Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
OK Leandro, I just sent an email to Ayatana list with your mockup and presenting the argument on the possible security flaw. Let us see how it goes. However, I would not be very hopeful, it seems like people in Canonical are convinced that the new behavior is good. best, Paulo On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Leandro leandromartine...@gmail.com wrote: This is what I can do in one minute, and I'm no hacker or webdesigner: http://www.ime.unicamp.br/~martinez/leandro/test1.html Click on the click here and then click anywhere on the image. I myself got confused while doing this because the first image is totally realistic on my system and I had the update manager and the site opened at the same time. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 13:13 +, Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: OK Leandro, I just sent an email to Ayatana list with your mockup and presenting the argument on the possible security flaw. Let us see how it goes. However, I would not be very hopeful, it seems like people in Canonical are convinced that the new behavior is good. People can get emotionally attached to an expended time and effort (with the alternative being to throw the result away and feel like your time has been wasted) and start to put up blinders to the real issues. This is similar to the phenomenon that allows projects to run 10-fold over time and budget. At every progress report on the overage, the team is convinced that they only need [insert small amount here] more to complete the project. Then, the more management invests in a project the more likely they are going to continue to throw good money after bad to finally see it through rather than cutting bait early on in the disaster. After-all, who wants to say we blew and have nothing to show for it rather than continuing the fantasy of eventually having something, even though it cost you 10 or 20x your original budget. Hopefully this is not what is happening here. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 08:11 +, Lionel Dricot wrote: Graeme the number of duplicates speaks for itself. But it seems that, for some reason, no usability is involved in this bug What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? [not to troll , Just curious.] Isnt it because the users were instructed to depend on the icon only? If they were told to update when the update-manager window opens wouldnt this have been solved? (the current behaviour is against nearly *every* usability rule ). As in? I assume (and I hope) that this more-important-than-usability reason worth it and I'm not a huge fan of this change , but it has its merits. I would like more communication from the people responsible of this behaviour. mpt has explained this change plenty of times on this bug report. you can see the number of comments he has made , kindly read them. Not sure how much more it can be explained. OTOH , the update manager window ,as well, is going to be improved for Lucid. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Disabling the updater daemon is now part of my installation routine for newbies. (well, I'm still looking for someone that will find that useful so I do it only when they tell me they have a bug with a window appearing all the time). Why disable it? Just use gconf and recover the old (and good) behavior. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
mac_v wrote: What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? On all computers I've installed Karmic (and Jaunty before) the update-manager windows opens in the background (either in minimized mode, or behind other windows, or on the wrong desktop). Since Linux users aren't used to closing one program before opening another (and I believe Windows users don't really have to do that any more in recent Windows versions), the user never knows there are updates available, because they always have at least one other application on top. Opening the update-manager window on top of all other windows is not good either, since it disrupts the user's workflow (which would end up with the window being closed by the user). I believe the developer(s) that advocated the new behavior have a different workflow, and thus doesn't have any problems with it. On the other hand, when the new behavior was still in discussion, they promised us that they would study the ratio of people updating regularly, compare with the previous ratios, and revert if it proved unsuccessful. I still haven't seen those numbers elsewhere, and up now we can only get anecdotal evidence that it doesn't work. Eventually, it all depends if you find it important or not that Ubuntu users install security updates or not, and if you don't there's no way any more comments on this bug report are going to make you admit it if you were wrong (especially if, at an individual level, you prefer the new behavior for whatever reasons). -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
As a personal sidenote, I want to add that, during the early discussion, I was not opposed to the idea. I had a lot of doubt but it has to be tried. I was kind of agnostic so let's try and see. Now, I can say that I've seen. It's not a matter of personal preferences : it's a matter when user you support report you a bug when it is supposed to be a feature. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Users ignore this kind of popup behavior because the internet, and viruses do this crap all the time. The same way you filter out ads online, in the store, on tv, wherever you are... you don't see an ad trying to get your attention and say OH DAMN, MUST PAY ATTENTION! There *was* one place we knew we could always look when we had updates... and now it's lost in the shuffle of random crap in the background. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:07 AM, mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 08:11 +, Lionel Dricot wrote: Graeme the number of duplicates speaks for itself. But it seems that, for some reason, no usability is involved in this bug What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? [not to troll , Just curious.] Isnt it because the users were instructed to depend on the icon only? If they were told to update when the update-manager window opens wouldnt this have been solved? (the current behaviour is against nearly *every* usability rule ). As in? I assume (and I hope) that this more-important-than-usability reason worth it and I'm not a huge fan of this change , but it has its merits. I would like more communication from the people responsible of this behaviour. mpt has explained this change plenty of times on this bug report. you can see the number of comments he has made , kindly read them. Not sure how much more it can be explained. OTOH , the update manager window ,as well, is going to be improved for Lucid. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Invalid Status in NULL Project: Fix Released Status in “update-notifier” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Status in “update-notifier” source package in Jaunty: Won't Fix Bug description: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. The window currently opens far too often when security updates are available: this is because of bug 369198, which is awaiting testing before it can be fixed in Ubuntu 9.04. To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false (Take into account that this gconf change is not supported.) To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update-notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
2009/11/17 Leandro leandromartine...@gmail.com: Also, can you imagine the security absurd for a unexperienced user which gets used to the system popuping something AND asking for root privileges? How easy is to mimic that with a website popup? That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. However it would need to be done very carefully so that the developers can not counter argument (I have the feeling that I have already something on this subject in Ayatana list, but it didn't catch up). If we had a web site that could mimic the behavior so that a innocent user might give away his root password then we may have a real situation to complain once again. Unfortunately I don't have the resources (knowledge and time) to try to do it myself. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Le mardi 17 novembre 2009 à 21:17 +, Paulo J. S. Silva a écrit : That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. This should *NOT* be a developer decision as it's only a matter of checking a box in GConf. This is an usability decision (and maybe also a security related decision). Some of the best developers out there are simply not able to think about usability (even if they often think they are) and some of the best usability specialists cannot write a Hello World. Definitely not the same job. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Lionel, Whoever made the decision (in this case probably some usability expert), will have to at least reconsider his/her decision in face of a real security risk even if to confirm it later. In my email, please read developer in a more general sense, as someone in the development team who is responsible for such decisions. Paulo 2009/11/17 Lionel Dricot pl...@ploum.net: Le mardi 17 novembre 2009 à 21:17 +, Paulo J. S. Silva a écrit : That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. This should *NOT* be a developer decision as it's only a matter of checking a box in GConf. This is an usability decision (and maybe also a security related decision). Some of the best developers out there are simply not able to think about usability (even if they often think they are) and some of the best usability specialists cannot write a Hello World. Definitely not the same job. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Mon, 2009-08-17 at 15:04 +, Rajeev Nair wrote: Any user who knows the admin password can install updates, That's a pretty long stretch -- assuming that all users have the admin password. This is *exactly* the mentality that has lead to millions of windows machines being exploited and botnet soldiers. Users should not have the admin password. so iam not sure what you mean by 'update manager appears for users who dont have permission to install' Again, not all users have admin rights. You need to stop thinking about the simplistic case of home user that installs Ubuntu on their own machine. In a properly managed corporate environment, the users won't have admin rights. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On lun, 2009-07-06 at 13:36 +, Chauncellor wrote: A quote from my friend on his Mac's notification system: I find the bouncy icon annoying and all, but if it weren't there I'd probably never update. When it does bounce, I see all the updates and if I don't use some programs in the list ill [sic] just ignore them altogether. While I in NO WAY would like to see bouncing icons, I think it proves that there can be something done other than blatant pop-ups that will grab the user's attention. But, yes I know that guidelines are usually untouchable for good reasons, but I ask: why couldn't they just blink for two seconds, with a long period (e.g. .5 secs)? And then stay normal, and then blink again in two hours or so. It wouldn't be annoying at all I think. V. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I can certainly agree with and appreciate that. It is true that the notification area in the average Ubuntu installation is nowhere near as cluttered as the system tray in the average Windows installation, and it is better to solve a problem *before* it becomes a problem rather than after. I'd like to think that Ubuntu users are a cut above Windows users, and that we don't simply ignore icons we don't understand. With that said, however, I also understand that when a Windows user chooses to (or is persuaded to) try out Linux, Ubuntu is usually the distro of choice - and for good reason. While a cluttered notification area is not very ideal, forcing windows to pop up uncommanded in the user's face is truly bad form - the sort of thing I thought GNU/Linux was above. The average Windows convert would likely panic, thinking that he or she had contracted a virus; and the average Linux user would start having Windows flashbacks. I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, and that the people who *really* need to hear this are no longer listening, but... If Ubuntu is going to continue to serve as the bridge between the Windows and Linux communities, then we really need to set better examples than this, and not give in to the Windows way of doing things. -Original Message- From: Chauncellor Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:13:25 - Loïc Martin: I believe that, while it was certainly a plus for them to clean up the notification dialogue, the end goal was to make updates more noticeable and present for the average user that would probably just ignore the icon in the tray. Nine out of ten Windows machines that I fix have a swamp of icons in the tray, and the customers that I handle almost always don't know what any of them do. While there is certainly a lesser amount of icons in Ubuntu, it would still probably be ignored just as much. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
In what way will the way the pop under change in the way it is presented? It really doesn't matter how it is presented, if it pops up in the users space it is going to be hated by most people. Media center PC's, presentations, people doing real work will always find it a huge annoyance if it uses the user program space (the desktop) in any fashion short of checking that the PC has been idle for at least a couple of hours and that no media types are playing. boun...@canonical.com wrote: mac_v wrote: The notification area icon is *not* returning... That's not true. The notification area icon is probably not returning for the next release of Ubuntu, but in 2 or 3 years time, when everybody will have forgotten, there's nothing to prevent it to be reintroduced as a groundbreaking new feature in Ubuntu. It just needs the designer to change his mind (unless the idea to test it in Jaunty was just for show, and the designer actually only care to get his feature implemented), or just move on to another job. It might take more time, maybe 5 to 10 years, but saying it will not return is a bit far-fetched. And saying that saving 20x20 pixel (the notification area icon) is an issue only to waste far more space on the bottom panel (Window List) and on the desktop is certainly a design issue that needs to be rethought. Since it doesn't use the notification icon, the new behavior actually has to use the Windows List AND the desktop as huge notification areas - they're not designed for this task, and misusing desktop features is certainly a bigger design issue. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: New Status in NULL Project: Fix Released Status in “update-notifier” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Status in update-notifier in Ubuntu Jaunty: Won't Fix Bug description: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. The window currently opens far too often when security updates are available: this is because of bug 369198, which is awaiting testing before it can be fixed in Ubuntu 9.04. To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false (Take into account that this gconf change is not supported.) To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update-notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
When I reported the bug I thought it might be a security issue and I still think it might. In my case the window opened spontaneously and I got notification of updates but when I closed that window without updating and clicked on update manager to deliberately open the window and check for updates I got message that there were no updates.This happened twice and the second time I made certain that to close the spontaneously opened window without updating but still, when I myself opened update manager, I got notification there were no updates . Has someone (big if) found a way to mimic the update window? If so it can be used it to spoof us into downloading malicious software.Even if they don't use it for this purpose it implies a possible weakness in system security. But I emphasize that I don't know if this is indeed the case. Other than that I have no idea of what is happening. Chauncellor wrote: Still getting dupes of this. We're up to 32, now Any word on what's up? -- Bernard Springer ath...@gmail.com -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Just my 2 cents, but I consider we're going right into a wall if we design intrusive tools, even if the intrusiveness (does this word exist ?) is legitimate. Remember what about to Windows' UAC. Imo, it should be ok to use a notify-osd notification + a systray icon for updates as soon as they're available, and to pop-up the window only on extreme cases : * one whole week for security updates (yes it's a lot, but i think it's reasonable) * thirty days for normal updates - AND ONLY ONCE ! if the user does not want to do the updates, then let him not do them, his choice ! And if the window opens that way, it should explicitely say There have been updates for # days but you didn't click on the updates orange/red icon in your panel, so we thought you might not have noticed it. If you want to do the updates now, click on the Update button. This way, the user knows _why_ it went in his/her way and will know how to avoid this : by explicitely making the updates when they're available (which should be easy for him/her to see, with the systray icon). -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Steve Dodier wrote: Imo, it should be ok to use a notify-osd notification + a systray icon for updates as soon as they're available, and to pop-up the window only on extreme cases : @ Steve: The pop-up window seems like a reasonable option in the scenario's you've given... But i feel that automatic