Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
If it was encoded in Unicode, it would use a single column and the encoding seems evident: x0 = MASONIC SQUARE SPACE x1 = MASONIC SYMBOL A B OR ONE x2 = MASONIC SYMBOL C D OR TWO x3 = MASONIC SYMBOL E F OR THREE x4 = MASONIC SYMBOL G H OR FOUR x5 = MASONIC SYMBOL I L OR ZERO FIVE x6 = MASONIC SYMBOL M N OR SIX x7 = MASONIC SYMBOL O P OR SEVEN x8 = MASONIC SYMBOL Q R OR EIGHT x9 = MASONIC SYMBOL S T OR NINE xA = MASONIC SYMBOL U J xB = MASONIC SYMBOL X K xC = MASONIC SYMBOL Y V xD = MASONIC SYMBOL Z W xE = MASONIC COMBINING DOT xF = MASONIC COMBINING DOUBLE DOT (?) Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 04:21, Garth Wallace via Unicode a écrit : > I learned that one as a kid, as the "pigpen cipher". I'm not aware of any > numerological significance (which is easy enough to "find" in anything). > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 7:43 PM Philippe Verdy via Unicode < > unicode@unicode.org> wrote: > >> More interesting: the Masonic alphabet >> http://tallermasonico.com/0diccio1.htm >> >> - 18 letters of the Latin alphabet (or Hebrew), from A to T (excluding J >> and K), are disposed by group of 2 letters in a 3x3 square grid, whose >> global outer sides are not marked on the outer border of the grid but on >> lines separating columns or rows. Then letters are noted by the marked >> sides of the square in which they are located, the second letter of the >> group being distinguished by adding a dot in the middle of the square. >> - The 4 other letters U to Z (excluding V and W) are noted by disposing >> them on a 2x2 square grid (this time rotated 45 degrees), whose global >> outer sides are also not marked on the outer border of the grid but on >> lines separating columns or rows (only 1 letter is places by cell). >> They are also noted by the marked sides of their square only.- Finally (if >> needed) the missing letters J, K, V, W use the same 4 last glyphs, but are >> distinguished by adding the central dot. >> >> >>AB | CD | EF >> --+-+- >>GH | I L | MN >> --+-+- >>OP | QR | ST >> >> \ XK / >> UJ > < WZ >> / YV \ >> >> >> So: >> - "A" becomes approximately "_|" >> - "B" becomes approximately "_|" with central dot >> - "U" becomes approximately ">" >> - "X" becomes approximately "\/" >> - "J" is noted like "I" as a square, or distinctly approximately as ">" >> with a central dot >> >> The 3x3 grid had some esoterical meaning based on numerology (a legend >> now propaged by scientology). >> >> >> Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 02:59, Philippe Verdy a >> écrit : >> >>> Do you speak about this one? >>> https://www.magisterdaire.com/magister-symbol-black-sq/ >>> It looks like a graphic personal signature for the author of this >>> esoteric book, even if it looks like an interesting composition of several >>> of our existing Unicode symbols, glued together in a vertical ligature, >>> rather than a pure combining sequence. >>> Such technics can be used extensively to create lot of other symbols, by >>> gluing any kind of wellknown glyphs for standard characters. >>> Mathematics and technologies (but also companies for their private >>> corporate logos and branding marks) are constantly inventing new symbols >>> like this. >>> >>> >>> Le sam. 27 oct. 2018 à 22:01, James Kass via Unicode < >>> unicode@unicode.org> a écrit : >>> Mr͇ / M=ͬ An image search for "magister symbol" finds many interesting graphics, but I couldn't find any resembling the abreviation shown on the post card. (Magister symbol appears to be popular for certain religious and gaming uses.)
