Re: On the lack of a SQUARE TB glyph
Fred, 2 hours and 33 minutes from now (today). But you don't need to try to synch a proposal like this to a particular script ad hoc meeting. That group meets roughly once a month, and any new proposal coming in right now wouldn't be on the Unicode 13.0 train, even if the UTC immediately agreed to it. So there isn't an immediately urgent deadline for new proposals. --Ken On 9/26/2019 10:15 PM, Fred Brennan via Unicode wrote: When does the Script Ad Hoc meet next?
Re: On the lack of a SQUARE TB glyph
> * Does the existence of the legacy Adobe encoding Adobe-Japan1-6 shift the > balance? It has a SQUARE TB at CID+8306. The code point suggests that it was already there as early as Adobe-Japan1-1 in 1993. The fact makes it seem certainly weird why it hasn't been included like its fellows nearby. Perhaps it could be used as a rationale that this character is erroneously missing. > * Should I also propose SQUARE PB up to SQUARE YB? At the very least SQUARE PB > in datacenter settings seems useful. It does not however imply that squared *B things have some general needs. The situation is very different than that of Reiwa. U+32FF wasn't added for commemorative purpose, but is a critical requirement of some legacy systems that hardcoded those squared eras as time control characters, lest they fall into a Y2019 problem without a new era symbol (that's why Unicode announced the code point far before the real era name came out). From what I heard, even the Japanese government hadn't recognized the problem in the first place but MS or somebody listened to their clients and choosed to encode it. So far I don't believe there's a real need because I don't know a case that KB, MB... are used outside representational purpose, but I may be wrong. 2019年9月27日(金) 14:17 Fred Brennan via Unicode : > > I'm sorry to write twice to the list but after some discussion on Twitter it > is certain I'm going to write a request. > > I only have two lingering questions. > > * Does the existence of the legacy Adobe encoding Adobe-Japan1-6 shift the > balance? It has a SQUARE TB at CID+8306. > > https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/font/pdfs/5078.Adobe-Japan1-6.pdf > > * Should I also propose SQUARE PB up to SQUARE YB? At the very least SQUARE PB > in datacenter settings seems useful. > > (I emailed Dr. Ken Lunde with these questions, but he's on vacation until the > next meeting of the UTC. Does anyone know how much time I have before the > agenda closes? When does the Script Ad Hoc meet next?) > > >
Re: On the lack of a SQUARE TB glyph
On 2019-09-27, David Starner via Unicode wrote: > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 8:57 PM Fred Brennan via Unicode > wrote: [snip] >> There is no sequence of glyphs that could be logically mapped, unless you're >> telling me to request that the sequence T B be recommended for general >> interchange as SQUARE TB? That's silly. > > Why is that silly? You've got an unbounded set of these; even the base > prefixes EPTGMkhdmμnp (and da) crossed with bBmglWsAKNJCΩT (plus a > bunch more), which is over 200 combinations without all the units, and > there's some exponents encoded, so some of those will need to be > encoded with exponents. And that's far from a complete list of what > people might want as squares. Wouldn't T B be a better sequence? In fact, it would have been nice (expecially for mathematicians) if all combining marks could have been applied to character sequences, by means of some "high precedence ZWJ" that binds more tightly than combination. (Playing devil's advocate here, since I don't think maths is plain text:) Or one could allow IDS to have leaf components that are any characters, not just ideographic characters, and then one could have all sorts of fun.
Re: On the lack of a SQUARE TB glyph
On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 8:57 PM Fred Brennan via Unicode wrote: > The purpose of Unicode is plaintext encoding, is it not? The square TB form is > fundamentally no different than the square form of Reiwa, U+32FF ㋿, which was > added in a hurry. The difference is that SQUARE TB's necessity and use is a > slow thing which happened over years, not all of a sudden via one announcement > of the Japanese government. Defining whether a pair of characters gets squeezed into one square is hardly a plaintext issue. The square form of Reiwa is a bit different, given its use in printing time, where there may have been an expectation that it takes up one square. It's also a new member of a tiny set, as opposed to SQUARE TB, which people have been using already in various ways. > New emoji are still being encoded. The existence of SQUARE GB leads to its > use, which then leads to people wanting SQUARE TB and resorting to hacks to > get it done. If you didn't want people to request more square forms you > shouldn't have encoded any at all. It's too late for that. It's unlikely that not encoding wouldn't have stopped the requests from coming, and it's not too late for them to dismiss those requests. Unicode, in order to become the one character set, had to become backward compatible with all the major legacy character sets out there. Unicode has piles and piles of frustrating compromises because of that, but it was felt that was the cost that had to be paid. > There is no sequence of glyphs that could be logically mapped, unless you're > telling me to request that the sequence T B be recommended for general > interchange as SQUARE TB? That's silly. Why is that silly? You've got an unbounded set of these; even the base prefixes EPTGMkhdmμnp (and da) crossed with bBmglWsAKNJCΩT (plus a bunch more), which is over 200 combinations without all the units, and there's some exponents encoded, so some of those will need to be encoded with exponents. And that's far from a complete list of what people might want as squares. -- Kie ekzistas vivo, ekzistas espero.
Re: On the lack of a SQUARE TB glyph
On 2019-09-27 5:15 AM, Fred Brennan via Unicode wrote: I only have two lingering questions. * Does the existence of the legacy Adobe encoding Adobe-Japan1-6 shift the balance? It has a SQUARE TB at CID+8306. https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/font/pdfs/5078.Adobe-Japan1-6.pdf That character set also has other items not in Unicode such as numbers enclosed in squares from "0" and "00" through "100" and fractions like 3/7 and 10/11. It was published in 2008, so it might not be considered as "legacy".
