[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Button spacing of light theme too small. The Close Minimize Maximize buttons are too close to each other. Aiming for one and not miss click on another is difficult. The button spacing on MacOS feels better. Also it may looks better too. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I have no pain in my wrist anymore from constantly left-right moving the cursor and 30miles left-right mouse path a year, now is shorten to 2 miles. With a launcher on the left and apps and folders search on the fly, I do my job in 2 seconds. This is proven fact. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Bhaavan Merchant 532...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: Sorry, I didnt want to sound accusatory or anything. But for me, the reason I switched to linux was the ability to customize it for me. This Unity is taking more and more of it away from me. That's a non sequitur. Linux is still as customizable as ever, there's just one particular program on Linux that you wish to customize that isn't very customizable: Unity. No matter how elegant and simple they make Unity, you'll always be able to swap it out for something with a lot more knobs to tweak. It is impossible for Unity to subtract from the customizability of Linux. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
From android to mac osx, GNOME-shell... not a single one can be customized, so why do you guys think that Ubuntu should be everything for everybody? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
/mode #launchpad-ex-bug-tracker +b pablo!unity@macfanboy.getalife -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
/me has unsubscribed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On 28 November 2011 09:12, Pako 532...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: Spock do something, there is an intruder here! Spock! The computer! Destroy it! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Spock do something, there is an intruder here! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
To all right buttons advocates Lets say tomorrow Ubuntu officials decide to turn back the buttons to the right and after tomorrow you realize that Fedora fits better to you, or just reinstall all of your computers with Windows because your girlfriend said so and you'll do that with such an easy because you've never pay for Linux, leave Ubuntu and never back again. So, do you think it's fair especially for developers to meet your daily needs and wishes because of this? You know what? I appreciate Clement Lefebvre has done with Linux Mint or Mark with Ubuntu, he does not PULE for better customization, he build his own OS. Right is better? Is better my a**!! Prove it scientifically and I'll unsubscribe the same minute. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Pako : you can't prove an opinion, which is what left vs right is. @bhaavanmerchant : You should be able to change theme from the appearance menu - no need for anything else. I typically install Shiki-Color from the repo, then switch to that. The buttons will instantly be back to normal. @Everyone, this bug is now closed. Mark has left the discussion (he's not notified directly of these comments any more), the bug status is won't fix and the default positioning is staying on the left. You can still, so far, simply change them back to the right again. This bug report is now (always was, in hindsight) just noise and I'm un- subscribing from it too. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ Bhaavan Merchant (bhaavanmerchant) on APEing the mac. Yes, and the launcher on the right is copied from Next OS back in 80's and Apple's design is borrowed from the Braun's electronic devices made in 60's + the system is based (copied) on Unix and Otto motor + 90% of the things you are enjoy today are invented by Germans so that now can be used (copied) by Japanese and others, so your statement about someone copied some others design, is superficial. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Sorry, I didnt want to sound accusatory or anything. But for me, the reason I switched to linux was the ability to customize it for me. This Unity is taking more and more of it away from me. From this 11.10 release of Ubuntu, to get my controls on my right, ill need to change theme. For this, ill need to use a gnome-tweak-tool, which will install gnome3 shell as dependency. So to get my unity correct, ill need to go install gnome-shell which was the main thing unity wished to avoid. My preferred solution would be have a drop down asking user to choose between right and left controls where theme is being selected. Alternatively, something like a config file in /etc where i just change the value to right. The hierarchy in dconf gconf is too complicated and not user-intuitive. Also in favor of right sided controls, I still maintain: 1) It is easier for right handed people. 2) Most people come from a Windows background. This I say from the fact that 90% of OS share is windows. They are used to a convention of right sided windows control. Ubuntu is perceived as a distro to which makes linux transition easy. Thus, right handed controls will only help making Unity more usable. Again, you may feel that my generalization i wrong or not apt. But I personally have come from a certain background and I find a certain convention favorable and easy. Unity should not force its choices on me without leaving an option to revert back. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Just forget it. Ubuntu Design want it this way so it's the greatest thing ever. Maybe they'll change their minds later and return it to the right, THEN that would be it's the greatest thing ever. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
The issue here is that most people in the world are right handed. For right handed people, it is much more convenient to move mouse to top right or bottom left. Thus this is where windows controls should be. I personally feel that the move to shift the button to left was just APEing the mac. Also I suggest have a default installed interface to switch the position of the controllers rather than having people to use gconf / dconf editor. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
You are way late to the party here mate. :) With the Unity up and running this change makes perfect sense. The close button is in the top left corner of the screen and is very accessible. I was a skeptic, but now I am converted. Minor quible: it is not in the very corner but a few pixels off, but I guess to prevent people closing windows by accidentally brushing the mouse. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 Title: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ Maia and @ Tory , I believe there is a way from the Appearance preferences dialog to move the buttons to the right, without having to mess around with gconf or UbuntuTweak for that matter. Once you are in the Theme tab, choose the Clearlooks theme. This will move the buttons to the right since Clearlooks is unchaged from the original Clearlooks theme. Then goto Customize and select the Ambiance/Radiance controls and the rest of the settings as you wish. This way I believe the window buttons continue to stay to the right ! P.S. @ Maia If the above procedure does indeed work, maybe you could mention it on your blog, where a few people have mentioned the necessity of using Ubuntu Tweak just for this purpose. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Nandan: that's a lot of explaination for something which could easily be integrated into the Appearance preferences. Also, most users will never discover that on their own. Here is an easy way (though also not easy for users to find this - if only it was included by default into Ubuntu...): install MWbuttons [1], then go to Applications Accessories Metacity Window Buttons and you can directly select a layout for your buttons - nothing more, nothing less. [1] https://launchpad.net/~pabluk/+archive/ppa/+files/mwbuttons_0.2.4-0ubuntu1~ppa2_all.deb -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I see no reason to at least make the button placement configurable in the UI. As it stands, since it's only configurable via a hidden gconf setting, people turn to applications like Ubuntu Tweak, with known security issues, to change it. It would be nice to have a separate UI to specifically configure Ayatana's additions to GNOME. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
