Re: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Iain Lane]

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 07:13:34PM +0100, Dmitry Shachnev wrote:
>  […]
> sni-qt can definitely be a Recommends of libqtgui4, it is useful on other
> desktops too (i.e. Plasma or Xubuntu).

Please do this.

> 
> fcitx-frontend-qt4: I don't think it has anything Unity-specific, and
> also most of the users don't need it, so can be a suggestion of libqtgui4.

Hmm. That would be quite unfortunate for users that *do* need it. We
discussed this on #ubuntu-desktop a few weeks ago, and back then I
suggested using language-selector to install this for users who have
fcitx installed. data/pkg-depends contains:

> # Column 3: dependency package(s). Only install the package in column 4 when 
> this dependency package is already installed.

so there is the basics of what we need. We'd need some development to
trigger check-language-support as appropriate to install this.

Not fixing this part right now still lets us get Qt4 out of the default
installation IIRC - but it would still be on the desktop ISO for the
'live' task support that we worked on last(?) cycle.

> 
> So we are down to appmenu-qt. It's tiny (the only non-Qt dependency is
> libdbusmenu-qt4) so probably it can be a recommendation of libqtgui4 too.

Please do this one too.

Cheers,

-- 
Iain Lane  [ i...@orangesquash.org.uk ]
Debian Developer   [ la...@debian.org ]
Ubuntu Developer   [ la...@ubuntu.com ]


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Re: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Sebastien Bacher  wrote:
> Hey there,
>
> The only reason the Xenial Ubuntu Desktop iso currently has qt4 still
> included is because the "integration components for softwares using that
> toolkit" are Recommends (appmenu-qt, sni-qt, fcitx-frontend-qt4).
>
> The default installation has no actual use for those but removing them
> would mean that an Unity user installing some qt4 software wouldn't get
> integrated menus/indicators/input method.
>
> We could make qt4 recommends them, but then they would be pulled in on
> other desktops environment where they are not needed ... how would other
> flavors feel about that?
> If that's not an option does somebody have a better suggestion/idea how
> we could get those installed for Unity users when required?
>
> Unsure if that's still something we might still want to do this cycle,
> I'm at least mentioning it in case somebody feels like working on those
> changes...
>

Isn't Qt 4 EOL now? Why not move Qt 4 stuff to universe?



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Re: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Colin Watson]

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 03:26:53PM -0400, Michael Hall wrote:
> I know that appmenu-qt technically depends on qt4 being installed, but
> if it will only be used by a qt4 app, and such an app would itself
> depend on the qt4 packages, would there be any harm in making appmenu-qt
> just *not* depend on qt4 packages itself?

This kind of thing is indeed technically possible, but IME it's risky:
if appmenu-qt should find itself with shared library linkage that
requires a newer version of the library (which could happen for reasons
as innocuous as a rebuild, if Qt were to change in certain kinds of
ways), then it would be easy to end up with an appmenu-qt that required
a newer version of Qt than was depended on by the applications in
question and thus would fail to start.

I guess the risk of this is probably low in this particular case since
Qt 4 isn't in particularly active development, but my concern would be
that this kind of trick has a habit of being copied into contexts where
it might be riskier despite looking innocuous.

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Re: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 09:30:25PM +, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 03:26:53PM -0400, Michael Hall wrote:
> > I know that appmenu-qt technically depends on qt4 being installed, but
> > if it will only be used by a qt4 app, and such an app would itself
> > depend on the qt4 packages, would there be any harm in making appmenu-qt
> > just *not* depend on qt4 packages itself?

> This kind of thing is indeed technically possible, but IME it's risky:
> if appmenu-qt should find itself with shared library linkage that
> requires a newer version of the library (which could happen for reasons
> as innocuous as a rebuild, if Qt were to change in certain kinds of
> ways), then it would be easy to end up with an appmenu-qt that required
> a newer version of Qt than was depended on by the applications in
> question and thus would fail to start.

> I guess the risk of this is probably low in this particular case since
> Qt 4 isn't in particularly active development, but my concern would be
> that this kind of trick has a habit of being copied into contexts where
> it might be riskier despite looking innocuous.

Exercise for the reader: take the substvars generated by dh_shlibdeps,
extract the relevant libraries and invert the version comparison to make it
a Breaks: against incompatible versions of libqt4 instead of a Depends: on
the required ones...

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Re: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Dmitry Shachnev]

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 03:26:53PM -0400, Michael Hall wrote:
> I know that appmenu-qt technically depends on qt4 being installed, but
> if it will only be used by a qt4 app, and such an app would itself
> depend on the qt4 packages, would there be any harm in making appmenu-qt
> just *not* depend on qt4 packages itself?

This will do the trick. But then we'll need to add this hack to both
appmenu-qt and libdbusmenu-qt…

Thinking more about it: sni-qt is quite critical because Unity has no fallback
X11 tray, and thus apps that use QSystemTrayIcons will function improperly when
sni-qt is not installed.

But appmenu-qt is less critical, without it apps will just have in-window menu
which is a slighly degraded experience, but will still work. So maybe we a
Suggests for it will be enough (we can keep that Suggests on indicator-appmenu
or move to libqtgui4, doesn't much matter).

