Re: A tricky situation in malone bug 60995
On Oct 22, 2007, at 7:08 AM, Martin Olsson wrote: Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: A confirmation alert is usually the worst possible solution to any design problem. People treat it as an interruption rather than as a serious question. (Some horrid Web sites already do this, with JavaScript alerts of the form Are you sure you want to navigate away from this page?) I agree that confirmation is often a really bad solution. This is because of human habituation. Who actually writes rm thesis.txt and then press y to actually do the delete? Everyone writes rm -f thesis.txt and then a split second later they go no. This problem was fixed nicely on Windows using the Recycle Bin concept but on *nix there is no good standard solution yet afaik? There is. It's called the Trash. It even has a freedesktop.org spec. Imagine what would happen if someone suddenly checked-in a change to the rm command that removed the -f option, and motivated this change by saying that oh, but people are losing data so we must make it harder to loose data. And typically you have much more data in a file than you have in a form. The sort of people who use the terminal are used to the assumption that most terminal commands make -- that when you tell the computer to do something, you will never change your mind. That's partly why the developers of operating systems, Ubuntu included, strive to reduce the number of times people have to use a terminal: because graphical interfaces can be made more obviously forgiving. And to justify this crippled BACKSPACE key you still would have to explain why this is not a problem on Windows (the main platform of ignorant computer users)? Why is it that Firefox on Windows still has this really serious data loss problem? Maybe it's because if someone made a change like this in Firefox on Windows people would be converting back IE en masse. Windows users are accustomed to losing data. Of course, this is Linux so people don't have a choice (unless they want to go proprietary and use Opera). Or Epiphany, or Konqueror, or Galeon, or Seamonkey, or even the Firefox about:config value that determines what Backspace does. Because, as long as Windows has BACKSPACE==BACK there will be tons of newbie users coming over that all expect BACKSPACE==BACK. Every single one of them will be *annoyed* and *confused* when they discover this. ... And Mac users switching to Ubuntu are annoyed and confused when Command+M doesn't minimize the window, and Windows users switching to Mac are annoyed that Command+Tab works differently from Alt+Tab, and Mac users switching to Windows are annoyed and confused when Tab uselessly focuses something they can't type in, etc etc. They're different GUI dialects, get over it. If we try to make all our keyboard equivalents consistent with other OSes, we'll end up swimming in CUA-style mediocrity. ... There is no dataloss for Web sites that allow caching, but there is dataloss for sites that use HTTPS, such as wiki.ubuntu.com. Yea, I agree that HTTPS/bank sites cannot cache their data. I would prefer to have a dialog in this particular case, just like how there is existing dialogs for stuff like do you want to resubmit your POST data? and so on. So you agree that it's a really bad solution, but you prefer it anyway. Citing one of Firefox's most long-standing and embarrassing bugs https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112848 as an example to emulate doesn't really help your argument. One alternative would be to make [ the shortcut key for Back. ... The problem with this particular idea (of using [) is that on any non-english keyboard the [ key is really hard to use. On my keyboard I have hold AltGr and then press 8 to type a [. That's a good point. On reviewing the various keyboard layouts, I think perhaps , would be better for Back, and . for Forward (despite . requiring Shift in some layouts). Anyway, my point is that key bindings are like public APIs. Even if they are quite bad you cannot just change them. Microsoft and Windows and long understood this but as Linux starts to get actual users it's important that Linux understands this too (for key bindings). ... Microsoft doesn't know squat about designing keybindings. Why did they choose Ctrl+V for Paste -- by far the most popular command in Microsoft Office -- when (in QWERTY layout) it's difficult to reach with one hand? Why does Ctrl+X mean Move To... in Explorer and in Excel, but Cut to Clipboard everywhere else? Why is the Windows standard keybinding for Close (Alt+F4) so awkward and so little-known that it's a common source of IRC pranks? Why does Explorer have a single-key equivalent for Move to Recycle Bin (Delete), and then by default put up a confirmation alert (thereby missing the point entirely), instead of having a less accident-prone keybinding to begin with? Why does Backspace mean Delete in most places, Up in some, and Back in
Re: A tricky situation in malone bug 60995
Op maandag 22-10-2007 om 08:04 uur [tijdzone +1300], schreef Matthew Paul Thomas: Microsoft doesn't know squat about designing keybindings. Why did they choose Ctrl+V for Paste -- by far the most popular command in Microsoft Office -- when (in QWERTY layout) it's difficult to reach with one hand? I'm quite sure they copied this from Apple's Cmd+V etc., as they originally used IBM's CUA standard: Shift+Ins (which still works). -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Restricted tab-completion is annoying
On Thursday 11 October 2007 16:51:23 Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: On 11/10/2007 Aaron C. de Bruyn wrote: I don't think it's a good argument to say that people need to have user-friendly hand-holding at the command prompt. If I want to run 'evince somefile.asp' I should be able to. I don't care if the extension is .asp .pdf or .mystupidfile. The shortest path to solve usability of this would be to complete restricted for the first tab, and all files for the second. When I have file extension corrected, I love unzip to complete only .zip files. But this will always be in the way in many occasions. Just pressing tab again should extend the completion level. Vincenzo +2 -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: A tricky situation in malone bug 60995
