Re: Can we include HWE in the release version?

[Bryan Quigley]

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 5:52 PM, John Johansen
 wrote:
> On 04/06/2016 02:32 PM, Dimitri John Ledkov wrote:
>> On 6 April 2016 at 22:25, Xen  wrote:
>>> Bryan Quigley schreef op 06-04-16 22:35:
 Hi all,

 The naming scheme of just  "Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS" is no longer
 meaningful when it comes to determining what kernel/mesa/xorg you are
 on.   It's also confusing to many users what 14.04.4 actually means
 and it makes determining if you are supported more difficult [1].

 I propose for 16.04 we change it so that the HWE# is included in the
 version, so it's trivial to determine the support level.

 So for example, if we had done this for 14.04 we would have releases like:
 Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS - Everyone up-to-date with stock kernel
 Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS HWE15.04 - Out of date with vivid kernel
 Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE15.04 - Up-to-date with vivid kernel
>>>
>>> Personally I feel that naming scheme is hideous and will confuse even
>>> more people.
>>>
>>> What does HWE even mean? I can look it up, but it is not like it is some
>>> kind of well known acronym or abbreviation.
>>>
>>> (The way I understood it these point releases indeed brought new kernels
>>> in addition to something else. The confusion that I experienced was more
>>> the weird focus on end-of-support dates that was different for every
>>> point release, creating tiers of support that utterly confused me,
>>> particularly because the context with other (newer) versions of the
>>> distribution was not clear. The idea of point releases bringing new
>>> kernels and that "HWE" is not confusing at all. However, if this
>>> dramatically is going to change "end of support" dates, then suddenly it
>>> is not comprehensible anymore --- did it mean that a getting point
>>> release meant less support?
>>>
>>> What I remember is that the point releases had less support, which is
>>> not understandable because they are newer systems.
>>>
>>> Also if a point release actually means newer versions of all software
>>> this is confusing by itself. Creating the ability for new hardware is
>>> easy to understand. But if repos for .3 and .4 are going to be entirely
>>> different, and now you are going to create 2 dimensions: currency of
>>> software, and currency of kernel/HWE and you can mix them at will: that
>>> is not helpful.
>>>
>>> So I would suggest the confusion did not come from the naming scheme.
>>> The confusion came from the fact that these varying levels of support
>>> were incomprehensible. If anything upgrading to a newer kernel should be
>>> recommended and encouraged for the largest part and if anything that
>>> should give the benefit of longer support -- since you are up to date
>>> now, right?
>>>
>>> The fact that 14.04.1 is listed at end of life april 2019 and 14.04.2 is
>>> listed at august 2016 is just utterly confusing. Changing the naming is
>>> not going to help that.
>>>
>>> If these two components have different EOL you can just say so, I'm not
>>> sure if that is the case.
>>>
>>> So if you wanted some thoughts, my thought is that your proposal here
>>> would increase the confusion while not tackling the real issue.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>
>> LTS has 5 years of support.
>>
>> There are multiple kernels available with full 5 year support:
>> - original (from .0 original release & .1 release)
>> - next-lts (from a .5 point release)
>>
>> Intermediate releases backports:
>> - Available in .2; .3; .4
>> - Supported until .5 release which comes with next-LTS kernel
>> - Upgrade path is to the next LTS release, or to the .5 HWE stack
>>
>> We do send EOL announcements for the HWE kernels. I do not believe we
>> automatically upgrade people from them to the .5 / next-LTS kernel,
>> maybe we should. (or i am wrong, and we totally do it).
>> However in practice, people who use/care about HWE kernels upgrade to
>> the next HWE stack and/or next LTS release quite rapidly.
>>
>
> For those who opt-in sure, but there are people who buy machines with
> a point release installed. I don't think we can make that assumption
> for them.

My understanding is that in that specific case the cert team has some
sort of flag that enables them to proceed to the next-lts kernel when
the new certification completes.   But it's still a general issue.

Kind regards,
Bryan

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Re: Can we include HWE in the release version?

[Bryan Quigley]

> I am not sure what problem you are trying to fix.

I want the version of Ubuntu to actually mean what version of
essential software I should expect.

I want "14.04.4 LTS" to mean the exact same thing on the download page
as it does in /etc/lsb-release.

> First of all point releases are only installation media, and not the
> packages archive.

But we do bump the version string in the package archive.

