Re: libc borked
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:30:14 -0400 Todd Deshane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cory, Please read: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct Also, you didn't provide any useful information. Bug reports, versions, etc. If it is hardy then you should expect things to break from time to time. If it is a stable release, then you should report bugs appropriately. The developers work hard and they don't need such a negative response and shouldn't be expected to drop everything and fix your problem. Please provide useful information and I am sure if it is a critical bug, it will be fixed in due time. Are you paying for support? or are you demanding things from volunteers? Would you treat providers of other services that you get such as Internet or Phone, etc. the same way? Best Regards, Todd Todd, I don't know who you are or what your involvement with Ubuntu is, but anyone who is involved in Ubuntu development (as Cory is) and has been on IRC in the last several hours is well aware of exactly what is wrong. None of those details are particularly needed. Cory's comment was a bit intemperate, but I feel your response was not at all helpful and that it really minimized Cory's extensive contributions to Ubuntu developmen. In theory who says something shouldn't affect how it gets responded to, but in real life it does. On a developer's list, I think people who are making substantial contributions should get a little slack. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: System Presence Integration Idea
On Wednesday 12 March 2008 17:38:54 Chris Warburton wrote: With the increased momentum towards unified messaging and presence systems (ie. Telepathy and things built on top such as Decibel) I think there needs to be some thought put into the use of presence by the system. That is, if the system can see the user's various presence attributes then it can infer actions to take (locking screen when Away for example), and likewise the user's actions can infer their presence (Away when screen locked). If integrated throughout the stack then this could be a very powerful, and as far as I know unique to Free Software, feature. To me such an idea would take 3 stages to implement: 1) Discussion and brainstorming of possible use cases throughout the system 2) Building the infrastructure needed to enable such cases (Dbus as far as I can tell) 3) Creation/modification of interfaces for users to control them I have written a spec[1] and blueprint[2] for stage 1, the discussion, which I think needs to be had (even if it results in rejection of the idea) and was wondering what people thought. I have also added it to the Ubuntu Brainstorm[3]. Thanks, Chris Warburton 1 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemPresenceIntegrationSpec 2 https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/system-presence-integration 3 http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/1650/ Great. I've been looking for a way to do this for a long time. I guess this will be a great addition to Hardy+1 ( Intrepid Ibex ). Just a new idea to join: have an option to reduce CPU/screen power to lower limits, saving energy when not in use, or the ability to start management tasks or seti-at-home alike apps. -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:29:16 +0100 Soren Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 02:00:03AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: Cory's comment was a bit intemperate, but I feel your response was not at all helpful and that it really minimized Cory's extensive contributions to Ubuntu developmen. But it's cool for Cory to flame doko because Cory's a developer? Interesting. No, not cool. I just didn't like the response. We all write things we shouldn't every now and then. It doesn't mean we need to have random strangers sending us form letters. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
Moins, Cory K. wrote: Soren Hansen wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 02:00:03AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: Cory's comment was a bit intemperate, but I feel your response was not at all helpful and that it really minimized Cory's extensive contributions to Ubuntu developmen. But it's cool for Cory to flame doko because Cory's a developer? Interesting. If you think that was a flame then I would say you're a tad sensitive. :P It comes down to why would a package be uploaded at this stage in the cycle that renders systems unbootable? The package is not at fault... The fault was to upload dpkg (2008-02-11 imho) with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistCompilerFlags this in mind. Setting those flags is not good without a bunch of testing. At least, we should have rebuilt the supported archive and generate an not official released test release, just for developers, to see if something breaks (which is usally the case). Actually, there is noone to blame/flame, but this upload, with such a little change, breaks more then just glibc. Fact, rebuilding the archive won't show any build failures, but running those rebuilt apps would have shown the evilness of this change. Carelessness? No, just normal developer business, new stuff is good...always ;) I could completely see if this were months ago but a day before beta freeze? 