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Re: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Dmitry Shachnev]

Hi,

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 06:21:04PM +0100, Sebastien Bacher wrote:
> Hey there,
>
> The only reason the Xenial Ubuntu Desktop iso currently has qt4 still
> included is because the "integration components for softwares using that
> toolkit" are Recommends (appmenu-qt, sni-qt, fcitx-frontend-qt4).
>
> The default installation has no actual use for those but removing them
> would mean that an Unity user installing some qt4 software wouldn't get
> integrated menus/indicators/input method.
>
> We could make qt4 recommends them, but then they would be pulled in on
> other desktops environment where they are not needed ... how would other
> flavors feel about that?
> If that's not an option does somebody have a better suggestion/idea how
> we could get those installed for Unity users when required?
>
> Unsure if that's still something we might still want to do this cycle,
> I'm at least mentioning it in case somebody feels like working on those
> changes...

sni-qt can definitely be a Recommends of libqtgui4, it is useful on other
desktops too (i.e. Plasma or Xubuntu).

fcitx-frontend-qt4: I don't think it has anything Unity-specific, and
also most of the users don't need it, so can be a suggestion of libqtgui4.

So we are down to appmenu-qt. It's tiny (the only non-Qt dependency is
libdbusmenu-qt4) so probably it can be a recommendation of libqtgui4 too.

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Re: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le 18/03/2016 19:13, Dmitry Shachnev a écrit :
> sni-qt can definitely be a Recommends of libqtgui4, it is useful on other
> desktops too (i.e. Plasma or Xubuntu).
>
> fcitx-frontend-qt4: I don't think it has anything Unity-specific, and
> also most of the users don't need it, so can be a suggestion of libqtgui4.
>
> So we are down to appmenu-qt. It's tiny (the only non-Qt dependency is
> libdbusmenu-qt4) so probably it can be a recommendation of libqtgui4 too.

That sounds good, so maybe we should push that forward for xenial?

I'm on holidays tonight for 10 days so I'm not going to be able to help
before being back but if you or Timo want to do the qt changes that
would be nice, then changing the seed and landing the appmenu recommends
change should be easy

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher

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Re: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Michael Hall]

I know that appmenu-qt technically depends on qt4 being installed, but
if it will only be used by a qt4 app, and such an app would itself
depend on the qt4 packages, would there be any harm in making appmenu-qt
just *not* depend on qt4 packages itself?

Michael Hall
mhall...@ubuntu.com

On 03/18/2016 01:21 PM, Sebastien Bacher wrote:
> Hey there,
> 
> The only reason the Xenial Ubuntu Desktop iso currently has qt4 still
> included is because the "integration components for softwares using that
> toolkit" are Recommends (appmenu-qt, sni-qt, fcitx-frontend-qt4).
> 
> The default installation has no actual use for those but removing them
> would mean that an Unity user installing some qt4 software wouldn't get
> integrated menus/indicators/input method.
> 
> We could make qt4 recommends them, but then they would be pulled in on
> other desktops environment where they are not needed ... how would other
> flavors feel about that?
> If that's not an option does somebody have a better suggestion/idea how
> we could get those installed for Unity users when required?
> 
> Unsure if that's still something we might still want to do this cycle,
> I'm at least mentioning it in case somebody feels like working on those
> changes...
> 
> Cheers,
> Sebastien Bacher
> 
> 

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Re: Fwd: Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Sean Davis]

Pretty sure this does not affect us directly.  We don't have QT on the 
iso, and users would need to install the qt packages required to show 
up in the indicator applet.


On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 1:58 PM, floccul...@gmx.co.uk wrote:


ftr

pretty confident we're not likely to like qt4

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?
Date:   Fri, 18 Mar 2016 18:21:04 +0100
From:   Sebastien Bacher <seb...@ubuntu.com>
To: Ubuntu Developers <ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com>

Hey there,

The only reason the Xenial Ubuntu Desktop iso currently has qt4 still
included is because the "integration components for softwares using 
that

toolkit" are Recommends (appmenu-qt, sni-qt, fcitx-frontend-qt4).

The default installation has no actual use for those but removing them
would mean that an Unity user installing some qt4 software wouldn't 
get

integrated menus/indicators/input method.

We could make qt4 recommends them, but then they would be pulled in on
other desktops environment where they are not needed ... how would 
other

flavors feel about that?
If that's not an option does somebody have a better suggestion/idea 
how

we could get those installed for Unity users when required?

Unsure if that's still something we might still want to do this cycle,
I'm at least mentioning it in case somebody feels like working on 
those

changes...

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher


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Only one qt version on the Ubuntu Desktop iso?

[Sebastien Bacher]

Hey there,

The only reason the Xenial Ubuntu Desktop iso currently has qt4 still
included is because the "integration components for softwares using that
toolkit" are Recommends (appmenu-qt, sni-qt, fcitx-frontend-qt4).

The default installation has no actual use for those but removing them
would mean that an Unity user installing some qt4 software wouldn't get
integrated menus/indicators/input method.

We could make qt4 recommends them, but then they would be pulled in on
other desktops environment where they are not needed ... how would other
flavors feel about that?
If that's not an option does somebody have a better suggestion/idea how
we could get those installed for Unity users when required?

Unsure if that's still something we might still want to do this cycle,
I'm at least mentioning it in case somebody feels like working on those
changes...

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher


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