Pop-ups in any form should be discouraged... IMO pop-up/under are a security flaw. NO window Should populate the window list unless the user has opened it... [A Daemon process should NOT open new programs on its own without asking for user's permissions or explicit user settings] A better alternative would be a Notification system that allows interaction/ morphing alert box [So these could present the user with the options to either downloadInstall now or To dismiss] *And repeating the notifications at the time of user's choice*... which makes the need for a systray icon[as a remainder] unnecessary. Also the DX team has made it very clear that systray icon WILL NOT return... I had been very vocal here opposing the change but i went with it... And *even though it might not have been the intended purpose* for the removal of the icon, *I have found the icon removal useful* ... *Now I dont think much about the updates* , there is no icon nagging me about the updates. Just think about the Updates , its just a sugar-coated word for oops-the-devs-didnt-realize-this-mistake-earlier , Updates are for the flaws which wasnt realized while baking the release... and to be fair to all devs ,no OS can EVER do it perfectly without a need for updates. So, instead of drawing so much attention to these updates , making it easy for the end-user to not pay much attention is a more ideal way of thinking. As mpt has said that they are looking for a decent solution,This is what i'v proposed in Ayatana, with Hopes the DX Team takes notice ==For updates to be less intrusive to the user== * From an idea proposed by David Siegel , And further expanding it When the user receives the updates notification,user chooses to download Install the packages , * Installation of Updates the dont require restart are done immediately, * Before starting the installation of package+dependencies, which requires a restart, the user is warned that this particular package requires a reboot. * User either chooses, install now or during next boot . For good implementation of this, updates need to be clearly marked as 1:security 2:criticalsolves a major crash/freeze issue of the package / major improvement of package responsiveness 3:non-criticalminor tweaks to performance So when the user is presented with the update requiring reboot,he is told that [1]This update solves a crash/freeze problem seen in this package/Gives you major improvement of package responsiveness [2] This update is a non-critical update [3] This is a security Update * So the user decides , if he has the problem, he can do the update immediately... If not, delay it for the next boot. * If the user later decides to update before the reboot, he should be able to do so from the update manager, where a reminder saysInstall pending updates. * The same can be done for the firefox updates too... download the updates when the user accepts and since it requires restart of the browser , WAIT till the browser is closed and then install the updates. So no need to restart the browser. * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Cheers, mac_v -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I had been very vocal here opposing the change but i went with it... And *even though it might not have been the intended purpose* for the removal of the icon, *I have found the icon removal useful* ... *Now I dont think much about the updates* , there is no icon nagging me about the updates. ... * From an idea proposed by David Siegel , And further expanding it When the user receives the updates notification,user chooses to download Install the packages , * Installation of Updates the dont require restart are done immediately, * Before starting the installation of package+dependencies, which requires a restart, the user is warned that this particular package requires a reboot. * User either chooses, install now or during next boot . If I am working I want to ignore the update message. I will have time for it later in the day. I don't want to decide anything, I want to keep on working. This is already decided. I don't want to take an action. I don't want a pop-up/pop-under (so I have to actively close it). I want a notification for this. It will go away by itself. Maybe a scarier notification (with a different background color, red for example), can be good. So that even though I am free to ignore it, I will know that it is red, then it is a system notification. * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Really? Usually, if I do not choose to update right away it is because I am concentrating on what I am doing. Usually I can not accurately predict for how long I will work to define the exact moment the update notification should appear again. If the notification appears while I am still concentrating I will not look at it. Or are you talking about the pop-under (that would annoy me again if I am working)? I would greatly prefer to have a constant reminder in the panel. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva Teoria é o que não entendemos o (Theory is something we don't) suficiente para chamar de prática. (understand well enough to call practice) -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Really? Usually, if I do not choose to update right away it is because I am concentrating on what I am doing. Usually I can not accurately predict for how long I will work to define the exact moment the update notification should appear again. If the notification appears while I am still concentrating I will not look at it. Or are you talking about the pop-under (that would annoy me again if I am working)? I would greatly prefer to have a constant reminder in the panel. I'm against the pop-ups too, i was referring to interactive notifications/ morphing alert boxes. The next time the reminder pops up, you can again postpone it ... and so on... Well... the DX team is not going to allow panel icon:( , so i feel this is the closest to an update reminder we can have... cheers, mac_v -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
