Re: [ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
On 11 November 2010 22:23, Tyler J. Wagner ty...@tolaris.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 21:12 +, Bruno Girin wrote: For a publisher, the traditional business model is based on acquiring the rights to reproduce a text, producing physical items out of this text, shifting those books to distributors and selling the physical objects. Most of the cost is in the distribution ... Incorrect. Most of the cost is in the non-physical stuff: editing, typesetting, marketing, and other forms of production. I think that in fact the relative costs to the publisher of paper books versus e-books is pretty much irrelevant. The _price_ that a product is marketed at is only loosely related to the _cost_ of production and distribution. A supplier will always attempt to set the price of a product so as to maximise his total profit. In the case of e-books this is a particularly difficult calculation as he must make sure that in shifting buyers from paper to e there is not a reduction in profit. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
On 10/11/2010 08:17, Neil Greenwood wrote: On 9 November 2010 19:53, richardrjs1...@u.genie.co.uk wrote: On 09/11/10 15:40, Neil Greenwood wrote: On 9 November 2010 13:13, pmgazzpmg...@gmx.co.ukwrote: All the editing etc has to be done for the print copy anyway, and an e book has none of the costs of physical book. Such as distribution, handling, printing, staffing the shop, pulping the ones that don't sell! E books should be considerably cheaper, only trouble is the book world is scared stiff of them. That's not how it works though. The publisher will amortise the costs of editing, copy-editing, marketing, artwork, printing, warehousing, distributing, author advance, etc. across the expected print run (including physical and digital editions). Then of course, they add a healthy profit on top. A significant chunk of the profit they attempt to make on one title goes towards acquiring future titles (kind of like RD expenses in software development). Isn't the largest part of the cover price the retailers margin? By selling more directly, and cutting out the middleman, or selling through automated stores that don't have the same overheads as a shop or chain, the publisher should, in theory, be able to charge less and receive more. (Many a slip between theory and actuality, of course.) John -- John Levin http://www.anterotesis.com http://www.facebook.com/john.levin http://twitter.com/anterotesis -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
On Wed, 2010-11-10 at 18:28 +, Will Bickerstaff wrote: On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Glen Mehn glen.m...@oba.co.uk wrote: snip The bank analogy doesn't exactly make sense as banks are replacing something expensive for them (employees, time, and physical space) with something very scalable and well-understood (web apps). Books switching to ebook is replacing something well-understood and dirt cheap (printing/distribution) with something not so well understood (three major competing formats, a dizzying array of DRM options or not, personal fears in a declining industry, no standard) So a second hand 10 year old half decent machine is going to set us back circa £250,000 (Not cheap). Believe it or not, the equipment is actually going to need to occupy some physical space. Likewise our finished products are also going to need to occupy physical space until they are distributed. Space is space, whether you a bank or a printer, in fact as a printer your probably going to need more than a bank. Then we have energy use, some 33kW, Maintenance Work and operators, so there's your employees and time which I don't think materially differ too much from banks either. There's also a ton of other work that you'd need to account for whether it be another energy consumer or direct labour, think loading/unloading materials packaging for despatch, order taking and processing staff facilities etc. So actually, I think the bank analogy works very well. In my opinion, there are probably bigger savings for printers than banks. I don't think I fully agree with you. As far as the bank is concerned, whether you go through a branch or the internet, you are still using the same services and they are still making money the same way, by basically allowing you to store your own money in their bank accounts or by lending you money. Money is already a line item in a database so what internet means for them is the ability to present those line items online rather than on a piece of paper. They can therefore streamline those processes and use less resources to deliver them but in essence they don't change their business model. For a publisher, the traditional business model is based on acquiring the rights to reproduce a text, producing physical items out of this text, shifting those books to distributors and selling the physical objects. Most of the cost is in the distribution and the value is in the physical object so that's what you pay for. Switching to digital means that this business model doesn't work anymore because the distribution and copy become very cheap and anybody can do it, not just them. So the value no longer is in the distribution and a physical product, it is in the artistic creation performed by the author and they don't know how to monetise that. So in order to keep the same business model, they have to artificially restrict the ability to distribute and copy by using DRM. In addition to this, it means a major change in how they produce the book: they have to retrofit a digital workflow on top of a traditional industrial workflow. So yes there are some potential cost savings but there is also a massive change in business model and that's where they have a problem. Cheers, Bruno -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 21:12 +, Bruno Girin wrote: For a publisher, the traditional business model is based on acquiring the rights to reproduce a text, producing physical items out of this text, shifting those books to distributors and selling the physical objects. Most of the cost is in the distribution ... Incorrect. Most of the cost is in the non-physical stuff: editing, typesetting, marketing, and other forms of production. Regards, Tyler -- I respect you too much to respect your ridiculous ideas. -- Johann Hari -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
