Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave - Guy Laren's comparison to Campus Inn project
Kimm Tynan wrote: Melani, If a small, vocal group of our UC neighbors continues to reject the restrictions which a local HD would impose, then, because of the increasing popularity of our neighborhood, we are probably beginning an era of tear-downs and requests for changes in height. This is a false dichotomy and red herring. There¹s absolutely no reason that a historic district is the only way to maintain height restrictions. It¹s not an either or choice. I agree, kimm. and this was spelled out here pretty early on, back in october 2007, about the proposed hotel at 40th and pine. how this a ZONING question, not a historic preservation question: http://www.mail-archive.com/univcity@list.purple.com/msg20121.html it's odd that anyone would still be stuck on seeing this as an issue about historic preservation, and then use that false premise to justify support for a 10-story slab on that property. hotel opponents have been trying to protect a NEIGHBORHOOD, through responsible zoning, and have argued that neighbors would welcome 'responsible development' of the site: http://www.mail-archive.com/univcity@list.purple.com/msg21283.html .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.
Melani You make a good point about not personalizing issues.? I have known you to be passionate about many UC issues, but always with well-reasoned and well-intended purposes.? In addition, your passion has always been backed up with action.? I agree that I doubt that you will?benefit personally in any financial manner from your support of the 10 story hotel.? It is always a shame when community members, who share?interests in supporting their neighbors and their community, get so passionate about individual causes that they end up angry at each other. However, outside of the issue of keeping Spruce Hill residents united, is the issue that Karen aptly raises: that if the hotel is allowed to obliterate the zoning standards of three story. 35 feet high? side yards rear yards? adequate parking then how will the neighbors and Spruce Hill justify fighting the same request from other developers all over Spruce Hill?? Certainly it's going to be an enormous issue at the 4224 Baltimore Ave site.? There's going to be some kind of battle at that site in the near future.? The owner, Mr Campanella, is a large developer who does lots of drug store boxes.? He's also done?luxury high rise condos and other large-scale projects.? I believe that he's also been indicted twice for assorted crimes, but I can only find the one on Google (his recent conviction for bribing a public official). I can assure you that Mr Campanella is not taking the 4224 Baltimore bldg down because he wants to put two or three historically sensitive single family homes up. I guess what I'm asking you is:? do you acknowledge Karen's point that the precedent set by the Hotel will make a dangerously strong argument for future developments in the UC area? -Original Message- From: mlam...@aol.com To: kallena...@msn.com; univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 9:03 pm Subject: Re: [UC] Demolition alert:? 4224 Baltimore Ave. In a message dated 2/10/09 3:02:09 PM, kallena...@msn.com writes: Well, geez, Melani, ya know, I'd really like to get upset about that but I'm going to be busy fighting a 10-story building at 40th and Pine. I can only fight one building desecration at a time. Maybe Tom Lussenhop, Ed?Halligan, Jeff Block, Danny DeRitis, Dave Adelman, Barry Grossbach, Mike Hardy, that blonde woman from 41st and Pine and the gang?at the Spruce Hill Zoning Committee can help you. Well, geez, Melani, ya know, I'd really like to get upset about that but I'm going to be busy fighting a 10-story building at 40th and Pine. I can only fight one building desecration at a time. Maybe Tom Lussenhop, Ed?Halligan, Jeff Block, Danny DeRitis, Dave Adelman, Barry Grossbach, Mike Hardy, that blonde woman from 41st and Pine and the gang?at the Spruce Hill Zoning Committee can help you. Karen, I'm sorry that you feel the need to personalize the things that I write about on the listservs.? What I write is not meant to be about you!? When you respond this way, I'm afraid that it may make you look unprofessional, unfortunately. You are a well-spoken attorney, and when you testify before city officials, you present your viewpoint clearly and compellingly.? I am always glad, when you and I are working together in front of the Zoning Board as representatives of? the CPN zoning committee, that you speak so eloquently on CPN's behalf.? I don't know why you want to write in this other way, to and about me, in front of the listserv audience. The hotel issue is clearly something about which you and I have differing opinions - my focus is on restoring the Italianate building; your concern is with the height issue and the new building's appearance and potential uses.? I think that each of our opinions has merit, and I regret that many folks have become so unpleasant in their passion.? I think that this has led to exaggerations and stretching of the truth, which is regrettable. With your suggestion on Monday that the hotel's most strident and outspoken supporters.just happen to be mostly real estate agents and your comment that All of this is to say that 'the community'?can be hijacked by those with?self interests?who are willing to throw the actual?community under the Penn bus, you imply that I, as a real estate agent and supporter, have something personal to gain by a hotel going into that location.? I don't; to the contrary, it will actually be competition for my Carriage House on 46th St., which I rent out for similar short term stay uses, to the very types of visitors which the Campus Inn expects to attract!? And if the hotel is built, it will not present me with any sales opportunities, and I have never worked as an agent for Tom Lussenhop, David Adelman, or the University of Pennsylvania.? To the contrary, lending my name in support of this project actually has the potential to COST me future real estate business, since those who dis! agree with me are unlikely to call
RE: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.
