Re: [Unity-design] Let's talk about sorting arrows
On 2/21/14 1:53 AM, Thorsten Wilms wrote: On 02/21/2014 12:39 AM, Sam Hulick wrote: Check out this collage of just a few different applications (both native and web) that show that an arrow pointing up means sort in ascending order, and an arrow pointing down means sort in a descending order. No matter which direction, it remains guesswork if A--Z maps to newer--older and to smaller--larger or if any pair has to be switched around. I will attach a mockup (that is old as the theme looks) with a possible solution for A--Z and smaller--larger. Also at: http://xtupload.com/image.php?id=C440_53071F51 Back then I couldn't think of a clear solution for newer--older. A more recent date could be seen to be a *larger* value, or bars could represent the timespan from now back to the date. Green could stand for newer and brown for older, but that might be seen as a rather loud solution. I don't think A-Z is guesswork. Other operating systems and several apps have already laid out the fact that an arrow pointing up is ascending order, an arrow pointing down is descending order. Ascending: 0-9, 1PM to 2PM, A-Z Descending: 9-0, 2PM to 1PM, Z-A Again, I'd argue that this is standard and fairly universal. And I think Unity should stick with arrows, as people know what they mean. While putting a tiny A-Z in the header bar might make sense, the bars may be confusing for some. -S -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Let's talk about sorting arrows
On 02/21/2014 11:08 AM, Sam Hulick wrote: I don't think A-Z is guesswork. Other operating systems and several apps have already laid out the fact that an arrow pointing up is ascending order, an arrow pointing down is descending order. The fact that you talk about the indicators as arrows already demonstrates part of the problem. An arrow shows direction, but how does it relate to the reading/writing direction implied by the list, and what comes first? Small or large, newer or older? The other interpretation of the indicators is that of triangles, with a tip that stands for the start of the sorting alphabet and for small. Even if you start from the terms ascending and descending, it's not obvious what that means for dates (time-since-then vs numerical value). I think this is somewhat representative of what an incredible strong consensus ;) can be found about the issue: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/338166/which-direction-should-the-arrows-point-in-a-sorted-table As little as it might be worth, my personal experience of over 20 years of often intensive computer use: In the heat of the moment, I still can't remember how triangles or arrows relate to sorting order and always scan the list to see what it is, right now. -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Let's talk about sorting arrows
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Thorsten Wilms t...@freenet.de wrote: No matter which direction, it remains guesswork if A–Z maps to newer–older and to smaller–larger or if any pair has to be switched around. I will attach a mockup (that is old as the theme looks) with a possible solution for A–Z and smaller–larger. Also at: http://xtupload.com/image.php?id=C440_53071F51 Back then I couldn't think of a clear solution for newer–older. A more recent date could be seen to be a *larger* value, or bars could represent the timespan from now back to the date. I like this approach of using icons with meaning for each column. For time, I would suggest trying with downward pointing diagonal arrows, like ↘ and ↙. The reasoning for this is that progressbars in videos have already established the idea that the past is to the left, and the future is to the right. So, ↘ would mean that earlier in time results are on top, and ↙ will mean that later in time results are on top. cheers, -- alecu -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Let's talk about sorting arrows
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Thorsten Wilms t...@freenet.de wrote: On 02/21/2014 11:08 AM, Sam Hulick wrote: I don't think A-Z is guesswork. Other operating systems and several apps have already laid out the fact that an arrow pointing up is ascending order, an arrow pointing down is descending order. The fact that you talk about the indicators as arrows already demonstrates part of the problem. An arrow shows direction, but how does it relate to the reading/writing direction implied by the list, and what comes first? Small or large, newer or older? The other interpretation of the indicators is that of triangles, with a tip that stands for the start of the sorting alphabet and for small. Even if you start from the terms ascending and descending, it's not obvious what that means for dates (time-since-then vs numerical value). I think this is somewhat representative of what an incredible strong consensus ;) can be found about the issue: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/338166/which-direction-should-the-arrows-point-in-a-sorted-table Some interesting comments there. I like the one about A..Z and Z..A for alpha, 1..9 and 9..1 for numeric, 1..12 and 12..1 for dates. Perhaps Jan..Dec and Dec..Jan would make it easier to read, but I think it's leaps more descriptive than arrows. cheers, -- alecu -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Unity-design] Let's talk about sorting arrows
I would file a bug against the light-themes on launchpad. Design can take a look at it from there and decide what to do. This is one of the most critical times to file such a bug with the next LTS around the corner (Which is shaping up to be quite the treat even if I'm much more interested in 14.10 XD). I'm not quite sure how this is handled with the new UI Toolkit coming up, but I'm sure another bug can be created if necessary with regards to that if it's an issue there as well. I'm going to CC MPT since this seems like something he might be behind. AND since I CC'd MPT, I went ahead and created the bug so time won't be wasted for waiting around. Bug #1282897 [1] As an aside: nice to see you sticking around the community! [1]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-themes/+bug/1282897 On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Sam Hulick s...@samhulick.com wrote: Hey all, I wanted to bring up something which I feel has been a glaring design issue in Linux in general for ages now. While we can't change every distribution out there, I'm hoping the Ubuntu design team will consider this. The direction of sorting arrows in Ubuntu (and most GTK apps) is completely backwards from pretty much every other operating system and application out there. Check out this collage of just a few different applications (both native and web) that show that an arrow pointing up means sort in ascending order, and an arrow pointing down means sort in a descending order. Examples: http://i.imgur.com/jx4tnMM.jpg Of course there are way more examples than just this. Is it feasible for Ubuntu to push to change this? I'm sure there will be a lot of push back from people saying to leave it alone and this is how it should be. But I'd argue against that, and if we were to choose a standard, it would definitely fall in line with the examples I've shown above. Thoughts? -- -Sam -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Post to : unity-design@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~unity-design More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
