Re: Can anyone help me!!!
hi, can't i use unicode to generate and show the fonts in any browser irrespective of their support to unicode!. like by writing plugin or something like this. and when a user with browser which doesn't support unicode like to access that webpage. he/she needs to install that plugin. will it be possible On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Yung-Fong Tang wrote: Antoine Leca wrote: sanatan mohanty wrote: i have a project to make a webpage, which will be unicode enable. Good. i can show indian language fonts. i can type those fonts on the webpage itself on text boxes!. Ah! How do you do that? Or do you mean "would/should" instead? and it should be atleast work on netscape and windows explorer!, and atleast LINUX and Windows OS supports it!. I am not aware that Netscape, even in version 6, is able to display Indian sentences encoded in Unicode (although it is able to display individual characters). The problem is in the rendering (displaying) of the conjuncts, and the reordering of the left-positionned matra's. Does Netscape6 on Win2K have this problem ? If so, can you put together a test page for us? We know there are problem when we try to select the conjuncts. However, since we use TextOutW, in theory the TextOutW should handle conjuncts and handle the reording of the left-positionned matra's. so, can u people give me some brief ideas abt keyboard mapping, Keyboard layout is unrelated to the problem. You can use whatever you want (or are comfortable with). However, you certainly need a Unicode-able editor. Very few of them are Indian-enabled (Microsoft are the best choice, but are not the cheaper, particularly since it pratically needs Win2000). unicode font setting, There are very few Indian "Unicode" fonts for the moment. And even less work with X11/Linux. In fact, I am not aware of any such a font. Which is the main reason why I ask the questions above. dispay setting What do you mean with display setting? The display setting is on the the client side. You are not going to have any form of control on this setting... (and no, I do not like browsing a web site and encountering a page that says "please, change over all your settings in order to browse my site"; actually, I often switch away). Antoine
RE: Can anyone help me!!!
Hi, Writing a plugin would not be enough. There are quite a few issues to deal with when rendering Indian text in a browser without Unicode support (as you all know). I assume that you are looking for a solution that works for more than just one browser on one platform!? Some browser may neither support Unicode text encoding formats (e.g. utf-8), nor rendering of 16-bit characters. Also they would probably not be able to deal with the complex character shaping and positioning and text direction issues found in Indian and other languages. Some browsers do not support downloading (partial) fonts yet, so these browsers may not be able to show the text even if they did support Unicode. There are other issues as well It's not impossible to solve these problems though, but it is *very* hard. We (at BorWare AB) are working on a product with which we intend to support Unicode, CSS level 2 and font embedding on many platforms and browsers. Specifically, it will support Indian Unicode fonts (OpenType Layout) and non-Unicode Indian fonts (TT, T1, etc) in IE 4.x, IE 5.x, Nav 4.x, Nav 6.x, Op4, WebTV on (non-Indian) Windows, Unix, Mac. It's being beta tested right now and should be available sometime next year... Regards, - Michael -Original Message- From: sanatan mohanty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 5:33 PM To: Unicode List Cc: Unicode List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Can anyone help me!!! hi, can't i use unicode to generate and show the fonts in any browser irrespective of their support to unicode!. like by writing plugin or something like this. and when a user with browser which doesn't support unicode like to access that webpage. he/she needs to install that plugin. will it be possible On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Yung-Fong Tang wrote: Antoine Leca wrote: sanatan mohanty wrote: i have a project to make a webpage, which will be unicode enable. Good. i can show indian language fonts. i can type those fonts on the webpage itself on text boxes!. Ah! How do you do that? Or do you mean "would/should" instead? and it should be atleast work on netscape and windows explorer!, and atleast LINUX and Windows OS supports it!. I am not aware that Netscape, even in version 6, is able to display Indian sentences encoded in Unicode (although it is able to display individual characters). The problem is in the rendering (displaying) of the conjuncts, and the reordering of the left-positionned matra's. Does Netscape6 on Win2K have this problem ? If so, can you put together a test page for us? We know there are problem when we try to select the conjuncts. However, since we use TextOutW, in theory the TextOutW should handle conjuncts and handle the reording of the left-positionned matra's. so, can u people give me some brief ideas abt keyboard mapping, Keyboard layout is unrelated to the problem. You can use whatever you want (or are comfortable with). However, you certainly need a Unicode-able editor. Very few of them are Indian-enabled (Microsoft are the best choice, but are not the cheaper, particularly since it pratically needs Win2000). unicode font setting, There are very few Indian "Unicode" fonts for the moment. And even less work with X11/Linux. In fact, I am not aware of any such a font. Which is the main reason why I ask the questions above. dispay setting What do you mean with display setting? The display setting is on the the client side. You are not going to have any form of control on this setting... (and no, I do not like browsing a web site and encountering a page that says "please, change over all your settings in order to browse my site"; actually, I often switch away). Antoine
Re: Can anyone help me!!!
