Re: iaccessible2 and linux (was Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility)
Hi My comments were not a criticism of at-spi but rather the need were possible to unify accessibilities standard across platforms for the simple reason that if software vendors have to worry about one accessibility stack it is better than two or three, as Linux as very small user based it is always left behind by the main vendors. In Windows there is MSAA which is a subset of both iAccessible2 and Microsoft own UI automation. There is also Java accessibility standard which is only supported (and even this is not great) by NVDA. This applies to Swing components, IBM Java SWT components work great in Windows anybody using Eclipse in Windows will know how accessible it is (I believe it is not bad in Linux either but not tried it recently), it relies on the native gui components for the OS which is a great approach. So more than one standard can co-exist as time moves on there is a need for new features and compatibility. I heard various stories on the feasibility of implementing iAccessible2 in Linux as well including the possibility of building a bridge to at-spi but I know very little about either. Anyway both myself and Bill Cox are very interested in cross platform accessibility solutions and working on a non related system right now. It is our desire to look at this issue at some stage in the not too distant future and we will keep you posted and seek other developers who might be interested. Regards Isaac On 07/06/2011 13:47, Piñeiro wrote: On 06/07/2011 03:36 AM, Isaac Porat wrote: Hi I was asking the same question a couple of years ago. My understanding after looking a bit into the issue is that IBM consulted at the time key people in accessibility in Linux (there still some minutes of these meetings) to make both interfaces as close as possible which as indicated it is somewhat the case. Reading between the lines, iAccessible2 was not accepted for Linux because of both companies and Linux vs Windows politics. the interfaces are close but not the same. At the time perhaps if somebody on the Linux side took a more favourable approach the communication layer in iAccessible2 implementations would have been properly separated. As it happened my understanding from Bil Cox who looked at the issue in more details in the Windows world the implementation and communication layers can be mixed with vendors who want to support both Windows and Linux so in practice they need to a good extend maintain two separate stacks and with the ratio of Windows to Linux users of something like 90 to 1 Linux support not suprisingly is always behind. It is true that there are people that thinks that moving iAccessible2 to Linux should be the path. But AFAIK, the reason of why it wasn't done was not due politics. It was in order to avoid to reinvent the wheel. Linux had already a working accessible interface, ATK, implemented by a lot of actors on Linux (gtk, firefox, etc). So moving to iAccessible2 means to change all in order to move to a (as already said) really similar technology, with similar features. But I also understand that having just one thing would have a lot of advantages. BTW: AFAIK, this is not one is better that two. AFAIK MacOS doesn't use ATK or Ia2: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Accessibility/Conceptual/AccessibilityMacOSX/OSXAXModel/OSXAXmodel.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40001078-CH208-TPXREF101 Or I'm wrong? BR -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: iaccessible2 and linux (was Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility)
Hi I was asking the same question a couple of years ago. My understanding after looking a bit into the issue is that IBM consulted at the time key people in accessibility in Linux (there still some minutes of these meetings) to make both interfaces as close as possible which as indicated it is somewhat the case. Reading between the lines, iAccessible2 was not accepted for Linux because of both companies and Linux vs Windows politics. the interfaces are close but not the same. At the time perhaps if somebody on the Linux side took a more favourable approach the communication layer in iAccessible2 implementations would have been properly separated. As it happened my understanding from Bil Cox who looked at the issue in more details in the Windows world the implementation and communication layers can be mixed with vendors who want to support both Windows and Linux so in practice they need to a good extend maintain two separate stacks and with the ratio of Windows to Linux users of something like 90 to 1 Linux support not suprisingly is always behind. So now it is probably too late to separate the layers for the large application as it would involve too much work. An opportunity lost. Like Alex, the browsing experience is the main reason I use mainly Windows. And I never understood why the off screen model is not adopted in Orca (probably the only screen reader taking this approach) yes there is sometimes the issue of synchronization with sighted users but it is in my opinion a price worth paying for speed and then there is of course the issue of inter processes as opposed to binary interface communication which is a lot faster in Windows. In addition, I was told that some screen readers take a pointer to the DOM tree which they are not suppose to do probably not wise for security but it is very fast. Regards Isaac Previous message... On 06/06/2011 23:36, frederik.gladh...