My only reply is this: Responding that way would only make me look unprofessional if I were to walk into court or the Zoning Board hearings and say that. But I'm not stating a professional position in a professional setting; I'm stating my personal opinion in a public forum. When speaking on this list, I retain the right to speak as myself with my own opinions and voice. For whatever reason, you manage to drag the fact that I'm a lawyer into virtually every discussion that involves me, whether on the listserv or in CPN matters. For the record: I know that I'm a lawyer; I don't have to be reminded of it 24/7. Believe it or not, I do not feel the need to throw the fact that I'm a lawyer into everyone's face. That is my job, not my life. It's what I do; not what I am. And I will choose when it's appropriate to disclose that fact. It's something that I turn on when I'm at work, and turn off the rest of the time. I have never tried to use my job or JD degree as a bludgeon to silence or intimidate others (well, YOU don't know what YOU'RE talking about because I'M a LAWYER, and I KNOW...). I have never used that to give my opinions give any added weight, because I believe that I can defend my opinions on their own merits without having to inject inflated ego into the mix. Apart from those who may know me personally, I'm sure there are a lot of listserv readers who may not even know that I'm a lawyer were it not for you telling them, because I rarely have reason to mention it. In fact, when I testified at the myriad Campus Inn hearings, I never did so as an attorney, or tried to claim some professional aura for my private opinions. I made it clear that I did not live in Spruce Hill, and that I was testifying as a resident of University City who was concerned about the broader implications if that project was allowed to go forward. Broader implications such as what may be on the horizon at 43rd and Baltimore. Once opened, the Pandora's box Al Krigman referred to can never be closed. From: mlam...@aol.comdate: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:03:56 -0500Subject: Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.To: kallena...@msn.com; univc...@list.purple.comin a message dated 2/10/09 3:02:09 PM, kallena...@msn.com writes: Well, geez, Melani, ya know, I'd really like to get upset about that but I'm going to be busy fighting a 10-story building at 40th and Pine. I can only fight one building desecration at a time. Maybe Tom Lussenhop, Ed Halligan, Jeff Block, Danny DeRitis, Dave Adelman, Barry Grossbach, Mike Hardy, that blonde woman from 41st and Pine and the gang at the Spruce Hill Zoning Committee can help you.Karen, I'm sorry that you feel the need to personalize the things that I write about on the listservs. What I write is not meant to be about you! When you respond this way, I'm afraid that it may make you look unprofessional, unfortunately. You are a well-spoken attorney, and when you testify before city officials, you present your viewpoint clearly and compellingly. I am always glad, when you and I are working together in front of the Zoning Board as representatives of the CPN zoning committee, that you speak so eloquently on CPN's behalf. I don't know why you want to write in this other way, to and about me, in front of the listserv audience.The hotel issue is clearly something about which you and I have differing opinions - my focus is on restoring the Italianate building; your concern is with the height issue and the new building's appearance and potential uses. I think that each of our opinions has merit, and I regret that many folks have become so unpleasant in their passion. I think that this has led to exaggerations and stretching of the truth, which is regrettable. With your suggestion on Monday that the hotel's most strident and outspoken supporters.just happen to be mostly real estate agents and your comment that All of this is to say that 'the community' can be hijacked by those with self interests who are willing to throw the actual community under the Penn bus, you imply that I, as a real estate agent and supporter, have something personal to gain by a hotel going into that location. I don't; to the contrary, it will actually be competition for my Carriage House on 46th St., which I rent out for similar short term stay uses, to the very types of visitors which the Campus Inn expects to attract! And if the hotel is built, it will not present me with any sales opportunities, and I have never worked as an agent for Tom Lussenhop, David Adelman, or the University of Pennsylvania. To the contrary, lending my name in support of this project actually has the potential to COST me future real estate business, since those who disagree with me are unlikely to call me when they want to buy or sell houses. What do you see as my self interest? As a pragmatic preservationist, I merely want to see the old house restored!You,
Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave - Guy Laren's comparison to Campus Inn project
