Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc
Le 15/10/2011 20:39, Manish Sinha a écrit : Hello, Hey Manish, Right now Ubuntu and esp Unity depends on zeitgeist for searches, recommendations etc. Right now only those events are logged by zeitgeist-datahub. It cannot log each and every user event. To increase the logging, there exists datasources which are plugins/addins for applications. For default applications datasources exists for tomboy, gedit, banshee, totem, firefox, empathy (telepathy) and eog. These datasources should also be shipped with Ubuntu. Datasources for thunderbird is in development. Datasources for transmission and shotwell don't exist. It needs to be done. Yeah, this seem a right goal, it's part of things I tracked, but wasn't considered a priority last cycle with all the other changes coming. Now, it's maybe time to integrate them. Now some questions: - do you have automatic testsuite for them, running on different versions of upstream projects? - how do oyu work with firefox in particular, where we update the released version through release life? We generally avoid shipping plugins for this reason. - can you elaborate on one of the major flaw of zeitgeist which seems a bigger priority to me: when you plug an usb key, or have a windows/ubuntu partition, as zeitgeist isn't a indexer, we can't see them in the file lens in particularly. I know that Seif has a script for that, but it doesn't seem to be suited for indexing and Mikkel has some concerns about it. Can we put that on the table as one of the priority for Precise? My proposal does not start and end with datasources. We should also include activity-log-manager in the default install. This application is a privacy and history manager. You can blacklist applications, set zeitgeist in incognito mode, erase history etc. We discussed that this cycle already, and I think that it should really be integrated in gnome-control-center rather than having another capplet. Do you think it's possible? In case you don't know who am I. I work mostly on datasources for zeitgeist. Any more clarifications are invited Excellent! I think that if those 4 items are addressed, datasources is definitively something which will be great and real in Precise! Thanks for your proposal, Didier -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Didier Roche didro...@ubuntu.com wrote: Yeah, this seem a right goal, it's part of things I tracked, but wasn't considered a priority last cycle with all the other changes coming. Now, it's maybe time to integrate them. Sounds good. Now some questions: - do you have automatic testsuite for them, running on different versions of upstream projects? Not right now, but I can create them. I can create them for atleast those apps which are default in Ubuntu - how do oyu work with firefox in particular, where we update the released version through release life? We generally avoid shipping plugins for this reason. Our old version of firefox datasource was using XUL/binary components. After the horror, of it breaking every cycle, Mark Tully ported it to js-ctypes. js-ctypes was introduced in Firefox 4.0. So, an upgrade won't break it. https://developer.mozilla.org/en/js-ctypes http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2007/09/hello-js-ctypes-goodbye-binary-components/ Mark Tully also has also created an internet/web lens which can use the events of firefox and thunderbird. - can you elaborate on one of the major flaw of zeitgeist which seems a bigger priority to me: when you plug an usb key, or have a windows/ubuntu partition, as zeitgeist isn't a indexer, we can't see them in the file lens in particularly. I know that Seif has a script for that, but it doesn't seem to be suited for indexing and Mikkel has some concerns about it. Can we put that on the table as one of the priority for Precise? Yes, that script is present in activity-log-manager (the version is not released). I was working on it and found that the current version was pretty slow. Probably some tricks can be undertaken to make it index only upto a specific depth. The other option can be that file-lens can use a hybrid of zeitgeist for usage, relevancy and all usage based recommendation and hook to locate unix tool for searching. Correct me, if I am wrong, but locate does keep indexing files? Right? My proposal does not start and end with datasources. We should also include activity-log-manager in the default install. This application is a privacy and history manager. You can blacklist applications, set zeitgeist in incognito mode, erase history etc. We discussed that this cycle already, and I think that it should really be integrated in gnome-control-center rather than having another capplet. Do you think it's possible? Yes. It is possible. I never worked on gnome-control-center, but it is possible. The first release was created in hurry to check how much options we can provide to the user. The current codebase of activity-log-manager is in python. Does gnome-control-center have it's components/plugs (or whatever they call it) written in python? - Manish -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc
Den 19. okt. 2011 08:24, skrev Didier Roche: [snip] Now some questions: - do you have automatic testsuite for them, running on different versions of upstream projects? - how do oyu work with firefox in particular, where we update the released version through release life? We generally avoid shipping plugins for this reason. - can you elaborate on one of the major flaw of zeitgeist which seems a bigger priority to me: when you plug an usb key, or have a windows/ubuntu partition, as zeitgeist isn't a indexer, we can't see them in the file lens in particularly. I know that Seif has a script for that, but it doesn't seem to be suited for indexing and Mikkel has some concerns about it. Can we put that on the table as one of the priority for Precise? I don't think this is simply a technical issue. It's first and foremost a design issue. When I have opened a file, then you can know that the file is of some interest to me. The fact that I haven't open a file, doesn't prove that it isn't interesting, but you just can't know. I regard Zeitgeist is a logger that enables applications to learn from my actions, not as a general indexer like Tracker. In order for the dash and lenses to be effective, I think it should primarily display files I've shown some interest in. Similarly, the web lens should only display sites I've actually visited, not intermingle results from Google, since I haven't shown any interested in all those other sites. Searching for the unknown is completely different from searching your personal history. The thing I like most about the current way the lenses work, is that no results are ever entirely irrelevant, since at some point, I've chosen to use them all. I'm very concerned that mixing these types of searches will introduce many false positives, which will reduce the user experience. Searching for things you've never used is obviously quite useful, and an interesting field that should be treated as a separate topic. Because of its nature, you'll want the ability to define a lot of parameters for such a search, and I'm not convinced that lenses are ready for that. These are some of the parameters that the lens would have to have in order to provide a good search for unused things: * Name (duh) * Time created (from and to) * Time modified (from and to) * Specific folder(s) * How deep to search * Specific servers (nfs, samba, ftp, etc) * Size (to and from) * User or group the file belongs to * File type * Whether or not to search file files content * Source (did you download it from the web, received it