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
So in summary this Masonic "alphabet" uses 13 square "letters" and a single combining mark (the central dot), possibly extended with the minus and plus signs and space. It's possible that the central dot is used as a spacing mark to note a punctuation. The assignment of Latin (or Hebrew) letters to this alphabet varies (just like Braille symbols depending on languages/scripts) It may have extensions (like Braille outside its basic 2x3 patterns of dots), such as a second dot in squares, horizontally as "··" or vertically as ":" Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 03:40, Philippe Verdy a écrit : > More interesting: the Masonic alphabet > http://tallermasonico.com/0diccio1.htm > > - 18 letters of the Latin alphabet (or Hebrew), from A to T (excluding J > and K), are disposed by group of 2 letters in a 3x3 square grid, whose > global outer sides are not marked on the outer border of the grid but on > lines separating columns or rows. Then letters are noted by the marked > sides of the square in which they are located, the second letter of the > group being distinguished by adding a dot in the middle of the square. > - The 4 other letters U to Z (excluding V and W) are noted by disposing > them on a 2x2 square grid (this time rotated 45 degrees), whose global > outer sides are also not marked on the outer border of the grid but on > lines separating columns or rows (only 1 letter is places by cell). > They are also noted by the marked sides of their square only.- Finally (if > needed) the missing letters J, K, V, W use the same 4 last glyphs, but are > distinguished by adding the central dot. > > >AB | CD | EF > --+-+- >GH | I L | MN > --+-+- >OP | QR | ST > > \ XK / > UJ > < WZ > / YV \ > > > So: > - "A" becomes approximately "_|" > - "B" becomes approximately "_|" with central dot > - "U" becomes approximately ">" > - "X" becomes approximately "\/" > - "J" is noted like "I" as a square, or distinctly approximately as ">" > with a central dot > > The 3x3 grid had some esoterical meaning based on numerology (a legend now > propaged by scientology). > > > Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 02:59, Philippe Verdy a > écrit : > >> Do you speak about this one? >> https://www.magisterdaire.com/magister-symbol-black-sq/ >> It looks like a graphic personal signature for the author of this >> esoteric book, even if it looks like an interesting composition of several >> of our existing Unicode symbols, glued together in a vertical ligature, >> rather than a pure combining sequence. >> Such technics can be used extensively to create lot of other symbols, by >> gluing any kind of wellknown glyphs for standard characters. >> Mathematics and technologies (but also companies for their private >> corporate logos and branding marks) are constantly inventing new symbols >> like this. >> >> >> Le sam. 27 oct. 2018 à 22:01, James Kass via Unicode >> a écrit : >> >>> >>> Mr͇ / M=ͬ >>> >>> An image search for "magister symbol" finds many interesting graphics, >>> but I couldn't find any resembling the abreviation shown on the post >>> card. (Magister symbol appears to be popular for certain religious and >>> gaming uses.) >>> >>>
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
I learned that one as a kid, as the "pigpen cipher". I'm not aware of any numerological significance (which is easy enough to "find" in anything). On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 7:43 PM Philippe Verdy via Unicode < unicode@unicode.org> wrote: > More interesting: the Masonic alphabet > http://tallermasonico.com/0diccio1.htm > > - 18 letters of the Latin alphabet (or Hebrew), from A to T (excluding J > and K), are disposed by group of 2 letters in a 3x3 square grid, whose > global outer sides are not marked on the outer border of the grid but on > lines separating columns or rows. Then letters are noted by the marked > sides of the square in which they are located, the second letter of the > group being distinguished by adding a dot in the middle of the square. > - The 4 other letters U to Z (excluding V and W) are noted by disposing > them on a 2x2 square grid (this time rotated 45 degrees), whose global > outer sides are also not marked on the outer border of the grid but on > lines separating columns or rows (only 1 letter is places by cell). > They are also noted by the marked sides of their square only.