Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Pedro Bessa]

""The Unity API is minimal. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/LauncherAPI I 
can't position, I can't edit, I can't remove and I can't add anything.""


"You are comparing a very mature and years old product Firefox with a 
very recent app called Unity. I am not a Unity dev but I would 
personally prefer that they put more efforts in making Unity more stable 
and smooth than adding customization options and making the path towards 
breaking unity more easier."


Ubuntu 11.04 was unstable, but Ubuntu 11.10 is already stable, so it's 
time to add customizations. Stability is good, but not everything. 
Usability exists too. I think Ubuntu is mainly worried about usability. 
It's Debian that is mainly worried about stability.


Firefox has XML with getElementById, insertBefore, 
getElementsByClassName etc and that's how you position things anywhere 
you want. The Unity source code has some xml already, so the Unity 
developers have to add the rest of XML to the Unity source code.


Imagine the experimentation that would happen. It would be awesome, like 
Firefox is. Features that you weren't expecting would be added to Ubuntu 
by the others and if you're a programmer, you would be able to surprise 
the others too. Maybe, Windows or Apple would copy the easy platform 
customization from Ubuntu which copied from Firefox.



""You said you don't want customizeability (I mean, you make unity have 
unmodifiable defaults) and you said you want more apps (I mean, you put 
a huge effort in the Ubuntu Software Store), but these two things are a 
contradication, because *if we can't do anything,""


"It isn't contradiction. Think about it, write an app which makes a 
beautiful UI for editing preferences already exposed by Unity. Put it in 
software center. Plus non customization doesn't mean it is contradiction 
to app development. If you are writing a word processor app or a media 
player app how does it matter that for that app to run Unity needs to be 
more customizable?"


Gunity, Confity, MyUnity even CompizConfig already customize unity that 
way and it's unsatisfying.


You want to invite more apps and you're seeing a way to invite more 
apps, which is giving the power to change the platform like Firefox did 
and worked, but you're dropping the way to invite more apps. I pinpoint 
that it sounds weird.



""why should we develop apps for you*?""

"What do you mean by we? It can be reworded as "why should *I* write 
apps for you". Plus I don't know where we are going with this *you* and 
*us* mentality."


We programmers like Firefox and Chrome extension programmers. Sometimes, 
we feel like the platform should be changed. The Windows 95 look is 15 
years old. The Ubuntu decision team got the taste of changing the 
platform, but we didn't and we would be excited to change the platform.



""Plus, Firefox writes tutorials that start from overview, allow to go 
in-depth, have examples and I think Ubuntu should do that too""


"developer.ubuntu.com is aimed towards that"

sry about this part


double quotes -> Pedro Bessa
single quote -> Manish
no quote -> Pedro Bessa

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Davor]

Well, now we can see: this discussion does not lead anywhere. What we are  
discussing? Unity is here to stay, and we can only think how to improve it  
and make it easier to use.


Ever since I first sat down in a car, i use manual transmission and I have  
definitely gotten used to it, which does not mean that it is easier to use  
than the automatic.

Same with Unity.

Let us be constructive.

P.S. I don`t use Firefox at all




Dana Sat, 19 Nov 2011 21:47:16 +0100, Jo-Erlend Schinstad  
 napisao/napisala je:



Den 19. nov. 2011 21:36, skrev Mr. Alexander Etter:


My claim is false.
Mr. Etter


Great, so we have confirmed that at least we haven't lost features wrt
keyboard use since 10.04 and that we have attained some new ones. Now we
should find out which are still missing. Luckily, this is one of the
primary focuses for 12.04. Since we're obviously both interested in the
subject, we should get started. :)

Jo-Erlend Schinstad



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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 19. nov. 2011 21:36, skrev Mr. Alexander Etter:


My claim is false.
Mr. Etter


Great, so we have confirmed that at least we haven't lost features wrt 
keyboard use since 10.04 and that we have attained some new ones. Now we 
should find out which are still missing. Luckily, this is one of the 
primary focuses for 12.04. Since we're obviously both interested in the 
subject, we should get started. :)


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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Mr. Alexander Etter]

On 11/19/2011 03:31 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:

Den 19. nov. 2011 20:51, skrev Alexander:

Sorry for the confusion. Anyway I don't understand your double negative:

This is something I've never been able to do in a desktop shell
before.

