Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 8:10 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I don't think it needs to store ALL the permutations, only the viable
> ones, the ones that lead to success. That has to be a much smaller number.


There are only three outcomes: win, lose, draw. Even if the breakdown is
0.1% win, 0.1% lose, and 99.8% draw, that would still be far more positions
than could be stored using all the computing power on Earth, a billion
times over.

> But I was using that as an example of the mathematical nature of Chess. I
> think what we must mean by AI is that through recursion, a computer can
> retain successful paths to success (success being that which we define as
> success in the process.) I don't think we will ever see the day where a
> computer, lacking experience and all the data for a problem, can "reason"
> it's way to success.
>

That's almost exactly what AlphaZero did: it was given the rules for moves,
and a definition of win conditions, and then played against itself. It
wasn't given any info on existing openings or endgames. It was entirely
self-taught, in 9 hours. I think the only reason to say that it didn't
reason about the game is that we *do* understand how it works at a low
level, and at an abstract level, but we *don't* understand the specifics
about how it works at a high level. It's the same way I might understand
what a chess master means when they say a move is better because it's more
active; I understand what "active" means in general, but I would likely not
be able to say why that move was more active than several other moves.

gc
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Re: Training the AI to write better

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

Kevin,

Thanks for the excellent analysis.

> it was a brilliant idea to kick this theme off and let it develop
> so creatively. Thanks Kevin and Heather !

And thanks to Ludovic also.
He was the first to bring up ChatGPT on this list.

Jim Lambert
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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

zdnet reports that chatgpt pro subscriptions are about $42/month.

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:10 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I don't think it needs to store ALL the permutations, only the viable
> ones, the ones that lead to success. That has to be a much smaller number.
> But I was using that as an example of the mathematical nature of Chess. I
> think what we must mean by AI is that through recursion, a computer can
> retain successful paths to success (success being that which we define as
> success in the process.) I don't think we will ever see the day where a
> computer, lacking experience and all the data for a problem, can "reason"
> it's way to success.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 2023, at 23:26 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 4:09 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Meh. Don't like using Chess as a measurement of AI competence. Chess is
> in
> >> AI's wheelhouse. Once a computer can store all the possible
> permutations of
> >> chess,
> >>
> >
> > I agree on the sentiment, but a small point: the state-space of Chess is
> > about 10^44 . No computer
> > has, or foreseeably will, store all the possible permutations. It's the
> > nature of machine learning that it's pretty much impossible for us to
> > understand what something like AlphaZero
> >  *does* store, but it's not
> > anything like "in this position, play this move". Further, it appears
> > AlphaZero used 16GB of memory. It looks like Stockfish 10 (which I think
> is
> > considered stronger than AlphaZero) can use more, but will operate in
> 16GB
> > of memory as well.
> >
> > gc
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I don't think it needs to store ALL the permutations, only the viable ones, the 
ones that lead to success. That has to be a much smaller number. But I was 
using that as an example of the mathematical nature of Chess. I think what we 
must mean by AI is that through recursion, a computer can retain successful 
paths to success (success being that which we define as success in the 
process.) I don't think we will ever see the day where a computer, lacking 
experience and all the data for a problem, can "reason" it's way to success. 

Bob S


> On Jan 23, 2023, at 23:26 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 4:09 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Meh. Don't like using Chess as a measurement of AI competence. Chess is in
>> AI's wheelhouse. Once a computer can store all the possible permutations of
>> chess,
>> 
> 
> I agree on the sentiment, but a small point: the state-space of Chess is
> about 10^44 . No computer
> has, or foreseeably will, store all the possible permutations. It's the
> nature of machine learning that it's pretty much impossible for us to
> understand what something like AlphaZero
>  *does* store, but it's not
> anything like "in this position, play this move". Further, it appears
> AlphaZero used 16GB of memory. It looks like Stockfish 10 (which I think is
> considered stronger than AlphaZero) can use more, but will operate in 16GB
> of memory as well.
> 
> gc
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> preferences:
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