Re: [Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Noah Slater]

On 20/10/2007, Bruce Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is no Iceweasel package in Ubuntu, but there should be for
> gobuntu.

I realise this - how about creating one? What's the harm in having two
packages available to all Ubuntu users.

Just because I run Ubuntu and not Gobuntu doesn't mean I have to hate
freedom and install a non-free version of Firefox. I want the same
options as everyone else.

That's the whole point of this GNU/Linux thing, right?

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Bruce Cowan]

There is no Iceweasel package in Ubuntu, but there should be for
gobuntu.

Is Gobuntu officially supported? If so, there should be a Iceweasel
package.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Bruce Cowan]

There is no Iceweasel package in Ubuntu, but there should be for
gobuntu.

Is Gobuntu officially supported? If so, there should be a Iceweasel
package.

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Re: [Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Noah Slater]

How about Ubuntu provides a non-free Firefox package AND a free
IceWeasle package?

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Manuel Gomez]

Due to the request from another mailing list, here I post the list of
files that are giving all this trouble:
http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/other-licenses/branding/firefox/

Those files are no released in an free software-compatible licence, and
as they are needed so we can continue to call Firefox, Mozilla Firefox,
the minimum we should do is remove Firefox from the default install of
Gobuntu, either replacing it with IceWeasel or with Epiphany.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Mekaniserad Apelsin]

I admit knowing hard to nothing about this, but why not move firefox to
restricted (where it belongs) and use epiphany-browser in gobuntu?

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Bruce Cowan]

I filed a bug about this just after the "deal" - Bug #68008, but it was
closed within a few hours. I suppose I amn't Mark Pilgrim.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Benjamin A'Lee]

Also note that fair use doesn't apply everywhere, and IIRC, the UK
equivalent (fair dealing) is usually considered not to apply to
software. It certainly doesn't apply to trademark law, so Mozilla could
perfectly reasonably disallow the use of their trademarks with
unofficial builds of Firefox.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Benjamin A'Lee]

Danny Ayers: presumably it's not possible to just replace the images for
the same reason as Debian couldn't; as I understand it, the Mozilla
trademark policy says you can't call it Mozilla Firefox if you don't use
the Mozilla artwork, or something along those lines.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Danny Ayers]

Could someone please explain why patching this bug isn't an option? i.e.
swap out the troublesome icons and replace them with versions that
explicitly allow unrestricted reuse. Hardly a radical fork. Ok, someone
with time and design skills will be needed, and it'd probably reopen
#68180 for a bit, but that seems fairly trivial in comparison.

Naturally IANAL, but if a product is 99.9% open source, and the
remaining 0.1% serves to identify the product proper, then to me it
seems fair use to include that branding wherever the rest of the product
is packaged as a whole. But even if fair use might apply, inclusion of
the images in Gobuntu stills seems inappropriate - there's nothing that
counters the substantive point in Mark's http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/10/18/gobuntu-has-already-
failed">Gobuntu Sucks post.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Loïc Minier]

Is there an upstream bug tracking this issue?

Should we keep this bug open instead of incomplete?

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Re: [Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 04:13:00PM -, Lenny Domnitser wrote:
> First of all, the copyright license of the MySQL logos is GPL; Firefox's
> logos are "all rights reserved". Before trademark enters the picture,
> Firefox's logos already cannot be redistributed because of their
> copyright.

Nearly all of the software in Ubuntu has such a copyright; the important bit
is that it also has a license which grants rights to others as well.

As I've said already, we've contacted Mozilla to clarify the situation and
will proceed from there.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Lenny Domnitser]

First of all, the copyright license of the MySQL logos is GPL; Firefox's
logos are "all rights reserved". Before trademark enters the picture,
Firefox's logos already cannot be redistributed because of their
copyright.

As for MySQL's trademark policy, read the first section (1A). It's not
too hard to parse.

"""The "Conditional Use" Logos may be used without specific written
permission from MySQL AB under the following conditions: ... If used in
an application released under the GPL license, the application must be
able to connect directly to a MySQL server"""

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[RobertSayre]

"Robert: mysql-query-browser may be copied from Ubuntu and
redistributed. "

Lenny, you must have a hard time parsing the part about the logos. You
can copy and redistribute the source code of mysql-query-browser, but
not the logo (which is included in the package). The terms are extremely
clear, don't you think?

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Re: [Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Noah Slater]

Matt, I must have missed you comment amongst the flood.

I have now removed the item from the agenda.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Matt Zimmerman]

I plan to be present at the next meeting, but I'm not sure what answer
you expect beyond the one I already gave in
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/83118/comments/19

We have already put this question to our contacts at Mozilla and are
awaiting an authoritative reply.

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Re: [Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Noah Slater]

Alexander, what is needed to be clarified?