On Sunday 21 October 2007 01:27:25 Martin Olsson wrote: I really really would like to see BACKSPACE as BACK working in Firefox. I think this is the kind of polish bug that makes a lot of people stay away from ubuntu (beyond hardware problems of course). https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/60995 Is there any established process for dealing with this type of situation. The bug is very very old so I think some kind of decision needs to be made on the issue. Maybe some kind of ubuntu board or some benevolent dictator person or someone could arrange some voting or whatever? Martin I usually just go to about:config and set backspace to a navigation key. But I also would like to see it as the DEFAULT. One annoying bug that was fixed, was double clicking on the address bar, would only select the all field, and not the word. not it seems to be fixed. Now, my only bug (not sure if it is on launchpad, but I see it also appear on windows), is that using using the menu-key (between alt-gr and ctrl) doesnt work the same as mouse right click. When I'm trying to spell check a word, I need to use the mouse, and cant use the keyboard. -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Accepted a few uploads which are not in gutsy-changes
On Sunday 14 October 2007 06:03:01 Sarah Hobbs wrote: Hey everyone, This is just a mail to let you know that i've ended up accepting a few packages (mostly translations, and a bit of universe stuff) silently - ie. a mail has not been sent to gutsy-changes about them. Obviously, this is not good as it leaves no paper trail, so I won't be accepting other things until this bug is fixed, so you'll need to poke other members of the Ubuntu Release Team to get things accepted - weekend or not. Apologies to any of you who were tracking gutsy-changes for uploads, and found some packages missing missing. Hobbsee (Launchpad bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/152400) Where this: kdelibs-data (4:3.5.8-0ubuntu2) to 4:3.5.8-0ubuntu3 kdelibs4c2a (4:3.5.8-0ubuntu2) to 4:3.5.8-0ubuntu3 They seem to have damage my kmail (and other KDE) icons, and I cant now change the size. its fixed at 22x22. I've forced a version fixed, to default gutsy, instead of this ubuntu3 proposed. -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: A tricky situation in malone bug 60995
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:13:52 +0200 Jan Claeys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Op zondag 21-10-2007 om 11:28 uur [tijdzone -0400], schreef Scott Kitterman: IIRC, there were a number of open bugs against Firefox regarding incorrect loss of focus and so what often happened was that you could lose focus in a text box without taking action to do so and then end up paging back when you thought you were editing text. So GNOME should disable all keys that can close windows or otherwise cause data loss because some bugs *elsewhere* might cause the current window to lose focus? (And there are many more such bugs in GNOME than in Firefox!) Before this change was implemented, I routinely lost data due to inadvertent loss of focus and backspace. Since then I don't. That's the bottom line for me. Personally I don't care what Gnome does. I've never used it. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: A tricky situation in malone bug 60995
On Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 06:17:24PM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote: On Sat, 2007-10-20 at 17:27 -0700, Martin Olsson wrote: I really really would like to see BACKSPACE as BACK working in Firefox. I think this is the kind of polish bug that makes a lot of people stay away from ubuntu (beyond hardware problems of course). https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/60995 Is there any established process for dealing with this type of situation. The bug is very very old so I think some kind of decision needs to be made on the issue. Maybe some kind of ubuntu board or some benevolent dictator person or someone could arrange some voting or whatever? You would have to successfully argue why one binding is better than another, countering any argument against that binding. Assuming that, the best way to start the discussion is to do as you've done, and begin a thread on ubuntu-devel-discuss. If this is a major issue, it should get a lot of replies and discussion. Another consideration here is that changes to the defaults like this need to be discussed with Mozilla upstream, as it's important to them that the user experience in Ubuntu be reasonably consistent with their builds. This was the old default, and they changed it, presumably for good reason. -- - mdz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Accepted a few uploads which are not in gutsy-changes
On Monday 22 October 2007 12:26:40 Sarah Hobbs wrote: That wasn't me. I only accepted things on the night preceding my mail. Please contact Jonathan Riddell, who made that upload, or other people on the KDE team. Hobbsee Where this: kdelibs-data (4:3.5.8-0ubuntu2) to 4:3.5.8-0ubuntu3 kdelibs4c2a (4:3.5.8-0ubuntu2) to 4:3.5.8-0ubuntu3 They seem to have damage my kmail (and other KDE) icons, and I cant now change the size. its fixed at 22x22. I've forced a version fixed, to default gutsy, instead of this ubuntu3 proposed. Thanks Sarah. I've reported on LP #155710 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdelibs/+bug/155710 -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: A tricky situation in malone bug 60995
