Re: Uppercase ß
> The ALL-CAPS "SS" really has little to recommend it, intrinsically. > It is de-facto a fall-back; one that competed with "SZ" as used in > telegrams (while they still were a thing). Well, the status of `ß' is indeed complicated, and the radical solution used in Switzerland has certainly benefits. > Not being able to know how to hyphenate MASSE without knowing the > meaning of the word is also not something that I consider a > "benefit". I don't see much difference to the English example of `re-cord' vs. `rec-ord'. And Swiss people won't start to use `ẞ' just for getting the right meaning... > Uppercase forms for `ß' have been kicking around in fonts for a long > time as was documented around the time that the character was > encoded. Yes, and it was never successful. The introduction of `ẞ' into Unicode a few years ago was mainly driven by experts, not something that had big popularity before. > With changing environment (starting with influence from Anglo-Saxon > use of type and not ending with the way the character is treated in > relation to phonetics) I've been expecting to see usage evolving; > and not necessarily driven by software engineers. Yes, let's see how everything will evolve. Regardless of that, software should support the status quo as good as possible. Werner
Re: Uppercase ß
On 5/29/2018 2:46 PM, Werner LEMBERG wrote: I very much dislike the approach that just for the sake of `simplistic standardization for uppercase' the use if `ẞ' should be enforced in German. [...] Hmm, don't see anyone calling for that in this discussion. Well, I hear an implicit ”Great, there is now an `ẞ' character! Let's use it as the uppercase version of `ß' everywhere so that this nasty German peculiarity is finally gone.“ The ALL-CAPS "SS" really has little to recommend it, intrinsically. It is de-facto a fall-back; one that competed with "SZ" as used in telegrams (while they still were a thing). Not being able to know how to hyphenate MASSE without knowing the meaning of the word is also not something that I consider a "benefit". Uppercase forms for `ß' have been kicking around in fonts for a long time as was documented around the time that the character was encoded. It is possible mainly because running text in ALL CAPS is indeed uncommon (and in the time of Fraktur was effectively not viable because the Fraktur capitals don't lend themselves to it. (If SS had ever occurred in Title-Case, I doubt it would have survived as long, other than the "Swiss solution" of making it the only form, also in lower case). Saving an uppercase form for a non-initial letter was a godsend on typewriters -- adding to the factors that made the "SS" solution acceptable. But sign writers, type designers and typesetters did not find it so universally attractive - also documented exhaustively. With changing environment (starting with influence from Anglo-Saxon use of type and not ending with the way the character is treated in relation to phonetics) I've been expecting so see usage evolving; and not necessarily driven by software engineers. A./
Re: Uppercase ß
>> * `ß' is never used in Switzerland; it's always `ss' (and `SS'). >> [...] > > So the Swiss don't have that issue. What do they do for names? Foreign names containing `ß' are treated as-is, AFAIK. It's similar to using, say, accents in some foreign names in English. >> For such cases, `GESCHOSS' is a much better uppercase version >> since it covers both dialectic forms. ... and Swiss people would use the same uppercase version... > I don't see the claimed benefit; [...] > > Users who will end up "resolving" this would be those who grew up > only with the revised orthography. Indeed. >> I very much dislike the approach that just for the sake of >> `simplistic standardization for uppercase' the use if `ẞ' should be >> enforced in German. [...] > > Hmm, don't see anyone calling for that in this discussion. Well, I hear an implicit ”Great, there is now an `ẞ' character! Let's use it as the uppercase version of `ß' everywhere so that this nasty German peculiarity is finally gone.“ Maybe it's only me... Werner
Re: Uppercase ß
On 5/29/2018 12:15 PM, Werner LEMBERG wrote: Overlooked in this discussion is the fact that the revised orthography of 1996 introduces for the first time a systematic difference in pronunciation for the vowel preceding SS vs. ẞ (short vs. long). As users of the old orthography age out, I would not be surprised if the SS fallback were to become less acceptable over time because it would be at odds with how the word is to be pronounced. I'm also confidently expecting the use of ALL CAPS to become (somewhat) more prevalent under the continued influence of English usage. It's not that simple. * `ß' is never used in Switzerland; it's always `ss' (and `SS'). Even ambiguous cases like `Masse' are always written like that. This means that for Swiss users `ẞ' is even more alien than for most German and Austrian users. In particular, there doesn't exist a `unity SS' in Swiss German at all! For example, the word `Maße' if capitalized to `MASSE' is hyphenated as `MA-SSE' in Germany and Austria (since `SS' is treated in this case as a unity). However, the word is hyphenated as `MAS-SE' in Switzerland, since `ss', as a replacement for `ß', is *not* treated as a unity. So the Swiss don't have that issue. What do they do for names? * There are dialectic differences between northern and southern Germany (and Austria). Example: `Geschoß' vs. `Geschoss', which means exactly the same – and both orthographies are allowed. For such cases, `GESCHOSS' is a much better uppercase version since it covers both dialectic forms. I don't see the claimed benefit; if you allow two different spellings in lowercase to track the phonetic difference, then that would rather seem to support my argument that there is now a tension in the orthography (for standard German) that may well resolve itself by greater use of the distinct uppercase form. Users who will end up "resolving" this would be those who grew up only with the revised orthography. Older users are used to a different principle of selecting between SS and ß and that isn't tied to pronunciation of preceding vowel. I very much dislike the approach that just for the sake of `simplistic standardization for uppercase' the use if `ẞ' should be enforced in German. It's not the job of a language to fit computer usage. It's rather the job of computers to fit language usage. Hmm, don't see anyone calling for that in this discussion. A./ Werner