>
> We do provide installation media for past point releases, each one
> with different HWE packs on them. These are all available for download
> and installation from.
>
> In general, we do not move people to next HWE stack, it's a manual
> action until upgrade to next LTS. And from packages archive point of
> view, they are all supported and available from the
> archive.ubuntu.com.
>
> We do not provide snapshot archives for point releases, thus it is
> simply a matter off "did you dist-upgrade to everything that's
> available in -security & -updates", regardless of the HWE stack one is
> running.
>
> All stacks are supported, and in theory, from any stack one should be
> able to dist-upgrade to the next LTS and get the new stock kernel. I
> do not believe we roll people from one HWE to the next within an LTS
> release, so it is simply a mater of which installation media was used,
> and/or which HWE packs one chose to install afterwords.
>
> For trusty, the intermediate hwe stacks will go out of support, after
> 16.04.1 is released and thus LTS -> LTS upgrades enabled, and the
> expectation there is for people to upgrade to 16.04.1, and most people
> will / do.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Dimitri.

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Re: Can we include HWE in the release version?

[John Johansen]

On 04/06/2016 02:32 PM, Dimitri John Ledkov wrote:
> On 6 April 2016 at 22:25, Xen  wrote:
>> Bryan Quigley schreef op 06-04-16 22:35:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> The naming scheme of just  "Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS" is no longer
>>> meaningful when it comes to determining what kernel/mesa/xorg you are
>>> on.   It's also confusing to many users what 14.04.4 actually means
>>> and it makes determining if you are supported more difficult [1].
>>>
>>> I propose for 16.04 we change it so that the HWE# is included in the
>>> version, so it's trivial to determine the support level.
>>>
>>> So for example, if we had done this for 14.04 we would have releases like:
>>> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS - Everyone up-to-date with stock kernel
>>> Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS HWE15.04 - Out of date with vivid kernel
>>> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE15.04 - Up-to-date with vivid kernel
>>
>> Personally I feel that naming scheme is hideous and will confuse even
>> more people.
>>
>> What does HWE even mean? I can look it up, but it is not like it is some
>> kind of well known acronym or abbreviation.
>>
>> (The way I understood it these point releases indeed brought new kernels
>> in addition to something else. The confusion that I experienced was more
>> the weird focus on end-of-support dates that was different for every
>> point release, creating tiers of support that utterly confused me,
>> particularly because the context with other (newer) versions of the
>> distribution was not clear. The idea of point releases bringing new
>> kernels and that "HWE" is not confusing at all. However, if this
>> dramatically is going to change "end of support" dates, then suddenly it
>> is not comprehensible anymore --- did it mean that a getting point
>> release meant less support?
>>
>> What I remember is that the point releases had less support, which is
>> not understandable because they are newer systems.
>>
>> Also if a point release actually means newer versions of all software
>> this is confusing by itself. Creating the ability for new hardware is
>> easy to understand. But if repos for .3 and .4 are going to be entirely
>> different, and now you are going to create 2 dimensions: currency of
>> software, and currency of kernel/HWE and you can mix them at will: that
>> is not helpful.
>>
>> So I would suggest the confusion did not come from the naming scheme.
>> The confusion came from the fact that these varying levels of support
>> were incomprehensible. If anything upgrading to a newer kernel should be
>> recommended and encouraged for the largest part and if anything that
>> should give the benefit of longer support -- since you are up to date
>> now, right?
>>
>> The fact that 14.04.1 is listed at end of life april 2019 and 14.04.2 is
>> listed at august 2016 is just utterly confusing. Changing the naming is
>> not going to help that.
>>
>> If these two components have different EOL you can just say so, I'm not
>> sure if that is the case.
>>
>> So if you wanted some thoughts, my thought is that your proposal here
>> would increase the confusion while not tackling the real issue.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
> 
> LTS has 5 years of support.
> 
> There are multiple kernels available with full 5 year support:
> - original (from .0 original release & .1 release)
> - next-lts (from a .5 point release)
> 
> Intermediate releases backports:
> - Available in .2; .3; .4
> - Supported until .5 release which comes with next-LTS kernel
> - Upgrade path is to the next LTS release, or to the .5 HWE stack
> 
> We do send EOL announcements for the HWE kernels. I do not believe we
> automatically upgrade people from them to the .5 / next-LTS kernel,
> maybe we should. (or i am wrong, and we totally do it).
> However in practice, people who use/care about HWE kernels upgrade to
> the next HWE stack and/or next LTS release quite rapidly.
> 

For those who opt-in sure, but there are people who buy machines with
a point release installed. I don't think we can make that assumption
for them.


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Re: Can we include HWE in the release version?