^^^ I'd say that is very reasonable. Considering that I unfortunately work back and forth between windows and ubuntu, having the buttons on the other side throws my muscle memory out of whack making me less productive. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ willdye, and others I strongly believe that default settings in general should do whatever users are most likely to expect -- especially new users I remember that the main problem about the layout was The new users will complain and dislike the left side buttons. There are hundreds of new launchpad members every day seeking a solution to their problems on Ask A Question, so please, the math is simple, ask the moderators of launchpad to find all the issues associated with Left Layout and once we analyze it, it's worth to continue the discussion here. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Pako wrote: @ willdye, and others I strongly believe that default settings in general should do whatever users are most likely to expect -- especially new users I remember that the main problem about the layout was The new users will complain and dislike the left side buttons. There are hundreds of new launchpad members every day seeking a solution to their problems on Ask A Question, so please, the math is simple, ask the moderators of launchpad to find all the issues associated with Left Layout and once we analyze it, it's worth to continue the discussion here. My biggest complaint is moving between 10.4 and other releases. I have to do a mental shift and that means a distraction, which means lost work. It's not that I don't like it, I just think the default should be status quo, and let the user decide later. ...Ken -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
It's funny how Ubuntu got big by laying emphasis on the community and now you are doing things like this one here. The movement of the window buttons is just one of many reasons I'm currently wiping out all Ubuntus and replacing them with Debian Squeeze (which is, even if it is testing, much more stable, does regard the GNOME standard, doesn't have ads, IS a democracy, plus the devs don't customize the UI to death). On a laptop of a friend where Jaunty was installed she was prompted to upgrade to Lucid. I was surprised to hear that. A dist upgrade can break the system: why are you prompting users to do it??? Anyway... she clicked through, the upgrade was rolling. Sure enough afterward the system was broken and I had to fix it up. Lucid had multiple annoying bugs on that laptop too. I took the /home partition over to Squeeze. Went really smooth. One Ubuntu less. I also don't recommend Ubuntu to other people anymore. I try to hook them up with Debian for their own good as I can somewhat foresee that this is just the beginning of more unpleasant decisions. Goodbye Ubuntu. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
For months ago I was commenting here, predicting all the awful things that would happen after upgrading computers in our organization to 10.04, and confronting people with left side buttons layout (look at my comment #526: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light- themes/+bug/532633/comments/526). And you know what? I was completely wrong. Nothing really significant happened. I got on or two people from administration saying that they can't close a window, because the button disappeared. After I showed them the button on the left side it was the last time I heard about the issue. This also happened when I was already looking over their shoulder, so there is a good chance they would otherwise figure this out on their own. I also got one person commenting Ubuntu is coping Apple. But the main effect of the whole redesign is that for the first people noticed a new version of Ubuntu. We are using Ubuntu since version 6.06, upgrading computers every six months. For the first time I had people coming to me asking about the new version and it's features. Nothing terrible happend. I think it wasn't that important. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
much more stable, does regard the GNOME standard, doesn't have ads, IS a democracy, plus the devs don't customize the UI to death). where is ad in ubuntu? On a laptop of a friend where Jaunty was installed she was prompted to upgrade to Lucid. I was surprised to hear that. A dist upgrade can break the system: why are you prompting users to do it i think it depends all on the system configuration. The dev teams are doing their best to enable you to upgrade the distribution. Don't take it for granted that somebody invests work to enable you a upgrade from an older version. I also don't recommend Ubuntu to other people anymore. I try to hook them up with Debian for their own good as I can somewhat foresee that this is just the beginning of more unpleasant decisions. Despite the windows border issue i'm quit happy with lucid. You get LTS (longer than debian i think) and you get cutting edge software version. Also i think the community in ubuntu is much more beginner friendly than the debian community. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Ok, I was in the first two or five rounds of this discussion and I have to say that at this point any further discussion is moot. The real bug was that Mark and others did not consider the possibility at people would hate the changed in the UI. And by hate, I mean, running screaming in the street effigy burning, storm the Bastille, throw the tea in the harbor, *HATE* the UI. I'm pretty sure they expected some people to dislike it, but not hate it. When they realized they had a real problem they fixed it. All you have to do it to go to appearance in the preferences menu and select the old human theme and you get all the goodness of 10.4 with a nice livable theme. They didn't do that at first, no, they gave us set of instructions that required you to start a command line program and directly edit a control string. Getting the string wrong could mean losing the buttons on your windows. It was a pain but it worked. Now, you just have to click through a couple of menus and click on the old theme and you are done. What they finally did is what they should have done in the first case, they put in their new ideas for a theme and made it easy for people like you and I to keep our old theme. It would have been nice if they made that an option at installation time, but they really do want to make Ubuntu look that way. Now, let me make a comment to all the folks who left Ubuntu and are not coming back and all the people who are threatening to leave if this doesn't get fixed. Nobody at Ubuntu gives a *SHIT* what you do. Mark is a very smart person. He wants to make Ubuntu into a true commpetitor with Windows. He wants to make a few billion dollars doing it. He has already vacationed on the IIS, maybe he want to build his own orbital resort. It would be a perfectly logical next thing if he had the money, who knows. Maybe he just likes being the rich. I know I like having more money than I need. A fat wallet feels a lot like... *FREEDOM*. So why doesn't he care if you leave? Well, are you a customer of his? If customers leave in large numbers then a company has something to worry about. But, if you are not a customer then why would the company care about anything you do? Mark is trying to monetize Ubuntu. To do that he has given it a look that appeals to a demographic who spend a shit load of money buying digital goods. Marks last big money maker was another company that sold a digital good. Those kinds of companies can make a butt load of money. That demographic also is very influenced by how cool something looks. (BTW, cool is pronounced something like Khol where you kind of swallow the kwo sound. Pronouncing it correctly is very important.) So now Ubuntu looks right to that demographic. He has added the ability to purchase music and to use all your existing mp3s with Ubuntu. (Did you notice the codexs included in 10.4?) And, he has provided a way to store your digital goods online, UbuntuOne is pretty nice and I expect it will become *awsome* and the music store hidden away in RhythmBox is all most to good to be true. Even though I am almost 60 I decided to move to 10.4 despite because of those two new features. With the move to get Ubuntu into instant on dual boot computers coupled with the UbuntuOne and the music store people will not have to wait for Windows to boot to do all the most popular things people do with laptops and netbooks. The result will be lots of money going to Ubuntu for operating system software, for music, and maybe for some online services as well. The people who buy software, and music, and online services from Ubuntu are it's customers. If you don't do any of those things then you are not a customer. Guess what, if you are not a customer then no company has any reason to care if you stop using the free portion of their product. They don't care if you switch to Fedora or to Debian. While I do not like the effect that these changes have had on me, I completely understand what Mark is doing and I think he is going after the right demographic. There are damned few people like me who are ever going to be his customers. Giving me a painless way to get back to the UI I like while still giving me the chance to use Ubuntu and maybe to become a customer is a reasonable thing for them to do. And, they have done it. Bob Pendleton On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Ubuntu-Me 532...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: I think it is important to consider not that I an others have gone back to Karmic Ubuntu, or that we left initially due to the User Interface issues pertaining to Lucid's (MacBuntu) feel, but rather the bigger picture. The loss of trust in Canonical's ability to maintain stability over time. As a long time Ubuntu fan, it is a heartbreak to find myself running away from 'MacBuntu and once again due to stability issues. While adding options to software is fine. Forcing them upon users will only serve to reduce membership. Rather then