mlam...@aol.com wrote: Alas, the proposed inn's location at 40th Pine is not in a local historic district! If it were, then the developers would not be able to tear it down, AND they would not be able to build a tall building, and perhaps more UC neighbors would be satisfied! the reason the developer can't tear down the mansion is because it's individually designated, that's what lussenhop originally wanted to rescind when he went before the phc back in spring 2007. but the phc denied its being delisted in july 2007: http://tinyurl.com/2zmxx9 your argument for supporting historic districts is misplaced here. in fact, your arguing for a 10-story hotel at 40th and pine is AGAINST everything that historic districts are designed to protect (streetscapes, fabric, ensembles, etc.) the question has always been a zoning question, and it happens to involve a property that penn purchased, knowing that it was a designated property. zoning is a tool to protect residential areas from unwanted commercial (or other) development; that is what's being defended here -- and what you are missing, because you keep arguing that the only way to defend it is with an historic district. all this was pointed out to you earlier, onlist, in oct 2007, and I'm surprised you're still trying to make this argument: http://www.mail-archive.com/univcity@list.purple.com/msg20121.html .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave - Guy Laren's comparison to Campus Inn project
Melani, Guy, you ask a good question here, but I don't see why you attribute it to Karen. Her disparaging email to me, cc'd to the list, didn't comment on precedent; it was personal. It seemed pretty apparent to me that Karen was making the point that the supporters of the hotel opened the door to the precedent that could lead to another high rise on Campanella¹s property, which precedent is the reason many of us oppose the hotel. If a small, vocal group of our UC neighbors continues to reject the restrictions which a local HD would impose, then, because of the increasing popularity of our neighborhood, we are probably beginning an era of tear-downs and requests for changes in height. This is a false dichotomy and red herring. There¹s absolutely no reason that a historic district is the only way to maintain height restrictions. It¹s not an either or choice. Kimm On 2/11/09 11:57 AM, mlam...@aol.com mlam...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/11/09 4:30:50 AM, lom...@aol.com writes: Melani You make a good point about not personalizing issues. I have known you to be passionate about many UC issues, but always with well-reasoned and well-intended purposes. In addition, your passion has always been backed up with action. I agree that I doubt that you will benefit personally in any financial manner from your support of the 10 story hotel. It is always a shame when community members, who share interests in supporting their neighbors and their community, get so passionate about individual causes that they end up angry at each other. However, outside of the issue of keeping Spruce Hill residents united, is the issue that Karen aptly raises: that if the hotel is allowed to obliterate the zoning standards of three story. 35 feet high side yards rear yards adequate parking then how will the neighbors and Spruce Hill justify fighting the same request from other developers all over Spruce Hill? Certainly it's going to be an enormous issue at the 4224 Baltimore Ave site. There's going to be some kind of battle at that site in the near future. The owner, Mr Campanella, is a large developer who does lots of drug store boxes. He's also done luxury high rise condos and other large-scale projects. I believe that he's also been indicted twice for assorted crimes, but I can only find the one on Google (his recent conviction for bribing a public official). I can assure you that Mr Campanella is not taking the 4224 Baltimore bldg down because he wants to put two or three historically sensitive single family homes up. I guess what I'm asking you is: do you acknowledge Karen's point that the precedent set by the Hotel will make a dangerously strong argument for future developments in the UC area? Guy, you ask a good question here, but I don't see why you attribute it to Karen. Her disparaging email to me, cc'd to the list, didn't comment on precedent; it was personal. My response was that I am saddened by her resort to personal attacks, when her views could better be substantiated with reasoned argument - as you've made here. It is a pleasant change to read a message on this listserv about the proposed Campus Inn from someone who states his thoughts reasonably, without malice or exaggerated accusations. Thank you for setting a positive tone. In answer to your question, first I'll repeat that I would like to see the Italianate building on Pine Street saved and restored. That's my motivation; it is not exactly that I can't wait to see a 10-story building next door - but I don't oppose it, either, because the new building is the trade-off which will provide funds for the old building's restoration. I see this as a pragmatic solution. I believe that the precedent for taller buildings in residential areas was set years ago, when the 6-story Garden Court apartments (1922; now condos, no parking) and the 13-story Garden Court Plaza (1926-1930, with parking) were built adjacent to single homes; and when the 10-story Fairfax Apartments building (1926; no parking) was built right up against the backs of the row houses on St. Mark's Square, without setbacks from the St. Mark's rear yards. In each of these cases, the taller buildings seem not to have had a negative impact on their residential settings; for these locations are about the most desirable and expensive for University City homeowners today! Drive north on 43rd or 46th St. at this time of year, when there are no leaves on the trees - these tall buildings will pop out at you above the house rooftops, if you are looking for them - but if you're walking by and not purposely looking, they blend into the landscape we are familiar with in our neighborhood. I think that a taller building at 40th Pine won't be any more intrusive, will soon be just as familiar. Alas, the proposed inn's location at 40th Pine is not in a local historic district! If it
Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.
