[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
I want to say a big THANK YOU to all who have made this possible. I feel great knowing my contribution helped out. -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/57379 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
We now ship wubi which solves this. ** Changed in: ubuntu Status: Confirmed = Fix Released -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/57379 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
Has UNetbootin http://lubi.sourceforge.net/unetbootin.html been considered for accomplishing this (basically similar to instlux, only it's better maintained and supports more distros, including the latest Ubuntu, which instlux does not, as well as Vista support and installation via .deb or .rpm packages)? For something like this (as well as the no-CD-installation issue) something like Wubi seems like overkill in terms of complexity; not to mention that users don't necessarily want to install to a file in their NTFS partition (especially now that Vista can resize its own partitions, basically eliminating the partitioning issue which was the very reasoning for using loopmounted filesystems); and maintaining loop- mounting patches for each release of Ubuntu seems much more difficult than simply re-using the unmodified netboot initrds in UNetbootin builds (not to mention yet-to-be-discovered support issues if the loopmounted- filesystem approach becomes a more common installation medium). Of course, UNetbootin isn't perfect either; perhaps adding a nice GUI to the netboot installer interface, by adding a gtk-fb interface to d-i, like in Debian Etch, or including an Ubiquity interface in the netboot and ftp-install builds will make it more appealing to new users unfamiliar with the CLI . Also, perhaps switching to a pre-download-packages and pre-partition- disks via Vista's partition manager approach, thus allowing for a faster and more reliable hd-media style install (albeit this approach would work only on Vista and newer since only they can resize their own partitions while running, though the netboot version can be used as a fallback on older Windows versions), would be a more sound solution, since it allows for a proper, not loopmounted, installation, while still not introducing the risks of manual repartitioning (since resizing can be automated via Vista's built-in drive-management utilities), and still not requiring a CD (like CD-chainloading via SBM or GRLDR) or on-the-go downloading of packages like in UNetbootin, instlux, and debian- w32loader -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/57379 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
After looking at Wubi, I think my idea is a bit cleaner. I say this because when you use Wubi, the Ubuntu living inside a file in NTFS will in time loose performance as it falls prey to that NTFS partition becoming more fragmented. Having said that, Wubi would probably be an easier solution to implement (than SBM), since Wubi already has simple and gorgeous GUI. My idea to use SBM would take more effort because it would require the creation of a nice-looking GUI. SBM already seems to have a DOS-based installer for Windows (which might be a possible starting point in the implementation of my idea): http://btmgr.sourceforge.net/3.7/sbminst.exe -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/57379 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
2007/5/6, DustinHarriman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Henrik, Glad to hear you're on the case, and there is momentum behind this issue. I too am glad. The project is already approved in Launchpad, and at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_(Linux_distribution)#_ref-0 it says There are currently plans to officially include Wubi or a similar tool in Ubuntu 7.10 Gutsy Gibbon.[3][4] It's excellent! I have another possibility for you to add to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerForWindows Smart Boot Manager http://btmgr.sourceforge.net/about.html Summary: Smart Boot Manager (SBM) is an OS independent and full-featured boot manager with an easy-to-use user interface. SBM now supports booting from CD-ROM. It's GPL'ed too! Perhaps SBM could be installable from the menu that pops up when you insert the Ubuntu CD while in Windows. SBM could be installed to the MBR allowing the default booting to CD (and optionally Windows, just in case). After SBM is installed to the MBR, then ask the user to simply reboot with the Ubuntu CD still in the drive. Then SBM could be used (from the MBR) to chainload boot to their Ubuntu CD, **thereby bypassing the need to change the BIOS settings**. The Ubuntu install process would then overwrite SBM in the MBR as it installs grub. Which is fine, as the purpose of installing Ubuntu is served. Note: Future booting from CD (say, to use a rescue CD later on) could still be made possible in this convenient fashion by the Ubuntu install process making a grub menu entry to boot SBM not from the MBR, but from the root filesystem of Ubuntu, much like memtest86 is done. Here is info on how to do that: GRUB/Chainloaded CD-ROM http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Chainloading_a_bootable_CD-ROM_from_GRUB Hmm, it sounds like you want to allow the Ubuntu liveCD's Windows portion to install SBM so that users can boot from CD without changing the boot order in their BIOS. Interesting idea. Dustin, I will forward your message to the ubuntu-devel list right now. -- Jason Spiro: Linux consultant, web developer, Windows corporate trainer. No job too big or too small, whether two hours or two months. Contact me for info; to see my resume, send email with subject line resume. +1 (416) 781-5938 / Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/57379 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