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I think it is important to consider not that I an others have gone back to Karmic Ubuntu, or that we left initially due to the User Interface issues pertaining to Lucid's (MacBuntu) feel, but rather the bigger picture. The loss of trust in Canonical's ability to maintain stability over time. As a long time Ubuntu fan, it is a heartbreak to find myself running away from 'MacBuntu and once again due to stability issues. While adding options to software is fine. Forcing them upon users will only serve to reduce membership. Rather then deal with Mark's mistakes directly, and I think I speak for many, I can only say one thing. (DEBIAN !) After trying Debian I became convinced that it was far better for me. I first ran Debian from a Virtual box. Its like Ubuntu and in fact Ubuntu has its roots there. One difference is Mark is not there, and the buttons are where they should always be. MacBuntu is not for me, and I know that others might also be reading these posts. I saw many thngs wrong with Ubuntu 10.04. Speed problems and GUI button placement. Ubuntu was a nice ride while it lasted, and for that I am greatful. After running Debian for the first time I was sold in almost no time flat. They pride themselves on stability and SPEED ! I say this to all Ubuntu fans like myself. If you don't like Mark's button ideas give Debian a test run. Perhaps like I did. In a VirtualBox. Impressive ! Let Ubuntu learn the Microsoft lesson. Seems like many companies seem to need to learn from mistakes these days. Switching the buttons is a big mistake. It got me looking in other directions, and while I have run Red Hat, and Suse, I never tried Debian. Until my buttons changed to the left that is. If Ubuntu goes to the left and you don't like it try Debian. You will be impressed and I am no longer looking back. So long Ubuntu ! If at first you don't succeed try try again 8-P -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 13:23, Ubuntu-Me 532...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: Rather then deal with Mark's mistakes directly, and I think I speak for many, I can only say one thing. ( DEBIAN ! ) My problem with debian the last time I tried it is that I need to do much more things by hand and they have very old versions of some programs in their repositories only. - But maybe you are using the testing version and not the stable. I tried several other distributions also but had issues with Fedora also for example. I like(d) Ubuntu for making most things work out-of-the-box or with just a few clicks. I can't frickle around at each new user with Hardware xy. Unfortunately, even with the mobile internet sticks which were used to work out-of-the-box for me I got more and more troubles lately. However, I could help them being solved in Lucid during beta - but this is off-topic here. The point for me is: It is not so easy to find the right distribution - either had a hardware lately that only works with Suse (no other distri tested worked) although I avoid Suse where I can. In reality there should be more and better cooperation in the Linux world between distributions. With actions like this - and now we get back to the topic finally - the Ubuntu team is causing separation and not uniting forces which would be so important for the whole Linux community. -- Martin Wildam -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On 23/07/10 13:18, Martin Wildam wrote: In reality there should be more and better cooperation in the Linux world between distributions. With actions like this - and now we get back to the topic finally - the Ubuntu team is causing separation and not uniting forces which would be so important for the whole Linux community. I'd like to hear your justification for that statement. We've: - built a bug tracker that explicitly lets us share bugs and fixes with other distributions and upstreams (and is still the only open source comprehensive hosting platform) - consistently invited people from other distributions (debian, red hat, suse) to our conference, even sponsoring them - supported multiple efforts to converge on open standards across desktop environments and distributions You're entitled to your opinions, but simply repeating something you heard (potentially from a competitor) is a poor way to form or shape opinions. Mark -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I can't say that I initially liked the buttons on the left... and it irritated me that I couldn't move them back, however thanks to this thread I know how to move them, and knowing that I can... I haven't... I think that's a worthwhile lesson TBH, force a change and it will upset people, but if they have the option to change it back, 99% of people won't. At the moment, it does look a bit illogical... but as I understand it, the remaining section of the title bar will be used for something else... so probably the jury is still out on if the eventual outcome will be good... I'm betting it will be. As for the previous poster suggesting that this is the reason to move to another distribution... IMO, that's ridiculous... Ubuntu has clearly made huge strides in the last few releases and 10.04 is no different... if you don't like the window controls on the left, move them back to the right and chill! IMO, we should spend more time worrying about getting BTRFS in, and personally I'd like to see a GUI to manage LUKS encrypted volumes files... so we can steer people away from truecrypt, rather than spending so much effort debating such a simple change as if some buttons are on the left or the right. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 15:09, Mark Shuttleworth 532...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: On 23/07/10 13:18, Martin Wildam wrote: the Ubuntu team is causing separation and not uniting forces which would be so important for the whole Linux community. I'd like to hear your justification for that statement. We've: - built a bug tracker that explicitly lets us share bugs and fixes with other distributions and upstreams (and is still the only open source comprehensive hosting platform) - consistently invited people from other distributions (debian, red hat, suse) to our conference, even sponsoring them - supported multiple efforts to converge on open standards across desktop environments and distributions Don't get me wrong please! - I was really not talking about the infrastructure and about your community activities! The whole launchpad is awesome very effective KISS software - Participating in the Ubuntu community is a lot more pleasureful for me than e.g. in Fedora/redhat world (at least my experience). I was talking about decisions like the positioning of the buttons. This and some other decisions have been taken without coordinating with the community. I read a lot of Linux related blogs and listen to a lot of Linux related podcasts. The vast majority of people is definitely agains decisions like this - changing window control buttons. I do consider myself as a GTD focus person and mouse miles driven vastly increased (not just because I was first moving right and then left only after discovering that the buttons are not there any more. ;-) ) You're entitled to your opinions, but simply repeating something you heard (potentially from a competitor) is a poor way to form or shape opinions. Again, I was not talking about the general interaction with the community or the service in general! I was talking about a few design decisions that have been taken without really considering the opinion of the community. And I am not just repeating what I have heard or read elsewhere - it is my very own experience that I only get confirmed when readin/listening on the web. I am trying hard to spread the word for Ubuntu and my testing and intallations done for friends, I do in the nights when family sleeps and all other work is done. I face a lot of potential new end users and I am working in IT business for about 20 years (mostly as software developer), so I think I have some experience regarding usability. And it is not, that I am not flexible: If you can give me something on the free space at the Window border that I find awesome useful, I am willing to adapt. That said, I am quite sure that the new feature could also perfectly go to the left so the minimize, maximize and close buttons could remain where they have ever been. And: Why not waiting with that change until the new feature is availble? With the current situation I do face either different themes design broken because they got hit in the cold with the change in 10.04 - oh and as we are talking about 10.04: It is definitely the worst idea introducing such experiments with an LTS - I am far from being alone with this opinion! But let me come to a very positive end of my reply: I am very happy about the fact that you are personally here - never ever would I expect Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Steve Jobs or Larry Ellison to personally read and respond to my feedback - so thumbs up for you! -- Martin Wildam -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 15:36, James Lewis 532...