Alexander/Mark/Whoever will you be present at the Technical Board
meeting to discuss this issue further?

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Lenny Domnitser]

Robert: mysql-query-browser may be copied from Ubuntu and redistributed.
Ubuntu's firefox package may not be redistributed unless the copyrighted
artwork is removed.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Alexander Sack]

The general line on this should be clear now. Taking this for now., as
there are still things we need to clarify upstream.

** Changed in: firefox (Ubuntu)
 Assignee: (unassigned) => Alexander Sack
   Status: Unconfirmed => Needs Info

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[RobertSayre]

> Rob, isn't there the distinct possibility that mysql is not correctly
in main either? Or am I missing something?

Oh, sure. But it doesn't make such a great publicity stunt. Anyway,
downstream authors have all the freedom in the world to modify the
package. Of course, open source licenses apply to source code, and it's
silly to be manipulated by people who are unable to answer simple
questions on the matter. They're more interested in moving the "overton
window" and other tedious behavior we expect from politicians. Hey guess
what, free software has nothing to do with copyrighted logos or
trademarks.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Matt Zimmerman]

This issue is in fact specific to the Firefox package, and should remain
filed there, both for reference and to implicitly include the bug
contacts for that package.

Our general policy is that redistribution rights for such material
should extend to derivatives.  My understanding from previous
discussions is that this should be the case, but we will confirm with
Mozilla whether this is properly documented.

** Changed in: Ubuntu
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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

: "All application software
included in the Ubuntu main component ... Must allow modification and
distribution of modified copies under the same licence. Just having the
source code does not convey the same freedom as having the right to
change it."

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Luis Villa]

IANAL either, of course, even though I play one in class from time to
time; since my name has been invoked I'll stick my head in.

Some questions/comments:

* is there a clear definition of what the requirements are for being in
'main'? I can't find one. Mark Pilgrim's argument assumes that for a
package to be in main requires that all copyrighted content in the
package must be DFSG Free. I can't actually find a definition of main,
so I have no idea if this is actually true or not. (Depending on the
answer here, one option could be that Ubuntu free-ness is redefined to
mean 'DFSG free, except that trademark restrictions are allowed.')

* Rob, isn't there the distinct possibility that mysql is not correctly
in main either? Or am I missing something?

* Mark missed another potential option- that firefox, without
icons/trademarked strings, be distributed in main, and that a separate
package containing trademarked icons/strings be distributed in
restricted. This is effectively what Red Hat does with their trademarked
RHEL and Fedora icons, I believe.

Anyway, it seems like without a little more information on those first
two questions, this bug is a little muddied.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Mark Pilgrim]

Robert, since you're not interested in the opinions of non-lawyers, and
since I am not a lawyer, it stands to reason that you would not be
interested in any examples I might offer.

Presumably Canonical employs lawyers who can advise them that "All
Rights Reserved" means "All Rights Reserved", and that copyrighted
images do not somehow become *more* free when they are trademarked.

This bug is about the Ubuntu Firefox package.  If you have issues with
other packages, I suggest you file a separate bug and make your case.
I've made mine.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[RobertSayre]

I should repeat my question. Is there something you can do with MySQL
Query Browser that you can't do with Firefox? Just looking for a
concrete example.

I'm not interested in non-lawyers holding forth on copyright and
trademark law.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Mark Pilgrim]

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=354622;msg=39

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[RobertSayre]

"The GPL does not provide any license or right to use any MySQL AB Mark
in any form or media" seems pretty clear to me, so I'm not sure what
Mark Pilgrim is on about.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Freddy Martinez]

Bug triagers, please do *not* mark this as a bug against Firefox. Ubuntu
decides the trademark policy.

** Changed in: firefox (Ubuntu)
Sourcepackagename: firefox => None

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Mark Pilgrim]

James, you're overthinking the problem.  I'm sure trademark law is very
interesting, and its intersection with open source is a fascinating
topic for someone's PhD thesis, but it is not the topic at hand.  The
difference between mysql-query-browser and firefox is very, very simple:
MySQL's icons are released under the GPL, and Firefox's icons are
Copyright (c) 2004-2006 The Mozilla Foundation, All Rights Reserved.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Thomas Hotz]

** Changed in: Ubuntu
Sourcepackagename: None => firefox

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[James Andrewartha]

Robert: There are plenty of other trademark policies for GPL software
out there http://lwn.net/Articles/216049/ however most of the trademarks
are not aggressively enforced. A notable exception is Red Hat - RHEL is
GPLed, but Red Hat is a trademark, so people who exercise their GPL
rights have to rename the result http://www.redhat.com/f/pdf/corp/RH-
3573_284204_TM_Gd.pdf so we end up with CentOS.

A strict reading of many of the other policies would result in mass
renaming of many packages, but (IANAL) trademarks are controlled by
actual enforcement actions, not policies, so in practice this doesn't
happen.

