Re: [UC] The way he should have handled it, were he not playing CYA so desperately
Glenn, I agree with a lot of what you have written. With two caveats. 1. Frequent posters must be careful when employing fictional devices to avoid confusing, annoying (without purpose) or unfairly offending readers. (You may recall I jumped on you, when one of your posts teetered into areas I consiedered misogynistic and pornographic. And, you made a gracious apology to the list. I consider this behind us, and only used it as an example.) 2. Few on this list are stupid. Many are brilliant. I think all posters should give the benefit of the doubt to readers. Before calling someone "stupid", in digital print, I prefer to imagine them as distracted or at a different point on a learning curve. Glenn, I value your passion and your insights, but... ... your tone, volume and quantity often lead me to delete. I suspect you are making converts for the forces of evil. ;-) Please moderate your posts, so that folks don't find a way to ban you from the lists. Best! Liz On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 09:16:58 -0400 "Glenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: - Original Message - From: Elizabeth F Campion To: UnivCity@list.purple.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [UC] The way he should have handled it, were he not playing CYA so desperately Is this a "When did you stop beating your kid?" question? Or just a continuation of a trend that asks a distracting question that insures that the "guilt" of the person or people who irritate the asker is a 'given', and... ... that the irritators are presumed "blame"-able for something? ... a reminder that the irratatees have a tight little clique and are reading from a similar script. Liz On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 12:41:18 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, Al, are you saying that the Philadelphia candidate, Tom Knox, should have taken the blame for having John Fenton help out with his political rally? Melani Lamond Liz, You really understand what is going on here. And you see this "clique" strategy. Most often, I�ve noticed that it is the group straw man that is used and becomes so intimidating. It becomes one of the biggest causes of the list incivility. I�m glad you publicly and accurately questioned this post. I need to always ask are these uses of fallacious arguments really based on extremely poor reading comprehension? Or is this something much more problematic? Are these strategies actually intentional attempts to dishonestly obfuscate important issues and destroy any chance for honest discussion? Anwser: YES Should they be condemned as mean and a huge original source of incivility? I think civility does not come with fake politeness. Civility requires an ingenuous attempt at communication by the players. When the first person on the list does the "misreading" of someone�s opinion or question, and then another 5 join in the mistake with angry insulting posts; our neighbors who rarely post must be incredibly intimidated. Once we all see the pattern, we can see how mean, destructive, and dishonest the actors are being. Those who engage in these strategies do risk being exposed at a later time, but for a time on this list any outside reader saw "the gang" getting away with this behavior. It was "the free pass" discussed a few months ago. I was very confused at folks for harshly criticizing some of my clear fictions because the imagery was crass while remaining silent to the big obvious destructiveness going on simultaneously. A fiction or satire is an attempt to make the reader think for him or herself and come to their own conclusions of the writer's position. By its clear fictional nature, an honest fictional effort cannot be used like the pretense of a non-fictional but actually fallacious argument or straight out lie. It cannot be as destructive as the deliberate attempt to deceive and intimidate with these fallacious strategies. Constructing obvious fiction is always honest, and non-fiction is often fiction that we sometimes call propaganda or lies. These mean strategies are designed to make a fool of the target, but once exposed, as you clearly understand; they have actually made fools of the writers. It is my opinion, that it becomes very important to challenge these posts. If someone seems to honestly make a misreading, I think it would be mean to respond harshly instead of trying to help clarify. But I assert the right to use any literary device and the right to pull out all literary stops against those using these tactics deliberately. It is an important way to stand up for free speech. If our neighbors are intimidated from participation on this public communication vehicle, aren't their free speech rights being harmed by their neighbors with this intimidation The question should always be the same to the gang. Are you really stupid with a pathetic level of reading comprehension? Or are you t
Re: [UC] The way he should have handled it, were he not playing CYA so desperately
- Original Message - From: Elizabeth F Campion To: UnivCity@list.purple.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [UC] The way he should have handled it, were he not playing CYA so desperately Is this a "When did you stop beating your kid?" question? Or just a continuation of a trend that asks a distracting question that insures that the "guilt" of the person or people who irritate the asker is a 'given', and... ... that the irritators are presumed "blame"-able for something? ... a reminder that the irratatees have a tight little clique and are reading from a similar script. Liz On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 12:41:18 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, Al, are you saying that the Philadelphia candidate, Tom Knox, should have taken the blame for having John Fenton help out with his political rally? Melani Lamond Liz, You really understand what is going on here. And you see this "clique" strategy. Most often, I’ve noticed that it is the group straw man that is used and becomes so intimidating. It becomes one of the biggest causes of the list incivility. I’m glad you publicly and accurately questioned this post. I