Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Petko pditc...@gmail.com wrote: First a few notes : 1. The feature in question is very old ,and a lot of people have their way around it . 2. Inheriting the info from 1. - I'm not quite sure how many people (old as they may be) have a problem with the feature. What is our representative sample ? It would be interesting to have some user testing to see how average people use the sort feature and where they struggle (if they do). - Can they sort files in Nautilus by date. - Can they fix a mail app that sorts by-subject instead of by-date (find a mail send on [date]...). - Do they understand the functionality of the sort button (one button - two functionalities: 1. Select the column that should be sorted. 2. The sort direction). On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.comwrote: Before picking up the feature scythe, I suggest trying a less drastic fix. Ubuntu's default theme makes hardly any distinction between the sorted column and other columns. If the sorted column and column header were highlighted, that you had changed the sort order would be more obvious, and how to change it back would also be more obvious. Visualizing the current column sort direction more clearly could be a solution. Maybe adding a monochrome arrow before the column name (a bigger one than the one Nautilus uses) and change the background color to a more lighter color (maybe a very light orange would be okay too) to indicate that column [column name] is currently the selected one to sort the content. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thibaut Brandscheid wrote on 13/12/12 00:01: ... This is a real world problem, I've multiple times rearranged the sorting for an elderly man in Thunderbird (he has the same problem in Nautilus but not enough files to get lost there). Thats an special use case, I know, but I think it should not be that easy to break an application. Thunderbird doesn't have a sort-by button. Thunderbird, like Nautilus, has column headers that do something when you click them. Before picking up the feature scythe, I suggest trying a less drastic fix. Ubuntu's default theme makes hardly any distinction between the sorted column and other columns. If the sorted column and column header were highlighted, that you had changed the sort order would be more obvious, and how to change it back would also be more obvious. In general, it's best to assume that a problem has multiple possible solutions, rather than writing a Subject line that assumes one particular solution. - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlDO5REACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecqV5wCfUb8hW+Z60H8+z33ZiLFAu6g2 Jx4AoJ6GN5mBo1YqzpdobvgStPrp1CE2 =+8x0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
First a few notes : 1. The feature in question is very old ,and a lot of people have their way around it . 2. Inheriting the info from 1. - I'm not quite sure how many people (old as they may be) have a problem with the feature. What is our representative sample ? I'm having these thoughts because there are two choices : 1.Leave everything pretty much like it is now (and the thing that MPT mentioned about highlighting is not far from this category because Nautilus currently highlights (or lets say at least outlines) the category that we've clicked to sort by) . 2.Make a drastic change (like my idea for a context menu on a click over the columns with Sort by and Columns) . I don't think anyone can tell which is better before there's a clearer idea how many people have problems with the feature , so we don't end up backtracking . Petko -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
Why can't the implementation be global? The existing sort interface is globally implemented by Gtk. On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 3:50 AM, Petko pditc...@gmail.com wrote: My two cents : I don't think that removing the bar with the column names is inappropriate - it's just needed to understand the info below (if there were a date modified column and a date created column how would you tell them apart) . A suggested behaviour : clicking (left or right) on said bar (with Name,Type,etc.. ) pops a context menu with Sort by- and Columns- . Both open an attributes list (name,date mod , date created , etc.)(as part of the same context menu) . In Sort you choose one item to sort by , and in Columns you check the columns you need displayed . I think that'll solve everything and be usable by everyone . Opinions ? Of course the implementation can't be global , so actually getting every major developer to do it is kind of impossible , but if we here agree on it it's some sort of a start. Petko -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-**designhttps://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.**netunity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-**designhttps://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/**ListHelphttps://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
On 11 December 2012 22:00, Thibaut Brandscheid randal...@web.de wrote: As well as being simple for a basic user facilities that more sophisticated users need must be provided. Next you will be suggesting removing split screen and tree view from Nautilus. No-one would ever suggest that. The split view is not a feature in the main UI window of nautilus causing any average UX problems... I have nothing against the split view. My comment was a poor attempt at irony since those features *have* unfortunately been removed from Nautilus. Colin -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