- Finally (if > needed) the missing letters J, K, V, W use the same 4 last glyphs, but are > distinguished by adding the central dot. > > >AB | CD | EF > --+-+- >GH | I L | MN > --+-+- >OP | QR | ST > > \ XK / > UJ > < WZ > / YV \ > > > So: > - "A" becomes approximately "_|" > - "B" becomes approximately "_|" with central dot > - "U" becomes approximately ">" > - "X" becomes approximately "\/" > - "J" is noted like "I" as a square, or distinctly approximately as ">" > with a central dot > > The 3x3 grid had some esoterical meaning based on numerology (a legend now > propaged by scientology). > > > Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 02:59, Philippe Verdy a > écrit : > >> Do you speak about this one? >> https://www.magisterdaire.com/magister-symbol-black-sq/ >> It looks like a graphic personal signature for the author of this >> esoteric book, even if it looks like an interesting composition of several >> of our existing Unicode symbols, glued together in a vertical ligature, >> rather than a pure combining sequence. >> Such technics can be used extensively to create lot of other symbols, by >> gluing any kind of wellknown glyphs for standard characters. >> Mathematics and technologies (but also companies for their private >> corporate logos and branding marks) are constantly inventing new symbols >> like this. >> >> >> Le sam. 27 oct. 2018 à 22:01, James Kass via Unicode >> a écrit : >> >>> >>> Mr͇ / M=ͬ >>> >>> An image search for "magister symbol" finds many interesting graphics, >>> but I couldn't find any resembling the abreviation shown on the post >>> card. (Magister symbol appears to be popular for certain religious and >>> gaming uses.) >>> >>>
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
I must add that the Masonic 3x3 grid alphabet has been proposed as an alternative to Braille, easier to learn and memoize, easier and faster to draw with a pen on paper without any physical guide, and easier also to recognize using only tactile contact by a finger tip, but more difficult to form without cutting the sheet of paper while tracing the strokes. But it was seen on some manufactured Masonic objects. To note digits with the same shapes (like does Braille with its 2x3 dots grid), the same 3x3 grid is used for digits 1 to 9 (digit 0 uses the same square where it is significant as 5, but with a central dot, or use a space), but additional symbols "+" and "-" are used (without central dot) to switch between letters and digits. The placement of digits 1 to 9 (except 0 and 5) on the 3x3 grid varies (horizontally first, or vertically first). Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 03:40, Philippe Verdy a écrit : > More interesting: the Masonic alphabet > http://tallermasonico.com/0diccio1.htm > > - 18 letters of the Latin alphabet (or Hebrew), from A to T (excluding J > and K), are disposed by group of 2 letters in a 3x3 square grid, whose > global outer sides are not marked on the outer border of the grid but on > lines separating columns or rows. Then letters are noted by the marked > sides of the square in which they are located, the second letter of the > group being distinguished by adding a dot in the middle of the square. > - The 4 other letters U to Z (excluding V and W) are noted by disposing > them on a 2x2 square grid (this time rotated 45 degrees), whose global > outer sides are also not marked on the outer border of the grid but on > lines separating columns or rows (only 1 letter is places by cell). > They are also noted by the marked sides of their square only.- Finally (if > needed) the missing letters J, K, V, W use the same 4 last glyphs, but are > distinguished by adding the central dot. > > >AB | CD | EF > --+-+- >GH | I L | MN > --+-+- >OP | QR | ST > > \ XK / > UJ > < WZ > / YV \ > > > So: > - "A" becomes approximately "_|" > - "B" becomes approximately "_|" with central dot > - "U" becomes approximately ">" > - "X" becomes approximately "\/" > - "J" is noted like "I" as a square, or distinctly approximately as ">" > with a central dot > > The 3x3 grid had some esoterical meaning based on numerology (a legend now > propaged by scientology). > > > Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 02:59, Philippe Verdy a > écrit : > >> Do you speak about this one? >> https://www.magisterdaire.com/magister-symbol-black-sq/ >> It looks like a graphic personal signature for the author of this >> esoteric book, even if it looks like an interesting composition of several >> of our existing Unicode symbols, glued together in a vertical ligature, >> rather than a pure combining sequence. >> Such technics can be used extensively to create lot of other symbols, by >> gluing any kind of wellknown glyphs for standard characters. >> Mathematics and technologies (but also companies for their private >> corporate logos and branding marks) are constantly inventing new symbols >> like this. >> >> >> Le sam. 27 oct. 2018 à 22:01, James Kass via Unicode >> a écrit : >> >>> >>> Mr͇ / M=ͬ >>> >>> An image search for "magister symbol" finds many interesting graphics, >>> but I couldn't find any resembling the abreviation shown on the post >>> card. (Magister symbol appears to be popular for certain religious and >>> gaming uses.) >>> >>>
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