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: As for the previous poster suggesting that this is the reason to move to another distribution... IMO, that's ridiculous... Ubuntu has clearly made huge strides in the last few releases and 10.04 is no different... I do also tend to think that a few bad decisions (that mostly can be fixed by configuration) are not enough reason to change distribution. - Not, when the other distributions do worse (which I tend to think focusing on my personal needs). if you don't like the window controls on the left, move them back to the right and chill! So far, I always changed theme to one that has the buttons on the right as I don't yet remember how to move them to the left by heart. IMO, we should spend more time worrying about getting BTRFS in, and personally I'd like to see a GUI to manage LUKS encrypted volumes files... so we can steer people away from truecrypt, rather than spending so much effort debating such a simple change as if some buttons are on the left or the right. As far as I have read (not my own experience), BTRFS is still considered unstable and I have seen a few benchmark results where BTRFS was faster only in a few of the use cases. From what I have interpreted, Ext4 could be still the best choice for allround-use, but I am not into details - there might be pretty good reasons for pushing BTRFS - however, this is off-topic here. -- Martin Wildam -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
The difference between Debian and Ubuntu is that Ubuntu makes all the choices for you, so that you don't have to think about them. The choices made are made by people that know more about the system than most of us do, so they are very likely are very good choices. However, you might dislike some of the choices - they could be suboptimal to you or your environment. In such cases you can go under the bonnet and change stuff yourself. But still - not having to think about all the other possible choices saves your time for more important and interesting things. If you find that a lot of Ubuntu choices do not look right for you, then Ubuntu might not be optimised for you or your environment and you would find more power and configuration in Debian, but frankly Ubuntu does have all the same knobs as Debian, they are just not as exposed to the unaware users. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 13:36 +, James Lewis wrote: As for the previous poster suggesting that this is the reason to move to another distribution... IMO, that's ridiculous... Ubuntu has clearly made huge strides in the last few releases and 10.04 is no different... if you don't like the window controls on the left, move them back to the right and chill! I could not agree more...I use lots of different linux distros...more all the time with the advent of Virtualization... but Ubuntu is by far the easiest to get setup and configured. Combined with the support options and the general polish that Ubuntu brings to the table...I wouldn't want to change unless there was some major instability or speed issue...and that's certainly not the case with 10.04. Personally, I hate the buttons on the left...its a major usability issue for me on a desktop system...but it took all of 45 seconds to rectify...including the google search! Besides, the wonderful thing about linux systems is that they are so customizable...I have to change dozens of things to suit my preferences...regardless of the distro (I prefer vlc to totem, gvim to gedit, I need to install dev tools... and who keeps the default wallpaper? The list goes on and on...) In my mind, it doesn't make much difference if the buttons are on the left...move them to the right. If there is a complaint to be made, it is that Gnome doesn't provide good enough GUI tools for customizing and/or creating themes...but that's case no matter what distro you are using. Anyway, just my two cents. -- -- Jason Remley International Man of Mystery aqua.qui...@gmail.com The Right's view of government and the Left's view of big business are both correct. --Robert Anton Wilson -- -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
** Tags removed: buttons controls lucid window -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Hi, is there a way for an admin to change the buttons back to the right (for all users of a system)? The suggested workaround only works for my own account. If so, can you add it to the description, please? Thanks in advance, Stefan. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
While I have a lot of respect for the design team, I strongly believe that default settings in general should do whatever users are most likely to expect -- especially new users. By default, window controls should be on the right, with an easy-to-find method available for moving them to the left. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On 5/1/2010 11:58 PM, running_rabbit07 wrote: It has been made very, very, very easy to select a different theme with the buttons on the right. My student users appear quite impressed with 10.04 LTS on the machines where it is installed. So far, very few have changed the default background. Regarding the button locations, many quickly switched to the New Wave which matches the color scheme quite nicely and has the buttons on the right. As for who prefers the buttons on the right versus the left, there is no surprise here. The Mac users think the left side buttons are just wonderful, and many of the rest quickly switched to a right-handed theme. From here this looks like it is going to be one of the best if not the best Ubuntu release so far; most definitely, it's the fastest. Mark Appier -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Avetik Topchyan wrote: IMHO, that has to be configured through GUI, like other settings, and not a through a terminal command. Why make life harder than it should be?.. Ubuntu Tweak can be found, quickly, in the Software-Center. Life can be so easy ... ;-) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Sun, 2010-05-02 at 12:19 +, scholli wrote: Avetik Topchyan wrote: IMHO, that has to be configured through GUI, like other settings, and not a through a terminal command. Why make life harder than it should be?.. Ubuntu Tweak can be found, quickly, in the Software-Center. Life can be so easy ... ;-) I don't think it is in the main repos, one needs to add the ppa: deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/tualatrix/ppa/ubuntu lucid main -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Il giorno sab, 01/05/2010 alle 00.50 +, Avetik Topchyan ha scritto: @soundpartner, firstly, thanks for the script! My hope is that some bright mind would not suddenly decide tomorrow to move these buttons to the bottom of the screen by default. Eureka! what a great innovation would that be! ;) It would free a lot of space at the top for future innovation... (sorry, I couldn't resist) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On 30/04/10 18:33, Jonas Ådahl wrote: Mark, are you planning on making an effort in adding easy way of changing it, for example an option in the appearance dialog? No, quite the reverse, we will make it possible for applications to use the space on the right of the window title bar. Mark -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
** Tags added: buttons controls window -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
...possible for applications to use the space on the right ... Is this a part of a redesign upstream, or will it be Ubuntu specific? Also, will it be compatible between window managers, or limited to Gnome applications? Are there any other places concerning this such as mailing lists, general plan or similar you could point me to? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On 01/05/10 16:15, Jonas Ådahl wrote: ...possible for applications to use the space on the right ... Is this a part of a redesign upstream, We are upstream for the Ayatana indicators. or will it be Ubuntu specific? Depends on whether it is more broadly adoped. Also, will it be compatible between window managers, or limited to Gnome applications? It will depend on a number of other capabilities in the system, but should not be limited to Gnome. The Ayatana work specifically aims to improve the experience across all major desktop environments, we publish code for both Gnome and KDE as a rule. Are there any other places concerning this such as mailing lists, general plan or similar you could point me to? The Ayatana mailing list would be a good start. Mark -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