Antoine Leca wrote: sanatan mohanty wrote: i have a project to make a webpage, which will be unicode enable. Good. i can show indian language fonts. i can type those fonts on the webpage itself on text boxes!. Ah! How do you do that? Or do you mean "would/should" instead? and it should be atleast work on netscape and windows explorer!, and atleast LINUX and Windows OS supports it!. I am not aware that Netscape, even in version 6, is able to display Indian sentences encoded in Unicode (although it is able to display individual characters). The problem is in the rendering (displaying) of the conjuncts, and the reordering of the left-positionned matra's. Does Netscape6 on Win2K have this problem ? If so, can you put together a test page for us? We know there are problem when we try to select the conjuncts. However, since we use TextOutW, in theory the TextOutW should handle conjuncts and handle the reording of the left-positionned matra's. so, can u people give me some brief ideas abt keyboard mapping, Keyboard layout is unrelated to the problem. You can use whatever you want (or are comfortable with). However, you certainly need a Unicode-able editor. Very few of them are Indian-enabled (Microsoft are the best choice, but are not the cheaper, particularly since it pratically needs Win2000). unicode font setting, There are very few Indian "Unicode" fonts for the moment. And even less work with X11/Linux. In fact, I am not aware of any such a font. Which is the main reason why I ask the questions above. dispay setting What do you mean with display setting? The display setting is on the the client side. You are not going to have any form of control on this setting... (and no, I do not like browsing a web site and encountering a page that says "please, change over all your settings in order to browse my site"; actually, I often switch away). Antoine
Re: Can anyone help me!!!
- Original Message - From: "Yung-Fong Tang" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does Netscape6 on Win2K have this problem ? If so, can you put together a test page for us? We know there are problem when we try to select the conjuncts. However, since we use TextOutW, in theory the TextOutW should handle conjuncts and handle the reording of the left-positionned matra's. Actually, I just tested this with milestone 16 and Mozilla on Windows 2000 does indeed work properly on Hindi and Tamil text, as well as others. michka a new book on internationalization in VB at http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
Re: Can anyone help me!!!
Yung-Fong Tang wrote: Antoine Leca wrote: sanatan mohanty wrote: and it should be atleast work on netscape and windows explorer!, and atleast LINUX and Windows OS supports it!. I am not aware that Netscape, even in version 6, is able to display Indian sentences encoded in Unicode (although it is able to display individual characters). Does Netscape6 on Win2K have this problem ? Hmmm... Probably not! I was answering to the question as a whole (i.e. working on both Moz' and IE under all of Linux, 9X and NT). However, since we use TextOutW, in theory the TextOutW should handle conjuncts and handle the reording of the left-positionned matra's. According to my knowledge, it should work, you are correct. I will set up the lizard and give a look at my tests pages. But I first need to find some speedy box to do that... Antoine
RE: Can anyone help me!!!
On 09/23/2000 10:45:13 AM "Carl W. Brown" wrote:
Microsoft has chosen not to create and new code pages for new languages.
Unfortunately for you these languages are the Indian languages. They
added
these language to Windows 2000 in Unicode only. They are not available on
Windows 98 or Windows Me.
All true.
Part of the reason for doing this only on Windows
2000 is also that they added Uniscribe and Open Type to handle more
complex
scripts properly this is a Unicode API that would have been difficult to
port to the Win 98 platform.
Not true. Windows 9x has always supported APIs for drawing text using
Unicode-encoded strings. Uniscribe and OpenType are available on Win9x/Me,
and if you had OT Devanagari fonts and the appropriate version of
Uniscribe, you should be able to display Devanagari text on Win9x/Me using
an appropriate (i.e. Unicode-enabled app) such as IE 5.5 or WordPad. (Word
2000 may also work, but I know it has certain problems with Thai when
running on non-Thai versions of Win9x; I don't know for certain that it
would handle Devanagari.)
What Win9x/Me has *not* had are all the other APIs that it takes to provide
full Unicode support. Most other APIs require a codepage, and without any
codepage for Devanagari, etc. there is no way on Win9x to provide complete
support for scripts of India.