Hello Henrik, Glad to hear you're on the case, and there is momentum behind this issue. I have another possibility for you to add to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerForWindows Smart Boot Manager http://btmgr.sourceforge.net/about.html Summary: Smart Boot Manager (SBM) is an OS independent and full-featured boot manager with an easy-to-use user interface. SBM now supports booting from CD-ROM. It's GPL'ed too! Perhaps SBM could be installable from the menu that pops up when you insert the Ubuntu CD while in Windows. SBM could be installed to the MBR allowing the default booting to CD (and optionally Windows, just in case). After SBM is installed to the MBR, then ask the user to simply reboot with the Ubuntu CD still in the drive. Then SBM could be used (from the MBR) to chainload boot to their Ubuntu CD, **thereby bypassing the need to change the BIOS settings**. The Ubuntu install process would then overwrite SBM in the MBR as it installs grub. Which is fine, as the purpose of installing Ubuntu is served. Note: Future booting from CD (say, to use a rescue CD later on) could still be made possible in this convenient fashion by the Ubuntu install process making a grub menu entry to boot SBM not from the MBR, but from the root filesystem of Ubuntu, much like memtest86 is done. Here is info on how to do that: GRUB/Chainloaded CD-ROM http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Chainloading_a_bootable_CD-ROM_from_GRUB Cheers, Dustin. On 4/26/07, Henrik Nilsen Omma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Assigning this to myself. I've charted the main options and written a summary here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerForWindows We'll discuss this at UDS. Cheers, Dustin Harriman My Blog: http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/dustinharriman RSS Feed: http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/rss-RkGSoVA1brWtXrVH9Gr5CzgVujwwGg--?cq=1 Freedom is not the capacity to do whatever we please; freedom is the capacity to make intelligent choices -Francis Moore Lappé -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/57379 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
Assigning this to myself. I've charted the main options and written a summary here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerForWindows We'll discuss this at UDS. ** Changed in: Ubuntu Assignee: (unassigned) = Henrik Nilsen Omma Target: None = ubuntu-7.10 -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/57379 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
** Also affects: Baltix Importance: Undecided Status: Unconfirmed -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
Fair enough. I give you guys big kudos for respecting the Windows install (that a new Ubuntu install would either live alongside or wipe out). It is interesting to note that Microsoft **does not** pay that same courtesy back to Ubuntu. Witness what happens when you have a system with Ubuntu only installed, then you install Windows. In this situation, Windows by default wants to wipe out Ubuntu, not clearly explaining the meaning or implications of this. And Windows will surely wipe out GRUB such that Windows will boot ONLY, no choice is given like GRUB provides to also boot to Ubuntu. I salute your maturity and respect you show towards your competition, namely Microsoft. Cheers, Dustin. On 3/7/07, Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 05:26:41PM -, Dustin wrote: I also am curious: could any of the multiple solutions be complimentary to each other? Like could more than one solution be used? Rather than spending lots of time and effort reaching a consensus on picking one solution, why not just go ahead with the first and easiest one, and if a better solution comes later, maybe it can also be used (if it is complimentary)? It is well worth the investment in thinking through the problem before deploying a solution. The availability of a proof of concept implementation of one idea is useful and we will look at it, but it would not be wise to rush a new feature in, especially one which modifies the boot process of an installed Windows system. Anything we do in this respect must be carefully considered and thoroughly tested before being released. We're well into feature freeze for Ubuntu 7.04 (the beta release is just a few weeks away now), and we plan to discuss this topic at the Developer Summit in early May, after the release. More roads leading to Ubuntu is a good thing, IMHO, plus I also feel Ubuntu needs to act fast to compete with Vista. This is good reason to be creative, but not to be reckless. -- - mdz -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- Dustin Harriman My Blog: http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/dustinharriman RSS Feed: http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/rss-RkGSoVA1brWtXrVH9Gr5CzgVujwwGg--?cq=1 Freedom is not the capacity to do whatever we please; freedom is the capacity to make intelligent choices -Francis Moore Lappé -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
2007/3/6, Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please do not assign bugs to others without their request I apologize. in particular, this is an idea with several possible solutions which are being considered I am curious: what are some of the other solutions you're considering? -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
I also am curious: could any of the multiple solutions be complimentary to each other? Like could more than one solution be used? Rather than spending lots of time and effort reaching a consensus on picking one solution, why not just go ahead with the first and easiest one, and if a better solution comes later, maybe it can also be used (if it is complimentary)? More roads leading to Ubuntu is a good thing, IMHO, plus I also feel Ubuntu needs to act fast to compete with Vista. Right as you read this, many tens of millions of computer users are wondering what they are going to do about their Windows 2000 boxen not being officially supported by Microsoft anymore (now that Vista is out, and Windows 2000 reaches its end-of-life), so now is the perfect time for Ubuntu to swoop in with a super-easy alternative solution to buying Vista, ie. an Ubuntu which is very, very easy to install because a novice user needn't care what a BIOS is whatsoever, much less configure it. This feature alone could gain many millions of new Ubuntu users! Think about it. Cheers, Dustin. On 3/6/07, Jason Spiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2007/3/6, Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please do not assign bugs to others without their request I apologize. in particular, this is an idea