or will it be Ubuntu specific? Depends on whether it is more broadly adoped. But that's exactly the problem, Mark. What I thought makes difference in Ubuntu is its openness. Instead you are just trying to go the same path as the other guys with we know what's better for you, ignorant user. It would have been really good if you told the public the reason for the change in the button position. It would have been a much nicer way to do it, if you cared to explain what's on your mind. Overall, it seems that very little thought goes into what would users experience. Thought, your goal was to treat users like human beings. :-( P.S. I still think very highly about your Ubuntu in general and appreciate you being such a thorn in the back of Apple and Microsoft. But please don't begin to follow their marketing strategies, because that's what human beings actually hate. This is my last post here, farewell. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Why are you prying for info? If you are interested in what is going on with the right side of the window, then join the group Mark mentioned. It has been made very, very, very easy to select a different theme with the buttons on the right. I did a clean install of Lucid and all of my downloaded right-handed button themes work flawlessly and the buttons are on the right as they were designed. Though I feel the buttons belong on the left now. I have two systems side by side, both with buttons on opposing sides. I am not slowed down when I go from one to the other while working and yes I am constantly using both systems at the same time. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Ubuntu does it again. Screwing over its user-base over and over. And for a LTS you get the Bad Choices Award. *Change reverted as the first act*. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 08:19, Jesper jes...@staunhansen.dk wrote: Ubuntu does it again. Screwing over its user-base over and over. And for a LTS you get the Bad Choices Award. There is a saying: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. So there is hope that they learn from it. ;-) I can't see so many major issues with 10.4 (I participated with testing - although with focus on some particular elements). Anyway my judgement here is: Thumbs up for the developers, Thumbs down for the design team. But although I don't like the dark theme (dark themes in general I find worse for usability) and don't like the button position, I like the light new theme more than older themes. So it is either not a complete thumbs down. -- Martin Wildam -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 09:39, Wildam Martin mwil...@gmail.com wrote: I like the light new theme more than older themes. So it is either not a complete thumbs down. But anyway, although I like the new theme, from usability Clearlooks is better. And this is an issue often designers have: They design for cool look and not for usability. -- Martin Wildam -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Dear Ubuntu developers: please make it easy for users to switch open/close/mimimize buttons whether right or left as they prefer. Not all people enjoy it when you mess around with their habits. By providing more choices you will win-win-win. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I wanted to add to my previous comment: one of the things that bugged me with Mac's interface is the left-side buttons.and their counter- intuitive nature. Windows-style buttons are common, useful, make sense. But I don't like Windows as OS, I would much rather use Linux based OS. I like Ubuntu a lot. But if I am counting on using it for years to come I want to be sure that whoever is involved in developing it does not position it as merely a software project, but rather as a mature platform, something reliable. This requires spending time learning about people's habits, use cases etc. If you don't do this early enough, guess what, users will leave. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Alexander Pas m...@dropdev.org wrote: Dear Mark Shuttleworth, and everyone else thinking it was a good change to place those buttons on the left side of the window. Please go read a book on Interaction Design, for example: About Face 3, ISBN 9780470084113 Now, After you have read that book, explain to me, why you want to have the Ejector Seat Button placed right above the Cockpit Lights Switch. It has been made very clear by Shuttleworth and others at Ubuntu that they have not read any such book and are not interested in reading it and they are not willing to listen to people who have read it. At least not right now. Shuttleworth made his billions by creating a company that sold a highly technical information product, a security certificate, to highly technical customers for a highly technical purpose. But, he sold it at a better price and under more reasonable terms than the competition. That created a lot of value and even though he was not able to actually compete with the high priced vendors he did create a business that he could sell to a high priced vendor. Now, he seems to think that that success qualifies him to create a product for use by non-technical customers for a non-technical purpose. It does not. But, the buttons are only the most visible part of his play in 10.4. The key thing to note about 10.4 is the addition of the music store. Which is again a business based on selling an information product at a better price and under better terms than the competition. The music store is an attempt to monetize Ubuntu in a huge way. It is designed to both generate revenue and to create a demand for Ubuntu. By limiting access to the music store to Ubuntu 10.4 and above he is also making Ubuntu sticky for users. the music store is extremely compelling. The me-menu is another interesting play. Once you get on Ubuntu, the me-menu is designed to make Ubuntu sticky for the user by making Ubuntu the primary way you access you social media. If it catches on it will place Ubuntu in position to monetize access to social media. It will also place Ubuntu in a position to provide value added services through the social media sites that drive more users to Ubuntu. It is my considered opinion that Shuttleworth is planning yet another play with the intention of monetizing Ubuntu while at the same time making it even more sticky. If in the short run he loses 10%, or even 50%, of the current users he does not care. Losing users does not cost him any money. If he can make $1/year from the users that stay Ubuntu will be generating 6 to 12 million dollars a year in revenue and he will have accomplished his goal. My guess is that Shuttleworth is positioning Ubuntu as a one stop solution for companies that want to build the next generation of networked social and entertainment systems. Whether placed in a net book or a phone a software platform that includes a nice way to get music and other media as well as a nice way to access all your social connections and communication the Ubuntu that I see emerging is a killer application. That become especially true if it is prices low enough that these devices can be sold across the entire world and not just in North America and Europe. Shuttleworth has no reason to care if the metaphorical ejector seat button is next to the metaphorical cabin light switch so long as Ubuntu generates revenue. Even if someone hits the wrong button at least no one will actually be ejected. Remember he can move them back any time he wants to. On the other hand my laptop goes to the black screen (which I think I will start calling the Shuttleworth screen) every twenty minutes or so. Firefox doesn't work correctly. blah blah blah... nothing has been done about any of the bug reports I have filed since alpha 3 was released... If this keeps up Ubuntu could lose enough users to actually matter to Shuttleworth. No, I am not saying that I disagree with you. I am saying that Shuttleworth has a plan to make money off of Ubuntu and even if his actions cost him 50% of existing users that does not matter if it actually makes Ubuntu cash flow positive. So, don't expect Ubuntu to see the light any time soon. After it is making money then they will have to worry about making changes that costs them customers. Customers have a monetary value. Users do not. That is the world view that is driving the current changes in Ubuntu. I don't like it. I think that Shuttleworth is very misguided in not putting the buttons back. It would make a lot of people very happy. It would give the illusion that he actually cares what we think. It would makes us all happy and give us a warm fuzzy feeling and we would stick around and generate revenue for Ubuntu. Pissed of users actually have a negative value because they generate negative advertising while not providing revenue. Pissed off users also do not provide free testing and free technical consultation. I don't think he understands
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