So there's lots of trademark policies out there, and trademark law is
not incompatible with Free Software, but the actual enforcement varies a
lot and there's not currently a standard trademark policy that allows
use by the free software community but retains the right to smack down
bad people (eg distributors of firefox with viruses).
http://tieguy.org/blog/2005/09/16/fri-16-sep-2005/
http://tieguy.org/blog/index.php?s=trademark&paged=2 and we can but hope
Luis will write the one true GPTML once he finishes his degree.

Back to the point, the difference between mysql-query-browser and
firefox is that MySQL AB doesn't aggressively enforce its trademarks
against distributions who ship versions of MySQL software. IANAL, but
the lack of enforcement gives tacit approval of this use of the MySQL
trademark by distributions, despite it not being permitted by the MySQL
trademark policy.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[John Vivirito]

This need the attention of ubuntu devel not mozillateam.

** Changed in: firefox (Ubuntu)
Sourcepackagename: firefox => None

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Kees Cook]

** Changed in: Ubuntu
Sourcepackagename: None => firefox

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[RobertSayre]

Thanks Noah. I was curious about the MySQL case specifically. It looks
like their policy curtails the freedom to redistribute (with artwork) as
well. So, is there something you can do with MySQL Query Browser that
you can't do with Firefox? Just looking for a concrete example.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Noah Slater]

I can see your argument Mark, though it is gravely disappointing to see
Ubuntu slip further into the non-free by default camp.

Robert, it curtails the freedom to redistribute [1][2][3] - one of the
core freedoms of the free software movement[4].

[1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=354622
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/02/msg01876.html
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/01/msg00010.html

[2] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[RobertSayre]

What freedoms do the Firefox terms curtail, in comparison to other free
packages? For example, MySQL Query Browser icons are subject to MySQL's
trademark policy, which restricts rights in several ways.

http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/trademark.html

Of particular interest is section 4c:

C. Trademarks and the GPL License.

The GNU General Public License (the "GPL") is one of the ways by which
MySQL AB distributes the MySQL server. The GPL permits third parties to
use and redistribute the underlying software under certain
circumstances. Such use and/or redistribution of MySQL AB software
products are much welcomed by MySQL AB, but should be distinguished from
the use of the MySQL Marks. The GPL does not provide any license or
right to use any MySQL AB Mark in any form or media. Thus, although
a GPL licensee may redistribute the underlying software, a GPL licensee
may not use any MySQL AB Mark in doing so without the express prior
written permission of MySQL AB. Otherwise, users could be misled into
thinking that revisions made by a GPL licensee were created or endorsed
by MySQL AB, or that those revisions met the quality control standards
of MySQL AB.

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Mark Pilgrim]

Some people may be surprised to learn that I disagree with Noah on this
one.  I think following Debian's lead would be too disruptive in three
ways:

1. Disruptive to end users, who wouldn't understand why their browser
was renamed out from under them

2. Disruptive to Canonical, who would be forced to deal with the
increased support costs arising from #1

3. Disruptive to Canonical's relationship with Mozilla, the importance
of which should not be underestimated

Furthermore, Mark Shuttleworth has already publicly stated that
Canonical will continue shipping Mozilla-approved Firefox packages (
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/79 ), so that narrows the
options considerably.  Given that a Mozilla-approved package will
necessarily contain non-free components, and given that Canonical plans
to continue shipping and officially supporting this package, that
narrows it down to precisely one solution.  Canonical already has a
repository for supported non-free packages; it's called "restricted."

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Noah Slater]

I think this should be discussed at the next Technical Board meeting.  I
have added to the agenda:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda

The most sensible option IMHO is to follow Debian's lead and rename it
to IceWeasel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IceWeasel

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Noah Slater]

A quick search on Google cannot find the discussion you mention [1].

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=firefox+site:https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives
/ubuntu-devel-discuss/

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Noah Slater]

Do you have a link to an official statement regarding this as issue as
regardless of opinion it is indeed a bug.

There is one more option not previously considered:

 5. Redefine the "main" repository as "mostly un-free software" or
perhaps "a little big pregnant"... [1]

[1] http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/11/06/gnewsense

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[Alex Latchford]

I believe this was discussed in depth by the development teams, after
the whole Iceweasel thing with Debian, if Firefox is in Ubuntu now the
way it is then I am sure it is intentional that they are doing so with
respect to the license. If you wish to restart this discussion then I
believe the Ubuntu-devel-discuss list [1] would be an appropriate place
for it, (also I believe this is where the original discussion was also),
I am not really too sure what to recommend other than this.

Thanks, Alex.

[1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss

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[Bug 83118] Re: Some components are non-free

[John Vivirito]

** Changed in: firefox (Ubuntu)
Sourcepackagename: firefox => None

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