Re: Mudslinging and consequences - a change to our policy

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

Amen

Met vriendelijke groet,
Erik Beugelaar

From: use-livecode  on behalf of chipsm 
themartinz.com via use-livecode 
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 2:30:40 PM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: chipsm themartinz.com 
Subject: RE: Mudslinging and consequences - a change to our policy

Thankyou Heather.
I use the List to learn and explore new concepts using LiveCode. I find myself 
spending a lot time these days deleting many post that are meaningless because 
of these needless Rants.
I use or try to use LiveCode because it is so versatile and exciting.
I'd like to spend my time exploring and learning and not deleting useless post.

Sincerely,
Clarence Martin
Email: chi...@themartinz.com
Cell: (626)696-5561

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode  On Behalf Of Heather 
Laine via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 5:00 AM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Heather Laine 
Subject: Mudslinging and consequences - a change to our policy

Dear List Folks,

This list is intended for users to help each other in the use of LiveCode. 
Sometimes LC staff get involved and help out here also. It can be a great place 
to constructively discuss improvements. It is not a place to take potshots at 
each other, at LiveCode or at LiveCode staff. In the future, if a list member 
is perceived to be doing this by myself or by a reasonable set of other list 
members, they will be banned.

For the avoidance of doubt, by taking potshots I mean:

Accusations of untruths, lying or lack of integrity Persistently pointing out 
flaws in LiveCode without any positive suggestions on resolution Namecalling of 
any kind General rudeness - please re-read your post before sending and check 
it for tone

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What everyone is not entitled to do is 
express unfounded negative opinions about LiveCode and its staff on this list, 
which is run by LiveCode, for LiveCode, and for the benefit of LiveCode's users.

I trust I make myself clear. This warning will not be repeated.

Warmest Regards,

Heather


Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com




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Re: Mud slinging versus genuine criticism

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

Hi folks,

What has it for purpose to bully a company with high educated compassioned 
people, maybe also fighting to survive, to critisize?

Most of us, cross me when I am wrong, have already a closed license.

Some of us had paid a lot, some less.

Its life.

Kevin, Mark, Heather and all members, Xmas is coming, all wishes in this hard 
times to come.

Best wishes,

Erik


Met vriendelijke groet,
Erik Beugelaar

From: use-livecode  on behalf of Pi 
Digital via use-livecode 
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 11:41:25 AM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Pi Digital 
Subject: Re: Mud slinging versus genuine criticism

I would if I could, Bob.

I seriously would if I could!

Sigh.

Sean


> On 24 Oct 2021, at 02:51, Bob Sneidar wrote:
>
> If Sean doesn’t like the product, he is certainly within his rights to 
> cancel his subscription and cut off all associations.
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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

I hv never had slowdowns with the IDE or else in Windows 10.
But my system has 32 Gb internal RAM and I use only NVMe. Fastest i7 too. No 
problems.
Its all about hardware when u develop software.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Erik Beugelaar

From: use-livecode  on behalf of Bernard 
Devlin via use-livecode 
Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2021 7:08:09 PM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Bernard Devlin 
Subject: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Without knowing anything other than "the IDE is like treacle"  I loaded
various stacks in Windows to see what the complaint could possibly be about.
8 seconds for IDE to start - no treacle on opening stacks
8 seconds to open Dictionary - no treacle on searching Dictionary (given
it's loading 1000 pages of lightning-fast searchable text, I think 8
seconds isn't too bad).  I generally open it once and don't shut it until I
close LC.

So I created a new stack and pasted 8000 lines of text into the Script
Editor.  Typing in the Editor then became treacley (but not on OS X).
Switching off Edit/Options/live errors removed any speed degradation on
typing.  Assuming I've correctly identified where the issue is, the issue
is not the IDE, the issue is doing something specific with large scripts
inside the Script Editor.  That may well be the issue that Mark Waddingham
was discussing about sorting text.  The Script editor doesn't slow down
with 100s of lines.

As for general weirdness with Windows. When Windows "anti-virus" scam kicks
in every day, my laptop stops working (even trying to switch between apps
is treacley).  This is something MS have made almost impossible to disable
(I haven't found a way), and I can't set the priority low. I just have to
leave the laptop for an hour and go to do something else.  Someone trying
to save a file during this scan is likely to experience slow file saves.
I've also seen Windows Update taking large amounts of RAM.  These things
are less noticeable on my Windows desktop.

