Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
See Thread at: http://www.techienuggets.com/Detail?tx=34200 Posted on behalf of a User > In Ubuntu Studio we have a wrapper script around jackd to stop Pulse for > JACK and restart it once done. This is what most users have wanted based > on feedback. Where do I find this wrapper script? I use ubuntu studio hardy on amd64, and am just starting to play with jack, ardour, hydrogen, and the constellation of stuff out there. so far it seems that i have to kill pulseaudio from the command line (ps thru grep to find then kill via pid); start ardour, jack, et al, and when done I seem to have to LOG OUT and BACK IN to get pulse audio back. Yech. Not to mention the whole log on/off processes take way too long to begin with. This script sounds like a headache saver; how do I get it and use it? Thanks in advance, Tim In Response To: Hi! I had a problem with ardour/jack/pulseaudio in Ubuntu Hardy and I was told to take it to the mailing list. I cc'd parties that may be interested. Please ignore this mail if you are not. The related bugs in Launchpad are: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ardour/+bug/220576 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/214256 The problem is that ardour as installed by "aptitude install ardour" doesn't work. Recording is possible but playback doesn't work. I was able to resolve the issue by manually starting jack with "jackd -d alsa". My only concern is a working ardour after installing. For me it is extremely annoying to have manually fiddling with jackd. I also do not care about latency or similar stuff. I also imagine a new user (read composer/musician) to linux who immediately returns to windows after playback in ardour doesn't work. Also it is not possible to use for example mplayer and ardour at the same time. I was told that configuration of jack is a non-trivial thing to do because a professional user normally has a second sound card and jack has to be configured to use that (professional) equipment. My opinion is that it should be possible to provide a _default_ configuration where jackd connects to pulseaudio (this is what module-jack-source is for, right?). Let me repeat my two concerns: 1. Ardour in Ubuntu Hardy doesn't work out of the box 2. It is not possible to use mplayer and ardour at the same time I believe it is possible manually fix this up but I have still the opinion that it should be possible to provide a simple default configuration. So please convince me that I'm wrong (and it isn't possible to have a working ardour on a notebook) or tell me how this can be resolved. You put so much hard work into ardour/jack/pulseaudio that it should not fail because of a small configuration mistake. Thanks for your work/ideas/help, Gonz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
Hi, > First point, consider that it is not possible to run Pro-Tools, > Logic, or even easier application like Tracktion without a bit of > tweaking. Second point, it is not possible to watch a film on the > Pro-Tools sound card when you are using the application you need a > second sound card. I don't speak of course of Mbox, etc..., but true > Pro-Tools HD cards. First point, I can't understand the interest of > watching a DVD when working on audio or recording a session. No > serious guy would do that, or maybe I am too serious. Ok. > Instead of complaining that it is not working like YOU want, perhaps > can you explain what is the purpose, your specific need, etc... ? Do > you need to record the sound of a movie into an Ardour session or > something like that ? Please provide some infos, and we will help you > to find the good way to work. I don't want to listen to CDs/DVDS and work in Ardour *simultaneously* bit I want to be able to; 1. Watch a DVD/listen to some music 2. Work with ardour 3. Watch a DVD/listen again to some music _without_ starting/stopping jackd or manually tweaking configure scripts. > Please, don't consider that answer as an attack. But please, too, > give a bit more explanation about your need. Thank you for answering my emails in the first time. :) I understand that for professional work with many tracks/effects/etc you have to have a professional sound card. I think you can do professional work _without_ one, for example recording single tracks for later use. As I mentioned this is frequently done by professional composers/musicians that I know of. So the only thing I complain about is a working ardour after first installation. Consider two users, A is a professional and B is a hobbyist. Now it is: A has to configure ardour/his sound card to get a professional music workstation, and B installs ardour, gets a mysterious error message (your hard disk is too slow!) and immediately returns to W*s! I think it should be: A has again to configure everything, but B installs ardour and gets a nicely working piece of software with easy record and playback. B is happy and tells C to use Linux for his recordings/compositions. I think this could be done by routing audio data from ardour via jack to pulseaudio. Wrong? gonz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 11:59 -0400, Cory K. wrote: > Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: > > would basic defaults making > > jackd output to PulseAudio hurt anybody? Sure it would be slow, it would > > not be