Can you give one example of a desktop task that cannot be
performed without a mouse?


 What are you asking? I'm confused about /giving an example of a task 
that cannot be performed without an object./






You claim that you have to move to 10.04 because you cannot use Unity 
because it focuses only on mouse use. My claim is that this is your 
claim. My claim is provable because the emails exist. I say that isn't 
true, and that we have a large array of keyboard shortcuts that is far 
beyond anything available in 10.04. This means that Unity is _less_ 
dependent on using the mouse than the thing you've switched to for 
that purpose.


Not underestimating you, I ask if you have any concrete examples of 
things you can do with the keyboard in 10.04 that you cannot do in 
11.10. You are making the claim that this is so, which means the 
burden of evidence is on you. I tried to make it easy for you. If you 
can prove that Unity is less keyboard-friendly than the default shell 
and WM in 10.04, then we will all learn and it'll get fixed. If you 
cannot, then your claim is false. This is the beauty of peer review.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad




My claim is false.
Mr. Etter
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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 19. nov. 2011 20:51, skrev Alexander:

Sorry for the confusion. Anyway I don't understand your double negative:

This is something I've never been able to do in a desktop shell
before.

Can you give one example of a desktop task that cannot be
performed without a mouse?


 What are you asking? I'm confused about /giving an example of a task 
that cannot be performed without an object./






You claim that you have to move to 10.04 because you cannot use Unity 
because it focuses only on mouse use. My claim is that this is your 
claim. My claim is provable because the emails exist. I say that isn't 
true, and that we have a large array of keyboard shortcuts that is far 
beyond anything available in 10.04. This means that Unity is _less_ 
dependent on using the mouse than the thing you've switched to for that 
purpose.


Not underestimating you, I ask if you have any concrete examples of 
things you can do with the keyboard in 10.04 that you cannot do in 
11.10. You are making the claim that this is so, which means the burden 
of evidence is on you. I tried to make it easy for you. If you can prove 
that Unity is less keyboard-friendly than the default shell and WM in 
10.04, then we will all learn and it'll get fixed. If you cannot, then 
your claim is false. This is the beauty of peer review.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Alexander]

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <
joerlend.schins...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Den 19. nov. 2011 18:47, skrev Alexander:
>
>
>  You should ask more questions. The thing I like the most about Unity, is
>> how efficient it is to use without a mouse
>
> I appreciate your comments. Thanks for the advice. I enjoy hearing diverse
> opinions; for example I prefer the keyboard but you prefer the mouse! I
> like that.
> --
> Alexander
>
>
> I would be very interested in hearing how you reached that conclusion. I
> don't use a mouse, except on the web. I do all my desktop stuff using the
> keyboard.
>

Sorry for the confusion. Anyway I don't understand your double negative:

This is something I've never been able to do in a desktop shell before.
>


> Can you give one example of a desktop task that cannot be performed
> without a mouse?
>

 What are you asking? I'm confused about *giving an example of a task that
cannot be performed without an object.*

I'm talking about window management and other things Unity provides.
>
> I feel quite confident that you won't be able to come up with many, if
> any. If you do, then that's very valuable information. After all, Unity
> focuses on keyboard use.
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
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>
>


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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 19. nov. 2011 18:47, skrev Alexander:


You should ask more questions. The thing I like the most about
Unity, is how efficient it is to use without a mouse.


I appreciate your comments. Thanks for the advice. I enjoy hearing 
diverse opinions; for example I prefer the keyboard but you prefer the 
mouse! I like that.

--
Alexander



I would be very interested in hearing how you reached that conclusion. I 
don't use a mouse, except on the web. I do all my desktop stuff using 
the keyboard. This is something I've never been able to do in a desktop 
shell before. Can you give one example of a desktop task that cannot be 
performed without a mouse? I'm talking about window management and other 
things Unity provides.


I feel quite confident that you won't be able to come up with many, if 
any. If you do, then that's very valuable information. After all, Unity 
focuses on keyboard use.