For some purposes, support for input and output are all that's needed. As
mentioned, there is no obstacle to rendering Indic scripts (at least as
used for major languages) on Win9x that can't be solved. Input is one of
those things for which Win9x didn't provide Unicode support. I won't go
into the technical details of what the obstacle is. There is now an API
that gets around that obstacle, however: WM_UNICHAR can be used as an
alternative to WM_CHAR. While WM_CHAR may or may not carry a Unicode
character (depending on other factors - but it never does so on Win9x,
hence the obstacle), WM_UNICHAR always carries a Unicode character,
expressed as UTF-32. This API can be used on Win9x, but it does require
specific support by applications and by keyboard drivers to work.
I am aware of some software that is in development that will use the API as
a client (i.e. recipient); version 5 of the Tavultesoft Keyboard Manager
("Keyman") also makes use of this API, so it provides a fairly easy way to
create keyboards that can be used on Win9x/Me that can generate Unicode
characters from any range without requiring a codepage.
Keyman 5 is currently in beta, and has been running quite well, at least on
Win2000 and Win98. You can check it out at http://www.tavultesoft.com/.
- Peter
---
Peter Constable
Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA
Tel: +1 972 708 7485
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Can anyone help me!!!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 8:21 AM Not true. Windows 9x has always supported APIs for drawing text using Unicode-encoded strings. Uniscribe and OpenType are available on Win9x/Me, and if you had OT Devanagari fonts and the appropriate version of Uniscribe, you should be able to display Devanagari text on Win9x/Me using an appropriate (i.e. Unicode-enabled app) such as IE 5.5 or WordPad. (Word 2000 may also work, but I know it has certain problems with Thai when running on non-Thai versions of Win9x; I don't know for certain that it would handle Devanagari.) You are right, I don't know what I was thinking. I also recollect that Avery Bishop also had some work around. The lack of a code page on the other had will probably be a killer. But there are a lot of hacks were people just make up their own. There are some already windows Indian fonts with non-Unicode code pages at: http://www.indianlanguages.com Carl
Re: Can anyone help me!!!
Correct, but SA Word 2000 uses a slightly different dll to do the job (it sits in saext.dll). I was told that it ships in all versions for Word 10 by a usually reliable source who might be able to chip in with a more thorough explanation of what this dll does for Word that goes beyond the MS Search/Windows 2000 word breaking/stemming solution. michka a new book on internationalization in VB at http://www.i18nWithVB.com/ - Original Message - From: "Carl W. Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Unicode List" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 10:15 AM Subject: RE: Can anyone help me!!! Peter, Thai Windows uses a word breaking dictionary. I looked into it to build an Ethiopian system. I was not going to use composed glyphs like Unicode did. It was first built as part of the help system as an add on to Windows 3.1. Then it was later added to Windows itself. Carl -Original Message- From: John Cowan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 9:01 AM To: Unicode List Subject: Re: Can anyone help me!!! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Word 2000 may also work, but I know it has certain problems with Thai when running on non-Thai versions of Win9x; I don't know for certain that it would handle Devanagari.) Thai is an especially bad case because it needs a full-blast morphological parser to decide where to break lines, there being no equivalent of word space. Theoretically, one could use the ZWSP, but there is no equivalent in the TIS or Windows character sets. Expecting to get good results on non-Thai Windows with Thai text is probably asking too much, at least for a while. -- There is / one art || John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] no more / no less|| http://www.reutershealth.com to do / all things || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan with art- / lessness \\ -- Piet Hein
Re: Can anyone help me!!!
On 09/26/2000 11:11:11 AM cowan wrote: Expecting to get good results on non-Thai Windows with Thai text is probably asking too much, at least for a while. Indeed, but Word2000 on Win98 doesn't even give contextual forms and diacritic positioning. - Peter
RE: Can anyone help me!!!
And you're both correct. The code to handle Thai exists only in the "South Asian" version of Word2000, or Thai Word2000, which is the same executable as the South Asian version. All other versions of Word2000 use a different (shared) executable. So you can really say there are two versions of Word2000 - the one that handles East Asian/Latin/Bidi, and the other one that handles all those plus Thai/Indic. For whatever reason, it is pretty hard to obtain the second one, since it sells only in Thailand, India, and neighboring countries. All of this code is rolled into "Word10", which is under development right now. IE5.x and riched20.dll (used by Wordpad) are already completely worldwide enabled since they shipped in Win2000, meaning there is only one version of their executables used for all languages. Word2000 shipped one year before Win2000, and we didn't have enough time to get the Thai/Indic in the global release, that's all. That's why Peter's comparison works the way it does now, and won't work that way next year when Word10 is available. Chris Pratley Group Program Manager Microsoft Word Sent with Office10 build 2118 wordmail on -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: September 26, 2000 1:40 PM To: Unicode List Subject: Re: Can anyone help me!!! Indeed, but Word2000 on Win98 doesn't even give contextual forms and diacritic positioning. Not with the Word SA edition! SAEXT.dll is alive and well there. Here's the comparison: US Win98, install IE 5.5 and select Thai support in the setup options. Wordpad will now correctly handle contextual selection and diacritic positioning for Thai texts. Word 2000 still will not. That's all I was trying to say. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can anyone help me!!!
