Re: German »Raute« (was: U+25CA LOZENGE)
Hi all, Philippe Verdy verd...@wanadoo.fr wrote: |2012/8/13 Otto Stolz otto.st...@uni-konstanz.de: | Hello, | | am 2012-08-13 20:48, schrieb Leif Halvard Silli: | | The word 'Raute' reminds of the Norwegian 'rute' - and my Norwegian | book on etymology assumes that 'rute' is derived from 'Raute'. The | Norwegian 'rute' may refer to a cell in a (data) table or in a square | board for chess. Such a 'rute' is of course a square. Perhaps German | 'Raute' has a similar possibility of being interpreted as square? |[.] | | In German, »Raute« is a synonym of »Rhombus«, i. e. | an equilateral quadrilateral. Hence, every »Raute« | is a »Quadrat« (square), but not vice versa. | (A square has also four equal angels.) | |Correction: |* Every »Quadrat« (square) is a »Raute« (Rhombus), a Rhombus/Raute |being not restricted to right angles. According to the german »Duden« ([0],[1]) a »Quadrat« has four angles of 90 degrees, whereas a Raute is described as a »schiefwinkliges gleichseitiges Viereck«, an «oblique-angled equilateral parallelogram». Of course , |* Every »Raute« (Rhombus) is also a lozenge,[.] And i would think that the other way is the more common one, i.e, Rhombus (Raute), because the geometrical form is »rhombisch« and it forms a »Rhomboid«. Steven [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duden [1] http://www.duden.de P.S.: Yes, germans; but i wouldn't count Btx since noone had it anyway.. That reminded me of the then minister of post Schwarz-Schilling, related by marriage to Sonnenschein batteries, and i always wondered why a small company without much research could gain lots of orders from major companies like Volkswagen.. But that ended in 1992 once he resigned, too. Unfortunately www.dict.cc shows a big relationship in between Raute/rhomb and Doppelkreuz/hash. I don't know if that means much though. Just one more vespiary.
Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 20:53 schrieb Hans Aberg: HA The German WP mentions that in the context of the now HA discontinued Bildschirmtext, it was called Raute: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelkreuz_(Satzzeichen) HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildschirmtext HA But otherwise, Raute is the same as English lozenge: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raute_(Symbol) In fact, I have heavily edited these Wikipedia articles in the last days, Before, they show a mess of Doppelkreuz, Raute, and Nummernzeichen When I started my current work on a keyboard related paper (which is the first time that I have to write for the general public, rather than for colleagues in the standardizing business), I started with a scheme: Doppelkreuz (literally: double cross) is the usual name for # as a character. Raute is: a. lozenge b. the viewdata square in the now discontinued Bildschirmtext (which roughly corresponds to Viewdata, Videotex or Prestel in other countries.) Nummernzeichen (literally: number sign) is a collective term for # and the Numero-Zeichen № U+2116 NUMERO SIGN, as using it specifically for # would cause confusion, as the # never was used for marking numbers except on desktop calculators, and the name in fact was used for the NUMERO SIGN also. Then, I extended and edited the Wikipedia articles according to this scheme. Now, after discussing this with several people, I learned that this scheme was too academic, as in fact everybody seems to call the # Raute. The word Raute otherwise is unused in colloquial German. You learn in math lessons that there is a geometric form called Rhombus (lozenge) which also can be called Raute, but in the class Rhombus is the preferred term. Raute also is the preferred term in heraldics, but used by the general public only when referring to the pattern of the Bavarian flag. (Besides, Raute is used in the name of some herbs, like Ruta graveolens, but also only by specialists.) The lozenge usually is called Karo in colloquial language (like the diamond suit on playing cards), and only Rhombus when it deviates too much from a square standing on its corner. Thus, when the # came as a new character to the general public with the keypad telephone in the 1970s, together with a name Raute which sounds not unknown and not really wrong, thus it got its way into the general public together with the # (which, as said, was formerly not used in Germany). Raute is e.g. used by customer services which you call when you have a question regarding your mobile phone, and you are told to press the lower right key on your telephone keypad. On the other hand, as far as I know now (and a DIN officer confirmed me this), there is no German standard which uses the term Raute. Thus, I probably will use the term Doppelkreuz but have to remark that I address the character commonly called Raute. As the discussion so far showed no evidence for any relevant general public use for the lozenge besides the subtotal on desktop calculators, I fortunately do not have to address this in depth. Thanks to all participants so far. - Karl
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Otto Stolz wrote: http://www.machsmit.de/media/mainteaser/header-ichwillserleben.png http://www.machsmit.de/kampagne/printmedien.php show what the braindead German DIN keyboard layout has done to the apostrophe (’): Killed by the acute accent (´). Andreas’ example does not present any evidence that an acute accent is involved. It could as well be a real U+2019 apostrophe, rendered in a slanted, sanserif font. As the text is presented in PNG, i. e. grafic, format, you really cannot tell the difference. You are typographically challenged. People who understand fonts better than you will recognize Helvetica Condensed Black Oblique. http://store1.adobe.com/type/browser/gifs/HLVQ/C_HLVQ-70019100.GIF http://www.fonts.com/font/adobe/helvetica/condensed-black-oblique It is really sad that even academic persons today cannot see the difference between an apostrophe (’) and an acute accent (´).