4 weeks 'till release? I do understand sh*t happens but something this major now shouldn't. Of course it has to happen, because without those happenings, noone would learn from it. For the future, this is a reference that even a bag of rice, which drops on the floor of a house, could break something somewhere I was mad. I'm human. I'm over it. Time to spend the day rebuilding 3 machines. ;) Repeat with us: You should not use Development Releases on production machines, until you know that it can break (badly) ! But you are a developer and you know that, and you can deal with it :) \sh -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 07:14:23AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: Cory's comment was a bit intemperate, but I feel your response was not at all helpful and that it really minimized Cory's extensive contributions to Ubuntu developmen. But it's cool for Cory to flame doko because Cory's a developer? Interesting. No, not cool. I just didn't like the response. We all write things we shouldn't every now and then. It doesn't mean we need to have random strangers sending us form letters. Ok, so Cory sends an e-mail to a public mailing list in an intemperate tone. Todd finds this inapproriate, and shares this feeling with Cory and the rest of us, in a tone this is the diametrically opposite of intemperate. And you decide to tell *Todd* off due to his tone, because Cory has done more work on Ubuntu than him? Well, as dholbach so nicely put it, if people are regular contributors to Ubuntu, they should be setting a good example, so if I were to tell one of Todd or Cory off, it'd most certainly be Cory. I would have done so, but Todd did it just fine, IMO, and applying your logic, since I've been a core-dev longer than you, my opinion is better than yours, right? -- Soren Hansen | Virtualisation specialist | Ubuntu Server Team Canonical Ltd. | http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 07:29:57AM -0400, Cory K. wrote: Cory's comment was a bit intemperate, but I feel your response was not at all helpful and that it really minimized Cory's extensive contributions to Ubuntu developmen. But it's cool for Cory to flame doko because Cory's a developer? Interesting. If you think that was a flame then I would say you're a tad sensitive. I'm sure you meant it as a helpful and friendly assessment of the quality of the work of one of our fellow developers../sarcasm It comes down to why would a package be uploaded at this stage in the cycle that renders systems unbootable? Remind me: At exactly which stage in the cycle is it appropriate to wilfully upload things to Ubuntu that renders systems unbootable? I could completely see if this were months ago but a day before beta freeze? 4 weeks 'till release? I do understand sh*t happens but something this major now shouldn't. I was mad. I'm human. I'm over it. Time to spend the day rebuilding 3 machines. ;) It's funny how your being human seems to excuse you from being pointlessly difficult towards others when they've exercised their humanity in an unfortunate way. -- Soren Hansen | Virtualisation specialist | Ubuntu Server Team Canonical Ltd. | http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
What is terranova?
/etc/hostname in daily hardy has terranova as hostname. why is that? What does it mean? by the way, why do I get this error: id: cannot find name for group ID 128 -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: What is terranova?
(``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: /etc/hostname in daily hardy has terranova as hostname. why is that? What does it mean? Many things, but it's one of the names of the buildds. As for why it's there...i've no idea. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 01:43:41PM +0100, Daniel Holbach wrote: https://launchpad.net/bugs/201673 has information about what happened and how to fix it. Semi-official workaround instructions will be added there too. Have a nice day, Daniel YAY Daniel - here's a hug for finally adding some *helpful* content to this discussion. A bug reference - just what Todd so nicely asked for!! And thanks to all the developers who got us this far, and who make things happen, and who try to learn from the past. Yeah, we're all human. Neal McBurnett http://mcburnett.org/neal/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
YAY Daniel - here's a hug for finally adding some *helpful* content to this discussion. A bug reference - just what Todd so nicely asked for!! BTW this is also a very good example of why LP should have a bypass (or whatever you want to name it) field/link. With the amount of comments, finding the bypasses get slightly more arduous. ..hggdh.. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
On Thursday 13 March 2008 08:31:59 Soren Hansen wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 07:14:23AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: Cory's comment was a bit intemperate, but I feel your response was not at all helpful and that it really minimized Cory's extensive contributions to Ubuntu developmen. But it's cool for Cory to flame doko because Cory's a developer? Interesting. No, not cool. I just didn't like the response. We all write things we shouldn't every now and then. It doesn't mean we need to have random strangers sending us form letters. Ok, so Cory sends an e-mail to a public mailing list in an intemperate tone. Todd finds this inapproriate, and shares this feeling with Cory and the rest of us, in a tone this is the diametrically opposite of intemperate. And you decide to tell *Todd* off due to his tone, because Cory has done