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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Alexander]

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <
joerlend.schins...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Den 18. nov. 2011 21:14, skrev Alexander Etter:
>
>> I am glad I found this email. I can relate to it in many ways. I've tried
>> to get involved in developing Ubuntu, but nobody has reached out. 11.10 is
>> so bad on my machine I reverted to 10.04. I never liked Unity, it's silly
>> and implies heavy use of the mouse. I want to use the keyboard to navigate
>> everything.
>> And I like firefox too.
>> Just my thoughts on this matter; I don't intend to start a war but a
>> thoughtful discussion if anything.
>> Alexander
>>
>
> You should ask more questions. The thing I like the most about Unity, is
> how efficient it is to use without a mouse. I nearly only use the mouse for
> web these days. There are keyboard shortcuts for nearly everything. There
> are a few I would've wanted, such as using alt+num to choose between
> workspaces in the switcher, and  between windows in super+w instead of
> using arrow keys, but since there are other keyboard shortcuts available,
> such as alt+ctrl+arrows, and shift-alt+ctrl+arrows to move windows between
> workspaces, it's not very annoying.
>
> I would advise you to look for answers the next time you get frustrated by
> something, instead of just reinstalling the operating system, which is a
> fairly radical choice.
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
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> ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.**com 
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/**mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-**desktop
>

I appreciate your comments. Thanks for the advice. I enjoy hearing diverse
opinions; for example I prefer the keyboard but you prefer the mouse! I
like that.
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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 18. nov. 2011 21:14, skrev Alexander Etter:
I am glad I found this email. I can relate to it in many ways. I've 
tried to get involved in developing Ubuntu, but nobody has reached 
out. 11.10 is so bad on my machine I reverted to 10.04. I never liked 
Unity, it's silly and implies heavy use of the mouse. I want to use 
the keyboard to navigate everything.

And I like firefox too.
Just my thoughts on this matter; I don't intend to start a war but a 
thoughtful discussion if anything.

Alexander


You should ask more questions. The thing I like the most about Unity, is 
how efficient it is to use without a mouse. I nearly only use the mouse 
for web these days. There are keyboard shortcuts for nearly everything. 
There are a few I would've wanted, such as using alt+num to choose 
between workspaces in the switcher, and  between windows in super+w 
instead of using arrow keys, but since there are other keyboard 
shortcuts available, such as alt+ctrl+arrows, and shift-alt+ctrl+arrows 
to move windows between workspaces, it's not very annoying.


I would advise you to look for answers the next time you get frustrated 
by something, instead of just reinstalling the operating system, which 
is a fairly radical choice.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Manish Sinha]

> You're very defensive, argumentative and coming off as belligerent

I never knew reply to an aggressive mail is called defensive reply.

Anyway I hope you got all your replies and all the questions were answered.

By the way thanks for personal attacks. I won't reply back the same way.

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Alexander]

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Manish Sinha wrote:

> >  I did not say "needs," distinct from implies.
> Okay how does it even imply heavy usage of mouse? Personal experiences
> don't make univeral truths. It just implies that the person has not tried
> finding the keyboard shortcuts
>
> > Manish you seem defensive rather than helpful.
> Sorry. I have stopped sugar coating my replies. I prefer being blunt and
> to the point.
>
> Unhelpful? Providng links to to developer.ubuntu.com is unhelpful? Or
> pointing out that the unity keyboard shortcut cheat sheet is available on
> askubuntu means being unhelpful? Then what is the meaning of helpful?
>
> > Make love not war
>
> I think the best way to make war is bringing *us* and *you* in the
> discussion. That is exactly what I opposed in my reply. Dunno which other
> war statement you referring to.
>
> -
> Manish
>
I apologize for the confusion. By unhelpful I refer to the tone of your
replies. Maybe blunt and to the point is your style, sorry. You're very
defensive, argumentative and coming off as belligerent.
Again, I'm sorry.

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Bryce Harrington]

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 05:36:04PM -0500, Alexander wrote:
> Where can I get involved without directing me to developer.ubuntu.com
> or providing me suggestions?