My motivation is straightforward: to make Ubuntu the most delightful desktop I possibly can. As, I'm sure is yours. So, we're on the same side, and I appreciate your thoughts and insights. Mark -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark, are you planning on making an effort in adding easy way of changing it, for example an option in the appearance dialog? My memory tells me I've seen this kind of setting before, but was probably a long time ago. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
In Germany the feedback about the new LTS is very very positve. Most of the users, not Alpha- Beta-testers are surrprised about the fast, very fast booting and exited about the new and modern Design. Only a low percent in the forums etc. (~ 2-5%) is worry about the new Design or about the position of the buttons. Lamentations about Bugs and the most Hardware don't work out the box is very low and not the same drama like in Karmic it was. Lucid is well received here. This is my observation. I remember that in the past it was quite horrible to read always, after every new Ubuntu-Release, that the colors (old Brand) is terrible and it's looking old (bad). Now I read sometimes, somewhere that some peoples liked more the old Human-Theme, but it's only a big minority. The mayority is glad about the new look and feel. Thumbs down for the design-team, what I read some posts before, is really not fair. If you look exactly, you will see the sensibility and good ideas they but in it. It's normal that peoples haves different tastes: so some peoples like it flat, glossy, outlined, bright, dark, round, modern, comicstyle ... It's impossible to make them all happy. But in my opinion the design-team did something beautiful and modern. It's the first lap of more and more improvements. I give here a clear thumbs up for the design-team and a big Thank you! A big Thanks to M. Shuttleworth and the whole team. They made all in all a great work. About the buttons: No sinking Titanic here. It isn't a bug, only a decision. At last, but not least: Ubuntu is M.Shuttleworh's Baby. ... thank you for reading. Now I am going to play with my new, fresh installed Lucid Lynx. See you in a new case or new life. :-) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark, are you confirming that the easy switch for these buttons will be available on 10.4? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@avetik 10.04 is already out. There is an easy way to switch described in the bug description. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
It is available. I just did it and it works great. All is back to normal. On Apr 30, 2010 5:21 PM, Avetik Topchyan topch...@yahoo.com wrote: Mark, are you confirming that the easy switch for these buttons will be available on 10.4? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/53263... -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Yes.. you CAN gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string menu:minimize,maximize,close to fix the issue, however, what about all of the themes (not the native ones in Ubuntu 10.04LTS) and various 3rd party applications? Is Mark/Canonical sure that the current button organization, orde, position, does not break UI on any themes and applications not included in 10.04LTS? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
IMHO, that has to be configured through GUI, like other settings, and not a through a terminal command. Why make life harder than it should be?.. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@pyramid themes wont break anything and they never ever will. Its a very simple change. @avetik im sure someone has made a small app that does it but id say there wont be a GUI way made. Its only one small thing just alt+f2 and copy and paste the line in, its not a big deal. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I'm not sure he can know. It seems like they will have to catch up. I don't agree with how it was done but unfortunately it's done. All of the apps I use look ok now that the buttons are back on the right and in the old order. On Apr 30, 2010 6:46 PM, Pyramid Technologies r...@roadie.net wrote: Yes.. you CAN gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string menu:minimize,maximize,close to fix the issue, however, what about all of the themes (not the native ones in Ubuntu 10.04LTS) and various 3rd party applications? Is Mark/Canonical sure that the current button organization, orde, position, does not break UI on any themes and applications not included in 10.04LTS? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a direct s... -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Shane Fagan: I disagree that this is not a big deal. This is about user-friendly vs. difficult. I don't think that your positioning buttons to left corner by default counts as innovation. Not providing users an easy way to use it as they find fit is called making it hard on purpose. From design perspective, it is a big deal. I speak as an end user. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Avetik Topchyan topch...@yahoo.com wrote: @Shane Fagan: I disagree that this is not a big deal. This is about user-friendly vs. difficult. I don't think that your positioning buttons to left corner by default counts as innovation. Not providing users an easy way to use it as they find fit is called making it hard on purpose. From design perspective, it is a big deal. I speak as an end user. The current situation, as has been repeated many times here, is that button layout is specified by individual themes. So, the default button layout, in a gconf sense, is still menu:minimize,maximize,close. The Ambience theme (the default theme) specifies close,maximize,minimize:. Other themes have their buttons on the right. From my perspective, this looks pretty logical and makes considerably more sense than having button layout detached from the selected theme. Do you feel this is insufficient? Were you aware of this? Perhaps something can be done to draw attention to the change. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Dylan, my point is that the right place for this tweak is not in terminal, but through System - Preferences - Appearance. If that would be tweakable from there there wouldn't be an issue. Agree? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On my upgrade from 9.10 I was absolutely aghast to see the new position for the window controls. I have read the justifications on the various blogs and in the bug reports, and the only thing that I can really say is what the were they thinking?!! This is, in my opinion, a very serious miscalculation by the team. I have changed the position back to the right hand side as will, I imaging, nearly everyone who can actually figure out how to do it. I think the designers who have forced this on users have, to put it bluntly, pretty much lost the plot. I cannot believe the community, in general, would like this change. Had I not been able to move them, I would have changed back to 9.10 and stayed there. Thank you so much to ALL who have contributed to a great free OS... but please, no more changes like this one. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mr Pyramid Technologies and others... This is not a personal attack, but many of you have stated that you are leaving ubuntu because og this button-placement. you are welcome to do so, and i am looking forward to not seeing any more post from you in this bug-report. If you are running Debian or an other distro you should put your work-effort there and not here. However you are welcome to stay if you want to continue to use ubuntu... the button-placement is following the theme, so if you change to one of the themes other than radiance and ambience the button-placement is on the right But you know what... just to give you a graphical way to change the buttons il make it for you. edit i HAVE made it for you. take a look at this: http://scripts.linux.dk/joomla/index.php/funktionelle-scripts/buttonplacement.html in short: you can install the buttons program in 2 ways. you can manually download it from http://scripts.linux.dk/buttons and copy it to your bin directory and give the script execution rights, or you can run the installer by running this short command: wget http://scripts.linux.dk/buttons-inst bash buttons-inst and from now on this bug should be closed and no-one needs to commend it. 1: the default button-placement wont be changed, so there is no need to ask for it 2: you have now got a graphical way of changing the buttons-placement -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@soundpartner, firstly, thanks for the script! My hope is that some bright mind would not suddenly decide tomorrow to move these buttons to the bottom of the screen by default. Eureka! what a great innovation would that be! ;) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