more work on Ubuntu than him? Well, as dholbach so nicely put it, if people are regular contributors to Ubuntu, they should be setting a good example, so if I were to tell one of Todd or Cory off, it'd most certainly be Cory. I would have done so, but Todd did it just fine, IMO, and applying your logic, since I've been a core-dev longer than you, my opinion is better than yours, right? I've thought about this some more and I think I understand my negative reaction to Todd's mail better. The problem wasn't that he responded or that he's not a developer. What bothered me was that it sounded like a standard stock response. This is supposed to be Linux for human beings and I didn't feel like Todd's mail took into account the unique human things that would have caused Cory to write such a mail. Cory certainly should (IMO) have expressed his understandable frustration with the situation in a more positive/better way and it was appropriate of Todd to point that out (developer or not). I just wish he'd been less impersonal about it. Thanks for pushing back on my response. I learned something from it. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
P2P COMPUTING POWER IDEA
hello My idea is to have an Opereting system that sheres computing power. The idea is that whenever your computer will need computing power it will take it from all of the other computers over the internet with the same OS. this way, for example when you will need to render a movie 1000 computers will help you render it and the rendering will go as fast as your bandwidth allow it to go. because the connection over the internet is not fast enough to prosses small taskes (until it would be prossed and sent back, normal computer can prosses it faster) the O/S will use 2 types of computing power. 1. Local computing power; the computing power of your local computer. 2. P2P computing power; the online computing power, to process long tasks (ex; loading games, rendering etc...) the system will also have a ratio for computing power, exactly like emule or other P2P programs, to get a lot of computing power you will have to shere as well. this way big companies or lechers that needs lot's of computing power not to have it all the time and slow all the others down. that's the basic idea, I'm not a programmer and not a computer man as well so i don't know how to do it, or even if it's possible. but if it is, i'm sure that the Linux community can do it. Thank you. Oran P.S If it does help you in some level please email me for feedback. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked (and I stop testing)
I'm in the same boat as you Vincenzo. Kind of the last straw for myself also. Been trying for a while now to test and get fixes into Hardy so that the Thinkpad T61 whould work out of the box (pretty much perfectly). As this is they laptop I now use on a daily basis, and I was going to try and start average users on the same platform with Ubuntu. But there is an extreme problem with Ubuntu developers ignoring bugzilla and straight up breaking stuff. In all my bugzillas I try to include fixes, but even with fixes...no love. As of late there have been big regressions and it seems futile to file a bugzilla as it appears nobody is going to give it any attention. Lately Hardy has been so badly breaking, during a time when time where this shouldn't happen. I think Cory was dead on about libc though. How can this of all packages break now! I'm joining you to just going back to being a user for myself.. and stop having these lofty ideas that things can work perfectly. On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:03 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Il giorno mer, 12/03/2008 alle 23.20 -0400, Cory K. ha scritto: Thanx to the genius who let the libc update through and rendered 3 systems unbootable here. I look forward to your visit to my home to fix them. Frustrated and pissed, Cory K. Even though the tone of the mail is angry, it's really bad that things like this libc update happen - I personally don't understand how this is possible at all, if developers test their packages. A revert system after upgrade mode should be designed and implemented to the benefit of testers (unionfs plus a commit operation to the main filesystem seems to me like an implementable solution). Would not be efficient but would be a bit safer - you already have unionfs in the livecd so you have some expertise. I am sad to say that my hardy testing experience stops here - I wanted to make my experience as a free software user, and as a developer, available to ubuntu community as a form of payment for such a good distribution. Problem is not the libc bug by itself of course. If you want to know read below - but it's not necessary at all. Problem is that I should waste hours fixing the libc bug, and I am doing this just to let the world benefit from fixes I can already install and hack up locally on my pc. The balance between costs and benefits is dropping down too quick. Many regressions I've personally been trying to help sorting out have a fix, signaled by one of the testers (usually not me since I am not that smart, but I usually took the time to test the fix and reported) and the fix is not being applied, and developers are waiting for *users* to UVFE. I am more and more being convinced that testing new ubuntu is a complete waste of time for me. The main point that, to my eyes, the ubuntu upload-enabled community seems not to be understanding, is that one should