serious at all, but would it allow people that can stand that use > > JACK then? Others, as you said, will configure it. > > > > Yes. It would hurt people expecting a particular latency. Look thorough > the ubuntu-studio-users mailing list about this. Getting JACK to work > with PulseAudio is the lesser issue to getting good latency timings. > > In talking to the guys on #jack, #ardour and Paul Davis himself routing > JACK through Pulse Audio by default is a bad idea. You think this is > heated? You should have been on IRC when I posed these JACK through PA > by default questions. ;) > > In Ubuntu Studio we have a wrapper script around jackd to stop Pulse for > JACK and restart it once done. This is what most users have wanted based > on feedback. > > If latency isn't an issue, use Jokosher or maybe Audacity. People who > need to use Ardour need the performance JACK and Ardour can provide > without added overhead. > has anyone thought about setting up a jack/ardour/pulseaudio howto somewhere? as i mentioned in another post earlier in this thread, i don think there is a potential userbase -- podcasters & audio editors -- for whom ardour would be a really excellent solution, if they could just get it to work without lots of fiddling with sounddaemons. is there anyone who agrees with me? matt > -Cory \m/ > -- Matt Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: > would basic defaults making > jackd output to PulseAudio hurt anybody? Sure it would be slow, it would > not be serious at all, but would it allow people that can stand that use > JACK then? Others, as you said, will configure it. > Yes. It would hurt people expecting a particular latency. Look thorough the ubuntu-studio-users mailing list about this. Getting JACK to work with PulseAudio is the lesser issue to getting good latency timings. In talking to the guys on #jack, #ardour and Paul Davis himself routing JACK through Pulse Audio by default is a bad idea. You think this is heated? You should have been on IRC when I posed these JACK through PA by default questions. ;) In Ubuntu Studio we have a wrapper script around jackd to stop Pulse for JACK and restart it once done. This is what most users have wanted based on feedback. If latency isn't an issue, use Jokosher or maybe Audacity. People who need to use Ardour need the performance JACK and Ardour can provide without added overhead. -Cory \m/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
Please don't take my remarks so badly! I did not said I was smarter than every audio packager in Ubuntu, nor did I said this was absolutely required for Ubuntu to be something usable and that else I'd immediately go to Windows. Believe it if you want: I'm not even personally interested in getting Ardour working out of the box since I don't use it. And I'm okay to configure jackd myself for use with Rosegarden (which AFAIK needs jack) - actually on my computer it requires no configuration but the defaults. I perfectly agree with you that as soon as you want to make your computer something quite serious you need to configure things. But what you managed until now not to answer to is: would basic defaults making jackd output to PulseAudio hurt anybody? Sure it would be slow, it would not be serious at all, but would it allow people that can stand that use JACK then? Others, as you said, will configure it. I'm not asking you to implement it, I'm just looking for a possible theoretical solution. As a user I guess I can help by telling developers what users may like to see. Have a good day -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
> -> Yes, some sound cards really need 2, and some really need 3. In this case it sounds like you need device specific configuration, you should consider creating some sort of udev/hal infrastructure where this data is configured into a data point in hal and your pulse audio or what ever scripts you hang around it that look at hardware can configure on the fly from there. > don't own all the sound card of the world, it will be very difficult to > test them Oh it's not that hard. It be nice to have hardware testing brought into the community; you don't have to do everything yourself. Ask for others to add corrections as you go and pick sensible defaults where data doesn't exist. > NOT at all intended for musical noobs... It is intended for serious > music workers, even if they are hobbyist like me and a lot of people, in I decided to ignore the rant that followed the productive part of the email, it wasn't very nice. Please lets keep this mailing list professional. Best Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