just because an application ships with ubuntu doesn't mean that ubuntu has anything to do with actually working on the program. you're probably better off sending this to the developers of each application. personally, i'm against the idea. it is true that i rarely use them and do ignore them for the most part but when i do use them they're very helpful and serve their purpose well. i'd hate to have a file manager or any music player without options to sort by this or that. i don't use them with my e-mail but i do sort important mail that i need to keep into different folders for generally the same purpose. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Thibaut Brandscheid randal...@web.dewrote: I would like to suggest the removal of all Sort-By buttons in all applications shipped with Ubuntu. The reasons: - they can break the UX in an app for an average user completely - they are rarely used - we don't need them Instead make a default how content should be sorted in Ubuntu and stick to it. Allow the user to change the sorting pattern in the application preferences. There are two problems I try to address: 1 - The without-intention-click-problem I help an elderly man that sometimes clicks without intention and without noticing it. Sometimes he clicks on the Sort-By button with the effect that this mail inbox gets sorted by another pattern, resulting in an unusable program for him, because he can't find any mail any more for days! And he is not the only person I've seen struggling with the Sort-By functionality. Most average users I know just ignore the Sort-By buttons because they are a potential source of trouble for them. 2 - They clutter the UI for no reason. (3 - Touch screen devices have the same problem of intention less clicks, resulting in unwanted actions being executed) I know the Sort-By buttons can be found in applications since decades, but thats not a reason why they should stay. Your thoughts? Greetings Thibaut -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Josh Strawbridge -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
I would hate this too, even if you seldomly use it, doesn't need you won't find it infuriating that it went away when you'll actually need it. I'm pretty sure people would hate to have them removed. Le 11/12/2012 21:10, Josh Strawbridge a écrit : just because an application ships with ubuntu doesn't mean that ubuntu has anything to do with actually working on the program. you're probably better off sending this to the developers of each application. personally, i'm against the idea. it is true that i rarely use them and do ignore them for the most part but when i do use them they're very helpful and serve their purpose well. i'd hate to have a file manager or any music player without options to sort by this or that. i don't use them with my e-mail but i do sort important mail that i need to keep into different folders for generally the same purpose. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Thibaut Brandscheid randal...@web.de mailto:randal...@web.de wrote: I would like to suggest the removal of all Sort-By buttons in all applications shipped with Ubuntu. The reasons: - they can break the UX in an app for an average user completely - they are rarely used - we don't need them Instead make a default how content should be sorted in Ubuntu and stick to it. Allow the user to change the sorting pattern in the application preferences. There are two problems I try to address: 1 - The without-intention-click-problem I help an elderly man that sometimes clicks without intention and without noticing it. Sometimes he clicks on the Sort-By button with the effect that this mail inbox gets sorted by another pattern, resulting in an unusable program for him, because he can't find any mail any more for days! And he is not the only person I've seen struggling with the Sort-By functionality. Most average users I know just ignore the Sort-By buttons because they are a potential source of trouble for them. 2 - They clutter the UI for no reason. (3 - Touch screen devices have the same problem of intention less clicks, resulting in unwanted actions being executed) I know the Sort-By buttons can be found in applications since decades, but thats not a reason why they should stay. Your thoughts? Greetings Thibaut -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design https://launchpad.net/%7Eunity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net mailto:unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design https://launchpad.net/%7Eunity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Josh Strawbridge -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Josh Strawbridge holyknightjos...@gmail.com wrote: just because an application ships with ubuntu doesn't mean that ubuntu has anything to do with actually working on the program. I'm aware about that. The reason why I post it here is because I think it's an general UX design problem. personally, i'm against the idea. it is true that i rarely use them and do ignore them for the most part but when i do use them they're very helpful and serve their purpose well. I have nothing against the sort functionality, I do think that the current design - how a user can sort content - is wrong from an UX perspective. i'd hate to have a file manager or any music player without options to sort by this or that. i don't use them with my e-mail but i do sort important mail that i need to keep into different folders for generally the same purpose. The question is, are you part of the main user group Ubuntu is targeting? As I understand Ubuntu, it tries to be an OS for every one and because most users are not computer experts the UI and basic functionality has to be simple (not stupid simple, functionality simple). Sorting is nice, yes, but should it be achieved the way it is currently? On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Gabriel Pettier gabriel.pett...@gmail.com wrote: I would hate this too, even if you seldomly use it, doesn't need you won't find it infuriating that it went away when you'll actually need it. I'm pretty sure people would hate to have them removed. Yes, we need the sort functionality, but do we need this one-click-buttons in the front UI? If you would have to go to the settings, or would have to right click to unlock and make the Sort-By buttons visible and editable, would that be such a big loss? How often are the buttons used? rarely Do they represent a key functionality in an application? no How much space do they take? They use horizontally quite much space (horizontal space is really valuable space) How important is the feature for an average user? pretty unimportant Usefulness compared to screen presentation? I would give them 2 of 10 points -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