with several possible solutions which are being considered I am curious: what are some of the other solutions you're considering? -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- Dustin Harriman My Blog: http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/dustinharriman RSS Feed: http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/rss-RkGSoVA1brWtXrVH9Gr5CzgVujwwGg--?cq=1 Freedom is not the capacity to do whatever we please; freedom is the capacity to make intelligent choices -Francis Moore Lappé -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 05:26:41PM -, Dustin wrote: I also am curious: could any of the multiple solutions be complimentary to each other? Like could more than one solution be used? Rather than spending lots of time and effort reaching a consensus on picking one solution, why not just go ahead with the first and easiest one, and if a better solution comes later, maybe it can also be used (if it is complimentary)? It is well worth the investment in thinking through the problem before deploying a solution. The availability of a proof of concept implementation of one idea is useful and we will look at it, but it would not be wise to rush a new feature in, especially one which modifies the boot process of an installed Windows system. Anything we do in this respect must be carefully considered and thoroughly tested before being released. We're well into feature freeze for Ubuntu 7.04 (the beta release is just a few weeks away now), and we plan to discuss this topic at the Developer Summit in early May, after the release. More roads leading to Ubuntu is a good thing, IMHO, plus I also feel Ubuntu needs to act fast to compete with Vista. This is good reason to be creative, but not to be reckless. -- - mdz -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
Please do not assign bugs to others without their request; in particular, this is an idea with several possible solutions which are being considered, and further discussion and experimentation is necessary before deciding on the feasibility of such a project and creating and implementation plan. ** Changed in: Ubuntu Assignee: Ubuntu CD Image Team = (unassigned) -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
I am taking the liberty of reassigning this to ubuntu-cdimage, since they are the ones who can take care of this if they so choose. ** Changed in: Ubuntu Assignee: (unassigned) = Ubuntu CD Image Team -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
Looking into this is on the agenda for our developer summit in Seville in May. At this point (not being somebody who knows much about Windows) I don't want to just slap something in without discussion. From a quick glance, instlux looks like a reasonable solution; there's also win32-loader in the debian-installer Subversion repository that takes a similar approach. I haven't yet looked into the differences between them. -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
** Summary changed: - end users should not have to know how to set BIOS to boot from CD in order to install Ubuntu + end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu ** Description changed: Virtually all PCs now come from the factory having default BIOS settings to NOT boot from CD before hard drive (which is super-annoying). So if a user boots their machine with an Ubuntu CD in the drive, the CD will not boot (until they go into their BIOS to change the boot order). Consider the implications of these unfortunate-for-Ubuntu circumstances: -The special key (eg. F1, delete, etc.) one needs to press to enter the BIOS is usually only shown when you tap Escape right at boot time. And you're not invited to press Escape. You just magically need to know to press it. Therefore the BIOS is effectively completely hidden from most users. This makes it really tough for novice users to learn about the existence of the BIOS, much less get inside it. -Most users have no idea what a BIOS is or how to access it. And they DO NOT want to learn. It is too nebulous, technical, risky, and uninteresting. -Of those who vaguely do know what a BIOS is, most are intimidated by the BIOS and don't want to go in there whatsoever. -And even if users are brave enough to go into the BIOS, it's impossible to give specific, procedural instructions in the Ubuntu documentation as to how to modify the boot order, since all BIOS's have different menus and controls. All you can do is vaguely suggest search for a menu called something like Boot Order, and hope for the best (ie. that the user doesn't give up on Ubuntu) So the BIOS presents a considerable technical roadblock to installing Ubuntu for your average novice user (who is probably installing an Operating System of any kind for the first time). In fact, the BIOS is probably the single most technically complex part of the average Ubuntu install (by far), since the BIOS is such an ugly, text-based, poorly- documented hell hole. Therefore it must be smoothed over at all costs! No novice user should have to go in there. Instlux can do this smoothing over. It's a Windows program that kicks off an Ubuntu install right from within Windows very easily, without the need to change the BIOS. The Ubuntu install CD must include instlux in the DiscTree menu (that automatically launches when an Ubuntu CD is loaded while running within - windows). This will greatly help all Windows-using users to more easily + windows). This will greatly help all Windows users to more easily install Ubuntu. Instlux is available here, and has an LGPL license: http://instlux.sourceforge.net/ I think it's a no-brainer to include instlux on Ubuntu CD's, because it considerably simplifies the Ubuntu install process for novice computer users, who may give up on Ubuntu the second things get technically complex. -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 57379] Re: end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu
Thank you for your suggestion Dustin. I am sure someone from the packaging/cd-image team will look into this possibility. ** Changed in: Ubuntu Importance: Untriaged = Wishlist Status: Unconfirmed = Confirmed -- end users should not have to access BIOS whatsoever to install Ubuntu https://launchpad.net/bugs/57379 -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