try to re-use people's expertise. You can't ask a person that already can debug a kernel module to also learn to package debs and all the ubuntu burocracy. That's a problem of developers. If you have a clever user (I am *not* talking about me :) ) that provides a fix and explains how he/she got there, you can't ask for more. You are the developer, you have the expertise to fix bugs in ubuntu, the tester provided the fix, having the expertise to test it, why not joining forces? personal story follows, the main point of the e-mail is what you already read Next LTS won't have proper support for my tablet. I surrender. It's two years I have been waiting the day I can advice ubuntu to people who have the same laptop as mine, and still nobody cares. Next year I will have to return this laptop to university, and I'll perhaps buy a different tablet. With different problems. And I've never seen ubuntu working out of the box there - even though there always was a well-known and signaled to developers way to make it work. I've seen things stopping working, nobody cared in the world. For example, my sd card reader worked in edgy and will never work in any future ubuntu release. I opened a bug *during feisty beta* - it used to work in some feisty alpha but don't know which one, then it was marked as duplicate of another bug, which after months was fixed and was not a dupe of mine, I then had to reopen a new bug, and *nobody cared anymore*. Don't bull*hit on me. The problem I am pointing out is real. There is a regression from previous releases and nobody cares, because few users have it. But that's a regression. Ok, few users have it because the vaste majority of tablet users don't even consider the crazy idea of running that hacky linux on it. Accept this and if and when ubuntu will work on tablets really out of the box, you'll see how many users are affected by such regressions. I've followed bug reports, provided requested information, tried to
Re: P2P COMPUTING POWER IDEA
Vincenzo Ciancia pisze: My idea is to have an Opereting system that sheres computing power. The idea is that whenever your computer will need computing power it will take it from all of the other computers over the internet with the same OS. this way, for example when you will need to render a movie 1000 computers will help you render it and the rendering will go as fast as your bandwidth allow it to go. There are lots of similar projects, one of the most famous ones being boinc - see What he meant is grid computing. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing Boinc is a specific example of a grid. -- ## Przemysław Kulczycki Azrael Nightwalker ## # jabber: azrael[na]jabster.pl | tlen: azrael29a # ### www: http://reksio.ftj.agh.edu.pl/~azrael/ ### signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:13:03AM -0500, HggdH wrote: BTW this is also a very good example of why LP should have a bypass (or whatever you want to name it) field/link. With the amount of comments, finding the bypasses get slightly more arduous. You mean workaround? The appropriate place for that is the bug description, and shortly after you sent your mail I completed local testing of some workarounds and edited the bug description to document these. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: What is terranova?
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 09:14:00AM +, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: /etc/hostname in daily hardy has terranova as hostname. why is that? What does it mean? I assume you're using a live CD. This is just the hostname of the build daemon machine that built the live filesystem; it's left there because it's as good as any other. If you install the live CD, then you'll find that /etc/hostname has been populated with the hostname you supply during the installer. by the way, why do I get this error: id: cannot find name for group ID 128 What are you doing when you encounter this error? -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:20:22PM -0400, Cory K. wrote: Thanx to the genius who let the libc update through and rendered 3 systems unbootable here. I look forward to your visit to my home to fix them. I've posted a message to ubuntu-devel-announce with full workaround instructions, which you should be able to apply to your broken systems given at most a Hardy desktop CD; in some circumstances you may be able to do it without that. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-March/000401.html This was, of course, treated as absolute top priority for the members of the Ubuntu team involved in the cleanup process. I don't think it's productive to point fingers, as there were various failings involved. We're doing a full analysis of the incident and I expect that we'll make some changes as a result. Thanks, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:55:47PM +0100, Stephan Hermann wrote: The package is not at fault... The fault was to upload dpkg (2008-02-11 imho) with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistCompilerFlags this in mind. Setting those flags is not good without a bunch of testing. I only discovered today that wine broke a few weeks ago due to this change, and that you applied the same kind of fix to wine last week as has since been applied to glibc. I'm curious whether you escalated this anywhere at the time, and if so where? If it was escalated but not dealt with, that's something we should look at too. Fact, rebuilding the archive won't show any build