@nokia.com wrote: I guess IBM needed a neutral place to dump the interface definitions. In theory it would be possible to implement iaccessible2 on linux, but the inter process communication of it would have to be replaced and all that is hosted as interface files on the linux foundation website can only be used with windows tools. So just the abstract interfaces could be taken, but as I said before, it is quite close to what at-spi is. For a better browsing experience I guess that browsers/firefox and the orca people need to have better feedback what is needed. Firefox has a lot of custom stuff that on windows is using iaccessible2, so maybe there is something needed. I have not looked at qt webkit yet as that seems to be another big project. Cheers Frederik On Jun 6, 2011, at 11:55 PM, ext Alex Midence wrote: Meant to send this to the entire list but didn't realize it did not go through. Thans. Alex M -- Forwarded message -- From: Alex Midencealex.mide...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:54:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility To: frederik.gladh...@nokia.com Hi, Frederik, Here is one of the resources that led me to believe that iaccessible2 was a feasible accessibility api for Linux applications and applications used to make others accessible in Linux to rely upon: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2/overview If it can not be used in Linux, why is it supported by the Linux Foundation? Alex M On 6/6/11, Alex Midencealex.mide...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for clearing that up. I was always quite mystified as to why it wasn't used. I found all sorts of postings as to why it was a bad idea but never anything quite so informative as to just why At-Spi was so preferable. I also found many postings when it first came out touting it as a good solution for cross-platform accessibility which is the reason I was under the impression that it could conceivably be implemented in Linux and hadn't been done so due to people preference and not because it was not feasible. Thanks again. Alex M On 6/6/11, frederik.gladh...@nokia.comfrederik.gladh...@nokia.com wrote: Hi, On Jun 6, 2011, at 3:42 AM, ext Alex Midence wrote: I seem to recall that Klaus Knopix is reputed to have had some success making LXDE accessible in his Knopix Adrienne distribution. Perhaps that is something that could be used as reference? As for python-related slowness in Orca, I would tend to agree. C is just faster than Python. Interpreted languages are going to require far more memory and resources than compiled ones in many cases. Actually, a saner thing would be an implementation of orca written in both C or c++ and Python. The low-level code in c and the more scriptable areas in Python. This is what NVDA's devs did and it's a slighning fast screen reader on a bloated system like Windows. While we're wishing, I'll go ahead and wish for iaccessible2 support instead of complete and exclusive reliance on at-spi/at-spi2 so that more widget
[Bug 586373] Re: Startup Disk Creator locks up Orca screen reader
This bug is confirmed and happens every time the accessibility profile is running. Thanks. Isaac Porat. -- Startup Disk Creator locks up Orca screen reader https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/586373 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 563061] Re: computer janitor crashes with accessibility profile enabled
Hi Barry, I am involved in Vinux A distro which is in its current version 3.0 essentially an enhanced Lucid for the blind. your latest CJ is now available to install for Vinux users and a number of people reported already that it works well. If I hear of any problems I shall let you know. We tend to test and have new accessibility type feature for the Blind community and some of these made their way to the main Ubuntu distro. Thanks again. Isaac On 24/05/2010 20:58, Barry Warsaw wrote: Isaac; this isn't going to make it into Lucid unfortunately. It will be available in Maverick. -- computer janitor crashes with accessibility profile enabled https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/563061 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 563061] Re: computer janitor crashes with accessibility profile enabled