From: "Chris Pratley" [EMAIL PROTECTED] small footnote here For whatever reason, it is pretty hard to obtain the second [South Asia] one, since it sells only in Thailand, India, and neighboring countries. I have been able to arrange getting it to specific customers who ask through their own premier support contacts and Select agreements several times in the last year. Michael Kaplan Trigeminal Software, Inc. http://www.trigeminal.com/ a new book on internationalization in VB at http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
Re: Can anyone help me!!!
sanatan mohanty wrote: i have a project to make a webpage, which will be unicode enable. Good. i can show indian language fonts. i can type those fonts on the webpage itself on text boxes!. Ah! How do you do that? Or do you mean "would/should" instead? and it should be atleast work on netscape and windows explorer!, and atleast LINUX and Windows OS supports it!. I am not aware that Netscape, even in version 6, is able to display Indian sentences encoded in Unicode (although it is able to display individual characters). The problem is in the rendering (displaying) of the conjuncts, and the reordering of the left-positionned matra's. so, can u people give me some brief ideas abt keyboard mapping, Keyboard layout is unrelated to the problem. You can use whatever you want (or are comfortable with). However, you certainly need a Unicode-able editor. Very few of them are Indian-enabled (Microsoft are the best choice, but are not the cheaper, particularly since it pratically needs Win2000). unicode font setting, There are very few Indian "Unicode" fonts for the moment. And even less work with X11/Linux. In fact, I am not aware of any such a font. Which is the main reason why I ask the questions above. dispay setting What do you mean with display setting? The display setting is on the the client side. You are not going to have any form of control on this setting... (and no, I do not like browsing a web site and encountering a page that says "please, change over all your settings in order to browse my site"; actually, I often switch away). Antoine
Re: Can anyone help me!!!
From: "James Kass" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
IE 5.5 support all of the Unicode Indian scripts.
I just tried it on a couple of Devanagari sites
because the English Windows comes with mangal
true type font.
May we see links to some of those pages?
Here are a few such pages:
http://www.trigeminal.com/index.asp?1081
http://www.trigeminal.com/frmrpt2dap.html?1081
http://www.trigeminal.com/frmrpt2dap_readme.htm?1081
They all use an explicit style for fonts in a CSS:
{ font-family:Mangal,Code2000,Arial Unicode MS;
font-size:12pt; }
Mangal I put in first since it is included in Windows 2000 and Arial Unicode
MS I include last as the feedback I have gotten has found that Code2000
looks much better than it does for several Indic scripts.
michka
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
RE: Can anyone help me!!!
Sanatan, Microsoft has chosen not to create and new code pages for new languages. Unfortunately for you these languages are the Indian languages. They added these language to Windows 2000 in Unicode only. They are not available on Windows 98 or Windows Me. Part of the reason for doing this only on Windows 2000 is also that they added Uniscribe and Open Type to handle more complex scripts properly this is a Unicode API that would have been difficult to port to the Win 98 platform. Uniscribe is an API that applications can use for line breaking, cursor positioning, bidi, glyph handling etc. in a script independent manner. Thus applications like IE and Office can operate on any language on Windows 2000. In addition you can not use them in non Unicode applications such as Netscape 4.x. You can use IE 5.5 on Windows 2000. You also should be able to use the Netscape 6.0 beta 2 on Windows 2000 because Netscape has rewritten it as a Unicode application. IE 5.5 support all of the Unicode Indian scripts. I just tried it on a couple of Devanagari sites because the English Windows comes with mangal true type font. I am not aware of any clean Linux solution. There may be fonts that you can use with the Netscape beta 6.0. but I don't know if the rendering engine can handle complex fonts. There is work being done in this area to provide a better Unix solution that is comparable to the NT solution. But to do it right it has to include everything from font rendering to word breaking. Carl -Original Message- From: sanatan mohanty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 5:51 AM To: Unicode List Subject: Can anyone help me!!! Dear Friends!. How are you!. i have a project to make a webpage, which will be unicode enable. i can show indian language fonts. i can type those fonts on the webpage itself on text boxes!. and it should be atleast work on netscape and windows explorer!, and atleast LINUX and Windows OS supports it!. so, can u people give me some brief ideas abt keyboard mapping, unicode font setting, dispay setting i will be grateful to you all for your help.. waiting for you kind response.. Regards, Sanatan