failures, but running those rebuilt apps would have shown the evilness of this change. Rebuilding the archive against the output of the rebuild in progress would have shown it up very quickly; note that glibc 2.7-9ubuntu2 itself failed to build (without hand-holding) due to upgrading to libc6 2.7-9ubuntu1 at the start of the build, and many packages would have failed in the same way. I was mad. I'm human. I'm over it. Time to spend the day rebuilding 3 machines. ;) Repeat with us: You should not use Development Releases on production machines, until you know that it can break (badly) ! This is definitely worth noting, but it's also clearly true that breakage should be minimised where possible. This is a reminder that the fact that development releases are generally not actually all that bad doesn't mean that they'll never break spectacularly, while also serving as a demonstration of various problems in our processes. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: System Presence Integration Idea
On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 17:38 +, Chris Warburton wrote: To me such an idea would take 3 stages to implement: 1) Discussion and brainstorming of possible use cases throughout the system 2) Building the infrastructure needed to enable such cases (Dbus as far as I can tell) 3) Creation/modification of interfaces for users to control them I think that this is an interesting topic, and one that we do need to solve for the desktop. I think that one thing that needs to be in your list, 1a perhaps, is looking at the way that people think about their status. For instance, when I'm at work I really don't want my buddies sending me pictures from the party over the weekend. But, e-mail from my boss probably had less importance while I was at those parties. I know that in the spec you mentioned gathering such information from the WiFi hotspot being used, which is interesting. I'm curious if that is enough. Also, how much configurability would someone want? Status on every IM network for every hotspot seems like a crazy matrix. --Ted -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: System Presence Integration Idea
On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 12:07 -0700, Ted Gould wrote: I think that this is an interesting topic, and one that we do need to solve for the desktop. I think that one thing that needs to be in your list, 1a perhaps, is looking at the way that people think about their status. For instance, when I'm at work I really don't want my buddies sending me pictures from the party over the weekend. But, e-mail from my boss probably had less importance while I was at those parties. I know that in the spec you mentioned gathering such information from the WiFi hotspot being used, which is interesting. I'm curious if that is enough. Also, how much configurability would someone want? Status on every IM network for every hotspot seems like a crazy matrix. --Ted Hi thanks for the input. I realise that such a proposal is quite open ended, thus I tried to split it into relatively clear steps to go through to try and prevent both blue sky designing and worrying about issues that end up not appearing in the implementation. I think stage 1, the discussion, should be a quite technical discussion, ie. throw some ideas into the aether and decide which of those is possible. My own train of thought was about having Telepathy running as a central, standard system to use for presence. Presence would cover general key:value type data, ie. Location:Home, Status:Busy, Activity:On The Phone, etc. (those are just examples). There may need to be an agreed upon standard for the naming here, if multiple programs and desktop environments are going to use it. The model for broadcast of these would be, I would think, XMPP's Publish/Subscribe system (I've heard good things about it, but haven't used it personally). For other networks it could perhaps fall back to a generic status message containing the pairs. What I think is the most interesting aspect is using presence locally, ie. having a way to tell your computer what you're up to and configuring it to take some actions based on that. Local presence can be taken straight from Telepathy itself or a local account inside Telepathy, thus legacy network issues aren't too important for this. In terms of UI I think everything should be opt-in, so the Wifi example I gave would have a user explicitly saying this Wifi network means Home and this Wifi network means School and then the machine only acts when those two are detected. A lot of the possibilities this could enable may be annoying to have on by default, so I think options should be opt-in to begin with. These UI issues are the 3rd stage I proposed though, and I imagine will mainly consist of a few widgets added to some already existing preference dialogues. Thanks, Chris -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Hardy Alpha 6 released
