Re: [Bug 108057] Re: Romanian layout with ș and ț in it is not among the options in the GU I
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 07:17:43 -, Mihai Capotă wrote: What does Yahoo mail have to do with this bug? As you said yourself, the encoding doesn't support cedilla characters either. I was only trying to identify (vaguely) the target users affected by this discussion. Yahoo users (apparently a large Romanian community) are not affected, I mean from this point of view it does not matter which Romanian layout becomes the default one. Cristi -- Cristian Secară http://www.secarica.ro/ -- Romanian layout with ș and ț in it is not among the options in the GUI https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 108057] Re: Romanian layout with ș and ț in it is not among the options in the GU I
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 08:00:46 -, ctomer wrote: How many Windows XP user will be affected by this change? It would only be Romanian XP users who access content written by Romanian users of the very latest version of Ubuntu, right? That's not a significant number of users, is it? Today, most computer users are Windows XP users :) In my opinion the true compatibility problem comes merely from legacy applictions, rather than from documents exchange between users. What is the 8 bit versus Unicode situation on Linux ? How many applications requires Latin 2 as mandatory ? What is the workaround in such cases ? Other than that, I tend to agree with Jani Monoses's comment still, if those correct characters are not getting used the situation will persist indefinitely. Cristi -- Cristian Secară http://www.secarica.ro/ -- Romanian layout with ș and ț in it is not among the options in the GUI https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 108057] Re: Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:06:47 -, Mişu Moldovan wrote: 3) The default layout in the Romanian xkeyboard-config file will change when most people will be able to *read* the commabelow diacritics. I won't call them clueless or ignorant or whatever. ETA: 6 to 18 months. How long it will take for a change here to appear there ? I mean the propagation delay. When will be the end user affected by a today's change [in Ubuntu, and/or else] ? Cristi -- Cristian Secară http://www.secarica.ro/ -- Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 108057] Re: Romanian layout with ș and ț in it is not among the options in the GU I
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:59:01 -, Mihai Capotă wrote: Let's not forget there's a patch from Microsoft that adds support for ș and ț in Windows XP. Yes, but only for displaying ș and ț, not for generating ș and ț from keyboard (it is basically a font update, nothing more). Although a good thing, the update is limited to the most used fonts: Arial and Times New Roman (for printed documents), Verdana (for web) and Trebuchet (they said this is for MS Office, but I know that this also solves a titlebar issue when the user selected desktop appearance is Windows XP instead of Windows Classic). Another problem is that the font update download *) (not the actual install) requires genuine validation check, which I doubt it will pass on many home users. In my opinion this will affect the reading on web-based forums, but less the e-mail, because most home users appears to be Yahoo mail users **). The standard Yahoo mail interface generates broken encoding declaration anyway (it is fixed to ISO-8859-1) and will ignore the incoming mail encoding declaration anyway (it treates all incoming mail as ISO-8859-1), so most Yahoo mail users will see garbage, regardless the cedila or comma story ***). *) http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=0ec6f335-c3de-44c5-a13d-a1e7cea5ddeaDisplayLang=en **) merely my own supposition; comments on this may be required ***) this may change if their new beta interface will become widely used, which I doubt Cristi -- Cristian Secară http://www.secarica.ro/ -- Romanian layout with ș and ț in it is not among the options in the GUI https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 108057] Re: Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:58:13 -, Jani Monoses wrote: Romanian Standard (called academic in xkb) Romanian Programmers (called comma in xkb) Romanian Legacy(?) (Called winkeys in xkb) Please ask Mişu Moldovan for more info about the academic name. I remember there was an issue with someone (Sorin Paliga) who claimed its acceptance for the use of the name academic for keyboard layout. Perhaps a simple request sent to Sorin Paliga may solve the dispute (Sorin is a Mac user). His e-mail is paliga AT bastral DOT ro and/or sorin_paliga AT mac DOT com Maybe Mişu Moldovan can tell more on this. This is best solved by upstream, it's not an Ubuntu issue, so xkeyboard-config should be told after there's some consensus what the best way to change the layout file (if at all - it may need to include keys for the diacritics used by minority languages in Ro) Please look at this documents: http://www.secarica.ro/kbdro_help_romanian_standard_en.pdf http://www.secarica.ro/kbdro_help_romanian_programmers_en.pdf While the Romanian keyboard standard does not force which accented characters should be generated by the use of the dead keys, the actual implementation should take care of the official minorities. The above documents claims to cover all those. Another comment: - decimal separator from layout 1 generates comma - decimal separator from layout 2 generates dot For each, AltGr+[decimal separator] generates the opposite. Maybe this is a detail that counts in which default keyboard should be offered at install time, for example when some initial IP are set up, or something else. Or maybe not. But it is better to look at all aspects ... Cristi -- Cristian Secară http://www.secarica.ro/ -- Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 108057] Re: Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