On 9 November 2010 19:53, richard rjs1...@u.genie.co.uk wrote: On 09/11/10 15:40, Neil Greenwood wrote: On 9 November 2010 13:13, pmgazzpmg...@gmx.co.uk wrote: Most of all, I'd love to know how it is that digital book production and distribution - which has to be much cheaper than print surely - wants £16 per copyrighted book when I can get a print copy physically mailed to me for less than 25% of that price? Well, I mean, if you don't want people to steal stuff . . . Paula Most of the costs are not down to distribution and printing (think editing, marketing, copy-editing, artwork, etc., etc.). Also, there are economies of scale that bring the price of physical books down. So the actual differential is much smaller than you'd expect. There can also be differences in the contract with the author that affect the price of the digital copy. I agree that the example you quoted is extreme though. The price *should* be about the same. Cofion/Regards, Neil. All the editing etc has to be done for the print copy anyway, and an e book has none of the costs of physical book. Such as distribution, handling, printing, staffing the shop, pulping the ones that don't sell! E books should be considerably cheaper, only trouble is the book world is scared stiff of them. That's not how it works though. The publisher will amortise the costs of editing, copy-editing, marketing, artwork, printing, warehousing, distributing, author advance, etc. across the expected print run (including physical and digital editions). Then of course, they add a healthy profit on top. A significant chunk of the profit they attempt to make on one title goes towards acquiring future titles (kind of like RD expenses in software development). There would be no point in a publisher applying the costs of the physical book just to the physical book and then trying to sell the electronic version for the unique costs it attracts (which still include some production costs, distribution, marketing, etc. Bandwidth is not free), since they would shoot themselves in the foot, sell maybe 50 physical books at $10 and thousands of electronic ones at $0.10 (random figures, and very poor sales), and make a massive loss on the title. The major problem *is* that a lot of publishers are scared, but a minority have actually learned something from the debacle that the music industry went through (and is still suffering). O'Reilly and Apress, among others, publish electronic versions of technical books. Some of them even come without DRM. In the fiction world, Baen, Tor and Subterranean Press - OK, I'm a sci-fi geek :-) - are doing good things for readers and authors alike. A lot of this is just my opinion after reading blog posts from various authors (Cory Doctorow, John Scalzi, Neil Gaiman, Wil Wheaton, maybe others) who have gone through the process. And it has a very US-centric bias because of that. I'm not aware of any UK publishers' actions, good or bad, when it comes to electronic books. Cofion/Regards, Neil. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
On 10/11/10 10:20, richard wrote: I know nothing about publishing but if you look at the banks, an online account is usualy a better deal because the costs are lower. There will always be sales for paper books, because sometimes it is nicer to hold a nicely made book in your hands, but when there are enough kindles etc out there e books will be a market on their own, selling at a discount. That is just my prediction, and what do I know? The other aspect that occured to me was that the distribution of books is in fewer hands every year, with a small number of shops choosing the titles that they think will make them the most money. If you are an e book only seller you have a usp right there. Probably the biggest thing is the economies of scale involved. Digital margins are tiny. Print and distribution is dirt cheap at volume (think: people have been doing it for several hundred years and figuring out how to make it cheaper). The bank analogy doesn't exactly make sense as banks are replacing something expensive for them (employees, time, and physical space) with something very scalable and well-understood (web apps). Books switching to ebook is replacing something well-understood and dirt cheap (printing/distribution) with something not so well understood (three major competing formats, a dizzying array of DRM options or not, personal fears in a declining industry, no standard) A big thing is that digital distribution requires re-editing and re-layout to make the book readable on a variety of ereaders. There aren't that many people who know how to do that, therefore supply is restricted, and price goes up (fundamental microeconomics). Furthermore, there's not as high demand, so it appears to be a bit of a boutique item, therefore price goes up. Then there's DRM costs. They do have to license these things. There's all the support staff around dealing with amazon/sony/adobe/etc. The difference between DRM for books and for ebooks, of course, is that you can loan one book out to your mate, but one person (in theory) could make 1mm copies of a book and really put a potential dent in sales. There's probably some sort of middle way that'll eventually happen. The price will come down at some point. Personally, I think (hope!) we'll end up in a world where content publishers will charge either micropayments for the service or a flat monthly charge for, say, groups of newsmagazines/books/whatever, and you'll consume as fast as you read. Right now, the consumer (you and I) are getting the worst end of the stick. I've resorted to the library for most things, which isn't good for the publisher or the retailer. Further pretty good discussions here: http://www.aneclecticmind.com/2010/06/24/ebook-costs-and-pricing-part-i-the-costs/ http://www.aneclecticmind.com/2010/06/28/ebook-costs-and-pricing-part-ii-the-pricing/ http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/08/pr_burningquestion_ebooks/ -g -- Glen Mehn glen.m...@oba.co.uk skype: glenmehn | blog: http://glen.mehn.net/mba UK: +44(0)7942 675 755 | US: +1 415 704 4737 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