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Andreas Prilop prilop4...@trashmail.netwrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Otto Stolz wrote: http://www.machsmit.de/media/mainteaser/header-ichwillserleben.png http://www.machsmit.de/kampagne/printmedien.php show what the braindead German DIN keyboard layout has done to the apostrophe (’): Killed by the acute accent (´). Andreas’ example does not present any evidence that an acute accent is involved. It could as well be a real U+2019 apostrophe, rendered in a slanted, sanserif font. As the text is presented in PNG, i. e. grafic, format, you really cannot tell the difference. You are typographically challenged. People who understand fonts better than you will recognize Helvetica Condensed Black Oblique. http://store1.adobe.com/type/browser/gifs/HLVQ/C_HLVQ-70019100.GIF http://www.fonts.com/font/adobe/helvetica/condensed-black-oblique It is really sad that even academic persons today cannot see the difference between an apostrophe (’) and an acute accent (´). —Reply— Quite a shame indeed! (Agonistes!) The same kind of awkwardness exists in modern monotonic Greek writing, where the *tonos* (overtick, Knappen's *universal accent*) gets confused with the true *oxeia* (acute accent)! Much less, to have them confused—further still—with modern quotation marks and apostrophes... Robert Lloyd Wheelock International Symbolism Research Institute Augusta, ME U.S.A.
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:53 PM, Robert Wheelock rwhlk...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Andreas Prilop prilop4...@trashmail.netwrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Otto Stolz wrote: http://www.machsmit.de/media/mainteaser/header-ichwillserleben.png http://www.machsmit.de/kampagne/printmedien.php show what the braindead German DIN keyboard layout has done to the apostrophe (’): Killed by the acute accent (´). Andreas’ example does not present any evidence that an acute accent is involved. It could as well be a real U+2019 apostrophe, rendered in a slanted, sanserif font. As the text is presented in PNG, i. e. grafic, format, you really cannot tell the difference. You are typographically challenged. People who understand fonts better than you will recognize Helvetica Condensed Black Oblique. http://store1.adobe.com/type/browser/gifs/HLVQ/C_HLVQ-70019100.GIF http://www.fonts.com/font/adobe/helvetica/condensed-black-oblique It is really sad that even academic persons today cannot see the difference between an apostrophe (’) and an acute accent (´). —Reply— Quite a shame indeed! (Agonistes!) The same kind of awkwardness exists in modern monotonic Greek writing, where the *tonos* (overtick, Knappen's *universal accent*) gets confused with the true *oxeia* (acute accent)! Much less, to have them confused—further still—with modern quotation marks and apostrophes... Robert Lloyd Wheelock International Symbolism Research Institute Augusta, ME U.S.A. —Reply— The *tonos* (overtick) is a STRAIGHT 90º accent mark, whereas the *oxeia* (acute) is usually slanted at 45º. Robert Lloyd Wheelock International Symbolism Research Institute Augusta, ME U.S.A.