Maybe some further info might help: - the Linguistic Institute of the Romanian Academy only defines a comma unde s and t, so this is the way to go for any new project; cedilla unde s and t simply does not exists, officially speaking - the cedilla under s and t is there only beacuse back in 1987 the ISO 8859-2 (Latin 2) standard associated these two characters with the Romanian language - one of the reason for the above was that no Unicode characters s and t with comma below existed at that time; these have been introduced later, with Unicode version 3.0 - for 8 bit representation, the only standard that suits the Romanian language is ISO 8859-16 (Latin 10), which only appeared in 2001 - the only character recommended by the Linguistic Institute of the Romanian Academy that is outside the ISO 8859-16 standard is a character for dialog and white pause, of equal lenght, which is longer than the hyphen sign; in the Romanian keyboard standard, this has been associated with the en-dash (U+2013) - Microsoft has no support for correct Romanian language in 8 bit representation; their CP1250 codepage is based around ISO 8859-2; no CP based on ISO 8859-16 actually exists; however, Microsoft strongly discourages *any* non-Unicode approach, so most likely 8 bit support for correct Romanian language will never be implemented (which is not that bad, in my opinion) - officially, the Romanian language is normally supported by ISO/IEC 10646-1:2003 (i.e. Unicode) standard and by ISO/IEC 8859-16:2001 (Latin 10) standard if 8 bit support is explicitly required - the correct Romanian ortography is enforced by law; because of this, Microsoft was forced to add support for correct Romanian language; this is limited to Unicode implementations, because the 8 bit support is officially discontinued; to date, only limited support is provided for WinXP (four updated fonts, Arial, Times New Roman, Trebuchet and Verdana); on the other hand, the fonts traditionally used for UI are already correct since long time ago (Microsoft Sans Serif and Tahoma); Palatino Linotype is also always correct Now: the ş and ţ with cedilla should be left there only for backward compatibility reasons with some older applications. New keyboard layouts containing cedillas are NOT recommended, but may be necessary in some circumstances. I don't know the past situation on Linux systems. I will describe wat is today the situation on Windows Vista: - the old Microsoft Windows Romanian keyboard layout, formerly called Romanian, is still there for compatibility reasons; it has been renamed to Romanian (Legacy); the layout uses ş and ţ with cedilla, as before, and is a QWERTZ layout, as before - layout 1 from the Romanian keyboard standard has been implemented with the name Romanian (Standard); this one is considered the main Romanian keyboard layout, because it provides access to the complete Romanian alphabet directly on first level; this layout was first introduced as a standard in 1998 and has been later revised in 2004; this layout uses *only* ș and ț with comma below - layout 2 from the Romanian keyboard standard has been implemented with the name Romanian (Programmers); this ons has been added in the 2004 standard version merely as a facility (1) for programmers who only occasionally write in true Romanian language and (2) for Linux users who claimed they wanted US keyboard al the time, but wanted to be able to write in true Romanian language on purpose; this is true mainly for console users (or a mix), not for desktop-only users; this layout uses *only* ș and ț with comma below It is important to note that the Romanian keyboard standard provides no mandatory names for its layouts, it only *recommends* Romanian for layout 1 and Romanian (Programmers) for layout 2. Beacuse of old existing layout names, in practice simply stay with Romanian with no other suffix may lead to confusions. As far as I know, on Linux the most preferred layout is the second layout, that one which in Vista is called Romanian (Programmers). Giving the fact that this one has been introduced somewhat as a special request by Linux users, maybe it should be the default one, however, this should really be state by Linux users, not by me. The law recommends layout 1 as THE one, but does not force (by law) neither of the two in particular. As a personal opinion, the Windows Vista Romanian keyboard layout names are quite well choosed. My keyboard layout driver for Windows XP now follows the exact names from Vista. Additionally I have build an additional two layouts, with the single difference that they are using ş and ţ with cedilla. These are not recommended to be used, but I agree that sometimes there is no other way round. My keyboard layout names are like that: - Romanian (Standard) - Romainan (Standard, with cedilla) - Romanian (Programmers) - Romanian (Programmers, with cedilla) - Romainan (Legacy) As stated before, the first, third and fifth
[Bug 108057] Re: Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
The reason for using cedillas in the page explaining why the cedilla is wrong, is because the correct glyphs are missing from Windows systems prior to Vista version. Unlike Firefox or Opera, Internet Explorer up to version 6 is unable to make substitution for missing glyphs, so in order for a Windows user to be able to read what I have written, cedillas were used instead. The same apply for many other Romanian web pages as well and I am expecting this situation to remain unchanged for the next 1-2 years, maybe even more. Cristi -- Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