mlam...@aol.com wrote: Our community would be so much better off if we could look more closely at the merit of the issues before us, rather than only at the names of the persons supporting or opposing them. And we'd lead much less stressful lives if we could respect one another's' different opinions, honestly fight the good fight, and then shake hands and move forward without being vocal, angry enemies for life Let us try to work in thoughtful, professional ways, even if we have different opinions. melani, would you acknowledge that you respect the overwhelming opinion of so many of your neighbors that was demonstrated at the 13 feb 2007 meeting? where they gave their opinions, backed by the merits of their good reason, against the hotel? have you fought the 'good fight' and supported your neighbors before any of the city agencies that have ruled on this hotel (phc, pcpc, the architect committee)? have you understood why this is a zoning issue, and why it was important to uphold zoning as a way to protect both the mansion and the neighborhood -- as well as future properties throughout the neighborhood, whether they're historic or not? the time to see this issue as more than just personal passed long ago. the time to come together and support and respect those with different opinions is still ahead of you, at the upcoming zba hearing. The second half of the ZBA hearing on the Campus Inn is scheduled for Feb 19 at 2:00 pm, 1515 Arch St, 18th Floor. .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.
Ray asks of Melani that she respect the overwhelming opinion of one meeting he feels his side got good turnout at. He does not ask her to respect the opinion of any meeting he feels his side got poor turnout at. His side's meeting constitutes your neighbors. Melani's side's meeting constitutes not your neighbors. Healthy political rhetoric, to which Melani has healthy comebacks. But that's why ZBA, or any other public body, exists: to sort through conflicting claims when a community is split politically. In the end, it won't be anybody on UC-list that calls this shot. -- Tony West melani, would you acknowledge that you respect the overwhelming opinion of so many of your neighbors that was demonstrated at the 13 feb 2007 meeting? where they gave their opinions, backed by the merits of their good reason, against the hotel? The second half of the ZBA hearing on the Campus Inn is scheduled for Feb 19 at 2:00 pm, 1515 Arch St, 18th Floor. .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave - Guy Laren's comparison to Campus Inn project
That is the $64 question, isn't it? There are similarities but also differences. A lot of folks will be taking a close look at this one, won't they? -- Tony West Kimm Tynan wrote: It seemed pretty apparent to me that Karen was making the point that the supporters of the hotel opened the door to the precedent that could lead to another high rise on Campanella’s property, which precedent is the reason many of us oppose the hotel. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
[UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.
I am copying below a letter, which is now being circulated, sent by LI to neighboring properties of 4224 Baltimore Ave. I'm not technologically able to put the letter online where you all can look at the actual letter, but if someone would like to do that, I can scan send it to you. The Campenella name may ring a bell: he was the developer planning the proposed homeless shelter at 45th Chestnut several years ago. - Melani Lamond ___ City of Philadelphia Department of Licenses Inspections January 28, 2009 NOTICE OF PENDING DEMOLITION FOR PROPERTY LOCATED AT: 04224 BALTIMORE AVE Pursuant to the requirements of The Philadelphia Code, Title 4, Subcode A, Section A-303-2, you are being notified by this Informational Bulletin that the structure located at the subject address is scheduled for demolition to begin on or after July 3, 2008. (Then, that date is crossed out, and this is handwritten:) Jan. 28, 2009 In accordance with The Philadelphia Code, this notice is provided as an informational courtesy only and does not create any actionable right for any resident or owner of the subject property or any neighboring property. For information concerning the demolition, please contact: CAMPANELLA JAMES ASSOC INC 1601 S CHRIS COLUMBUS BLV PHILADELPHIA,PA 19148-1404 Klehr Harrison Harvey Ronald J. Patterson, Esquire Perry Cocco (this is handwritten in, above the name below which is crossed out): Steve Gallagher, Supervisor West District 43rd and Market Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-2969 215-685-7680 This is the building on the south side of Baltimore which sits high up on a hill, back from the street, and has the empty lot next to it which used to be a community garden. The building formerly housed a women's shelter. It's across Baltimore Ave. from the original Green Line, and across 43rd St. from Clark Park. From the UC Historical Society website: 4224-26 Baltimore Ave John Neil McGarvey, developer c.1860 E.A. Wilson, architect for renovations c.1920 Two, three-story, two-bay, brick with stone facade Second Empire, semi-detached houses. Distinguishing features include stone and iron fence around terraced yard, porch, segmentally arched windows, bracketed cornice, convex mansard roof with pedimented dormers and slate shingles, ground floor bay windows. 2 Contributing. Melani Lamond, Associate Broker Urban Bye, Realtor PA License Number AB048377L 3529 Lancaster Ave., Philadelphia, PA 19104 cell phone 215-356-7266 - office phone 215-222-4800 #113 ** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.