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Robert Wheelock rwhlk...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:53 PM, Robert Wheelock rwhlk...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Andreas Prilop prilop4...@trashmail.net wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Otto Stolz wrote: http://www.machsmit.de/media/mainteaser/header-ichwillserleben.png http://www.machsmit.de/kampagne/printmedien.php show what the braindead German DIN keyboard layout has done to the apostrophe (’): Killed by the acute accent (´). Andreas’ example does not present any evidence that an acute accent is involved. It could as well be a real U+2019 apostrophe, rendered in a slanted, sanserif font. As the text is presented in PNG, i. e. grafic, format, you really cannot tell the difference. You are typographically challenged. People who understand fonts better than you will recognize Helvetica Condensed Black Oblique. http://store1.adobe.com/type/browser/gifs/HLVQ/C_HLVQ-70019100.GIF http://www.fonts.com/font/adobe/helvetica/condensed-black-oblique It is really sad that even academic persons today cannot see the difference between an apostrophe (’) and an acute accent (´). —Reply— Quite a shame indeed! (Agonistes!) The same kind of awkwardness exists in modern monotonic Greek writing, where the *tonos* (overtick, Knappen's *universal accent*) gets confused with the true *oxeia* (acute accent)! Much less, to have them confused—further still—with modern quotation marks and apostrophes... Robert Lloyd Wheelock International Symbolism Research Institute Augusta, ME U.S.A. —Reply— The *tonos* (overtick) is a STRAIGHT 90º accent mark, whereas the *oxeia* (acute) is usually slanted at 45º. Robert Lloyd Wheelock International Symbolism Research Institute Augusta, ME U.S.A. —Reply— The proper angles for some overstruck (nonspacing) accent marks include: U+0300*vareia* (grave)135º U+0301*oxeia* (acute) 45º U+0302*perispomenē* (circumflex) a combination of a 45º acute with a 135º grave—being the union of the acute and the grave U+0304*makra* (macron) 0ºSTRAIGHT across U+030D*tonos* (overtick)90ºSTRAIGHT up-and-down *`**´**ˆ* *̄ ** ̍ * Robert Lloyd Wheelock International Symbolism Research Institute Augusta, ME U.S.A.
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
2012-08-14 22:56, Robert Wheelock wrote: The _tonos_ (overtick) is a STRAIGHT 90º accent mark, whereas the _oxeia_ (acute) is usually slanted at 45º. It is somewhat tragicomic that you make the mistake of using masculine ordinal indicator U+00BA in place of the degree sign U+00B0, when making a point on other distinctions that are often missed. And I’m afraid your description of the difference is somewhat exaggerated. Anyway, the tonos, the oxia (oxeia), and the acute accent have been unified, and it’s too late to change this. The distinction between them is, within the Unicode context, a stylistic issue. You can try to make rendering software vary the shape of this diacritic by the script of the base character, or by the language of the text. But you cannot make it a character-level difference. In practice, fonts often have a different diacritic in e.g. e with acute accent (é) than in alpha with tonos (ά), even though both have canonical decompositions with U+0301 combining acute accent. So the difference can be made at the font level. Yucca
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 03:56:23PM -0400, Robert Wheelock wrote: ... 90º ... 45º BTW, the degree sign is ° not the masculine ordinal indicator that you are using. Regards, Khaled
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard (was: U+25CA LOZENGE)
În data de Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:00:21 +0200, Otto Stolz a scris: DIN 2137 (from 1976) is for computers: These keyboards always had both the acute, and grave, accents, and the (ASCII) apostrophe. Yes, but they are defined as dead keys. I have a copy of the DIN 2137-2:2003-09 where at page 8 says this (for Group 1): === Taste in Position E12 (1 Ebene) Akut (b) (2 Ebene) Gravis (b) (b) Schriftzeichen mit Unterdrückung des Zeichenschrittes (Tottaste), siehe 3.9 === For sure it can be used as distinct character (in conjunction with space), but I find this a bit uncomfortable for usual writing. Cristi -- Cristian Secară http://www.secarica.ro
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
On 14 Aug 2012, at 21:52, Khaled Hosny wrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 03:56:23PM -0400, Robert Wheelock wrote: ... 90º ... 45º BTW, the degree sign is ° not the masculine ordinal indicator that you are using. :-) Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 22:00 schrieb Otto Stolz: OS am 2012-08-13 18:09, schrieb Andreas Prilop: ... show what the braindead German DIN keyboard layout has done to the apostrophe (’): Killed by the acute accent (´). OS DIN 2112 (from 1928) for mechanical typewriters had indeed no OS apostrophe key, due to lack of keys ... OS DIN 2137 (from 1976) is for computers: OS These keyboards always had both the acute, and grave, accents, OS and the (ASCII) apostrophe. In fact, even in 1985, PC keyboards did not have an apostrophe (see the last picture on the entry German keyboard layout in the English Wikipedia, showing the keyboard of the IBM portable PC). As far as I remember, I had to type the acute accent and then a space to get the ASCII apostrophe U+0027 (can somebody confirm this?). This means that especially elder Germans are used to type the acute key to get the apostrophe. When you do this on modern keyboards, you get U+00B4 ACUTE ACCENT, which deviates no more from the typographically correct U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK than the straight ASCII apostrophe U+0027, Thus, you live with it. It is an interesting fact that you see far more specimens of U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT used for the apostrophe. I suspect that for people who know (or have a feeling) that the typographically correct apostrophe starts into the down-right direction, this character appears more correct. When we extended the German keyboard recently in DIN 2137:2012, we assigned the typographically correct apostrophe to the prominent position AltGr + 1. Possibly, we will see more correct apostrophes when the new keyboard is on the market. But there is the possibility that the new forms have got established in the meantime, and a comma-shaped apostrophe will be regarded as old-fashioned and pedantic. - Karl