More interesting: the Masonic alphabet http://tallermasonico.com/0diccio1.htm - 18 letters of the Latin alphabet (or Hebrew), from A to T (excluding J and K), are disposed by group of 2 letters in a 3x3 square grid, whose global outer sides are not marked on the outer border of the grid but on lines separating columns or rows. Then letters are noted by the marked sides of the square in which they are located, the second letter of the group being distinguished by adding a dot in the middle of the square. - The 4 other letters U to Z (excluding V and W) are noted by disposing them on a 2x2 square grid (this time rotated 45 degrees), whose global outer sides are also not marked on the outer border of the grid but on lines separating columns or rows (only 1 letter is places by cell). They are also noted by the marked sides of their square only.- Finally (if needed) the missing letters J, K, V, W use the same 4 last glyphs, but are distinguished by adding the central dot. AB | CD | EF --+-+- GH | I L | MN --+-+- OP | QR | ST \ XK / UJ > < WZ / YV \ So: - "A" becomes approximately "_|" - "B" becomes approximately "_|" with central dot - "U" becomes approximately ">" - "X" becomes approximately "\/" - "J" is noted like "I" as a square, or distinctly approximately as ">" with a central dot The 3x3 grid had some esoterical meaning based on numerology (a legend now propaged by scientology). Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 02:59, Philippe Verdy a écrit : > Do you speak about this one? > https://www.magisterdaire.com/magister-symbol-black-sq/ > It looks like a graphic personal signature for the author of this esoteric > book, even if it looks like an interesting composition of several of our > existing Unicode symbols, glued together in a vertical ligature, rather > than a pure combining sequence. > Such technics can be used extensively to create lot of other symbols, by > gluing any kind of wellknown glyphs for standard characters. > Mathematics and technologies (but also companies for their private > corporate logos and branding marks) are constantly inventing new symbols > like this. > > > Le sam. 27 oct. 2018 à 22:01, James Kass via Unicode > a écrit : > >> >> Mr͇ / M=ͬ >> >> An image search for "magister symbol" finds many interesting graphics, >> but I couldn't find any resembling the abreviation shown on the post >> card. (Magister symbol appears to be popular for certain religious and >> gaming uses.) >> >>
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
Do you speak about this one? https://www.magisterdaire.com/magister-symbol-black-sq/ It looks like a graphic personal signature for the author of this esoteric book, even if it looks like an interesting composition of several of our existing Unicode symbols, glued together in a vertical ligature, rather than a pure combining sequence. Such technics can be used extensively to create lot of other symbols, by gluing any kind of wellknown glyphs for standard characters. Mathematics and technologies (but also companies for their private corporate logos and branding marks) are constantly inventing new symbols like this. Le sam. 27 oct. 2018 à 22:01, James Kass via Unicode a écrit : > > Mr͇ / M=ͬ > > An image search for "magister symbol" finds many interesting graphics, > but I couldn't find any resembling the abreviation shown on the post > card. (Magister symbol appears to be popular for certain religious and > gaming uses.) > >
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
Mr͇ / M=ͬ An image search for "magister symbol" finds many interesting graphics, but I couldn't find any resembling the abreviation shown on the post card. (Magister symbol appears to be popular for certain religious and gaming uses.)
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
Le sam. 27 oct. 2018 à 15:06, Asmus Freytag via Unicode a écrit : > First question is: how do you interpret the symbol? For me it is > definitely the capital M followed by the superscript "r" (written in an > old style no longer used in Poland), but there is something below the > superscript. It looks like a small "z", but such an interpretation > doesn't make sense for me. > > My suspicion would be that the small "z" is rather a "=" that acquired a > connecting stroke as part of quick handwriting. > I have the same kind of reading, the zigzagging stroek is an hnadwritten emphasis of the uperscript r above it (explicitly noting it is terminating the abbreviation), jut like the small underline that happens sometimes below the superscript o in the abbreviation of "numero" (as well sometimes there was not just one but two small underlines, including in some prints). This sample is a perfect example of fast cursive handwritting (due to high variability of all other letter shapes, sizes and joinings, where even the capital M is written as two unconnected strokes), and it's not abnormal to see in such condition this cursive joining between the two underlining strokes so that it looks like a single zigzag.