In a message dated 2/10/2009 1:41:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mlam...@aol.com writes: I am copying below a letter, which is now being circulated, sent by LI to neighboring properties [about the scheduled demolition] of 4224 Baltimore Ave. I'm not technologically able to put the letter online where you all can look at the actual letter, but if someone would like to do that, I can scan send it to you. The Campenella name may ring a bell: he was the developer planning the proposed homeless shelter at 45th Chestnut several years ago. Melani: Is the city demolishing it, or is LI just notifying adjacent owners/residents that the demolition is taking place? If the owner is demolishing it, maybe we better be prepared for a proposal to build a high-rise that takes up both the lot it's on and the lot on the SE corner of 43rd Baltimore. If a precedence is set at 40th Pine, who can say how far it will go? If OK shoehorned onto the lot at 40th Pine, the argument would be weak to stop it at the edge of Clark Park where presumably there would be lots of space for proper setbacks, parking, a drive to pick-up and drop-off people, etc. I don't have to reiterate the story of Pandora's box to suggest the implications. Enquiring minds want to know, Al Krigman **The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
RE: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.
Well, geez, Melani, ya know, I'd really like to get upset about that but I'm going to be busy fighting a 10-story building at 40th and Pine. I can only fight one building desecration at a time. Maybe Tom Lussenhop, Ed Halligan, Jeff Block, Danny DeRitis, Dave Adelman, Barry Grossbach, Mike Hardy, that blonde woman from 41st and Pine and the gang at the Spruce Hill Zoning Committee can help you. From: krf...@aol.comdate: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:03:54 -0500Subject: Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave.To: UnivCity@list.purple.com In a message dated 2/10/2009 1:41:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mlam...@aol.com writes: I am copying below a letter, which is now being circulated, sent by LI to neighboring properties [about the scheduled demolition] of 4224 Baltimore Ave. I'm not technologically able to put the letter online where you all can look at the actual letter, but if someone would like to do that, I can scan send it to you.The Campenella name may ring a bell: he was the developer planning the proposed homeless shelter at 45th Chestnut several years ago. Melani: Is the city demolishing it, or is LI just notifying adjacent owners/residents that the demolition is taking place? If the owner is demolishing it, maybe we better be prepared for a proposal to build a high-rise that takes up both the lot it's on and the lot on the SE corner of 43rd Baltimore. If a precedence is set at 40th Pine, who can say how far it will go? If OK shoehorned onto the lot at 40th Pine, the argument would be weak to stop it at the edge of Clark Park where presumably there would be lots of space for proper setbacks, parking, a drive to pick-up and drop-off people, etc. I don't have to reiterate the story of Pandora's box to suggest the implications. Enquiring minds want to know, Al Krigman The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there.
Re: [UC] Demolition alert: 4224 Baltimore Ave. - why who what for
Y' all may want to start doing some research. 1) Is the building be demo' ed, because the developer. too late realized it was not suitable for condo conversion _http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DEEDB1038F937A25757C0A963948260_ (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DEEDB1038F937A25757C0A963948260) 2) Or, it is more economical to pay property tax on vacant land than one with an already assessed building? ( And, we know, Jim hates to pay RE tax.) 3) Of course a value driven NY developer like _http://www.thylan.com/_ (http://www.thylan.com/) is not going to let his money under produce in today's economy, when many union pension funds are funding developments to keep their people working, their unions strong, and their funds earning better than market rates or is avoid market losses. Nice foot print + park location + great trolley lines + inadequate on-street parking = nice high rise development. I will not admonish you, but fear for an unanticipated changing lifestyle can be crippling. Perhaps, it is time to set aside your wimpy leftist lifestyles, as people with power and money who aren't really from the hood - take it over. Or, you can just take your money and run after Obama's taxmen take their big cuts. Why not try upholding a more American lifestyle - Nemo Me Impune Lacessit Ciao, Craig **The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
