ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Kevin Horn kevin.h...@gmail.com wrote: * Does Github's ticketing system have the kind of integration with Git that Twisted has built for Trac+SVN? Bitbucket has some similar stuff, so I would be surprised if Github didn't, but I just don't know. Stuff like refs/closes interacts with the ticketing system yes. You can have as many hooks as you like for topfiles. * Git is annoying. It's a pretty horrible piece of software in my opinion, and made some bad design decisions. magit makes it a lot more pleasant if you use emacs, by the way. * Git essentially makes Windows a second-class environment (as did Combinator). We already have trouble recruiting Windows people, and IMO one of Twisted's strengths is that you can usually run things on Linux/MacOSX/Windows with very few cahnges, if any. I've been told this has *vastly* improved, but I don't know for sure since I'm not a Windows user. * For me, Bitbucket has always been pretty comparable to Github. I know others will disagree, and point out all kinds of features that Github has over Bitbucket, but apparently I never use those features. Perhaps those features (whatever they are) are more important in projects of Twisted's size and/or history. Yes, many features are comparable, the main feature differences are polish, but the killer difference is community size. * I have been told, but not actually experienced, that using the hg-git plugin for Mercurial makes using Git for your repository into an implementation detail, and the user basicaly doesn't even really have to care that they aren't using Hg. If true, this would make me pretty happy...but I'm not entirely sure that it _is_ true. Although I've never tried this, I've been assured this is the case. * it is unclear how Github would work with UQDS with regards to having a ticket for all new work. IMO this is even more important than code reviews. Would we just say: no pull requests will be accepted unless Your question got cut off. I think you wanted to say there's a ticket for that? * How would running buildbot over a git/bzr/hg branch work? Would Github's hooks be able to drive this? Would we be able to tell buildbot to go run tests on this branch? Although I've never tried this, I've been assured this is the case. * Assuming a change like this would take place, what would the plan be for transition? Would all the branches that are out there be migrate-able? What about all the Trac tickets, wiki, etc? The first thing I thought right after I thought we're going to need a trac to markdown converter is khorn is going to jump off a cliff next ;-) * How does this affect the Sphinx transition plan? (I don't really know that it would affect it at all...). I don't see how it would. * Since Twisted's current web presence _is_ a Trac site, who's going to step up and build a new website? Github/Bitbucket/Launchpad is _NOT_ a replacement for an actual marketing or home page type site. Absolutely not. I am *not* advocating replacing this site, simply having something similar that isn't trac and isn't involved in the site development. If anything, this separates the concerns of home page style site and development site even clearer, IMO. Overall, this is probably a good plan, but it's going to bea harder and take more work than people think. Also, I agree with Itamar's comments that while switching to a DVCS might ameliorate Twisted's social/organizational issues somewhat, but is unlikely to wholly fix them. That stuff needs to be discussed and worked on as well. There's no silver bullet. Not making new potential contributors bend over, and having all contributions trivially easy to put in version control, regardless of their contributor status, sounds like a good start. Kevin Horn cheers lvh ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Laurens Van Houtven _...@lvh.cc wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Kevin Horn kevin.h...@gmail.com wrote: * Git is annoying. It's a pretty horrible piece of software in my opinion, and made some bad design decisions. magit makes it a lot more pleasant if you use emacs, by the way. I don't. Emacs is also annoying. * Git essentially makes Windows a second-class environment (as did Combinator). We already have trouble recruiting Windows people, and IMO one of Twisted's strengths is that you can usually run things on Linux/MacOSX/Windows with very few cahnges, if any. I've been told this has *vastly* improved, but I don't know for sure since I'm not a Windows user. I've heard the same thing, but if what exists now is a _vast_ improvement, I shudder to think what it was like before. * it is unclear how Github would work with UQDS with regards to having a ticket for all new work. IMO this is even more important than code reviews. Would we just say: no pull requests will be accepted unless Your question got cut off. I think you wanted to say there's a ticket for that? exactly. * Assuming a change like this would take place, what would the plan be for transition? Would all the branches that are out there be migrate-able? What about all the Trac tickets, wiki, etc? The first thing I thought right after I thought we're going to need a trac to markdown converter is khorn is going to jump off a cliff next ;-) _almost_ funny :) . * Since Twisted's current web presence _is_ a Trac site, who's going to step up and build a new website? Github/Bitbucket/Launchpad is _NOT_ a replacement for an actual marketing or home page type site. Absolutely not. I am *not* advocating replacing this site, simply having something similar that isn't trac and isn't involved in the site development. If anything, this separates the concerns of home page style site and development site even clearer, IMO. Well, the site would _have_ to be replaced by something, if Trac were to go away. But I think I understand what you mean. Kevin Horn cheers lvh Kevin Horn ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
Twisted has a very polite club-like culture where some are on the inside, most aren't and it's clear where on that line anyone is. Submitting to the pain of the current submission tools almost seems viewed as a kind of worthwhile hazing to weed out the unworthy. A lot of the resistance to change on this issue over the last year has had a lot of that flavor to it. Itamar's logic on why Twisted shouldn't make contributing easier being a prime example. I did not say contributing shouldn't be easier; I said getting more contributions is pointless (and annoying to contributors!) if we can't manage to get them incorporated into trunk. If DVCS will make code easier to incorporate, by encouraging contributors to iterate on patches, then we should certainly do so. Given the feedback you and others have given that seems at least worth trying. There are other additional things we should work on though, e.g. giving better feedback to new developers. ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
I did not say contributing shouldn't be easier; I said getting more contributions is pointless (and annoying to contributors!) if we can't manage to get them incorporated into trunk. If DVCS will make code easier to incorporate, by encouraging contributors to iterate on patches, then we should certainly do so. Given the feedback you and others have given that seems at least worth trying. My apologies if I misunderstood what you were saying. If we can make it easier to iterate that would address 95% of my current frustrations with the process of contributing. There are other additional things we should work on though, e.g. giving better feedback to new developers. No argument. But the Twisted code standards are high and usually have a high number of iterations to get any fix in...if we can get out of the stone age of shuffling patch files around and get to some form of push/pull system that would reduce a lot of my heartburn about do this...OK looks good...now do this too and integrate with ticket XYZ...great almost there...I think you should do this now too -J ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
Re: [Twisted-Python] Moving Twisted off Trac and SVN to somewhere nicer
What data do you care about? Wikis and code are in git repositories, and they have a very exhaustive API[0] for pretty much everything else. On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 12:53 AM, Mikhail Terekhov ter...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Itamar Turner-Trauring ita...@itamarst.org wrote: Unless I'm mistaken, Github is a proprietary system, which means I'm unhappy about hosting our project there. At the minimum I'd want a very good story about how we can get all our data out if we need to. And even then I'd probably be against it. What's more, we can switch to git/bzr/hg without switching to a hosted system (e.g. trac with GitPlugin, and redmine has builtin integration for all of those.). Why does git imply github? In my opinion the biggest barrier to new developers is not whether we use git or subversion or what have you, but the high quality of code required (coding standard, tests, passing code review). A DVCS may well encourage more users, but I'm skeptical it will have a major impact. +1 -- Mikhail Terekhov ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python [0] http://developer.github.com/ -- Jasper ___ Twisted-Python mailing list Twisted-Python@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-python