[Dimitri John Ledkov]

On 6 April 2016 at 22:25, Xen  wrote:
> Bryan Quigley schreef op 06-04-16 22:35:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> The naming scheme of just  "Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS" is no longer
>> meaningful when it comes to determining what kernel/mesa/xorg you are
>> on.   It's also confusing to many users what 14.04.4 actually means
>> and it makes determining if you are supported more difficult [1].
>>
>> I propose for 16.04 we change it so that the HWE# is included in the
>> version, so it's trivial to determine the support level.
>>
>> So for example, if we had done this for 14.04 we would have releases like:
>> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS - Everyone up-to-date with stock kernel
>> Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS HWE15.04 - Out of date with vivid kernel
>> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE15.04 - Up-to-date with vivid kernel
>
> Personally I feel that naming scheme is hideous and will confuse even
> more people.
>
> What does HWE even mean? I can look it up, but it is not like it is some
> kind of well known acronym or abbreviation.
>
> (The way I understood it these point releases indeed brought new kernels
> in addition to something else. The confusion that I experienced was more
> the weird focus on end-of-support dates that was different for every
> point release, creating tiers of support that utterly confused me,
> particularly because the context with other (newer) versions of the
> distribution was not clear. The idea of point releases bringing new
> kernels and that "HWE" is not confusing at all. However, if this
> dramatically is going to change "end of support" dates, then suddenly it
> is not comprehensible anymore --- did it mean that a getting point
> release meant less support?
>
> What I remember is that the point releases had less support, which is
> not understandable because they are newer systems.
>
> Also if a point release actually means newer versions of all software
> this is confusing by itself. Creating the ability for new hardware is
> easy to understand. But if repos for .3 and .4 are going to be entirely
> different, and now you are going to create 2 dimensions: currency of
> software, and currency of kernel/HWE and you can mix them at will: that
> is not helpful.
>
> So I would suggest the confusion did not come from the naming scheme.
> The confusion came from the fact that these varying levels of support
> were incomprehensible. If anything upgrading to a newer kernel should be
> recommended and encouraged for the largest part and if anything that
> should give the benefit of longer support -- since you are up to date
> now, right?
>
> The fact that 14.04.1 is listed at end of life april 2019 and 14.04.2 is
> listed at august 2016 is just utterly confusing. Changing the naming is
> not going to help that.
>
> If these two components have different EOL you can just say so, I'm not
> sure if that is the case.
>
> So if you wanted some thoughts, my thought is that your proposal here
> would increase the confusion while not tackling the real issue.
>
> Regards.
>

LTS has 5 years of support.

There are multiple kernels available with full 5 year support:
- original (from .0 original release & .1 release)
- next-lts (from a .5 point release)

Intermediate releases backports:
- Available in .2; .3; .4
- Supported until .5 release which comes with next-LTS kernel
- Upgrade path is to the next LTS release, or to the .5 HWE stack

We do send EOL announcements for the HWE kernels. I do not believe we
automatically upgrade people from them to the .5 / next-LTS kernel,
maybe we should. (or i am wrong, and we totally do it).
However in practice, people who use/care about HWE kernels upgrade to
the next HWE stack and/or next LTS release quite rapidly.

Regards,

Dimitri.


>
>
>> etc
>>
>> This does mean we could decide to provide downloads for both (we do
>> have some demand for this):
>> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS (Stock kernel)
>> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE1510 (Wily HWE)
>>
>> And now we can differentiate between them in the same way on the
>> download site as in an installed system.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>> Bryan
>>
>> [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/1204_HWE_EOL
>> [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
>>
>
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Dimitri.

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Re: Can we include HWE in the release version?

[Dimitri John Ledkov]

On 6 April 2016 at 21:35, Bryan Quigley  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The naming scheme of just  "Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS" is no longer
> meaningful when it comes to determining what kernel/mesa/xorg you are
> on.   It's also confusing to many users what 14.04.4 actually means
> and it makes determining if you are supported more difficult [1].
>
> I propose for 16.04 we change it so that the HWE# is included in the
> version, so it's trivial to determine the support level.
>
> So for example, if we had done this for 14.04 we would have releases like:
> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS - Everyone up-to-date with stock kernel
> Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS HWE15.04 - Out of date with vivid kernel
> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE15.04 - Up-to-date with vivid kernel
> etc
>
> This does mean we could decide to provide downloads for both (we do
> have some demand for this):
> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS (Stock kernel)
> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE1510 (Wily HWE)
>
> And now we can differentiate between them in the same way on the
> download site as in an installed system.
>

I am not sure what problem you are trying to fix.

First of all point releases are only installation media, and not the
packages archive.