As well as being simple for a basic user facilities that more sophisticated users need must be provided. Next you will be suggesting removing split screen and tree view from Nautilus. No-one would ever suggest that. The split view is not a feature in the main UI window of nautilus causing any average UX problems... I have nothing against the split view. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Gabriel Pettier gabriel.pett...@gmail.com wrote: I would hate this too, even if you seldomly use it, doesn't need you won't find it infuriating that it went away when you'll actually need it. I'm pretty sure people would hate to have them removed. Yes, we need the sort functionality, but do we need this one-click-buttons in the front UI? If you would have to go to the settings, or would have to right click to unlock and make the Sort-By buttons visible and editable, would that be such a big loss? That is a different suggestion to your original idea, which was to remove them completely. All I try to say is that we have a UX problem with the Sort-By buttons - I have no final solution for the problem. Move the action that is triggered by the Sort-By buttons to the preferences could be one solution. Moving it to the right click menu another. Or locking unlocking the Sort-By button row. Or a single small button on the right of the Sort-By menu to change the sort pattern. No setting at all could be a solution too - a bad one - but it would work for 95% of the time... I have no final thought, just come up with something better/more suitable for average users. How often are the buttons used? rarely Most days by me, for sorting columns in nautilus for example. It would be painful to have to go to the preferences to change it. Often I switch to date sorting to see which files have changed then back to sorting by name. If you use it that often, then maybe you would be okay with some shortcuts - like for switching the folder view in nautilus by pressing CTRL + [1-3]. All of my thoughts are base on the assumption that changing the sort pattern is a rare issue for average users - I could be wrong. How often is the change-sorting-action being used is the key question to find a good UX design. If its widely used by all user groups it should stay as it is. If its only often used by power users the action could be re-design. How much space do they take? They use horizontally quite much space (horizontal space is really valuable space) I don't see how they take space in nautilus, or do you think the column headings are not necessary? They certainly do not take up any horizontal space. I think the information that is present in the Sort-By buttons is negligible most times (Nautilus Thunderbird, but not in Rhythmbox). Looking at the file column tells me all I need to know (filename, size, type, date - its pretty easy to grasp and everyone who cares about the displayed information can distinguish them). -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
I believe what I'm about to say have been said more than a thousand times before, but still, I feel like adding some weight. Rather than adress this remove sort button proposal (considering it is not a troll); I'd like make a stance against this reductionist mentality. The more a software can do, the better; there is no such thing as a software that can do too much (new version of Nautilus, anyone?). What matters, is how those functionalities are organized. If the UI and the code itself is well organized, divided in layers of abstraction, modular, etc. that software should as well be easy to use (no matter which level of expertise you're at) and relatively easy to develop and maintain. If you are tempted to remove a feature because it's rarely used or because it's a burden to maintain, 90% of the times, the problem does not lie in the feature itself but in your organisation: your system might not be modular enough so the feature is tightly coupled with everything else and hence is a pain to maintain or perhaps you were wrong in the first place to include this feature in your application but it doesn't mean it doesn't belong anywhere else. Completely removing a possible use-case from the range of the user is just crippling. There's a difference between a concise design and a simplistic one; unfortunately, it's also what distinguishes good designers from bad ones. Aside from that, I'm also really tired of this: we aim for clueless aunt Cecile user. First of all things to consider: the general population is getting more and more computer-literate. Nowadays, not daily using a computing device in some way is rather the exception than the norm and don't we expect those users to at least evolve in the way they use their software? Not only the general population is becoming more and more used to the general principles behind computing but by using a software itself, you tend to learn, get comfortable with it and then explore some of it's features that would make you more effective. Users should be allowed to progress in their use of the software and depending on the target audience (professionals, general users, etc.) there should be a proper learning curve to accommodate this. This dumb user hypothesis is both insulting for the user and the software. Gna. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Thibaut Brandscheid randal...@web.dewrote: As well as being simple for a basic user facilities that more sophisticated users need must be provided. Next you will be suggesting removing split screen and tree view from Nautilus. No-one would ever suggest that. The split view is not a feature in the main UI window of nautilus causing any average UX problems... I have nothing against the split view. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Gabriel Pettier gabriel.pett...@gmail.com wrote: I would hate this too, even if you seldomly use it, doesn't need you won't find it infuriating that it went away when you'll actually need it. I'm pretty sure people would hate to have them removed. Yes, we need the sort functionality, but do we need this one-click-buttons in the front UI? If you would have to go to the settings, or would have to right click to unlock and make the Sort-By buttons visible and editable, would that be such a big loss? That is a different suggestion to your original idea, which was to remove them completely. All I try to say is that we have a UX problem with the Sort-By buttons - I have no final solution for the problem. Move the action that is triggered by the Sort-By buttons to the preferences could be one solution. Moving it to the right click menu another. Or locking unlocking the Sort-By button row. Or a single small button on the right of the Sort-By menu to change the sort pattern. No setting at all could be a solution too - a bad one - but it would work for 95% of the time... I have no final thought, just come up with something better/more suitable for average users. How often are the buttons used? rarely Most days by me, for sorting columns in nautilus for example. It would be painful to have to go to the preferences to change it. Often I switch to date sorting to see which files have changed then back to sorting by name. If you use it that often, then maybe you would be okay with some shortcuts - like for switching the folder view in nautilus by pressing CTRL + [1-3]. All of my thoughts are base on the assumption that changing the sort pattern is a rare issue for average users - I could be wrong. How often is the change-sorting-action being used is the key question to find a good UX design. If its widely used by all user groups it should stay as it is. If its only often used by power users the action could be re-design. How much space do they take? They use horizontally quite much space (horizontal space is really valuable space) I don't see how they take space in nautilus, or do you think the column headings are not
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
Am Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:55:40 +0100 schrieb Thibaut Brandscheid randal...@web.de: Yes, we need the sort functionality, but do we need this one-click-buttons in the front UI? If you would have to go to the settings, or would have to right click to unlock and make the Sort-By buttons visible and editable, would that be such a big loss? Non-expert users may not find out how they can sort things. How important is the feature for an average user? pretty unimportant Sorting for example files by name, size or date seems to be a quite common thing for me, even for non-experts. Like when you want to find the big files you could remove to free up some disk space. If this confuses some users I think it would be a better solution to make it even more obvious. Another idea could be to have an option simple interface at the accessibility settings. -- Plugin for Nautilus to create and modify application starters (.desktop files): http://www.florian-diesch.de/software/arronax/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Kill The Sort-By Button
On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 10:16 PM, Gregory Merchan gregory.merc...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Ian Santopietro isan...@gmail.com wrote: What about moving the sort functionality to a menu? Then, it can be easily accessed through HUD, preserving easy access fit who use the functionality who use it, while decluttering the UI and keeping a simple appearance for beginners. If the buttons being discussed are indeed the column headers, that's some nasty menu navigation to work with. The column headers allow both selection of a sort column and a direction. The way Nautilus does it, that's: open the menu with Arrange Items , open the sub-menu, select the sort criterion, re-open the menu, re-open the sub-menu, toggle the order. With column headers, it's two clicks. I agree with the original poster that the column sort buttons are not easily discoverable. I think that's the key reason why they would confuse someone who clicks them by accident. That they _can_ be clicked by accident strikes me as a non-issue. Anything can be clicked by accident. Might be worth thinking about ways to improve on them, making them clearer and perhaps more useful in the process. I remember there was some discussion about the arrows a while back, with one point being that they are not always good at expressing what they do: it isn't really self-evident which direction means ascending and which means descending, and what that means in the first place. For example, when you sort the Modified column in Nautilus, it actually sorts by a different value that you don't see, and it doesn't really tell you that it's going to do that. I think Google Sheets does something very nice here. You get an arrow button on each column header, and when you click it you get a menu with search, filter and sorting options for the column. It doesn't do very well at communicating what the current state is after you've selected something, but as far as making a choice is concerned it's excellent because you can tell exactly what it is you want. (And, since it doesn't rely on a weird three-state button thing, they can pack in all kinds of useful features). http://ubuntuone.com/3o1PRyeWiADFu2cUMzABWV As for making things simple, we generally do not have sortable tree views by default. Nautilus defaults to an icon view, and you can switch to a list view if you find it useful for the task at hand. I think Rhythmbox is a rare exception, and I think in that case we're better off designing a nicer way to list music. (Preferably one that looks somewhat appealing). Tearing out a feature won't get us any closer to that, especially when, for that tree view, vertical space is not a concern. Dylan -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