Hey, "The current situation is bad for everybody: noobs have to configure jackd, but advanced users configure it anyway." -> It is not bad for advanced users, since they have to configure their hardware anyway. And I wouldn't say it is bad for noobs, because it depends what is the aim of a noob. If its aim is to work like advanced users, they have to learn a bit. For me, the problem is more for people looking for a solution working out of the box, and they will use it 5min per month. These users are not the priority at the moment. And, most important, there is applications for them available, working out of the box, like Jokosher wich is an equivalent of GarageBand. What I don't understand is: - whether the -n 3 option would work for every standard card or if some absolutely require -n 2 -> Yes, some sound cards really need 2, and some really need 3. As we don't own all the sound card of the world, it will be very difficult to test them, make a database, and reprogram a jack gui or daemon wich would auto detect and auto configure the sound card for this parameter. And it means that people will still have to manually set up latency, sample frequency, etc... So why auto detect period/buffer ? a simple test and it is ok. - whether going though pulseaudio is really an issue concerning performance (I mean, only for base users) -> For real time users, it is a true problem of performances. It means that the minimum latency will be the Pulse Audio latency, wich is higher than 10ms, plus adding a necessary Jack latency. So impossible, even for a newbie, to record several tracks one after one. Furthermore, you had a step more from applications to the sound card, wich means more CPU usage, and so less for the effects and processings of the sound, the hard disk access, etc... You are focused on Ardour, Ardour, Ardour, Ardour... perhaps would you check if another application would fit better to your need. Ardour is NOT at all intended for musical noobs... It is intended for serious music workers, even if they are hobbyist like me and a lot of people, in order to make production or pre-production record and mixes. Don't forget that when one want a true good quality record, the better is to go in a true professional recording studio. Cheap sessions are possible, starting at 200 € / day. Of course if you don't go to Abbey Road or Electric Ladyland, but in a local small studio working for radios, etc. Once again, look at applications: Jokosher, Muse, Rosegarden. Anyone involved in Ubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Ardour, Alsa, etc... try to do his/her best in order that everything work as simply as possible. First of all, the aim is that the most hardware as possible is compatible and work out of the box. Second, that applications are packaged and distributed in the latest release as possible. And third, once a base is distributed, a lot of work is done in order to simplify the configuration, etc... Perhaps instead of complaining, you can participate. Or if you are not happy with Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio, wich are a free distributions, please consider buying a RedHat. I am pretty sure everything is working out of the box for your need. Of course: Lennart Pottering, the creator of Pulse Audio, is now working for them. But take care of that : the aim of Lennart is that Pulse Audio would replace any audio server, including Jack. However, it is not possible at the moment, and I don't think it will be possible for softwares like Ardour, due to the Pulse Audio architecture: too much different from Jack. Last point but not least, if you own a firewire sound card, the only to use it is to work with Jack. No other sound server can run the Freebob driver at the moment. And you still have to configure everything for that kind of hardware. So, in order to close and conclude this non productive chat (imho), I would say that if you are so smart about telling that it is not working as YOU want, please, design or create the good solution. Maybe, just compile and create the packages of the Pulse Audio to Jack, and the Jack to Pulse Audio plugins. Perhaps it would be a start of solution. But keep in mind that it will not solve everything. Toine Milan Bouchet-Valat a écrit : > Le vendredi 25 avril 2008 à 19:45 +0200, Gonz Hauser a écrit : > >> My opinion is that it should be possible to provide a _default_ >> configuration where jackd connects to pulseaudio (this is what >> module-jack-source is for, right?). >> >> Let me repeat my two concerns: >> >> 1. Ardour in Ubuntu Hardy doesn't work out of the box >> 2. It is not possible to use mplayer and ardour at the same time >> >> I believe it is possible manually fix this up but I have still the >> opinion that it should be possible to provide a simple default >> configuration. >> So please convince me that I'm wrong (and it isn't possible to have a >> working ardour on a notebook) or tell me how this can be resolved. >> You put so much hard work into ardour/jack/pulseaudio that
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 20:09 +0200, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: > Le lundi 28 avril 2008 à 12:25 -0400, Cory K. a écrit : > > Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: > > > I've been through both bugs and to me, as an occasional jack user, it > > > seems that the best would be that jackd defaults to the pulseaudio > > > output. Users that have better hardware and do more advanced stuff are > > > able to tweak what they need. > > > > > > > This could be done if JACK were in main. Then the needed module could be > > built. > What module and why does it need to be in main? > > > > But it should *not* be the default behavior because it introduces a > > added layer of latency that also impacts the user experience in a > > negative way. ie: performance. > My point was: is performance really an issue for base users that don't > know how to configure jackd anyway? If we leave it not working > out-of-the-box at all, this is worse for everybody than getting bad > performances. > > If you don't need a high-quality