Re: Uppercase ß
> Overlooked in this discussion is the fact that the revised > orthography of 1996 introduces for the first time a systematic > difference in pronunciation for the vowel preceding SS vs. ẞ (short > vs. long). As users of the old orthography age out, I would not be > surprised if the SS fallback were to become less acceptable over > time because it would be at odds with how the word is to be > pronounced. I'm also confidently expecting the use of ALL CAPS to > become (somewhat) more prevalent under the continued influence of > English usage. It's not that simple. * `ß' is never used in Switzerland; it's always `ss' (and `SS'). Even ambiguous cases like `Masse' are always written like that. This means that for Swiss users `ẞ' is even more alien than for most German and Austrian users. In particular, there doesn't exist a `unity SS' in Swiss German at all! For example, the word `Maße' if capitalized to `MASSE' is hyphenated as `MA-SSE' in Germany and Austria (since `SS' is treated in this case as a unity). However, the word is hyphenated as `MAS-SE' in Switzerland, since `ss', as a replacement for `ß', is *not* treated as a unity. * There are dialectic differences between northern and southern Germany (and Austria). Example: `Geschoß' vs. `Geschoss', which means exactly the same – and both orthographies are allowed. For such cases, `GESCHOSS' is a much better uppercase version since it covers both dialectic forms. I very much dislike the approach that just for the sake of `simplistic standardization for uppercase' the use if `ẞ' should be enforced in German. It's not the job of a language to fit computer usage. It's rather the job of computers to fit language usage. Werner
Re: Uppercase ß
Hello, am 2018-05-29 um 10:15 Uhr hat Hans Åberg geschrieben: Duden used one in 1957, but stated in 1984 that there is no uppercase version [1]. There used to bee two differnt orthographic dictionaries, both called “Duden”: ► The Duden from Leipzig (DDR) had a captal “ß”, on the cover page of its 1957 edition. ► The Duden from Mannheim (FRG) never has featured a captal “ß”, IIRC. So it would be interesting with a reference to an official version. Neither Duden has been anything like an “official version” – never ever. Until 1996, the only official German orthography was somewhat loosely defined by a common decision of the Ministers of Education of the FRG, with an additional remark saying: “In case of doubt, the spelling of the latest edition of the Duden (i. e. the Mannheim version) will take effect.” Nowadays, the official version of the orthographic rules can be found in: <http://www.rechtschreibrat.com/regeln-und-woerterverzeichnis/>; the Uppercase-ß rule, particularily, is discussed in <http://www.rechtschreibrat.com/DOX/rfdr_Regeln_2016_redigiert_2018.pdf>, under §25(E3); the latest version of the rule reads thusly: E3: Bei Schreibung mit Großbuchstaben schreibt man SS. Daneben ist auch die Verwendung des Großbuchstabens ẞ möglich. which means: When writing in all-caps, you write SS. Alternatively, the capital ẞ may be used. So, the normal upper-case equivalent of German sharp-S still is the double-S. The recently introduced capital sharp-S is an optional alternative, but not the normal way of uppercasing the sharp-S. Best wishes, Otto Stolz
Re: Uppercase ß
On 5/29/2018 5:57 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode wrote: On 29 May 2018, at 14:47, Arthur Reutenauer wrote: The main point is what users of ẞ and ß would think, and Unicode to adjust accordingly. Since users of ß would think that in the vast majority of cases, it ought to be uppercased to SS, I think you’re missing the main point. No, you missed the point. Overlooked in this discussion is the fact that the revised orthography of 1996 introduces for the first time a systematic difference in pronunciation for the vowel preceding SS vs. ẞ (short vs. long). As users of the old orthography age out, I would not be surprised if the SS fallback were to become less acceptable over time because it would be at odds with how the word is to be pronounced. I'm also confidently expecting the use of ALL CAPS to become (somewhat) more prevalent under the continued influence of English usage. Languages and writing systems evolve. A./
Re: Uppercase ß
> The main point is what users of ẞ and ß would think, and Unicode to adjust > accordingly. Since users of ß would think that in the vast majority of cases, it ought to be uppercased to SS, I think you’re missing the main point. Arthur
Re: Uppercase ß
> If uppercasing is not common, one would think that setting it too ẞ would > pose no problems, no that it is available. It would, for reasons of stability. Arthur
Re: Uppercase ß
> On 29 May 2018, at 14:47, Arthur Reutenauer wrote: > >> The main point is what users of ẞ and ß would think, and Unicode to adjust >> accordingly. > > Since users of ß would think that in the vast majority of cases, it > ought to be uppercased to SS, I think you’re missing the main point. No, you missed the point.