Hi Martin, On Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 08:05:56PM -0500, Martin L'Ecuyer wrote: Hello Steve, I'm not sure you are the person who I should report this but since I downloaded the .iso using the link from your e-mail I thought I should report it to someone. ( Since this is just a beta version, I was expecting some bugs, I'm not disappointed...I just wanted to share the info) When I start from the cd I just burned, The startup menu shows-up and without doing anything the language selection menu opens-up. After selecting a Language ( or just pressing enter to select the english default language), the start up menu appears. This is not a bug, but a deliberate design decision. This is done to ensure that the user does not have to navigate any menus in a language they don't understand in order to reach the selection screen where they can pick their own language. After, when it try to open a live session or try to install on disk, it freeze for a wile and then ask for reboot. I assume it might have something to do with my configuration...I'll wait for the official release...It will probably be o.k. I you want more details and think it could help other people ...let me know. I would strongly encourage you to file a bug report about this issue, using https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu. There's really no guarantee that anyone else who's currently testing has encountered this same error, so the best way to get it fixed for the official release is to make sure yourself that it's reported. Cheers, -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: P2P computing power idea
Am 13.03.2008 um 17:39 schrieb Oran B. Kamelgarn: My idea is to have an Opereting system that sheres computing power. You perhaps want to have a look for the DragonflyBSD OS. They work towards getting grid computing into the OS, removing the need for grid-specialized software. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: System Presence Integration Idea
Chris Warburton wrote: Hi thanks for the input. I realise that such a proposal is quite open ended, thus I tried to split it into relatively clear steps to go through to try and prevent both blue sky designing and worrying about issues that end up not appearing in the implementation. I think stage 1, the discussion, should be a quite technical discussion, ie. throw some ideas into the aether and decide which of those is possible. My own train of thought was about having Telepathy running as a central, standard system to use for presence. Presence would cover general key:value type data, ie. Location:Home, Status:Busy, Activity:On The Phone, etc. (those are just examples). There may need to be an agreed upon standard for the naming here, if multiple programs and desktop environments are going to use it. IMHO what you need is a central daemon that only performs a few actions and communicated via D-BUS. You just have to set a D-BUS protocol so that programs can set/get the state: Telepathy can set it, but also retreive it when starting - this way the daemon can test some system parameters and decide of a certain state automatically depending on the network, on the battery... Maybe gnome-session could be the place to do so. And network settings has a profile management that you could integrate. Just ideas... Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked
*[quote]HARDY HERON SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR YOUR DESKTOP UNTIL IT IS RELEASED IN APRIL 2008* If you decide to use Hardy Heron now, then you are doing so at your own risk, and with the risk of major breakage and possible data loss.[/quote] Cory, hardy is alpha software.There is always going to be breakages, otherwise it would defeat the point of a dev os.Running 3 comps on hardy isnt very sensible even running hardy on a system that has any data that you need isnt a good idea. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Hardy Alpha 6 released
Hi, I was also scared the first time when this chaotic listing of languages popped up in front of me. I realize that this is a feature, but I really felt it overwhelming, and it scared me. Wouldn't it be possible to give it a nicer design in line with the boot screen? (If a non-programmer, non-designer like me can help in it, just tell me what! :) ) Cheers, V On 13/03/2008, Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Martin, On Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 08:05:56PM -0500, Martin L'Ecuyer wrote: Hello Steve, I'm not sure you are the person who I should report this but since I downloaded the .iso using the link from your e-mail I thought I should report it to someone. ( Since this is just a beta version, I was expecting some bugs, I'm not disappointed...I just wanted to share the info) When I start from the cd I just burned, The startup menu shows-up and without doing anything the language selection menu opens-up. After selecting a Language ( or just pressing enter to select the english default language), the start up menu appears. This is not a bug, but a deliberate design decision. This is done to ensure that the user does not have to navigate any menus in a language they don't understand in order to reach the selection screen where they can pick their own language. After, when it try to open a live session or try to install on disk, it freeze for a wile and then ask for reboot. I assume it might have something to do with my configuration...I'll wait for the official release...It will probably be o.k. I you want more details and think it could help other people ...let me know. I would strongly encourage you to file a bug report about this issue, using https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu. There's really no guarantee that anyone else who's currently testing has encountered this same error, so the best way to get it fixed for the official release is to make sure yourself that it's reported. Cheers, -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Bug and discussion about ubuntu menu
