Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
" UCneighbors was created a couple years ago (by Kyle Cassidy) in reaction to some of the unpleasant behavior on the Purple list."Colleen, most of what Linda states is correct. The above statement is not completely correct. In fact, the unpleasant behavior on this public forum over two years ago, came from the founding members of the UC Neighbors. (The post by Mr. West is an example of what we once faced daily to distract everyone from community issues. But don't worry, this is no longer typical on this open public listserv.)UC Neighbors is the University of Pennsylvania's experiment with censorship and control of public communication in adjacent communities. Hosted by the Annenberg School of Communication and sanctioned by the University President, Amy Gutmann; it is a bold and blatant violation of the published university policy on open _expression_ and electronic resources. (The other two listservs are open to the public, with public archives, and stand out as vital forums for open public community discussions.)Background: Over two years ago, several cyber-bullies were looking to control neighborhood discussions. Their regular techniques to bully our neighbors had been thoroughly exposed, and they were appropriately humiliated. For example, the founders of UC Neighbors, such as Mr. Cassidy, showed perverse pleasure at the murder of a homeless man just before claiming the need for civility! They called for "suicide" and use of a "death ray," and called people names like "processaholics" to silence discussion of university gentrification agendas. They spread dishonest information and used fallacious argumentation techniques such as ad hominem, straw man, red herring, etc. to bully and silence discussion.Their main political agenda had pushed for an end to democratic processes and an end to open discussion in the neighborhood, while advancing the need for transferring government to the rule of University of Pennsylvania real estate executives. Falsely claiming "incivility" as Linda reminds us; the university hosted their closed censored forum, UC Neighbors. The leading neighborhood voices against the policies of a university take over and a local plutocracy were boldly "pre-banned" from UC Neighbors. All other community members were purposely intimidated with the knowledge that this Mr. Cassidy could silence anyone, at anytime, for any reason, if they engaged in prohibited community dissent. Exploiting the power of links to the massive Penn network of computers, and with support by Penn agencies such as UCD; the bullies simultaneously attempted to destroy the open discussion forums with posts like Mr. West's. (Our neighbor, Wilma, immediately pointed out the difference between Penn hosted censorship forums and the formation of a private discussion group for bullies, through an appropriate site like Yahoo or google.) Mr. Cassidy could have set up a private fan club not advertised by the powerful immense Penn computer network. Colleen, some of our neighbors would like to dismiss the censorship and pre-banning of dissent supported by the powerful University. They would like to see it as just another discussion forum, while attacks like Mr. West's, try to damage the open public forum . But the closing down of democratic societies seldom happens instantaneously! The open public listserv has proven to be one of the most powerful tools against deception and oppression by powerful forces attempting to rule this neighborhood. It is the freedom of the press in action! That is why it is such a target.Penn has just claimed to be the best community neighbor in the country. The success or exposure of the university's censorship policy to destroy the freedom of the press in targeted communities is being studied right now! (Consider: Is this neighborhood the only part of the country facing the attempt to control public information by dishonest but powerful forces?) Try to access the archives of UC Neighbors. And look at this false commitment to public discourse by Penn's former President. (The current President Gutmann is well aware of the censorship by UC Neighbors and the violation of the published claims about "open _expression_.") Does banning dissent or using university censorship power seem consistent with these dishonest but official platitudes?http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1103/rodin3.htmlBanned from UC Neighbors and proud of it,Glenn Moyer -Original Message- From: Linda Lee <l...@verizon.net> Sent: Nov 10, 2009 12:47 AM To: purple <univcity@list.purple.com>, Colleen Pinney <cwpin...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity Hi Colleen,To answer your question: absolutely nothing. The info (below) is useless (to you) and only 'meaningful' to a handful of people. Just fyi, there are currently (that I know of ) three local email groups: the "purple" list (which
Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
: Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity Hi Colleen, To answer your question: absolutely nothing. The info (below) is useless (to you) and only 'meaningful' to a handful of people. Just fyi, there are currently (that I know of ) three local email groups: the purple list (which you have posted on), the PFSNI list (comprised mostly of Penn faculty and staff and some students), and UCneighbors. Purple and PFSNI have been around for many years. UCneighbors was created a couple years ago (by Kyle Cassidy) in reaction to some of the unpleasant behavior on the Purple list. Some folks are on just one list, some are on two lists, and others (like myself) choose to be on all three. Tony, Kyle, and Glenn are all members of the community, but are probably not on all the same lists. (Actually, I believe Tony is on both Purple and UCneighbors, Glenn is just on Purple, and Kyle is on UCneighbors.) Some folks don't always share the same opinions, which sometimes results in little outbursts like the one you responded to. Some of the posts can be quite petty and are not representative of the larger lists. What is unfortunate is that there are 'good' dialogues on both Purple and UCneighbors that often don't cross over unless someone cross-lists a post or someone on one list forwards it to the other (which often makes for uneven responding). That is the problem/frustration with having more than one list for essentially the same purpose. I would just stick with it and ignore and delete any posts that don't seem to make sense to you. Usually, it is because they are senseless. :-) If you want a wider range of info I would recommend also joining the UCneighbors list: http://lists.asc.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/ucneighbors FYI, while there are hundreds of folks on these lists, there are relatively few who actually write/post to the lists (I'm guessing around 25, maybe less?). Hopefully that will change in the future. take care, Linda On Nov 9, 2009, at 11:05 PM, Colleen Pinney wrote: What does a new-comer (not to west philly,I have lived here for 32 years as an adult) do with this info?) Who is Kyle? Who is Tony? What is the business rivalry? --- On *Mon, 11/9/09, Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net* wrote: From: Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net Subject: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity To: Univcity Univcity@list.purple.com Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:33 PM From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.comhttp://mc/compose?to=univc...@list.purple.com ). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.eduhttp://mc/compose?to=ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu ). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see .
Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
As for the UCNeighbors listserv, or as you say Kyle's listserv, was expressly created to exclude the opinions and/or the persons who stated them. Wilma, I recently reread your initial comments when barkingche...@upenn.edu was first formed. You were right on target! As we are bombarded with the attempts to control public misinformation around the country, your prediction about the use of Penn servers, rather than a private Yahoo gang, has come to pass. Penn President, Amy Gutmann, continues to host barking cheese and supports a de facto establishment of censorship to control communication in an adjacent community. This is our good neighbor and salvation of our cities. Compare the rhetoric of this Rodin writing and official Penn propaganda position, with the reality of Penn based censorship. It would be laughable if the implications were not so frightening: http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1103/rodin3.html Glenn PS: All of you did a great community service when you started the open public list. Thank you!!! -Original Message- From: Wilma de Soto wil.p...@verizon.net Sent: Nov 9, 2009 9:31 PM To: Frank fcarr...@pobox.com, UnivCity listserv UnivCity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity Dear Tony and Frank, Permit me to hearken back to Linda Lee's post with regard to the final word about lost pets posts. I quite understand her assertions about 'lurkers' who are afraid to post, and the fact sometimes we post as if there is no else save us and we are known to everyone. Glenn posts on the UC Listserv frequently. However it is not Glenn's listserv. It is a community listserv, born of some Spruce Hill Board Officers wishing to communicate by e-mail with other SHCA Officers in order to shore up a membership database and check whether SHCA were current. At the time, Nick Sanders was Treasurer of SHCA and I was membership Chair/Co-Chair. Later, Nick Sanders uploaded this onto the now defunct community groups web, Liberty Net. Jeff Abramson, SHCA Internet Chair, extended the listserv to all, through Purple and graciously hosted it for YEARS! Kudos! Please remember this is a community listserv accessible to ALL may partake in any discussion that might affect them. It is NOT; Glenn's listserv. Indeed it could be partially mine and/or Nick Sanders and/or Jeff Abramson. As for the UCNeighbors listserv, or as you say Kyle's listserv, was expressly created to exclude the opinions and/or the persons who stated them. I would not join even though I had been asked to because I do not believe in blocking arguments or posts which annoy me. Our community is our community and one has to tolerate all sorts. With no offense to Glenn, this is not Glenn's listserv; rather the University City Listserv. On 11/9/09 6:57 PM, Frank fcarr...@pobox.com wrote: Are you serious?!?! Are we in grade school?? Frank On Nov 9, 2009, at 6:33 PM, Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote: From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.com). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