Re: Uppercase ß
> On 29 May 2018, at 12:55, Arthur Reutenauer wrote: > >> If uppercasing is not common, one would think that setting it too ẞ would >> pose no problems, no that it is available. > > It would, for reasons of stability. The main point is what users of ẞ and ß would think, and Unicode to adjust accordingly.
Re: Uppercase ß
> On 29 May 2018, at 11:17, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > >> When looking for the lowercase ß LATIN SMALL LETTER SHARP S U+00DF >> in a MacOS Character Viewer, it does not give the uppercase version, >> for some reason. > > Yes, and it will stay so, AFAIK. The uppercase variant of `ß' is > `SS'. `ẞ' is to be used mainly for names that contain `ß', and which > must be printed uppercase, for example in passports. Here the > distinction is important, cf. > > Strauß vs. Strauss → STRAUẞ vs. STRAUSS > > Since uppercasing is not common in typesetting German text (in > particular headers), the need to make a distinction between words like > `Masse' (mass) and `Maße' (dimensions) if written uppercase is rarely > necessary because it can usually deduced by context. If uppercasing is not common, one would think that setting it too ẞ would pose no problems, no that it is available.
Re: Uppercase ß
> When looking for the lowercase ß LATIN SMALL LETTER SHARP S U+00DF > in a MacOS Character Viewer, it does not give the uppercase version, > for some reason. Yes, and it will stay so, AFAIK. The uppercase variant of `ß' is `SS'. `ẞ' is to be used mainly for names that contain `ß', and which must be printed uppercase, for example in passports. Here the distinction is important, cf. Strauß vs. Strauss → STRAUẞ vs. STRAUSS Since uppercasing is not common in typesetting German text (in particular headers), the need to make a distinction between words like `Masse' (mass) and `Maße' (dimensions) if written uppercase is rarely necessary because it can usually deduced by context. Werner
Re: Uppercase ß
> On 29 May 2018, at 10:54, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > > On 2018/05/29 17:15, Hans Åberg via Unicode wrote: >>> On 29 May 2018, at 07:30, Asmus Freytag via Unicode >>> wrote: > >>> An uppercase exists and it has formally been ruled as acceptable way to >>> write this letter (mostly an issue for ALL CAPS as ß does not occur in >>> word-initial position). >>> A./ >> Duden used one in 1957, but stated in 1984 that there is no uppercase >> version [1]. So it would be interesting with a reference to an official >> version. >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ß > > The English wikipedia may not be fully up to date. > See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Großes_ß (second paragraph): > > "Seit dem 29. Juni 2017 ist das ẞ Bestandteil der amtlichen deutschen > Rechtschreibung.[2][3]" > > Translated to English: "Since June 29, 2017, the ẞ is part of the official > German orthography." > > (As far as I remember the discussion (on this list?) last year, the ẞ > (uppercase ß) is allowed, but not required.) And it is already in Unicode as ẞ LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S U+1E9E. When looking for the lowercase ß LATIN SMALL LETTER SHARP S U+00DF in a MacOS Character Viewer, it does not give the uppercase version, for some reason. The equivalence with "ss" shows up ICU Regular Expressions that do case insensitive matching where the cases have different length, so it should do that for the new character to, I gather. http://userguide.icu-project.org/strings/regexp
Re: Uppercase ß
On 2018/05/29 17:15, Hans Åberg via Unicode wrote: On 29 May 2018, at 07:30, Asmus Freytag via Unicode wrote: An uppercase exists and it has formally been ruled as acceptable way to write this letter (mostly an issue for ALL CAPS as ß does not occur in word-initial position). A./ Duden used one in 1957, but stated in 1984 that there is no uppercase version [1]. So it would be interesting with a reference to an official version. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ß The English wikipedia may not be fully up to date. See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Großes_ß (second paragraph): "Seit dem 29. Juni 2017 ist das ẞ Bestandteil der amtlichen deutschen Rechtschreibung.[2][3]" Translated to English: "Since June 29, 2017, the ẞ is part of the official German orthography." (As far as I remember the discussion (on this list?) last year, the ẞ (uppercase ß) is allowed, but not required.) Regards, Martin.
Re: Uppercase ß
> On 29 May 2018, at 07:30, Asmus Freytag via Unicode > wrote: > > On 5/28/2018 6:30 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode wrote: >>> Unifying these would make a real mess of lower casing! >>> >> German has a special sign ß for "ss", without upper capital version. >> >> > You may want to retract the second part of that sentence. > > An uppercase exists and it has formally been ruled as acceptable way to write > this letter (mostly an issue for ALL CAPS as ß does not occur in word-initial > position). > A./ Duden used one in 1957, but stated in 1984 that there is no uppercase version [1]. So it would be interesting with a reference to an official version. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ß