Regards, Bernard

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 5:15 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> It's worse than the unicode text issue. Saving stacks is from my setup 7
> to 8 times slower in Windows than on a Mac, and I have tried numerous
> Windows configurations from bare metal to VMWare servers running on a
> robust host. In discussions in the past, it seems there isn't a lot
> Livecode can do about it. The issues are with Windows itself. At least that
> was the upshot of the discussions.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Sep 3, 2021, at 06:56 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought
> this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't
> occur to me that it was just speed.
> >
> > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed
> issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been
> affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that
> I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be
> fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to
> be something platform specific.
> >
> > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm
> whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems
> with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7.
> >
> > Ben
>
>
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Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

Excuses for my typos. Kevin ofcourse.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Erik Beugelaar

From: e.beugel...@me.com 
Sent: Friday, September 3, 2021 3:39:54 PM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Subject: Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

About this I can say it is really true.
I am supporting LiveCode from 2012 and never had the time to program a single 
word in it... but I loved the filosophy. I only did a review for Packt 
Publishing. There is hope!!!
Blame me not to write any code till yet ;-) but the people behind LiveCode are 
honest, great, intelligent and always willing to help you out. So hive it a try 
and just call the HQ, Heather or Kelvin will sort it out if u hv license or 
financial problems to obtain a new license offer.
Nice weekend to you all.

Met vriendelijke groet / kind regards
Erik Beugelaar

From: use-livecode  on behalf of J. 
Landman Gay via use-livecode 
Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 5:36:28 AM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: J. Landman Gay 
Subject: Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to contact
support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone.

It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, but
they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please do
write to Heather.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode
 wrote:

>> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
>>
>> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were
>> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert
>> Plan subscription expires.
>
> Not even Apple is that rapacious.
>
> I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although
> the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been
> “freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses
> being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I
> wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally
> contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to
> a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for
> our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every
> year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server
> is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the
> app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard
> day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end.
> A great pity, but I guess times move on.
>
> I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous
> community for many years.
>
> Neville Smythe
>
> ___
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> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

About this I can say it is really true.
I am supporting LiveCode from 2012 and never had the time to program a single 
word in it... but I loved the filosophy. I only did a review for Packt 
Publishing. There is hope!!!
Blame me not to write any code till yet ;-) but the people behind LiveCode are 
honest, great, intelligent and always willing to help you out. So hive it a try 
and just call the HQ, Heather or Kelvin will sort it out if u hv license or 
financial problems to obtain a new license offer.
Nice weekend to you all.

Met vriendelijke groet / kind regards
Erik Beugelaar

From: use-livecode  on behalf of J. 
Landman Gay via use-livecode 
Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 5:36:28 AM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: J. Landman Gay 
Subject: Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to contact
support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone.

It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, but
they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please do
write to Heather.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode
 wrote:

>> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
>>
>> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were
>> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert
>> Plan subscription expires.
>
> Not even Apple is that rapacious.
>
> I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although
> the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been
> “freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses
> being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I
> wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally
> contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to
> a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for
> our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every
> year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server
> is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the
> app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard
> day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end.
> A great pity, but I guess times move on.
>
> I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous
> community for many years.
>
> Neville Smythe
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




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Re: native scroller cuts off parts of last line in a field

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

I am still wondering why layout issues anno 2021 has to be programmed manually 
for all devices. It is nonsense and don't make sense.
I started programming with Clipper 5.x in text base environments and even in 
that period we had ClipDAS, i was co-writer of it, to draw virtual screens.
Is it really so hard to add a general page designer to deal with positioning 
objects anno 2021! I dont want to spent my time on this stupid rect issues but 
instead focus on the business logic etc. Jesus.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Erik Beugelaar



From: use-livecode  on behalf of Klaus 
major-k via use-livecode 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 1:56:37 PM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Klaus major-k 
Subject: Re: native scroller cuts off parts of last line in a field

Hi Brian,

> Am 20.04.2021 um 13:48 schrieb Brian Milby via use-livecode 
> :
>
> I think that is just a bug.

wonderful! :-(

> See here for workaround idea:
> https://github.com/Himalayan-Academy/Siva-Siva-App/blob/nightly/behaviors/behavior_mobileScroller.livecodescript
> Basic idea is to add 60 or so px to content region and then adjust a bit when 
> not at the top.  Requires adjustments in scrollerDidScroll handler.