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
On Sat, Oct 27 2018 at 5:58 -0700, Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote: [...] > My suspicion would be that the small "z" is rather a "=" that acquired > a connecting stroke as part of quick handwriting. You must be right. In the meantime I looked up some other postcards written by the same person i found several other abbreviation including № 'NUMERO SIGN' (U+2116) written in the same way, i.e. with a double instead of a single line. So we have a consensus about how to interpret the sign, but there are still open questions about the scope of its usage, and its encoding. Thanks one again to all who contributed to the discussion. Best regards Janusz -- , Janusz S. Bien emeryt (emeritus) https://sites.google.com/view/jsbien
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
On Sat, Oct 27 2018 at 16:32 +0200, rein wrote: > Janusz, > > "wszystkimi m(oj)ami rączki" some sort of plural instrumentalis :) Rather "moimi", although still the phrase sounds strange. > "embracing you with all my hands/arms" Now "kiss" (całować) and "embrace" (obejmować) are strictly separated, but perhaps 100 years ago it was differently. Bess regards Janusz P.S. This discussion is completely of the topic of the list, but I'm very greatful for the help received on and off the list. -- , Janusz S. Bien emeryt (emeritus) https://sites.google.com/view/jsbien
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
Janusz, "wszystkimi m(oj)ami rączki" some sort of plural instrumentalis :) "embracing you with all my hands/arms" pozdrawiam, Rein Op Sat, 27 Oct 2018 15:09:35 +0200 schreef Janusz S. Bień : On Sat, Oct 27 2018 at 14:36 +0200, rein wrote: Janusz, reminds me of the "numero sign " Yes, that's definitely similar. I tried to read the letter but couldn't manage to all the way ;) Congratulation, you have done it better than me! Droga i Kochana Wiriańko Rather "Wisieńko": "Ludwika" -> "Ludwisieńka" ->"Wisieńka" załączam Ci z tą fotografiją list Staszki - odpisałem już jej też. co u Was więcej słychać żadnych jeszcze ni mam odpowiedzi I didn't recognized "odpowiedzi". ze znanych Ci miejscowoci ?adresować? "Adresować" makes sense, although some letters seem missing. do Staszki jak tyś chciała pisać (W.Pan Mr Michał Gałkiewicz Feldspital 411 Feldpost 380.) Mr znaczy Magister. On przy tem szpitalu aptekarzem. całuję Cię ze wargatkiem I read this "wszystkiemi". Mami I can't guess a word which would make sense of this phrase... rączki Twój Kochający Włodek 12/9 917 pozdrawiam, Rein Nawzajem :-) Sat, 27 Oct 2018 13:10:20 +0200 schreef Janusz S. Bień via Unicode : [...] The second question is: are you familiar with such or a similar symbol? Have you ever seen it in print? The postcard is from the front of the first WW written by an Austro-Hungarian soldier. He explaines the meaning of the abbreviation to his wife, so looks like the abbreviation was used but not very popular. The third and the last question is: how to encode this symbol in Unicode? I've got a comment to this question off the list, but I'm waiting to see more opinions. Best regards Janusz P.S. I subscribe the list in the digest form but I look up the archive - I think Asmus Freytag interpretation is the correct one (similar interpretation was suggested also of the list). -- Gemaakt met Opera's e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
On Sat, Oct 27 2018 at 14:36 +0200, rein wrote: > Janusz, > > reminds me of the "numero sign " Yes, that's definitely similar. > > I tried to read the letter but couldn't manage to all the way ;) Congratulation, you have done it better than me! > > Droga i Kochana Wiriańko Rather "Wisieńko": "Ludwika" -> "Ludwisieńka" ->"Wisieńka" > > załaczam Ci z tą fotografiją list Staszki - odpisałem już jej też. co > u Was więcej słychać żadnych jeszcze ni mam odpowiedzi I didn't recognized "odpowiedzi". >ze znanych Ci miejscowoci ?adresować? "Adresować" makes sense, although some letters seem missing. > do Staszki jak tyś chciała pisać >(W.Pan Mr Michał Gałkiewicz Feldspital 411 Feldpost 380.) Mr znaczy >Magister. On przy tem szpitalu aptekarzem. całuję Cię