sound in perfect realtime and don't use > many tracks/instruments/sources at the same time, the problem may not > appear at all. And if so, you are likely to accept tweaking things a > little further (using a GUI?). > just $.02 -- there are users who want to use ardour but don't need zero-latency performance. for instance, i produce small radio documentaries and ould like to do this using free software; ardour is the obvious choice, but i won't be recording on my computer -- i have a handheld device i use for all recording, and then upload the resultant mp3 files onto my computer for editing. > > > It is trickier than it seems. There is no "best" solution for everyone. > > This (to me) is simply one of those situations where the user has to > > figure out what they are doing. > I think Ubuntu's philosophy is "make it work anyway for every standard > user needs". That may not be possible in the state of the software but > if there's a way to reduce the unexpected issues, it should be chosen. > Further configuration should always be leaved to more special cases. > > > > PulseAudio or JACK should be used separately by default IMO. I'm not > > saying don't make the tools available, but making JACK work through > > PulseAudio by default is bad. > Think of somebody that uses Rosegarden/Ardour/etc. once in a month and > uses its computer for everyday work: he needs PulseAudio because running > JACK all the time would be a waste. This case should be handled. > i think my use case applies here as well. most of the time i'm listening to mp3's; sometimes i do audio work, in which case i want ardour to run unproblematically without uninstalling pulseaudio or whatever. > I know Ubuntu Studio aims at a professional system, not at a basic usage > suiting set of applications. But since it is also Ubuntu, I guess it > should find a compromise. > > > > I'll consult upstream to see what their opinion is. > Good - they have too find a solution for this kind of case too. > > And thanks for your work! > > ditto on the thanks! matt > -- Matt Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
Le lundi 28 avril 2008 à 12:25 -0400, Cory K. a écrit : > Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: > > I've been through both bugs and to me, as an occasional jack user, it > > seems that the best would be that jackd defaults to the pulseaudio > > output. Users that have better hardware and do more advanced stuff are > > able to tweak what they need. > > > > This could be done if JACK were in main. Then the needed module could be > built. What module and why does it need to be in main? > But it should *not* be the default behavior because it introduces a > added layer of latency that also impacts the user experience in a > negative way. ie: performance. My point was: is performance really an issue for base users that don't know how to configure jackd anyway? If we leave it not working out-of-the-box at all, this is worse for everybody than getting bad performances. If you don't need a high-quality sound in perfect realtime and don't use many tracks/instruments/sources at the same time, the problem may not appear at all. And if so, you are likely to accept tweaking things a little further (using a GUI?). > It is trickier than it seems. There is no "best" solution for everyone. > This (to me) is simply one of those situations where the user has to > figure out what they are doing. I think Ubuntu's philosophy is "make it work anyway for every standard user needs". That may not be possible in the state of the software but if there's a way to reduce the unexpected issues, it should be chosen. Further configuration should always be leaved to more special cases. > PulseAudio or JACK should be used separately by default IMO. I'm not > saying don't make the tools available, but making JACK work through > PulseAudio by default is bad. Think of somebody that uses Rosegarden/Ardour/etc. once in a month and uses its computer for everyday work: he needs PulseAudio because running JACK all the time would be a waste. This case should be handled. I know Ubuntu Studio aims at a professional system, not at a basic usage suiting set of applications. But since it is also Ubuntu, I guess it should find a compromise. > I'll consult upstream to see what their opinion is. Good - they have too find a solution for this kind of case too. And thanks for your work! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
2008/4/28 Cory K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > It is trickier than it seems. There is no "best" solution for everyone. > This (to me) is simply one of those situations where the user has to > figure out what they are doing. > > PulseAudio or JACK should be used separately by default IMO. I'm not > saying don't make the tools available, but making JACK work through > PulseAudio by default is bad. Jack-Autostart normally works quite well, "if" jack is already configured, however a default configuration could work or not depending on what hardware is used. Ardour is a rather "high-end" tool, and for optimal performance its audio-backend, which happens to be JACK "should" be as close to the metal as possible, that is: connected directly to the sound device. In my humble opinion, a compromise that could work for "most" use cases would be that when jack is started, pulse disconnects from the default