Re: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Timothy Snyder]

Symeon Breen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/23/2005 04:46:48 AM:

> Hi Tim - great info - I am always being asked how U2 performs and this
> is helpfull to a point. However without being critical it does not
> realy say much in terms of real stats ie. Number of transactions, IO
> read/writes, program executions etc per second/minute/day .

The goal of this project was not to generate raw numbers like that.  It 
was created to demonstrate that a particular application could perform 
under the projected user load.  A requirement was to provide a certain 
number of transactions per user per hour.  This was not measured in I/O 
operations, since that is not the measure of real-world productivity.  Raw 
benchmarks that just generate numbers can be interesting, but do not 
demonstrate real-world productivity.  They are always called into question 
because they could be tweaked to generate desired results by modifying the 
transactions for maximum throughput.  We've all seen benchmark results and 
have questioned their viability.  (OK - you can perform a bubble sort in 3 
milliseconds, but what does that mean to my users?)  This test was 
engineered and executed by using an actual application in a realistic 
environment, with realistic expectations.


Tim Snyder
Consulting I/T Specialist , U2 Professional Services
North American Lab Services
DB2 Information Management, IBM Software Group
717-545-6403
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Symeon Breen]

Hi Tim - great info - I am always being asked how U2 performs and this
is helpfull to a point. However without being critical it does not
realy say much in terms of real stats ie. Number of transactions, IO
read/writes, program executions etc per second/minute/day .

Maybe bear such info in mind for next time.


Thanks
Sym.


On 11/22/05, Timothy Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Stevenson, Charles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/22/2005
> 12:59:53 PM:
>
> > I suppose the test environment has been disassembled already, but it
> > sure would be good to turn on logging & give it a nother go.  Can you
> > keep that in mind for the future?
>
> The system has been dismantled, so there's no chance to run anything else.
>  Unfortunately, the type of tests that are performed are dictated by the
> people who are paying for the time in the benchmark center.  Since this is
> by no means cheap, it's difficult to add things that we think would be
> interesting.  Each test took almost eight hours to prepare, execute and
> gather statistics, so it was difficult to squeeze in extra stuff.
>
> Now, if somebody's willing to sponsor a huge-scale test like this with TL
> turned on and off, I'd be thrilled to put something together...
>
>
> Tim Snyder
> Consulting I/T Specialist , U2 Professional Services
> North American Lab Services
> DB2 Information Management, IBM Software Group
> 717-545-6403
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
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> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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[OT]RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse {Unclassified}

[Dan Fitzgerald]

So how much for that used one?  

Congratulations.


"Our greatest duty in this life is to help others. And please, if you can't 
help them, could you at least not hurt them?" - H.H. the Dalai Lama
"When buying & selling are controlled by legislation, the first thing to be 
bought & sold are the legislators" - P.J. O'Rourke

Dan Fitzgerald






From: Timothy Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse   
{Unclassified}

Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:55:37 -0500

"HENDERSON MIKE, MR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/22/2005
04:03:39 PM:

> An idea on the 'list price' cost of the target p590 system "with 64 dual
> core CPUs and 124GB memory" would be helpful, also information on how
> this was achieved, particularly as the IBM web-site says the p590 maxes
> out at 32 CPUs (2 'books' of 2 8-chip MCMs)  ;-)

Oops - miscommunication of information.  The testing was done on a p595,
not a p590.  Steve O'Neal was asking me about the configuration yesterday
and I may have told him it was a 590 - but I'm looking at the specs right
now and it was definitely a 595.  As far as the pricing, I think you'd
have to get a quote from an IBM sales rep.  I don't think these things are
sitting on a shelf with price tags, ready to ship.  ;-)


Tim Snyder
Consulting I/T Specialist , U2 Professional Services
North American Lab Services
DB2 Information Management, IBM Software Group
717-545-6403
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse {Unclassified}

[Timothy Snyder]

"HENDERSON MIKE, MR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/22/2005 
04:03:39 PM:

> An idea on the 'list price' cost of the target p590 system "with 64 dual
> core CPUs and 124GB memory" would be helpful, also information on how
> this was achieved, particularly as the IBM web-site says the p590 maxes
> out at 32 CPUs (2 'books' of 2 8-chip MCMs)  ;-)

Oops - miscommunication of information.  The testing was done on a p595, 
not a p590.  Steve O'Neal was asking me about the configuration yesterday 
and I may have told him it was a 590 - but I'm looking at the specs right 
now and it was definitely a 595.  As far as the pricing, I think you'd 
have to get a quote from an IBM sales rep.  I don't think these things are 
sitting on a shelf with price tags, ready to ship.  ;-)


Tim Snyder
Consulting I/T Specialist , U2 Professional Services
North American Lab Services
DB2 Information Management, IBM Software Group
717-545-6403
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse {Unclassified}

[HENDERSON MIKE, MR]

Tim,

Thanks for the additional information.

An idea on the 'list price' cost of the target p590 system "with 64 dual
core CPUs and 124GB memory" would be helpful, also information on how
this was achieved, particularly as the IBM web-site says the p590 maxes
out at 32 CPUs (2 'books' of 2 8-chip MCMs)  ;-)

Mike

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Timothy Snyder
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 03:46
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse
>
> "David Jordan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/22/2005 12:02:04 AM:
>
> > I am also curious if the transactions were simple or complex
transactions.
>
> Each of the 10,000 users was performing a variety of  transactions,
some
> simple and some complex, all typical of real life for the  proposed
system.
>
> There were 30 individual activities in the scenario,  designed to
provide
> a simulation of the proposed production work load.  All of  the
activities
> were performed by each user.  This included creating new orders, key
> look-ups, index look-ups on full and partial values, a multi-screen
> maintenance procedure, and others.  The actual production  code was
used,
> including all entry screens, to ensure there would be no concerns
about a
> "mocked-up" simulation.  Simulated users were pushed from a p570
running 4
> LPARs so the burden of administering the load would not be imposed on
the
> database server.  The simulated users appeared to the database server
as
> telnet sessions, again to most closely simulate a real-world scenario.
>
> The initial goal was to make sure UniVerse could handle the proposed
> production load and that a file of greater than a terabyte with over a

> billion rows would not cause problems.  Since we had some spare time
at
> the benchmark center after proving that, we ramped up the users by
another
> 50%, just for fun.  ;-)
>
>
> Tim Snyder
> Consulting I/T Specialist , U2 Professional Services
> North American Lab Services
> DB2 Information Management, IBM Software Group
> 717-545-6403
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ---
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> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Timothy Snyder]

"Stevenson, Charles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/22/2005 
12:59:53 PM:

> I suppose the test environment has been disassembled already, but it
> sure would be good to turn on logging & give it a nother go.  Can you
> keep that in mind for the future?

The system has been dismantled, so there's no chance to run anything else. 
 Unfortunately, the type of tests that are performed are dictated by the 
people who are paying for the time in the benchmark center.  Since this is 
by no means cheap, it's difficult to add things that we think would be 
interesting.  Each test took almost eight hours to prepare, execute and 
gather statistics, so it was difficult to squeeze in extra stuff.

Now, if somebody's willing to sponsor a huge-scale test like this with TL 
turned on and off, I'd be thrilled to put something together...


Tim Snyder
Consulting I/T Specialist , U2 Professional Services
North American Lab Services
DB2 Information Management, IBM Software Group
717-545-6403
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Stevenson, Charles]

I suppose the test envirnoment has been disassembled already, but it
sure would be good to turn on logging & give it a nother go.  Can you
keep that in mind for the future?

TXLG is expected by people I deal with.  They don't take UV seriously
without Transaction Logging (meaning update logging).

cds

> From: Timothy Snyder
> 
> "Stevenson, Charles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote on
> 11/22/2005 11:44:26 AM:
> 
> > Tim,
> > Was transaction logging or data replication used?
> 
> You're not the first person to ask that.  Unfortunately these 
> were not part of the goals of this load test.
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Timothy Snyder]

"Stevenson, Charles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote on 
11/22/2005 11:44:26 AM:

> Tim,
> Was transaction logging or data replication used?