ze wargatkiem I read this "wszystkiemi". >Mami I can't guess a word which would make sense of this phrase... > rączki Twój Kochający Włodek 12/9 917 > > pozdrawiam, Rein Nawzajem :-) > > Sat, 27 Oct 2018 13:10:20 +0200 schreef Janusz S. Bień via Unicode > : [...] >> The second question is: are you familiar with such or a similar symbol? >> Have you ever seen it in print? The postcard is from the front of the first WW written by an Austro-Hungarian soldier. He explaines the meaning of the abbreviation to his wife, so looks like the abbreviation was used but not very popular. >> >> The third and the last question is: how to encode this symbol in >> Unicode? I've got a comment to this question off the list, but I'm waiting to see more opinions. Best regards Janusz P.S. I subscribe the list in the digest form but I look up the archive - I think Asmus Freytag interpretation is the correct one (similar interpretation was suggested also of the list). -- , Janusz S. Bien emeryt (emeritus) https://sites.google.com/view/jsbien
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
On 10/27/2018 4:10 AM, Janusz S. Bień via Unicode wrote: Hi! On the over 100 years old postcard https://photos.app.goo.gl/GbwNwYbEQMjZaFgE6 you can see 2 occurences of a symbol which is explicitely explained (in Polish) as meaning "Magister". First question is: how do you interpret the symbol? For me it is definitely the capital M followed by the superscript "r" (written in an old style no longer used in Poland), but there is something below the superscript. It looks like a small "z", but such an interpretation doesn't make sense for me. The second question is: are you familiar with such or a similar symbol? Have you ever seen it in print? The third and the last question is: how to encode this symbol in Unicode? Best regards Janusz My suspicion would be that the small "z" is rather a "=" that acquired a connecting stroke as part of quick handwriting. A./
Re: A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
Janusz, reminds me of the "numero sign " I tried to read the letter but couldn't manage to all the way ;) Droga i Kochana Wiriańko załaczam Ci z tą fotografiją list Staszki - odpisałem już jej też. co u Was więcej słychać żadnych jeszcze ni mam odpowiedzi ze znanych Ci miejscowoci ?adresować? do Staszki jak tyś chciała pisać (W.Pan Mr Michał Gałkiewicz Feldspital 411 Feldpost 380.) Mr znaczy Magister. On przy tem szpitalu aptekarzem. całuję Cię ze wargatkiem Mami rączki Twój Kochający Włodek 12/9 917 pozdrawiam, Rein Sat, 27 Oct 2018 13:10:20 +0200 schreef Janusz S. Bień via Unicode : Hi! On the over 100 years old postcard https://photos.app.goo.gl/GbwNwYbEQMjZaFgE6 you can see 2 occurences of a symbol which is explicitely explained (in Polish) as meaning "Magister". First question is: how do you interpret the symbol? For me it is definitely the capital M followed by the superscript "r" (written in an old style no longer used in Poland), but there is something below the superscript. It looks like a small "z", but such an interpretation doesn't make sense for me. The second question is: are you familiar with such or a similar symbol? Have you ever seen it in print? The third and the last question is: how to encode this symbol in Unicode? Best regards Janusz -- Gemaakt met Opera's e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/
A sign/abbreviation for "magister"
Hi! On the over 100 years old postcard https://photos.app.goo.gl/GbwNwYbEQMjZaFgE6 you can see 2 occurences of a symbol which is explicitely explained (in Polish) as meaning "Magister". First question is: how do you interpret the symbol? For me it is definitely the capital M followed by the superscript "r" (written in an old style no longer used in Poland), but there is something below the superscript. It looks like a small "z", but such an interpretation doesn't make sense for me. The second question is: are you familiar with such or a similar symbol? Have you ever seen it in print? The third and the last question is: how to encode this symbol in Unicode? Best regards Janusz -- , Janusz S. Bien emeryt (emeritus) https://sites.google.com/view/jsbien