I even added a line of WHITE text (field has white background) at the end, but 
obviously LC does not see this!?
Will try the workaround thank you!

> Thanks,

no, I thank YOU! 8-)

> Brian

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: LC Bug: Copying an Image fails

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

Hi Curry,

It's always fun to read your comments and conclusions that can be somethimes  
interpreted in Dutch as: "de redding is nabij".
So, a solution is near to come!

Nice weekend,
Erik

Met vriendelijke groet,

Erik Beugelaar



From: use-livecode  on behalf of Curry 
Kenworthy via use-livecode 
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2021 5:55:19 AM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
Cc: Curry Kenworthy 
Subject: Re: LC Bug: Copying an Image fails


Bob:

 > MS Office copy operations are notoriously problematic.
 > Microsoft maintains their own clipboard format, so that when
 > switching to another product the clipboard must be translated.
 > Other apps may do the same.
 > The translation does not always go to plan.

Eh ... I think this is a more useful current summary:

1. The Windows blank pasted image bug was about a data stream pointer.
Thanks to the LC Team for looking into that; hope it's merged sooner.

2. There's a crash for some copied image data. Not just MS Office.

3. Mac has image copy/paste troubles too. Also not just MS Office.
I'll report that soon, and we'll probably see improvement.

4. There are dozens of issues with copied content being converted in LC.
I'm crushing many of those with workarounds, so improvement there too!

Is copy/paste between apps effortless? No.
Do users expect it? Yes.
Even with the most popular apps? Of course!
There are problems, but also progress

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: LC Roadmap

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.

Get Outlook for Android


From: use-livecode  on behalf of Curry 
Kenworthy via use-livecode 
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
Cc: Curry Kenworthy 
Subject: Re: LC Roadmap


JeeJeeStudio:

 > I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
 > lot of bugs are not solved.

True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
(I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)

I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
(We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)

Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.

Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??

My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.

 > Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
 > people to program. But it runs behind future facts.

Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:

A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)

If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!

And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.

LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.

I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
(I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.

That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!

Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.

We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.

 > HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..

Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.

 > And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
 > as main language, it's free, it's the future

Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
However, really the future? Maybe not!
End of LC? "Hell no!" :D

(At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)

Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
But also several other factors in play:

2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.

The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.

Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.

Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.

Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.

So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?

Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
To reinvent every 5 

Re: open secure socket... using certificate

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

Xojo is not multi platform.
If you want to move, which i regret, I strongly advise you to go for the B4X 
platform.

Get Outlook for Android


From: use-livecode  on behalf of Bernard 
Devlin via use-livecode 
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 7:19:58 PM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Bernard Devlin 
Subject: Re: open secure socket... using certificate

Hi Richard

The idea of client certificates was why I was looking for this feature for
the past 15 years. I know that PKI is complex but it is important (which is
why browsers implemented it decades ago).  Even tsNet behaves very
differently on Windows and OS X when it comes to server certificates (looks
to me that Microsoft is mis-implementing their libcurl/schannel interface,
but I guess it stung them 20 years ago when they hadn't implemented
Certificate Revocation Lists).

Without LC having client certificates the only option I face is moving to
another tool. Even the idea of implementing real secure sockets in a FFI
external would be a huge amount of work for any of us users (as there is
not even a single lower level language which we could rely on in each
platform, so we'd be implementing a complex security layer and learning how
to do it in several different languages).

I'm going to look at moving to Xojo. Their docs say they implemented secure
sockets with certificates in 2006.  Their Android deployment platform is
close to completion. It really would have been better for LC to have
removed those claims from the Dictionary back in 2014, as then I'd have
seen in recent years it still hadn't been implemented and would have looked
at another tool months ago rather than get to this point and realise I'd
wasted a lot of time. I've spent an entire week now just pondering on the
options on how I can move forward.

Regards, Bernard


On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 4:12 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> Thank you, Bernard.  In bringing myself up to speed on this, once I
> stumbled across the phrase "two-way SSL" I was able to find much good
> reading about it.
>
> I just added Comment #11 to the bug report on this:
>
>  The range of services requiring two-way SSL is increasing,
>  and with IoT the scope of use cases is multiplying.
>
>  Where required, I don't see an opportunity for a scripted
>  workaround, so in those cases the only alternative is to
>  leave LC for a tool that supports two-way SSL.
>
>  This would seem a good time to bite the bullet on this
>  implementation. What would be required to make it happen?
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13410#c11
>
>
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