You're not the first person to ask that.  Unfortunately these were not 
part of the goals of this load test.


> Can you share any interesting performance stats comparing w/ vs w/o TX
> or DR?

I don't have anything formal to share.  We've done some testing, but don't 
have anything formal.  Naturally, the overhead of these products is highly 
dependent on the nature of the application employed.  Something that does 
a lot of updates will have a different performance profile than something 
that's heavy on reads.  And large record/transaction sizes will create a 
large amount of logging and/or replication activity as compared with 
something that has smaller records and/or transactions.


Tim Snyder
Consulting I/T Specialist , U2 Professional Services
North American Lab Services
DB2 Information Management, IBM Software Group
717-545-6403
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Stevenson, Charles]

Tim,
Was transaction logging or data replication used?
Can you share any interesting performance stats comparing w/ vs w/o TX
or DR?
cds
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Allen E. Elwood]

>on an IBM p590 + 64 dual core CPUs for a total of 128 processors

HA I have a bigger processor on my microwave!!!

{{{Kidding!}}}

Really, quite impressive.  Any cost per user data available?  Just
wondering...
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Timothy Snyder]

"David Jordan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/22/2005 12:02:04 AM:

> I am also curious if the transactions were simple or complex 
transactions.

Each of the 10,000 users was performing a variety of transactions, some 
simple and some complex, all typical of real life for the proposed system. 
 There were 30 individual activities in the scenario, designed to provide 
a simulation of the proposed production work load.  All of the activities 
were performed by each user.  This included creating new orders, key 
look-ups, index look-ups on full and partial values, a multi-screen 
maintenance procedure, and others.  The actual production code was used, 
including all entry screens, to ensure there would be no concerns about a 
"mocked-up" simulation.  Simulated users were pushed from a p570 running 4 
LPARs so the burden of administering the load would not be imposed on the 
database server.  The simulated users appeared to the database server as 
telnet sessions, again to most closely simulate a real-world scenario.

The initial goal was to make sure UniVerse could handle the proposed 
production load and that a file of greater than a terabyte with over a 
billion rows would not cause problems.  Since we had some spare time at 
the benchmark center after proving that, we ramped up the users by another 
50%, just for fun.  ;-)


Tim Snyder
Consulting I/T Specialist , U2 Professional Services
North American Lab Services
DB2 Information Management, IBM Software Group
717-545-6403
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Peter Gonzalez]

Columbia Ultimate, http://www.columbiaultimate.com/ has the best bench mark 
tool I have seen. It would be interesting to see how their software "The 
Collector" performs with 15,000 plus users.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Jordan
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:02 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

Impressive Stephen!  Would you have some details on cost per transaction and
transactions processed per second?  I am sure a number of IT managers out
there would like some figures.

Whilst I suspect transactions per second may not be that different to
RDBMSs, I am sure the cost would outshine the RDBMSs.  

I am also curious if the transactions were simple or complex transactions.
Many transaction tests are done on a simple process as reading a row and
doing a simple update.  If they did the test where a complex calculation
like some complex tax calculation had to be done as part of the update,
where they had to read multiple cross reference files and update multiple
files as part of the transaction.  I suspect that there would be an
exponential decline in RDBM TPS.  The longer a record is locked in an RDBMS
the greater the problems they have.  They have in the past suffered
performance issues in locking a single row and tend lock a group of records,
so one can start imagining the issues with complex transaction in a high
transaction load.

Thanks for bringing this information to our attention

Regards

David Jordan
Managing Consultant
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[David Jordan]

Impressive Stephen!  Would you have some details on cost per transaction and
transactions processed per second?  I am sure a number of IT managers out
there would like some figures.

Whilst I suspect transactions per second may not be that different to
RDBMSs, I am sure the cost would outshine the RDBMSs.  