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 12:59:13PM +0100, Matt Zimmerman wrote: On Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 06:17:24PM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote: On Sat, 2007-10-20 at 17:27 -0700, Martin Olsson wrote: I really really would like to see BACKSPACE as BACK working in Firefox. I think this is the kind of polish bug that makes a lot of people stay away from ubuntu (beyond hardware problems of course). https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/60995 Is there any established process for dealing with this type of situation. The bug is very very old so I think some kind of decision needs to be made on the issue. Maybe some kind of ubuntu board or some benevolent dictator person or someone could arrange some voting or whatever? You would have to successfully argue why one binding is better than another, countering any argument against that binding. Assuming that, the best way to start the discussion is to do as you've done, and begin a thread on ubuntu-devel-discuss. If this is a major issue, it should get a lot of replies and discussion. Another consideration here is that changes to the defaults like this need to be discussed with Mozilla upstream, as it's important to them that the user experience in Ubuntu be reasonably consistent with their builds. This was the old default, and they changed it, presumably for good reason. indeed, my decision to not revert the upstream change was based on the fact that this isn't really something that is ubuntu specific. So all these arguments should apply equally to other linux distributors. - Alexander -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Missing an up-to-date application stream
Hi I was recommended by a few people to bring the following bug to the attention of this list: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/148976 I have ideas on how we could go about implementing this, but I would also love to receive feedback on whether what I've proposed is likely to be made a priority in the long run. yours sincerely blue|palm C/C++ dev -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Buggy handling of fresh system install at logcheck's plugged 10-dtr code
I installed Ubuntu Gutsy with logcheck 1.2.61, logtail 1.2.61. Around 6
AM this morning, logcheck suddenly started failing, claiming that there
is a problem with logtail or output redirection.
I investigated the issue. When the system is fresh and the logrotates
are run for the first time, no files matching a pattern like
$filename.1.gz at /var/log exists. However, the savelog rotation
handler presumes the existence of such a file through
mtime($filename.1.gz), which dies on failure. The die seems OK in
principle; what is not OK is implicitly assuming that .1.gz must exist
if .0 exists.
Here's the fixed 10-savelog.dtr.
sub {
my ($filename) = @_;
my $rotated_filename=;
if (-e $filename.0
(! -e $filename.1.gz
|| mtime($filename.0) mtime($filename.1.gz))
) {
# assume the log is rotated by savelog(8)
# syslog-ng leaves old files here
$rotated_filename=$filename.0;
}
return $rotated_filename;
}
If this bug is not fixed, the logcheck crashes, complaining about a
problem with logtail. (logcheck's STDERR redirect hides the error.)
As a design issue, I believe the current pluggable logrotate detection
code is a bit foolish. Since every result from these plugged mechanisms
is going to be matched against the inode of the old log file, and
rejected if it does not match, it could make a lot more sense to simply
scan the whole directory looking for the inode number instead of trying
to heuristically guess what kind of log rotation is taking place.
In that case, the old file would be found by code like:
my ($rotated_file) = grep { inode($_) == $inode_from_state_file }
$directory/*
and no pluggable mechanisms for guessing rotated filenames would be
necessary.
--
Antti
--
Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Missing an up-to-date application stream
Hello, the described bug was the major motivation for the unofficial getdeb project, and I guess for several 3rd party repositories. I think this problem is more relevant to universe packages, the argument of regressions risk should be compared with the impossibility to use key features/fixes which are introduced on upstream versions but which are not targeted by the existing SRU policy. IMHO a key requirement for such repository is the upgrades selection option versus the automatic recommended upgrades, this can be easily achieved by expert users with APT pinning, however it should be implemented on a user friendly manner. A user may select to have 99% release packages, and 1% post release packages to cover a specific requirement. Best regards 2007/10/21, raeez [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi I was recommended by a few people to bring the following bug to the attention of this list: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/148976 I have ideas on how we could go about implementing this, but I would also love to receive feedback on whether what I've proposed is likely to be made a priority in the long run. yours sincerely blue|palm C/C++ dev -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- João Pinto IRC: Lamego @ irc.freenode.net Jabber ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] GetDeb Project Manager - http://www.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On 10/21/07, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What we need is a DIGG alike system for LP. Either by counting the number of subscribers/comments, thumbs up/down (digg alike), or an hybrid way of all this. What do you guys think? A digg thumb up for that idea :) -- Nicolas -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Oct 22, 2007, at 1:05 PM, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: ... What we need is a DIGG alike system for LP. Either by counting the number of subscribers/comments, thumbs up/down (digg alike), or an hybrid way of all this. What do you guys think? ... For a variety of reasons, how many votes a bug report receives from the sort of people who hang out in bug trackers (as wonderful as those people usually are) is often very different from how important the bug is to the project in general. This causes people to make useless comments of the form This bug has X votes, why is it only Medium importance!, which causes more e-mail notifications and slows down the developers further. It's possible that the extra noise voting would add to the bug tracker would be less than the noise it would subtract from mailing lists like this one. But in the absence of evidence about whether something will help overall, we tend to err on the side of not implementing it. Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