need to always ask are these uses of fallacious arguments really based on extremely poor reading comprehension? Or is this something much more problematic? Are these strategies actually intentional attempts to dishonestly obfuscate important issues and destroy any chance for honest discussion? Anwser: YES Should they be condemned as mean and a huge original source of incivility? I think civility does not come with fake politeness. Civility requires an ingenuous attempt at communication by the players. When the first person on the list does the "misreading" of someone’s opinion or question, and then another 5 join in the mistake with angry insulting posts; our neighbors who rarely post must be incredibly intimidated. Once we all see the pattern, we can see how mean, destructive, and dishonest the actors are being. Those who engage in these strategies do risk being exposed at a later time, but for a time on this list any outside reader saw "the gang" getting away with this behavior. It was "the free pass" discussed a few months ago. I was very confused at folks for harshly criticizing some of my clear fictions because the imagery was crass while remaining silent to the big obvious destructiveness going on simultaneously. A fiction or satire is an attempt to make the reader think for him or herself and come to their own conclusions of the writer's position. By its clear fictional nature, an honest fictional effort cannot be used like the pretense of a non-fictional but actually fallacious argument or straight out lie. It cannot be as destructive as the deliberate attempt to deceive and intimidate with these fallacious strategies. Constructing obvious fiction is always honest, and non-fiction is often fiction that we sometimes call propaganda or lies. These mean strategies are designed to make a fool of the target, but once exposed, as you clearly understand; they have actually made fools of the writers. It is my opinion, that it becomes very important to challenge these posts. If someone seems to honestly make a misreading, I think it would be mean to respond harshly instead of trying to help clarify. But I assert the right to use any literary device and the right to pull out all literary stops against those using these tactics deliberately. It is an important way to stand up for free speech. If our neighbors are intimidated from participation on this public communication vehicle, aren't their free speech rights being harmed by their neighbors with this intimidation The question should always be the same to the gang. Are you really stupid with a pathetic level of reading comprehension? Or are you trying to be a dishonest bully to confuse and intimidate; and win your position by silencing discussion? These strategies are used by those whose positions can't be backed up by asserting ethical principals. That is why some folks can only resort to these tactics because they know they can't carry their arguments in a fair and honest debate! I have a thick skin because I understood the pattern before joining the list. The first time a person is victimized with this; it gives a horrible feeling and it made me very sad to accept that my neighbors could go so low. Then, I think it can make many normal humans angry. You probably know that you are now a target. At the same time, Liz, taking a courageous position is not only the best ethical decision; it is the best decision for our spiritual well being. The importance of that can’t c
Re: [UC] The way he should have handled it, were he not playing CYA so desperately
Is this a "When did you stop beating your kid?" question? Or just a continuation of a trend that asks a distracting question that insures that the "guilt" of the person or people who irritate the asker is a 'given', and... ... that the irritators are presumed "blame"-able for something? ... a reminder that the irratatees have a tight little clique and are reading from a similar script. Liz On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 12:41:18 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, Al, are you saying that the Philadelphia candidate, Tom Knox, should have taken the blame for having John Fenton help out with his political rally? Melani Lamond
Re: [UC] The way he should have handled it, were he not playing CYA so desperately
In a message dated 7/15/07 9:56:42 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > McCain accepts blame for missteps > By Associated Press > Saturday, July 14, 2007 > > CONCORD, N.H. - Republican John McCain said yesterday he was to blame for > the weakened state of his presidential campaign that has undergone two major > staff shake-ups in a week and is nearly broke. > > “We’ve made mistakes,” the Arizona senator said during an interview > with New Hampshire Public Radio. “The responsibility is mine. I’m the > candidate.” > > [snip] > > Al Krigman > Left and right of John McCain > > So, Al, are you saying that the Philadelphia candidate, Tom Knox, should have taken the blame for having John Fenton help out with his political rally? Melani Lamond Melani Lamond, Associate Broker Urban & Bye, Realtor 3529 Lancaster Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19104 cell phone 215-356-7266 office phone 215-222-4800, ext. 113 office fax 215-222-1101 2006 recipient of the Greater Philadelphia Association of Realtors awards: - Diamond award for over $8 million in sales, and ALL SIX of the West Philadelphia awards: - Top Lister - Top Seller - Top Overall Combined Volume - Top Listing Units by Area - Top Selling Units by Area - Top Overall Combined Units by Area ** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[UC] The way he should have handled it, were he not playing CYA so desperately
McCain accepts blame for missteps By Associated Press Saturday, July 14, 2007 CONCORD, N.H. - Republican John McCain said yesterday he was to blame for the weakened state of his presidential campaign that has undergone two major staff shake-ups in a week and is nearly broke. “We’ve made mistakes,” the Arizona senator said during an interview with New Hampshire Public Radio. “The responsibility is mine. I’m the candidate.” [snip] Al Krigman Left and right of John McCain ** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