Dear developers, I am working on a bug on Launchpad https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/174277 and I suddenly though that I might ask here if the effort I am doing are worthy ( I wouldn't like to work a lot on this bug and have my patches refused :-) ) . So could you please have a look at this bug and the discussion on brainstorm, then my propositions and make some comments ? I am not MOTU but this bug is for a step for me on the road of MOTU :-) . So I would take also comments on the way I managed the bug. ;-) Best regards Aziz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked (and I stop testing)
On Thursday 13 March 2008 08:03:32 Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno mer, 12/03/2008 alle 23.20 -0400, Cory K. ha scritto: Thanx to the genius who let the libc update through and rendered 3 systems unbootable here. I look forward to your visit to my home to fix them. Frustrated and pissed, Cory K. Even though the tone of the mail is angry, it's really bad that things like this libc update happen - I personally don't understand how this is possible at all, if developers test their packages. I've uploaded stuff that turned out to be broken. There are many possible reasons for this. It's not feasible to do full regression testing for every upload. Not just due to time, but because of the wide range of hardware used for Ubuntu. A revert system after upgrade mode should be designed and implemented to the benefit of testers (unionfs plus a commit operation to the main filesystem seems to me like an implementable solution). Would not be efficient but would be a bit safer - you already have unionfs in the livecd so you have some expertise. This is the sort of thing that should be proposed as a specification and decided on at UDS. It sounds like a nice idea. I'm not qualified to have an opinion on how feasible it is. I am sad to say that my hardy testing experience stops here - I wanted to make my experience as a free software user, and as a developer, available to ubuntu community as a form of payment for such a good distribution. Problem is not the libc bug by itself of course. If you want to know read below - but it's not necessary at all. Problem is that I should waste hours fixing the libc bug, and I am doing this just to let the world benefit from fixes I can already install and hack up locally on my pc. The balance between costs and benefits is dropping down too quick. Many regressions I've personally been trying to help sorting out have a fix, signaled by one of the testers (usually not me since I am not that smart, but I usually took the time to test the fix and reported) and the fix is not being applied, and developers are waiting for *users* to UVFE. I am more and more being convinced that testing new ubuntu is a complete waste of time for me. I've found just the opposite. I've found as I got more and more involved in first testing and then development I've been able to get more and more of my personal pain points dealt with. Also, keep in mind that most developers are volunteers. Volunteer work gets done on the basis of interest. If a user wants a problem solved, I've got neither the time nor interest in being their personal UVFe (now FFe) writer. I'm glad to help them figure out how to do it, but I'm fully busy working on the problems that I'm trying to solve. The main point that, to my eyes, the ubuntu upload-enabled community seems not to be understanding, is that one should try to re-use people's expertise. You can't ask a person that already can debug a kernel module to also learn to package debs and all the ubuntu burocracy. That's a problem of developers. If you have a clever user (I am *not* talking about me :) ) that provides a fix and explains how he/she got there, you can't ask for more. You are the developer, you have the expertise to fix bugs in ubuntu, the tester provided the fix, having the expertise to test it, why not joining forces? This is certainly ideal, but it's not like the developer is sitting around waiting for more to work on. What we need are more people working on all levels of the problem. It is a general case that we could use more people who know packaging working on packaging up available fixes. I think there have been some recent initiatives to encourage this. personal story follows, the main point of the e-mail is what you already read Next LTS won't have proper support for my tablet. I surrender. It's two years I have been waiting the day I can advice ubuntu to people who have the same laptop as mine, and still nobody cares. Next year I will have to return this laptop to university, and I'll perhaps buy a different tablet. With different problems. And I've never seen ubuntu working out of the box there - even though there always was a well-known and signaled to developers way to make it work. I've seen things stopping working, nobody cared in the world. For example, my sd card reader worked in edgy and will never work in any future ubuntu release. I opened a bug *during feisty beta* - it used to work in some feisty alpha but don't know which one, then it was marked as duplicate of another bug, which after months was fixed and was not a dupe of mine, I then had to reopen a new bug, and *nobody cared anymore*. Don't bull*hit on me. The problem I am pointing out is real. There is a regression from previous releases and nobody cares, because few users have it. But that's a regression. Ok, few users have it because the vaste majority of tablet users don't even