Hi Barry My preliminary test shows that computer-janitor-gtk works well now - thank you. Note that my system is fairly new so no much junk to remove. Also I rely on speech only using Orca the screen reader will ask somebody else to test and will report again. When is this package likely to be available in the main Lucid repository? Regards Isaac On 20/05/2010 15:02, Barry Warsaw wrote: I suspect that this bug is fixed in CJ 2.0, which currently is available only in my PPA: https://edge.launchpad.net/~barry/+archive/python CJ 2.0 was rewritten to be single threaded in the main gtk code (and all system changing functionality is moved to a dbus service). If this is indeed a threading issue, the problem should be solved. If you can still reproduce it with CJ 2.0, please describe the exact steps involved in enabling the accessibility profile in Lucid. ** Changed in: computer-janitor (Ubuntu) Milestone: None = maverick-alpha-1 ** Changed in: computer-janitor (Ubuntu) Assignee: (unassigned) = Barry Warsaw (barry) ** Changed in: computer-janitor (Ubuntu) Importance: Undecided = High ** Changed in: computer-janitor (Ubuntu) Status: New = Incomplete -- computer janitor crashes with accessibility profile enabled https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/563061 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 563061] [NEW] computer janitor crashes with accessibility profile enabled
Public bug reported: Binary package hint: computer-janitor To reproduce the bug make sure that the accessibility profile is enabled and then in the terminal type: sudo computer-janitor-gtk Computer janitor crashes immediately. Joanmarie Diggs, a main Orca developer looked at the problem and suggested that since this problem occurs even without Orca the screen reader running, it is a computer janitor bug. In her experience, the most likely cause is a thread outside the main thread which updates the visual component. Note; because of known old unrelated problems, admin tools which require root permission when the accessibility profile is enabled can only be run from the terminal not from the menus. ProblemType: Bug DistroRelease: Ubuntu 10.04 Package: computer-janitor-gtk 1.14.1-0ubuntu2 ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 2.6.32-20.30-generic 2.6.32.11+drm33.2 Uname: Linux 2.6.32-20-generic i686 Architecture: i386 Date: Wed Apr 14 14:32:30 2010 InstallationMedia: Vinux 3.0 beta1 - Release i386 PackageArchitecture: all ProcEnviron: LANG=en_US.UTF-8 SHELL=/bin/bash SourcePackage: computer-janitor ** Affects: computer-janitor (Ubuntu) Importance: Undecided Status: New ** Tags: apport-bug i386 lucid -- computer janitor crashes with accessibility profile enabled https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/563061 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 563061] Re: computer janitor crashes with accessibility profile enabled
** Attachment added: Dependencies.txt http://launchpadlibrarian.net/44154165/Dependencies.txt -- computer janitor crashes with accessibility profile enabled https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/563061 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: orca out of the box
Hello Arki and all Your reply implies that all is well, in fact those who tried speech with Karmic knows that it is for all practical purposes unusable. It is my impression that even geeks can't get it to work reliably PulseAudio is too deeply embedded into the system and it seems that those looking after audio in Canonical never considered the impact of this on the blind community. There is a bold statement about accessibility on Ubuntu's website but it seems to have no roots in reality at least with Karmic. Jaunty had at least a clean way to remove PulseAudio and in fact it is the first distro I can use as a blind person productively - thanks to all concerned. Karmic is completely the other way - unusable. Yes I am aware of the various tweaks with limited effect and completely unworkable for the typical blind Windows or Mac user looking for an alternative. http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuKarmic When Karmic was released I thought this problem was a glitch, an oversight which will be sorted out; there are no visible sighnes of this yet, at least nothing that the blind community is aware of. Regards Isaac -Original Message- From: ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Arky Sent: 11 December 2009 05:30 To: Josh; ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: orca out of the box Hi Josh, Ubuntu LiveCD has an accessibility mode that enables blind users to use Orca screen reader and magnifier. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/#Starting%20Orca%20on%20the% 20Live%20CD Cheers --arky Rakesh 'arky' Ambati| IT Consultant| http://www.braillewithoutborders.org | Blog: http://playingwithsid.blogspot.com From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Fri, 11 December, 2009 6:40:12 AM Subject: orca out of the box Hi, I think in the next release when ubuntu live cd/dvd starts up it should detect the sound card then say: if you're blind do this to start the live cd with orca and dothat to start the installer with orca. make it more like the mac with voiceover kind of. Josh My email address is: jkenn...@gmail.com . www.satogo.com Get klango at www.klango.net it's free! Get NVDA www.nvda-project.org it's free! Grab Ubuntu at www.ubuntu.com it's free! and www.twitter.com/jkenn337 follow-me-on-twitter. The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_yyi_1/*http://in.yahoo.com/ . -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
RE: How's Karmic these days?