Hi, this mailing list isn't really about development of Unity but more
focused on the overall desktop integration.  For Unity-specific
mailing lists and IRC channels, see:

  http://unity.ubuntu.com/contact-us/

Bryce

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Manish Sinha]

>  I did not say "needs," distinct from implies.
Okay how does it even imply heavy usage of mouse? Personal experiences
don't make univeral truths. It just implies that the person has not tried
finding the keyboard shortcuts

> Manish you seem defensive rather than helpful.
Sorry. I have stopped sugar coating my replies. I prefer being blunt and to
the point.

Unhelpful? Providng links to to developer.ubuntu.com is unhelpful? Or
pointing out that the unity keyboard shortcut cheat sheet is available on
askubuntu means being unhelpful? Then what is the meaning of helpful?

> Make love not war

I think the best way to make war is bringing *us* and *you* in the
discussion. That is exactly what I opposed in my reply. Dunno which other
war statement you referring to.

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Alexander]

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Manish Sinha wrote:

> > The Unity API is minimal. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/LauncherAPI I
> can't position, I can't edit, I can't remove and I can't add anything.
>
> You are comparing a very mature and years old product Firefox with a very
> recent app called Unity.
>
> I am not a Unity dev but I would personally prefer that they put more
> efforts in making Unity more stable and smooth than adding customization
> options and making the path towards breaking unity more easier.
>
> > You said you don't want customizeability (I mean, you make unity have
> unmodifiable defaults) and you said you want more apps (I mean, you put a
> huge effort in the Ubuntu Software Store), but these two things are a
> contradication, because *if we can't do anything,
>
> It isn't contradiction. Think about it, write an app which makes a
> beautiful UI for editing preferences already exposed by Unity. Put it in
> software center.
>
> Plus non customization doesn't mean it is contradiction to app
> development. If you are writing a word processor app or a media player app
> how does it matter that for that app to run Unity needs to be more
> customizable?
>
> > why should we develop apps for you*?
>
> What do you mean by we? It can be reworded as "why should *I* write apps
> for you". Plus I don't know where we are going with this *you* and *us*
> mentality.
>
> > Plus, Firefox writes tutorials that start from overview, allow to go
> in-depth, have examples and I think Ubuntu should do that too
>
> developer.ubuntu.com is aimed towards that
>
> -
> Manish
>
 I did not say "needs," distinct from *implies. *Manish you seem defensive
rather than helpful. Where can I get involved without directing me to
developer.ubuntu.com or providing me suggestions? Or ask me questions to
help you answer my questions?
Make love not war.
Alexander


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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Manish Sinha]

> The Unity API is minimal. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/LauncherAPI I
can't position, I can't edit, I can't remove and I can't add anything.

You are comparing a very mature and years old product Firefox with a very
recent app called Unity.

I am not a Unity dev but I would personally prefer that they put more
efforts in making Unity more stable and smooth than adding customization
options and making the path towards breaking unity more easier.

> You said you don't want customizeability (I mean, you make unity have
unmodifiable defaults) and you said you want more apps (I mean, you put a
huge effort in the Ubuntu Software Store), but these two things are a
contradication, because *if we can't do anything,

It isn't contradiction. Think about it, write an app which makes a
beautiful UI for editing preferences already exposed by Unity. Put it in
software center.

Plus non customization doesn't mean it is contradiction to app development.
If you are writing a word processor app or a media player app how does it
matter that for that app to run Unity needs to be more customizable?

> why should we develop apps for you*?

What do you mean by we? It can be reworded as "why should *I* write apps
for you". Plus I don't know where we are going with this *you* and *us*
mentality.

> Plus, Firefox writes tutorials that start from overview, allow to go
in-depth, have examples and I think Ubuntu should do that too

developer.ubuntu.com is aimed towards that

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Manish Sinha]

> I am glad I found this email. I can relate to it in many ways. I've tried
to get involved in developing Ubuntu, but nobody has reached out. 11.10 is
so bad on my machine I reverted to 10.04. I never liked Unity, it's silly
and implies heavy use of the mouse. I want to use the keyboard to navigate
everything.