On 10/11/10 08:17, Neil Greenwood wrote: On 9 November 2010 19:53, richardrjs1...@u.genie.co.uk wrote: On 09/11/10 15:40, Neil Greenwood wrote: On 9 November 2010 13:13, pmgazzpmg...@gmx.co.ukwrote: Most of all, I'd love to know how it is that digital book production and distribution - which has to be much cheaper than print surely - wants £16 per copyrighted book when I can get a print copy physically mailed to me for less than 25% of that price? Well, I mean, if you don't want people to steal stuff . . . Paula Most of the costs are not down to distribution and printing (think editing, marketing, copy-editing, artwork, etc., etc.). Also, there are economies of scale that bring the price of physical books down. So the actual differential is much smaller than you'd expect. There can also be differences in the contract with the author that affect the price of the digital copy. I agree that the example you quoted is extreme though. The price *should* be about the same. Cofion/Regards, Neil. All the editing etc has to be done for the print copy anyway, and an e book has none of the costs of physical book. Such as distribution, handling, printing, staffing the shop, pulping the ones that don't sell! E books should be considerably cheaper, only trouble is the book world is scared stiff of them. That's not how it works though. The publisher will amortise the costs of editing, copy-editing, marketing, artwork, printing, warehousing, distributing, author advance, etc. across the expected print run (including physical and digital editions). Then of course, they add a healthy profit on top. A significant chunk of the profit they attempt to make on one title goes towards acquiring future titles (kind of like RD expenses in software development). There would be no point in a publisher applying the costs of the physical book just to the physical book and then trying to sell the electronic version for the unique costs it attracts (which still include some production costs, distribution, marketing, etc. Bandwidth is not free), since they would shoot themselves in the foot, sell maybe 50 physical books at $10 and thousands of electronic ones at $0.10 (random figures, and very poor sales), and make a massive loss on the title. The major problem *is* that a lot of publishers are scared, but a minority have actually learned something from the debacle that the music industry went through (and is still suffering). O'Reilly and Apress, among others, publish electronic versions of technical books. Some of them even come without DRM. In the fiction world, Baen, Tor and Subterranean Press - OK, I'm a sci-fi geek :-) - are doing good things for readers and authors alike. A lot of this is just my opinion after reading blog posts from various authors (Cory Doctorow, John Scalzi, Neil Gaiman, Wil Wheaton, maybe others) who have gone through the process. And it has a very US-centric bias because of that. I'm not aware of any UK publishers' actions, good or bad, when it comes to electronic books. Cofion/Regards, Neil. I know nothing about publishing but if you look at the banks, an online account is usualy a better deal because the costs are lower. There will always be sales for paper books, because sometimes it is nicer to hold a nicely made book in your hands, but when there are enough kindles etc out there e books will be a market on their own, selling at a discount. That is just my prediction, and what do I know? The other aspect that occured to me was that the distribution of books is in fewer hands every year, with a small number of shops choosing the titles that they think will make them the most money. If you are an e book only seller you have a usp right there. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Glen Mehn glen.m...@oba.co.uk wrote: snip The bank analogy doesn't exactly make sense as banks are replacing something expensive for them (employees, time, and physical space) with something very scalable and well-understood (web apps). Books switching to ebook is replacing something well-understood and dirt cheap (printing/distribution) with something not so well understood (three major competing formats, a dizzying array of DRM options or not, personal fears in a declining industry, no standard) So a second hand 10 year old half decent machine is going to set us back circa £250,000 (Not cheap). Believe it or not, the equipment is actually going to need to occupy some physical space. Likewise our finished products are also going to need to occupy physical space until they are distributed. Space is space, whether you a bank or a printer, in fact as a printer your probably going to need more than a bank. Then we have energy use, some 33kW, Maintenance Work and operators, so there's your employees and time which I don't think materially differ too much from banks either. There's also a ton of other work that you'd need to account for whether it be another energy consumer or direct labour, think loading/unloading materials packaging for despatch, order taking and processing staff facilities etc. So actually, I think the bank analogy works very well. In my opinion, there are probably bigger savings for printers than banks. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Book costs (was Re: e-books without Adobe Digital Editions)
Apologies, I did mean to add that in general I agree with everything you say. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
