[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Status: Expired => Won't Fix -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
[Expired for xorg-server (Ubuntu) because there has been no activity for 60 days.] ** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Status: Incomplete => Expired -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
Yung Shen, thank you for reporting this bug to Ubuntu. Precise 12.04.3 reached EOL on August 2014. See this document for currently supported Ubuntu releases: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases Is this reproducible in the latest enablement stack of Precise? Also, could you please provide the full computer model as noted on the sticker of the computer itself (not from the Bug Description)? ** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Importance: High => Low ** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Status: Confirmed => Incomplete ** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Assignee: Timo Aaltonen (tjaalton) => (unassigned) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Assignee: (unassigned) = Timo Aaltonen (tjaalton) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
Verified with Trusty 14.04 on this system, installer works fine in both UEFI and legacy mode, and display works after installation as well -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
Also, this issue cannot be reproduced with 12.04.4 on 201305-13489, which is not a hybrid-graphic system ([1002:6600] only) And cannot be reproduced with 201307-13919, a hybrid-graphic system ([1002:9995] + [1002:6600]) Thus I think this might be a system-specific issue (or the combination of video controllers) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
More information from 201305-13489, the integrated graphic controller could be enabled / disabled in BIOS, if enabled, the graphic controller is [1002:9991] as well, and this issue could be reproduced. Seems that the combination is the cause. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users. ** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Status: New = Confirmed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
** Description changed: - This system can only be installed by using UEFI bios, + On this hardware system, user can only see graphic installer using UEFI + mode, in the other hand legacy mode can only see black screen during + when booting installer. - After installation successfully, can't boot into X desktop. + After installation successfully by using UEFI mode, it can't boot into X + desktop. It's blocking user to use jockey-gtk to install fglrx driver. - --- + + --- .tmp.unity.support.test.0: - + ApportVersion: 2.0.1-0ubuntu17.4 Architecture: amd64 CompizPlugins: [core,composite,opengl,compiztoolbox,decor,vpswitch,snap,mousepoll,resize,place,move,wall,grid,regex,imgpng,session,gnomecompat,animation,fade,unitymtgrabhandles,workarounds,scale,expo,ezoom,unityshell] CompositorRunning: compiz DistUpgraded: Fresh install DistroCodename: precise DistroRelease: Ubuntu 12.04 DistroVariant: ubuntu DkmsStatus: fglrx-updates, 12.104, 3.8.0-30-generic, x86_64: installed ExtraDebuggingInterest: Yes, even including gdb or git bisection work if needed GraphicsCard: - Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Trinity [Radeon HD 7540D] [1002:9991] (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) -Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device [103c:2af6] - Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Mars [Radeon HD 8670A/8750M] [1002:6600] (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) -Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device [103c:2af6] + Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Trinity [Radeon HD 7540D] [1002:9991] (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) + Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device [103c:2af6] + Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Mars [Radeon HD 8670A/8750M] [1002:6600] (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) + Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device [103c:2af6] InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 12.04.3 LTS Precise Pangolin - Release amd64 (20130820.1) JockeyStatus: - xorg:fglrx_experimental_13 - ATI/AMD proprietary FGLRX graphics driver (**experimental** beta) (Proprietary, Disabled, Not in use) - xorg:fglrx_updates - ATI/AMD proprietary FGLRX graphics driver (post-release updates) (Proprietary, Enabled, Not in use) + xorg:fglrx_experimental_13 - ATI/AMD proprietary FGLRX graphics driver (**experimental** beta) (Proprietary, Disabled, Not in use) + xorg:fglrx_updates - ATI/AMD proprietary FGLRX graphics driver (post-release updates) (Proprietary, Enabled, Not in use) MachineType: Hewlett-Packard DVT-ys002 MarkForUpload: True NonfreeKernelModules: fglrx Package: xorg 1:7.6+12ubuntu2 PackageArchitecture: amd64 ProcEnviron: - TERM=xterm - SHELL=/bin/bash - PATH=(custom, no user) - LANG=en_US.UTF-8 + TERM=xterm + SHELL=/bin/bash + PATH=(custom, no user) + LANG=en_US.UTF-8 ProcKernelCmdLine: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-3.8.0-30-generic.efi.signed root=UUID=600f7c05-868f-479d-80a1-a96c33ce8ca5 ro quiet splash vt.handoff=7 ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 3.8.0-30.44~precise1-generic 3.8.13.6 Tags: precise running-unity ubuntu referred-by-support compiz-0.9 Uname: Linux 3.8.0-30-generic x86_64 UpgradeStatus: No upgrade log present (probably fresh install) UserGroups: adm cdrom dip lpadmin plugdev sambashare sudo dmi.bios.date: 01/07/2013 dmi.bios.vendor: AMI dmi.bios.version: 3.13H dmi.board.asset.tag: 4CS247000Z dmi.board.name: 2AF6 dmi.board.vendor: Hewlett-Packard dmi.board.version: 011 dmi.chassis.asset.tag: 4CS247000Z dmi.chassis.type: 3 dmi.chassis.vendor: Hewlett-Packard dmi.modalias: dmi:bvnAMI:bvr3.13H:bd01/07/2013:svnHewlett-Packard:pnDVT-ys002:pvr:rvnHewlett-Packard:rn2AF6:rvr011:cvnHewlett-Packard:ct3:cvr: dmi.product.name: DVT-ys002 dmi.sys.vendor: Hewlett-Packard version.compiz: compiz 1:0.9.7.12-0ubuntu2 version.fglrx-installer: fglrx-installer N/A version.ia32-libs: ia32-libs N/A version.libdrm2: libdrm2 2.4.43-0ubuntu0.0.2 version.libgl1-mesa-dri: libgl1-mesa-dri N/A version.libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental: libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental N/A version.libgl1-mesa-glx: libgl1-mesa-glx N/A version.xserver-xorg-core: xserver-xorg-core N/A version.xserver-xorg-input-evdev: xserver-xorg-input-evdev N/A version.xserver-xorg-video-ati: xserver-xorg-video-ati N/A version.xserver-xorg-video-intel: xserver-xorg-video-intel N/A version.xserver-xorg-video-nouveau: xserver-xorg-video-nouveau N/A -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
** Tags added: blocks-hwcert-enablement -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
@s-j-tunner @tjaalton, you are right, Installing Saucy through UEFI mode (USB), now it can successfully log into X desktop after installation. However does failed to use legacy mode (USB) to install Saucy on this system, black screen during installation. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Status: Incomplete = New -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
you have a hybrid system and it loads both radeon and vesa drivers, since the other chip is not supported by the kernel and/or the -ati driver.. I guess the server could be more clever here and never load vesa on a hybrid. can you try saucy if it's fixed there? ** Package changed: xorg (Ubuntu) = xorg-server (Ubuntu) ** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Importance: Undecided = High ** Changed in: xorg-server (Ubuntu) Status: New = Incomplete -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg-server in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
This should be working with the open-source radeon driver on Ubuntu 13.10 Saucy Salamander, or on Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin update to a 3.11-based kernel and the xorg-edgers PPA. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
-- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1231916] Re: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation
** Attachment added: failed log before fglrx installed https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/1231916/+attachment/3844327/+files/apportlog-without-fglrx ** Tags added: apport-collected compiz-0.9 precise referred-by-support running-unity ubuntu ** Description changed: This system can only be installed by using UEFI bios, After installation successfully, can't boot into X desktop. It's blocking user to use jockey-gtk to install fglrx driver. + --- + .tmp.unity.support.test.0: + + ApportVersion: 2.0.1-0ubuntu17.4 + Architecture: amd64 + CompizPlugins: [core,composite,opengl,compiztoolbox,decor,vpswitch,snap,mousepoll,resize,place,move,wall,grid,regex,imgpng,session,gnomecompat,animation,fade,unitymtgrabhandles,workarounds,scale,expo,ezoom,unityshell] + CompositorRunning: compiz + DistUpgraded: Fresh install + DistroCodename: precise + DistroRelease: Ubuntu 12.04 + DistroVariant: ubuntu + DkmsStatus: fglrx-updates, 12.104, 3.8.0-30-generic, x86_64: installed + ExtraDebuggingInterest: Yes, even including gdb or git bisection work if needed + GraphicsCard: + Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Trinity [Radeon HD 7540D] [1002:9991] (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) +Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device [103c:2af6] + Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Mars [Radeon HD 8670A/8750M] [1002:6600] (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) +Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Device [103c:2af6] + InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 12.04.3 LTS Precise Pangolin - Release amd64 (20130820.1) + JockeyStatus: + xorg:fglrx_experimental_13 - ATI/AMD proprietary FGLRX graphics driver (**experimental** beta) (Proprietary, Disabled, Not in use) + xorg:fglrx_updates - ATI/AMD proprietary FGLRX graphics driver (post-release updates) (Proprietary, Enabled, Not in use) + MachineType: Hewlett-Packard DVT-ys002 + MarkForUpload: True + NonfreeKernelModules: fglrx + Package: xorg 1:7.6+12ubuntu2 + PackageArchitecture: amd64 + ProcEnviron: + TERM=xterm + SHELL=/bin/bash + PATH=(custom, no user) + LANG=en_US.UTF-8 + ProcKernelCmdLine: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-3.8.0-30-generic.efi.signed root=UUID=600f7c05-868f-479d-80a1-a96c33ce8ca5 ro quiet splash vt.handoff=7 + ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 3.8.0-30.44~precise1-generic 3.8.13.6 + Tags: precise running-unity ubuntu referred-by-support compiz-0.9 + Uname: Linux 3.8.0-30-generic x86_64 + UpgradeStatus: No upgrade log present (probably fresh install) + UserGroups: adm cdrom dip lpadmin plugdev sambashare sudo + dmi.bios.date: 01/07/2013 + dmi.bios.vendor: AMI + dmi.bios.version: 3.13H + dmi.board.asset.tag: 4CS247000Z + dmi.board.name: 2AF6 + dmi.board.vendor: Hewlett-Packard + dmi.board.version: 011 + dmi.chassis.asset.tag: 4CS247000Z + dmi.chassis.type: 3 + dmi.chassis.vendor: Hewlett-Packard + dmi.modalias: dmi:bvnAMI:bvr3.13H:bd01/07/2013:svnHewlett-Packard:pnDVT-ys002:pvr:rvnHewlett-Packard:rn2AF6:rvr011:cvnHewlett-Packard:ct3:cvr: + dmi.product.name: DVT-ys002 + dmi.sys.vendor: Hewlett-Packard + version.compiz: compiz 1:0.9.7.12-0ubuntu2 + version.fglrx-installer: fglrx-installer N/A + version.ia32-libs: ia32-libs N/A + version.libdrm2: libdrm2 2.4.43-0ubuntu0.0.2 + version.libgl1-mesa-dri: libgl1-mesa-dri N/A + version.libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental: libgl1-mesa-dri-experimental N/A + version.libgl1-mesa-glx: libgl1-mesa-glx N/A + version.xserver-xorg-core: xserver-xorg-core N/A + version.xserver-xorg-input-evdev: xserver-xorg-input-evdev N/A + version.xserver-xorg-video-ati: xserver-xorg-video-ati N/A + version.xserver-xorg-video-intel: xserver-xorg-video-intel N/A + version.xserver-xorg-video-nouveau: xserver-xorg-video-nouveau N/A -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xorg in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1231916 Title: AMD A6-5400k APU with Radeon HD 8600 - Failed to start X after Installation To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/1231916/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