I am also curious if the transactions were simple or complex transactions.
Many transaction tests are done on a simple process as reading a row and
doing a simple update.  If they did the test where a complex calculation
like some complex tax calculation had to be done as part of the update,
where they had to read multiple cross reference files and update multiple
files as part of the transaction.  I suspect that there would be an
exponential decline in RDBM TPS.  The longer a record is locked in an RDBMS
the greater the problems they have.  They have in the past suffered
performance issues in locking a single row and tend lock a group of records,
so one can start imagining the issues with complex transaction in a high
transaction load.

Thanks for bringing this information to our attention

Regards

David Jordan
Managing Consultant
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



NOTICE:

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and may contain copyright and / or legally privileged information.  If you
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Re: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Dan Fitzgerald]

What? You couldn't get it to 15,201?




From: Clifton Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:12:39 -0800



Yeah. Isn't it a shame U2 doesn't scale?



:-)


I can hardly wait to trot out that number next time I'm stuck in a  room 
with a bunch of Oracle DBA's.




On Nov 21, 2005, at 4:13 PM, Kate Stanton wrote:


Wow!  Good to hear these stories. Thanks.
- Original Message - From: "Stephen O'Neal"  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse


This last weekend, we attained a new high number of users on a U2  
database

of 15,200 on a single system running an application!

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Re: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Dawn Wolthuis]

On 11/21/05, Stephen O'Neal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This last weekend, we attained a new high number of users on a U2 database
> of 15,200 on a single system running an application!
>
> Tim Snyder, Principle Consultant of the U2 Lab Services group, performed
> this formal benchmark at one of the IBM benchmark centers on an
> IBM p590
> + 64 dual core CPUs for a total of 128 processors
> + 124gb memory (no, that's not a typo - that's all the benchmark center
> had available - odd number though)
> + 34 disk drives, striped with JFS2 on two FAStT controllers
>
> It required an IBM p570 divided into 4 LPARs (logical partitions) to push
> the load which simulated 30 different processes. It took 6 weeks of
> preparation before the 3 weeks to set up the simulation at the benchmark
> facility.
>
> The application was from Pacific Decision Sciences Corporation
> (www.pdsc.com ).
>
> The database had over 1 billion records in it.


Very cool, Steve! You aren't interested in suggesting any comparative
figures with any of IBM's other DBMS tools, are you? How would this compare
to DB2 accessing the same data (not just 1 billion rows as I would guess
this data would normalize to more than that) on the same hardware? You
likely cannot give an answer on that, but if you have any comparison with
any other DBMS tools, such as Oracle or SQL Server, that would be wonderful.
Thanks for passing along this benchmark data. Cheers! --dawn

We thought this was pretty cool. And yes, people are dancing in Denver!
> Steve
>
> Stephen M. O'Neal, CDP & IBM U2 Certified
> Services Sales Specialist
> North America U2 Lab Services
> Information Management, IBM Software Group
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--
Dawn M. Wolthuis
Tincat Group, Inc.

Take and give some delight today!
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Re: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Clifton Oliver]

Yeah. Isn't it a shame U2 doesn't scale?



:-)


I can hardly wait to trot out that number next time I'm stuck in a  
room with a bunch of Oracle DBA's.




On Nov 21, 2005, at 4:13 PM, Kate Stanton wrote:


Wow!  Good to hear these stories. Thanks.
- Original Message - From: "Stephen O'Neal"  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse


This last weekend, we attained a new high number of users on a U2  
database

of 15,200 on a single system running an application!

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Re: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse

[Kate Stanton]

Wow!  Good to hear these stories. Thanks.
- Original Message - 
From: "Stephen O'Neal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: [U2] 15,200 users attained on IBM's U2 UniVerse



This last weekend, we attained a new high number of users on a U2 database
of 15,200 on a single system running an application!

 We thought this was pretty cool.  And yes, people are dancing in 
Denver!

  Steve

  Stephen M. O'Neal, CDP &  IBM U2 Certified
  Services Sales Specialist
  North America U2 Lab Services
  Information Management, IBM Software Group
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