Substitute Martians for Penn in this disjointed screed and I think you'd have a much better idea of the kind of mind that produced it. - Mike V. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Glenn moyer glen...@earthlink.net wrote: As for the UCNeighbors listserv, or as you say Kyle's listserv, was expressly created to exclude the opinions and/or the persons who stated them. Wilma, I recently reread your initial comments when barkingche...@upenn.edu was first formed. You were right on target! As we are bombarded with the attempts to control public misinformation around the country, your prediction about the use of Penn servers, rather than a private Yahoo gang, has come to pass. Penn President, Amy Gutmann, continues to host barking cheese and supports a de facto establishment of censorship to control communication in an adjacent community. This is our good neighbor and salvation of our cities. Compare the rhetoric of this Rodin writing and official Penn propaganda position, with the reality of Penn based censorship. It would be laughable if the implications were not so frightening: http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1103/rodin3.html Glenn PS: All of you did a great community service when you started the open public list. Thank you!!! -Original Message- From: Wilma de Soto wil.p...@verizon.net Sent: Nov 9, 2009 9:31 PM To: Frank fcarr...@pobox.com, UnivCity listserv UnivCity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity Dear Tony and Frank, Permit me to hearken back to Linda Lee's post with regard to the final word about lost pets posts. I quite understand her assertions about 'lurkers' who are afraid to post, and the fact sometimes we post as if there is no else save us and we are known to everyone. Glenn posts on the UC Listserv frequently. However it is not Glenn's listserv. It is a community listserv, born of some Spruce Hill Board Officers wishing to communicate by e-mail with other SHCA Officers in order to shore up a membership database and check whether SHCA were current. At the time, Nick Sanders was Treasurer of SHCA and I was membership Chair/Co-Chair. Later, Nick Sanders uploaded this onto the now defunct community groups web, Liberty Net. Jeff Abramson, SHCA Internet Chair, extended the listserv to all, through Purple and graciously hosted it for YEARS! Kudos! Please remember this is a community listserv accessible to ALL may partake in any discussion that might affect them. It is NOT; Glenn's listserv. Indeed it could be partially mine and/or Nick Sanders and/or Jeff Abramson. As for the UCNeighbors listserv, or as you say Kyle's listserv, was expressly created to exclude the opinions and/or the persons who stated them. I would not join even though I had been asked to because I do not believe in blocking arguments or posts which annoy me. Our community is our community and one has to tolerate all sorts. With no offense to Glenn, this is not Glenn's listserv; rather the University City Listserv. On 11/9/09 6:57 PM, Frank fcarr...@pobox.com wrote: Are you serious?!?! Are we in grade school?? Frank On Nov 9, 2009, at 6:33 PM, Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote: From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.com). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
[UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.com). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
Are you serious?!?! Are we in grade school?? Frank On Nov 9, 2009, at 6:33 PM, Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote: From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.com). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