Hello I know that this is already old news but perhaps to keep it all in perspective, I have started to use 9.04 recently and impressed by the progress since 8.10 which I used before. OK it did not work for me out of the box (using wubi) but with a number of simple configurations everything is well and speech is responsive and reasonably reliable. The reality is that accessibility in the big world is not a priority if we like it or not; I am personally happy to wait for the new version of the distro to settle down - 9.04 is probably the first distro where I feel that I can do some real work with (not using the command line which I used in the good old days and do not wish to use but for backup and some admin tasks again). On a related point in reply to the previous message, Vinux has its place especially for new users where everything is pre configured and in my small way I fully support what Tony is doing. At the same time there is a place for Main distro which are ideally accessible out of the box or with minimal configuration where perhaps more settings are required but one can take advantage of the latest technology and what the main stream are using. Thanks to Luke, Will, Tony and all others including those who are happy to be at the bleeding edge who contribute to accessible technology. Regards Isaac -Original Message- From: ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Sales Sent: 22 October 2009 20:13 To: Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: RE: How's Karmic these days? Hi everyone, I think everyone appreciates what Willie and Luke are doing, without them LInux would be a whole lot less accessible and they are doing a great job in the circumstances. However they are up against the same problem as every other VI user, in that although companies acknowledge the need for accessibility it isn't very high on their priorities list and this is reflected on the fact that Luke and Willie seem to be the only people who are allowed to work on these projects by their employers. If they were serious their would be a team of people working on accessibility, and it wouldn't be an afterthought but a fundamental element of all applications. The reality is that the VI are but one minority group amongst many, they aren't a big enough user group to generate billions of dollars, and thus they are catered for by smaller companies who can charge an arm and a leg for software many people can't survive without. I think mainstream Linux accessibility will gradually g et better, but just like with Windows, it will always be an afterthought or add on, it is unlikely that any major distributer will produce a fully accessible OS optimised for the VI. This is why I started making Vinux, and I don't want to start any new arguments about mainstream v specialist accesibility software, but just imagine if Willie and Luke where actually working on an Orca distro rather than on the software itself, instead of trying to get it to work with Ubuntu's latest cutting edge technology. Then they would be able to make whatever changes were necessary to get the system fully accessible and include all the best accessible software. That is what I am trying to do with Vinux, but I simply don't have the technical skills and knowledge that Luke and Willie have, and like me they have to earn a living and it isn't likely to come from producing open-source accessibility software unless a government or large charity get involved. I still think it would be great if a ll of the developers interested in VI issues could pool their resources into one distro to rule them all, and this is not an attempt to devalue their work, what they are doing is great, but I sometimes feel that we are all swimming against the tide of the needs of the sighted majority and we are always going to be little fish. Keep up the good work, I am following in your wake, and without the work you do the Vinux project would not have been possible at all! drbongo ___ From: ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Willie Walker [william.wal...@sun.com] Sent: 22 October 2009 19:26 To: Bill Cox Cc: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: How's Karmic these days? Hi All: From a stability standpoint, I can share what I'm planning for GNOME 2.30, which I suspect is likely to be what Lucid Lynx will be based upon. The main goal for GNOME 2.30 (which you'll see developed via the GNOME 2.29.x development releases) is that we're retooling the entire accessibility infrastructure to shed the Bonobo/CORBA dependency. This includes the AT-SPI infrastructure, speech, and magnification: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/BonoboDeprecation At the same time, we have some big technologies coming down the pipe that will need accessibility support: WebKit and GNOME Shell. GDM 2.28