in email, bit torrent, etc) These are only the parameters that immediately comes to mind. I'm sure there are many more. But already, this has become a fairly long list, and it's likely that you'd want the ability to store that search. From my perspective, it seems that forcing these types of searches into the dash will both reduce the quality of results from my log, and reduce the ability to search for things I've never used. For that reason, I would recommend that the dash be used only to search for things that are known to be interesting because it's been used, and that a more powerful desktop search engine be developed separately. Obviously, this application would be able to use the same data sources that are used in the dash, but would provide much greater level of detail. Then the dash could use stored searches from that app as a source, because then you have defined an interest, so it's no longer random data, and the results will still be relevant. Does it make sense to you? :) Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think this is simply a technical issue. It's first and foremost a design issue. When I have opened a file, then you can know that the file is of some interest to me. The fact that I haven't open a file, doesn't prove that it isn't interesting, but you just can't know. I regard Zeitgeist is a logger that enables applications to learn from my actions, not as a general indexer like Tracker. In order for the dash and lenses to be effective, I think it should primarily display files I've shown some interest in. Similarly, the web lens should only display sites I've actually visited, not intermingle results from Google, since I haven't shown any interested in all those other sites. I was suggesting that when you search for files, then the results from Zeitgeist would be retrieved and shown first as you have actively opened them at some point. The more times you open it, it's importance should increase and the dash should be able to take care of this fact. Files which have never been opened arn't rated on relevancy scale. They are just kind of files which show up because the user wants files which match this name. - Manish Searching for the unknown is completely different from searching your personal history. The thing I like most about the current way the lenses work, is that no results are ever entirely irrelevant, since at some point, I've chosen to use them all. I'm very concerned that mixing these types of searches will introduce many false positives, which will reduce the user experience. Searching for things you've never used is obviously quite useful, and an interesting field that should be treated as a separate topic. Because of its nature, you'll want the ability to define a lot of parameters for such a search, and I'm not convinced that lenses are ready for that. These are some of the parameters that the lens would have to have in order to provide a good search for unused things: * Name (duh) * Time created (from and to) * Time modified (from and to) * Specific folder(s) * How deep to search * Specific servers (nfs, samba, ftp, etc) * Size (to and from) * User or group the file belongs to * File type * Whether or not to search file files content * Source (did you download it from the web, received it in email, bit torrent, etc) These are only the parameters that immediately comes to mind. I'm sure there are many more. But already, this has become a fairly long list, and it's likely that you'd want the ability to store that search. From my perspective, it seems that forcing these types of searches into the dash will both reduce the quality of results from my log, and reduce the ability to search for things I've never used. For that reason, I would recommend that the dash be used only to search for things that are known to be interesting because it's been used, and that a more powerful desktop search engine be developed separately. Obviously, this application would be able to use the same data sources that are used in the dash, but would provide much greater level of detail. Then the dash could use stored searches from that app as a source, because then you have defined an interest, so it's no longer random data, and the results will still be relevant. Does it make sense to you? :) Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc
Le 19/10/2011 15:16, Manish Sinha a écrit : On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think this is simply a technical issue. It's first and foremost a design issue. When I have opened a file, then you can know that the file is of some interest to me. The fact that I haven't open a file, doesn't prove that it isn't interesting, but you just can't know. I regard Zeitgeist is a logger that enables applications to learn from my actions, not as a general indexer like Tracker. In order for the dash and lenses to be effective, I think it should primarily display files I've shown some interest in. Similarly, the web lens should only display sites I've actually visited, not intermingle results from Google, since I haven't shown any interested in all those other sites. I was suggesting that when you search for files, then the results from Zeitgeist would be retrieved and shown first as you have actively opened them at some point. The more times you open it, it's importance should increase and the dash should be able to take care of this fact. Files which have never been opened arn't rated on relevancy scale. They are just kind of files which show up because the user wants files which match this name. Totally agree with that vision, that's how the revelancy of the query should be IMHO. I think that ignoring non opened filed on the system (or rather, not known opened file, because you maybe opened a file on your usb key at some point?) suggested as a solution for revelancy isn't right. For instance, you can argue that zeitgeist should then forget about files that I didn't open in the last 3 years? Why this file should then show and not the one I created on a windows double boot, or just before installing ubuntu (which can be only few weeks ago)? I guess that still having the data is interesting, but of course, it will be shown way after more relevant (and recently opened) ones. Didier -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
[Desktop12.04-Topic] Deeper Zeitgeist integration. Installation of datasources for default applications etc
Hello, Right now Ubuntu and esp Unity depends on zeitgeist for searches, recommendations etc. Right now only those events are logged by zeitgeist-datahub. It cannot log each and every user event. To increase the logging, there exists datasources which are plugins/addins for applications. For default applications datasources exists for tomboy, gedit, banshee, totem, firefox, empathy (telepathy) and eog. These datasources should also be shipped with Ubuntu. Datasources for thunderbird is in development. Datasources for transmission and shotwell don't exist. It needs to be done. My proposal does not start and end with datasources. We should also include activity-log-manager in the default install. This application is a privacy and history manager. You can blacklist applications, set zeitgeist in incognito mode, erase history etc. If possible, Internet lens can be included by default provided firefox and thunderbird datasources are installed by default. This will help users search for their browsing history and mails too. I will put up an even more detailed plan on the wiki provided this proposal is accepted. In case you don't know who am I. I work mostly on datasources for zeitgeist. Any more clarifications are invited -- Manish -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