Re: Apostrophe, and DIN keyboard
This is not dramatic. French keyboards have a standard degree symbol on them, Spanish keyboards have the masculine ordinal. This character is often confused, just like notations of degrees/minutes/seconds using ASCII quotation marks instead of prime symbols. In an email not intended to be typographically rendered and not speaking about this character, let's be tolerant. We've all understood, there's no confusion given the context. 2012/8/14 Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com: On 14 Aug 2012, at 21:52, Khaled Hosny wrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 03:56:23PM -0400, Robert Wheelock wrote: ... 90º ... 45º BTW, the degree sign is ° not the masculine ordinal indicator that you are using. :-) Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Fwd: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Karl Pentzlin karl-pentz...@acssoft.de Date: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:04 PM Subject: Re: U+25CA LOZENGE - why is it in the Mac OS Roman character set (and therefore widespread in current fonts)? To: Robert Wheelock rwhlk...@gmail.com Dear Robert, you have sent the mail below to my private address but I presume that it was intended for the Unicode list. Please resend it to unicode@unicode.org. I will answer you there, as I in fact was engaged in that subject before. Best wishes Karl -- Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 10:14:21 PM, you wrote: RW On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 6:48 AM, Karl Pentzlin karl-pentz...@acssoft.de wrote: RW RW Am Montag, 13. August 2012 um 20:53 schrieb Hans Aberg: HA The German WP mentions that in the context of the now HA discontinued Bildschirmtext, it was called Raute: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelkreuz_(Satzzeichen) HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildschirmtext RW HA But otherwise, Raute is the same as English lozenge: HA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raute_(Symbol) RW RW In fact, I have heavily edited these Wikipedia articles in the last days, RW Before, they show a mess of Doppelkreuz, Raute, and Nummernzeichen RW When I started my current work on a keyboard related paper (which is RW the first time that I have to write for the general public, rather RW than for colleagues in the standardizing business), I started with RW a scheme: RW Doppelkreuz (literally: double cross) is the usual name for # RW as a character. RW Raute is: RW a. lozenge RW b. the viewdata square in the now discontinued Bildschirmtext RW(which roughly corresponds to Viewdata, Videotex or Prestel RW in other countries.) RW Nummernzeichen (literally: number sign) is a collective term for RW # and the Numero-Zeichen № U+2116 NUMERO SIGN, as using it RW specifically for # would cause confusion, as the # never was RW used for marking numbers except on desktop calculators, and the RW name in fact was used for the NUMERO SIGN also. RW Then, I extended and edited the Wikipedia articles according to this RW scheme. RW Now, after discussing this with several people, I learned that this RW scheme was too academic, as in fact everybody seems to call the # RW Raute. The word Raute otherwise is unused in colloquial German. RW You learn in math lessons that there is a geometric form called RW Rhombus (lozenge) which also can be called Raute, but in the class RW Rhombus is the preferred term. Raute also is the preferred term in RW heraldics, but used by the general public only when referring to the RW pattern of the Bavarian flag. (Besides, Raute is used in the name RW of some herbs, like Ruta graveolens, but also only by specialists.) RW The lozenge usually is called Karo in colloquial language (like the RW diamond suit on playing cards), and only Rhombus when it deviates RW too much from a square standing on its corner. RW Thus, when the # came as a new character to the general public RW with the keypad telephone in the 1970s, together with a name Raute RW which sounds not unknown and not really wrong, thus it got its way RW into the general public together with the # (which, as said, was RW formerly not used in Germany). RW Raute is e.g. used by customer services which you call when you have RW a question regarding your mobile phone, and you are told to press the RW lower right key on your telephone keypad. RW On the other hand, as far as I know now (and a DIN officer confirmed RW me this), there is no German standard which uses the term Raute. RW RW Thus, I probably will use the term Doppelkreuz but have to remark RW that I address the character commonly called Raute. As the RW discussion so far showed no evidence for any relevant general public RW use for the lozenge besides the subtotal on desktop calculators, RW I fortunately do not have to address this in depth. RW Thanks to all participants so far. RW RW - Karl RW —Reply— RW The old Dutch florin/guilder sign should be DISUNIFIED from RW U+0192, the f with the leftwards-downsweeping tail used by the RW IAI (International African Institute) for the voiceless bilabial RW fricative, IPA /ɸ/. I've moved the florin/guilder over to the RW Private Use Zone—at codepoint U+E511—in my ISRI Series Fonts (forthcoming). RW Robert Lloyd Wheelock RW International Symbolism Research Institute RW Augusta, ME U.S.A.