We do provide installation media for past point releases, each one
with different HWE packs on them. These are all available for download
and installation from.

In general, we do not move people to next HWE stack, it's a manual
action until upgrade to next LTS. And from packages archive point of
view, they are all supported and available from the
archive.ubuntu.com.

We do not provide snapshot archives for point releases, thus it is
simply a matter off "did you dist-upgrade to everything that's
available in -security & -updates", regardless of the HWE stack one is
running.

All stacks are supported, and in theory, from any stack one should be
able to dist-upgrade to the next LTS and get the new stock kernel. I
do not believe we roll people from one HWE to the next within an LTS
release, so it is simply a mater of which installation media was used,
and/or which HWE packs one chose to install afterwords.

For trusty, the intermediate hwe stacks will go out of support, after
16.04.1 is released and thus LTS -> LTS upgrades enabled, and the
expectation there is for people to upgrade to 16.04.1, and most people
will / do.

--
Regards,

Dimitri.

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Re: Can we include HWE in the release version?

[Xen]

Bryan Quigley schreef op 06-04-16 22:35:
> Hi all,
> 
> The naming scheme of just  "Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS" is no longer
> meaningful when it comes to determining what kernel/mesa/xorg you are
> on.   It's also confusing to many users what 14.04.4 actually means
> and it makes determining if you are supported more difficult [1].
> 
> I propose for 16.04 we change it so that the HWE# is included in the
> version, so it's trivial to determine the support level.
> 
> So for example, if we had done this for 14.04 we would have releases like:
> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS - Everyone up-to-date with stock kernel
> Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS HWE15.04 - Out of date with vivid kernel
> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE15.04 - Up-to-date with vivid kernel

Personally I feel that naming scheme is hideous and will confuse even
more people.

What does HWE even mean? I can look it up, but it is not like it is some
kind of well known acronym or abbreviation.

(The way I understood it these point releases indeed brought new kernels
in addition to something else. The confusion that I experienced was more
the weird focus on end-of-support dates that was different for every
point release, creating tiers of support that utterly confused me,
particularly because the context with other (newer) versions of the
distribution was not clear. The idea of point releases bringing new
kernels and that "HWE" is not confusing at all. However, if this
dramatically is going to change "end of support" dates, then suddenly it
is not comprehensible anymore --- did it mean that a getting point
release meant less support?

What I remember is that the point releases had less support, which is
not understandable because they are newer systems.

Also if a point release actually means newer versions of all software
this is confusing by itself. Creating the ability for new hardware is
easy to understand. But if repos for .3 and .4 are going to be entirely
different, and now you are going to create 2 dimensions: currency of
software, and currency of kernel/HWE and you can mix them at will: that
is not helpful.

So I would suggest the confusion did not come from the naming scheme.
The confusion came from the fact that these varying levels of support
were incomprehensible. If anything upgrading to a newer kernel should be
recommended and encouraged for the largest part and if anything that
should give the benefit of longer support -- since you are up to date
now, right?

The fact that 14.04.1 is listed at end of life april 2019 and 14.04.2 is
listed at august 2016 is just utterly confusing. Changing the naming is
not going to help that.

If these two components have different EOL you can just say so, I'm not
sure if that is the case.

So if you wanted some thoughts, my thought is that your proposal here
would increase the confusion while not tackling the real issue.

Regards.



> etc
> 
> This does mean we could decide to provide downloads for both (we do
> have some demand for this):
> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS (Stock kernel)
> Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE1510 (Wily HWE)
> 
> And now we can differentiate between them in the same way on the
> download site as in an installed system.
> 
> Thoughts?
> Bryan
> 
> [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/1204_HWE_EOL
> [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
> 

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Can we include HWE in the release version?

[Bryan Quigley]

Hi all,

The naming scheme of just  "Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS" is no longer
meaningful when it comes to determining what kernel/mesa/xorg you are
on.   It's also confusing to many users what 14.04.4 actually means
and it makes determining if you are supported more difficult [1].

I propose for 16.04 we change it so that the HWE# is included in the
version, so it's trivial to determine the support level.

So for example, if we had done this for 14.04 we would have releases like:
Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS - Everyone up-to-date with stock kernel
Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS HWE15.04 - Out of date with vivid kernel
Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE15.04 - Up-to-date with vivid kernel
etc

This does mean we could decide to provide downloads for both (we do
have some demand for this):
Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS (Stock kernel)
Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS HWE1510 (Wily HWE)

And now we can differentiate between them in the same way on the
download site as in an installed system.

Thoughts?
Bryan

[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/1204_HWE_EOL
[2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

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