audio hardware, jack connects to the default audio hardware, and pulse reconnects to jack as a jack client. While this might require some integration work, I believe that this solution is feasible, especially because I think that one of pulse-audios stated goals is to support "dynamic" reconfiguration/rerouting of the audio configuration. This setup would have several advantages: A) jack and ardour get direct access to the hardware -> low latency (yeah, only as good as the default gets, not fine-tuned) B) pulse-audio is still able to talk to the sound device and is able to make noise. C) You can record _everything_ that goes through pulse in ardour, also VOIP Interviews for Example, or flash-plugin-audio. This feature is requested every now and then by users. One disadvantage is that if the sound-hardware is so crappy that it does not work within the requirements of jack, then it would not work. However, this is a rather difficult problem, and the Jack Devs are very much aware of that. If this is solved sooner or later depends on how jack development continues in the future. :-) Cheers -Richard -- Don't contribute to the Y10K problem! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: > Le vendredi 25 avril 2008 à 19:45 +0200, Gonz Hauser a écrit : > >> My opinion is that it should be possible to provide a _default_ >> configuration where jackd connects to pulseaudio (this is what >> module-jack-source is for, right?). >> >> Let me repeat my two concerns: >> >> 1. Ardour in Ubuntu Hardy doesn't work out of the box >> 2. It is not possible to use mplayer and ardour at the same time >> >> I believe it is possible manually fix this up but I have still the >> opinion that it should be possible to provide a simple default >> configuration. >> So please convince me that I'm wrong (and it isn't possible to have a >> working ardour on a notebook) or tell me how this can be resolved. >> You put so much hard work into ardour/jack/pulseaudio that it should not >> fail because of a small configuration mistake. >> >> Thanks for your work/ideas/help, >> > I've been through both bugs and to me, as an occasional jack user, it > seems that the best would be that jackd defaults to the pulseaudio > output. Users that have better hardware and do more advanced stuff are > able to tweak what they need. > This could be done if JACK were in main. Then the needed module could be built. But it should *not* be the default behavior because it introduces a added layer of latency that also impacts the user experience in a negative way. ie: performance. > The current situation is bad for everybody: noobs have to configure > jackd, but advanced users configure it anyway. > > What I don't understand is: > - whether the -n 3 option would work for every standard card or if some > absolutely require -n 2 > - whether going though pulseaudio is really an issue concerning > performance (I mean, only for base users) > > Since ardour requires jackd, the latter should configure itself > automatically so that ardour can start it flawlessly. But maybe this is > a little trickier that it seems - at least this was why pulseaudio was > introduced in Hardy. > > Cheers > It is trickier than it seems. There is no "best" solution for everyone. This (to me) is simply one of those situations where the user has to figure out what they are doing. PulseAudio or JACK should be used separately by default IMO. I'm not saying don't make the tools available, but making JACK work through PulseAudio by default is bad. I'll consult upstream to see what their opinion is. -Cory \m/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Pulseaudio/Jack in Ubuntu Hardy
Le vendredi 25 avril 2008 à 19:45 +0200, Gonz Hauser a écrit : > My opinion is that it should be possible to provide a _default_ > configuration where jackd connects to pulseaudio (this is what > module-jack-source is for, right?). > > Let me repeat my two concerns: > > 1. Ardour in Ubuntu Hardy doesn't work out of the box > 2. It is not possible to use mplayer and ardour at the same time > > I believe it is possible manually fix this up but I have still the > opinion that it should be possible to provide a simple default > configuration. > So please convince me that I'm wrong (and it isn't possible to have a > working ardour on a notebook) or tell me how this can be resolved. > You put so much hard work into ardour/jack/pulseaudio that it should not > fail because of a small configuration mistake. > > Thanks for your work/ideas/help, I've been through both bugs and to me, as an occasional jack user, it seems that the best would be that jackd defaults to the pulseaudio output. Users that have better hardware and do more advanced stuff are able to tweak what they need. The current situation is bad for everybody: noobs have to configure jackd, but advanced users configure it anyway. What I don't understand is: - whether the -n 3 option would work for every standard card or if some absolutely require -n 2 - whether going though pulseaudio is really an issue concerning performance (I mean, only for base users) Since ardour requires jackd, the latter should configure itself automatically so that ardour can start it flawlessly. But maybe this is a little trickier that it seems - at least this was why pulseaudio was introduced in Hardy. Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