I use Unity only with keyboard and not with mouse and it is more keyboard
friendly than the old gnome panel.

You probably need to learn the keyboard shortcuts before making such
statements like unity usage needs heavy use of mouse.
The keyboard cheat sheet is available on askubuntu

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Re: ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Alexander Etter]

On Nov 18, 2011, at 14:45, Pedro Bessa  wrote:

> Hi Ubuntu-desktop,
> I can change Firefox in any way. I can position, edit, remove and add any 
> interface element however I think is useful to the others. So I created two 
> add-ons. 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/addon-tools-in-app-button/ and 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ubiquity-in-awesomebar/
> 
> I reported many bugs to Ubuntu.
> To make you patch them, I need to convince you that the bug is so important 
> that you need to work, which is very hard.
> To make me patch them, I need to convince you that the bug is important, 
> otherwise the patch won't be approved, which is hard, then I need to patch 
> the bug, which is hard, then I need you to approve the code, which is hard, 
> so it's triple hard.
> To develop an app, I need to code my work and others will see my name, rate 
> it high, install it lots, congratulate me by e-mail, recognize my work, which 
> it's fun, then I need your approval to the Ubuntu Software Store and you put 
> a huge effort in it, you want more apps, which it's fun, then I show you 
> since the app's popular, the bug is important and according to xkcd, I'm 
> correcting a person on the internet, it's an important task, which it's fun, 
> so it's triple fun.
> 
> The Unity API is minimal. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/LauncherAPI I can't 
> position, I can't edit, I can't remove and I can't add anything.
> You said you don't want customizeability (I mean, you make unity have 
> unmodifiable defaults) and you said you want more apps (I mean, you put a 
> huge effort in the Ubuntu Software Store), but these two things are a 
> contradication, because *if we can't do anything, why should we develop apps 
> for you*?
> 
> Plus, Firefox writes tutorials that start from overview, allow to go 
> in-depth, have examples and I think Ubuntu should do that too.
> Best regards,
> Pedro Bessa
> 
I am glad I found this email. I can relate to it in many ways. I've tried to 
get involved in developing Ubuntu, but nobody has reached out. 11.10 is so bad 
on my machine I reverted to 10.04. I never liked Unity, it's silly and implies 
heavy use of the mouse. I want to use the keyboard to navigate everything. 
And I like firefox too.
Just my thoughts on this matter; I don't intend to start a war but a thoughtful 
discussion if anything.
Alexander
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ubuntu lacks ideas, firefox is full of ideas

[Pedro Bessa]

Hi Ubuntu-desktop,

I can change Firefox in any way. I can position, edit, remove and add 
any interface element however I think is useful to the others. So I 
created two 
add-ons.https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/addon-tools-in-app-button/ 
andhttps://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ubiquity-in-awesomebar/ 



I reported many bugs to Ubuntu.
To make you patch them, I need to convince you that the bug is so 
important that you need to work, which is very hard.
To make me patch them, I need to convince you that the bug is important, 
otherwise the patch won't be approved, which is hard, then I need to 
patch the bug, which is hard, then I need you to approve the code, which 
is hard, so it's triple hard.
To develop an app, I need to code my work and others will see my name, 
rate it high, install it lots, congratulate me by e-mail, recognize my 
work, which it's fun, then I need your approval to the Ubuntu Software 
Store and you put a huge effort in it, you want more apps, which it's 
fun, then I show you since the app's popular, the bug is important and 
according to xkcd, I'm correcting a person on the internet, it's an 
important task, which it's fun, so it's triple fun.


The Unity API is minimal.https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/LauncherAPI 
I can't position, I can't 
edit, I can't remove and I can't add anything.
You said you don't want customizeability (I mean, you make unity have 
unmodifiable defaults) and you said you want more apps (I mean, you put 
a huge effort in the Ubuntu Software Store), but these two things are a 
contradication, because *if we can't do anything, why should we develop 
apps for you*?


Plus, Firefox writes tutorials that start from overview, allow to go 
in-depth, have examples and I think Ubuntu should do that too.


Best regards,
Pedro Bessa

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