Dear Tony and Frank, Permit me to hearken back to Linda Lee's post with regard to the final word about lost pets posts. I quite understand her assertions about 'lurkers' who are afraid to post, and the fact sometimes we post as if there is no else save us and we are known to everyone. Glenn posts on the UC Listserv frequently. However it is not Glenn's listserv. It is a community listserv, born of some Spruce Hill Board Officers wishing to communicate by e-mail with other SHCA Officers in order to shore up a membership database and check whether SHCA were current. At the time, Nick Sanders was Treasurer of SHCA and I was membership Chair/Co-Chair. Later, Nick Sanders uploaded this onto the now defunct community groups web, Liberty Net. Jeff Abramson, SHCA Internet Chair, extended the listserv to all, through Purple and graciously hosted it for YEARS! Kudos! Please remember this is a community listserv accessible to ALL may partake in any discussion that might affect them. It is NOT; Glenn's listserv. Indeed it could be partially mine and/or Nick Sanders and/or Jeff Abramson. As for the UCNeighbors listserv, or as you say Kyle's listserv, was expressly created to exclude the opinions and/or the persons who stated them. I would not join even though I had been asked to because I do not believe in blocking arguments or posts which annoy me. Our community is our community and one has to tolerate all sorts. With no offense to Glenn, this is not Glenn's listserv; rather the University City Listserv. On 11/9/09 6:57 PM, Frank fcarr...@pobox.com wrote: Are you serious?!?! Are we in grade school?? Frank On Nov 9, 2009, at 6:33 PM, Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote: From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.com). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
What does a new-comer (not to west philly,I have lived here for 32 years as an adult) do with this info?) Who is Kyle? Who is Tony? What is the business rivalry? --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net Subject: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity To: Univcity Univcity@list.purple.com Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:33 PM From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.com). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
You always remember your first. ;-) On 11/9/09 6:33 PM, Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote: From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.com). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity
Hi Colleen, To answer your question: absolutely nothing. The info (below) is useless (to you) and only 'meaningful' to a handful of people. Just fyi, there are currently (that I know of ) three local email groups: the purple list (which you have posted on), the PFSNI list (comprised mostly of Penn faculty and staff and some students), and UCneighbors. Purple and PFSNI have been around for many years. UCneighbors was created a couple years ago (by Kyle Cassidy) in reaction to some of the unpleasant behavior on the Purple list. Some folks are on just one list, some are on two lists, and others (like myself) choose to be on all three. Tony, Kyle, and Glenn are all members of the community, but are probably not on all the same lists. (Actually, I believe Tony is on both Purple and UCneighbors, Glenn is just on Purple, and Kyle is on UCneighbors.) Some folks don't always share the same opinions, which sometimes results in little outbursts like the one you responded to. Some of the posts can be quite petty and are not representative of the larger lists. What is unfortunate is that there are 'good' dialogues on both Purple and UCneighbors that often don't cross over unless someone cross-lists a post or someone on one list forwards it to the other (which often makes for uneven responding). That is the problem/frustration with having more than one list for essentially the same purpose. I would just stick with it and ignore and delete any posts that don't seem to make sense to you. Usually, it is because they are senseless. :-) If you want a wider range of info I would recommend also joining the UCneighbors list: http://lists.asc.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/ucneighbors FYI, while there are hundreds of folks on these lists, there are relatively few who actually write/post to the lists (I'm guessing around 25, maybe less?). Hopefully that will change in the future. take care, Linda On Nov 9, 2009, at 11:05 PM, Colleen Pinney wrote: What does a new-comer (not to west philly,I have lived here for 32 years as an adult) do with this info?) Who is Kyle? Who is Tony? What is the business rivalry? --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Anthony West anthony_w...@earthlink.net Subject: [UC] Glenn's List vs. Kyle's List: a measure of popularity To: Univcity Univcity@list.purple.com Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:33 PM From 6pm Sunday to 6pm Monday, 5 comments about the impact of the SEPTA strike on our neighborhood -- a hot neighborhood topic -- were posted on Glenn's List (UnivCity@list.purple.com). During the same timeframe, 18 comments about the same subject were posted on Kyle's List (ucneighb...@lists.asc.upenn.edu). I maintain a presence on Glenn's List because I want to be open to, and keep in touch with, all my neighbors. But Kyle's List is where the hottest discussion of University City issues takes place these days. The thing I like most about Kyle, compared to his business rival, is he isn't constantly heaping personal abuse on his neighbors in West Philadelphia. He never does this, in fact. It's quite refreshing compared to the listserve that Glenn rules. -- Tony West