If the pilot ejects themselves, that's not a bug,it's a feature. There is unused space next to the switch for which you will be informed sometime in the future of a maybe-feature that might happen. Nevermind planes are crashing everywhere and we had to rebuild it on the day of releasetrivial things such as bug fixes...err more features, do not matter. We need more data. ok..end snarkiness. I downloaded Ubuntu 10.04LTS final and due to (what I consider) some major issues, I won't install it, but did run the live cd. Parts of it are good, nice, etc, but other parts, (Me Menu, button order/position UI-breaking of themes/applkications/muscle memory/etc), not going to install it on a machine until 10.04.2LTS at least. Right now my main box runs Debian. Hopefully some of the insanity in this LTS will be undone. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Dear Mark Shuttleworth, and everyone else thinking it was a good change to place those buttons on the left side of the window. Please go read a book on Interaction Design, for example: About Face 3, ISBN 9780470084113 Now, After you have read that book, explain to me, why you want to have the Ejector Seat Button placed right above the Cockpit Lights Switch. Others, read this blog post to see a short version: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2010/03/the-opposite-of-fitts-law.html -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
scholli, I will quote a part of a post from respected computer journalist: Here's another quick observation - at risk of stirring the pot on the controversy about this change. While working with the RC last night, I realized that I had already pretty much gotten used to the window button location, and it wasn't disturbing me as much as it had been. In addition, I see a small benefit in it because of the way that I normally work with multiple windows, when I Maximize/Restore/Minimize windows, the buttons tend to be more easily accessible, and seem a bit more convenient. That is clearly a question of personal taste and work habits, but my point is simply that this change is not the end of the world as we know it source: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/blogs/jamies-random- musings-10006480/ubuntu-1004-release-candidate-available-10015605/ -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I did updates since Beta1 and I don't have this feature what is shown in the attached screenshot. But now I see that it exists and probably I have to do a fresh install with the final release for get it working finally. But seeing that, everything should be fine now, for everybody!? ** Attachment added: Appearance_Pref.jpg http://launchpadlibrarian.net/45330207/Appearance_Pref.jpg -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Il giorno dom, 25/04/2010 alle 14.04 +, scholli ha scritto: I did updates since Beta1 and I don't have this feature what is shown in the attached screenshot. But now I see that it exists and probably I have to do a fresh install with the final release for get it working finally. But seeing that, everything should be fine now, for everybody!? Probably everybody except that majority perfectly described in comment 735. But then, you can see this bug is closed, so it is fine now by definition. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
instead of revert button, can you simply write right or left handed interface (I suppose in this case the scrollbars are on the left .) for right handed people try using left buttons with a touchscreen -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I say yes... and I see that always more and more peoples are agreed with left. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Only because the majority who say no has already expressed their view and is tired of being ignored. On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:45 +, scholli scholli...@yahoo.de wrote: I say yes... and I see that always more and more peoples are agreed with left. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different... -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
why not leave the buttons where they were and put the new stuff that Mark speaks of on the left instead! -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Because the bdfl pays the bills ;) What mark says goes no matter what. Every single person in the community could say no and if he says yes it happens. I have resigned myself to memorizing the gconf command Everyone that thinks they should stay on the right should do similar. -- Sent from my Palm Pre On Apr 23, 2010 6:50 PM, Tory lt;tory.andrew@gmail.comgt; wrote: why not leave the buttons where they were and put the new stuff that Mark speaks of on the left instead! -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
There should be a button on Customize Theme - Window Border tab (left from the Delete button) for switching buttons position left/right. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Thx Bernhard, this was the case. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Interesting, how often UI changes although already frozen... -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Per explicit request of Mark Shuttleworth: here is data on where my mouse pointer rests: _near the right end of the line I am reading_ . This is where it naturally goes (yeah, sometimes, when I'm tired, I do read with my mouse pointer, like old people read with their finger). This is also where it is the less visually distracting. The left margin in most applications and web pages is too small to fit a pointer. And having it rest in the menus is impossible as well because of highlighting and risk of misclicks. It is also conveniently close to the scrollbars which I do use, and to the Google bar in Firefox. PS: I'm a Debian user, so I would normally not care. Except that this egoistic Canonical decision breaks compatibility across Linux distributions. Given the huge impact of this decision on the desktop experience in the long term, other distros will have no choice but to submit to the Ubuntu way at one point, or to fork Gnome. I resent Canonical making such far-reaching decisions behind closed doors. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
A month late for adding data. How does ubuntu's buttons break Debian? @Martin- How do you get the UI has changed during the freeze when there have been no updates released in more than 48 hours? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I thought that UI freeze was already in the beginning of march - just read, maybe that was not true. Then they shifted the buttons to the left and then changed order again. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Interesting, how often UI changes although already frozen... - Martin Wildham Interesting indeed. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
** Attachment added: Concept of buttons http://launchpadlibrarian.net/44930300/concept_of_buttons.svg -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Using the latest beta(beta 2 and all updates i find installed on sight), the order of the buttons is maximize, minimize, close. I this the order its supposed to be? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Danimoth danimothonl...@gmail.com wrote: Using the latest beta(beta 2 and all updates i find installed on sight), the order of the buttons is maximize, minimize, close. I this the order its supposed to be? Check http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/window-buttons-shift-order- again.html -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I completely understand the need to move the buttons to make space for a new feature, however I do have two objections: * It doesn't make sense to change them before this 'new feature' arrives, especially on a LTS release * It looks bad having the minimize button on the outside edge, we should put the close button on the outside edge (like a Mac) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Josh, the close button was moved to the far right on April 1st. ** Attachment added: Screenshot of button order. http://launchpadlibrarian.net/5712/Screenshot-1.png -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Bob Pendleton - I've been at this since 1978, so I can relate with everything you've said, as I've had similar experiences. I think Mark and company have enough data on what most users would like, for it to be min,max,close on the right-hand side, and clearly this is the majority of end-users. (End-users aren't on here. We're programmers, developers, IT geeks, etc) I'm not going to get into a debate, as I think everyone (including Mark) already knows my stance on this as well as my previous points made. I won't repeat them again here and now. All that being said, I've done my own research and people agree with me for the most part. Some don't care either way, some like it on the left of the window, same goes for not only the button positions, but the order of them as well. It's all over the spectrum, but the vast majority of people I've shown Lucid to vs older versions of Ubuntu, liked it as min, max, close on the right-hand side. Be all of that as it may.. I think the solution is to make it so people can use any theme (so that probably means making 2 different versions of the same theme, one for left-side buttons in close,min,max and one for right-hand side with min,max,close) so that people may easily choose which they would like. This change of the button order and position is not something within the Metacity window manager or within Gnome, but rather within Ubuntu itself. Perhaps these 2 different GTK themes will give other people who use Debian and other distros the option as well, which may be a bonus of this now-only-Ubuntu-specific deal. I think this is where the focus needs to be at right now. As for whatever unverified features that will be in Ubuntu 10.10, that too will need to be movable. So to reiterate, I think the keep here is flexibility. This should fit right in-line with the core modular basis of Linux as a whole anyway. Aside from all of the technical aspects of this, it is certainly a social experiment gone wild. Interesting, to say the least. PS: To anyone who has gone 'round and 'round with me in the past on thus bug, please... just don't. Save it. Save everyone the hassle. This post isn't about any of that. It's about contributing positive data. Nothing else. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Pyramid Technologies, I can agree with you on liking to see the buttons be easily movable. I have moved them back and forth and changing their order and it appears they have fixed the chopped look that once was an issue after moving them. It would be nice to see a button switcher that works with the new themes placed within the Appearance applet. With this in place the buttons could be moved from left to right easily. The next problem is people disagreeing with the order of the buttons, some seem to like the close button on the right of the other two while all are on the left, though I prefer the order they are in now. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
** Description changed: === Master Bug === (As per the design team's request) All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug. All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a one. === Desire === Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close). Workaround 1. Only new themes, such as Ambiance and Radiance will have buttons on the left by default. You can continue using old themes, such as Human, in Lucid and those themes will continue to have buttons on the right side (according to http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/577 ). It is even possible to switch to Human theme and then 'Customize' it to use all the elements from Radiance theme, but the button layout will stay on the right. 2. To revert to old layout, run in a terminal: $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string menu:minimize,maximize,close + + Return to defaults + If you would like to return to the system/theme default then run: + $ gconftool-2 --unset /apps/metacity/general/button_layout Responses Canonical Design Team Leader (Ivanka Majic) - 2010-03-10 and 2010-03-17 http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 (Those pesky buttons) http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute interview starting at 39:10) Ubuntu SABDFL (Mark Shuttleworth) replies on this bug report - 2010-03-15 onwards http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/110 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/167 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/179 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/202 to 204 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/218 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/248 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/272 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/388 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/410 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/426 to 427 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/469 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/503 http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/564 (Final decree; close-min-max ordering) Canonical Ubuntu Community Leader (Jono Bacon) response - 2010-03-24 http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5683123 (6 minutes starting at 26:24) === Code of Conduct === To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ . -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Scholli: editing a system data file is _not_ a ideal solution, because
it changes will get overwritten any time that a new version of the
package ('light-themes') is supplied. Instead; supply a local setting
as detailed at the top of this bug report:
gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string
close,minimize,maximize:menu(your preferred example)
Alternatively, if yourself, or another user has tweaked the setting (for
instance during this beta episode) then run the following to cleanly return it
to whatever defaults are in place:
gconftool-2 --unset /apps/metacity/general/button_layout
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Paul: Thanks for pointing that out and editing the description - It is already a huge amount of reading work to go through all the comments. In the morning under the shower I thought again of my proposal for displaying the buttons just on hovering over the title bar. The only disadvantage of displaying the buttons only when hovering over the title bar is that it could be irritating that buttons might not show up exactly on the expected position. Why: Let's say they are always displayed left from the mouse cursor position, then if you go to the upper left of the window and there is not enough place left the buttons have to show up on the right side. Knowing that I wouldn't go to the very top left, but anyway - wanted to mention that. Other solution could be to show the buttons in a dropdown-style menu instead. Advantage: If you want to add more entries over time there is enough free space most of the time (not considering really mini confirmation dialog boxes). But going up and then down (in the menu) again means additional mouse miles. :-( Thinking of all the possible options I also want to mention that there is already a title context menu where a lot of stuff is that I often use. BTW: I use the feature to move a window to a particular desktop more often than I use the minimize button. However, the longer I think of it the more I get to the conclusion that minimize, maximize and close are the essential operations that deserve buttons even although only minimize is really required, because menu button on the left is the same as clicking with the right mouse button anywhere on the title, maximize is double-click and close is clicking the middle (mousewheel) button. BTW: I have listened to the interview with Ivanka already and today also the answer from Jono Bacon who mentions that they are wanting to use the right top of the Window to place something else in the future. Whatever it is, it could perfectly also go to the left, I would say. One another thing: Putting too many buttons on the window title bar maybe will reduce the space too much for the title. I would put spicy new things to the context menu as they can't be really essential. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ Paul Sladen: Thank you for your professional correction. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Why don't we use both styles(left and right)? Example: - moving mouse to the right corner = buttons switch from default position(e.g. left) to the right side with the order: minimize,maximize,close - moving mouse to the left corner = buttons stay in default position(e.g. left): close,minimize,maximize Pro: - both groups satisfied - we still have our change Contra: - don't know :D PS: Sorry for my bad english ;) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@bt90: This is a really GREAT IDEA! - And the coolness factor could be also given by displaying no buttons at all and only when you get near to the title bar (let's say about twice the height of the title bar) they are displayed left or right depending on which corner is nearer to your mouse. Another advantage: The full title bar can be used to display the window title. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ bt90: No I think it isn't a good idea. At moment it would be cool, but if the new feature (10.10) will be included we have a problem... you can't reach the new feature-stuff. ,) A button or a ratio-button for change the side is easier to realize and would be a solution for everybody. For me it's perfect how it is now, but I can't think only what I like... -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Why not just choose one of the following two solutions: 1) Add a radio button in gnome-appearance-properties (ad said by scholli) with the following options: Window button placement: - use theme default - always on the left - always on the right I one of the latter two options is chosen then the theme default will be overridden by the user's choice. 2) Ship two other themes, ambiance-right and radiance-right whose only difference is the button placement. Only a single text file (index.theme) needs to be added. That will keep everybody happy. (I know it is possible to customize a theme but that solution might not be obvious to new users, as simply choosing a theme). -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
