Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Stephen MacLean]

> On Jul 25, 2016, at 4:27 AM, Peter TB Brett  wrote:
> 
> On 22/07/2016 01:58, Stephen MacLean wrote:
> 
>> While I understand why you might want to limit support to “released”
>> OSes, I would say that LC needs to checking against each “early”
>> release, looking for issues and checking for new features that might
>> be supported. LC should take bug reports against these early releases
>> and, while maybe not acting right away on them, making sure that as
>> they approach release status, those bugs get fixed.
> 
> Hi Stephen,
> 
> Sorry for not replying to you earlier.
> 
> You'll be pleased to hear that we already do this to the greatest extent that 
> we are able.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
>   Peter
> 
> 

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the response and glad to hear it!!

Best,

Steve MacLean



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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Peter TB Brett]

On 22/07/2016 01:58, Stephen MacLean wrote:


While I understand why you might want to limit support to “released”
OSes, I would say that LC needs to checking against each “early”
release, looking for issues and checking for new features that might
be supported. LC should take bug reports against these early releases
and, while maybe not acting right away on them, making sure that as
they approach release status, those bugs get fixed.


Hi Stephen,

Sorry for not replying to you earlier.

You'll be pleased to hear that we already do this to the greatest extent 
that we are able.


Best regards,

   Peter


--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Technical Project Manager

LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[[-hh]]

Being a naive user I created a new stack with LC 8.0.1
and scripted it:

on resizestack
  set rect of widget "browser" to the rect of this card
end resizestack

Then dragged the browser widget to the stack, pasted
http://livecode.com/updated-platform-support-policy/
into the URL-field

and everything works as a charme: *Responsive* page,
wonderful overview, I have'nt seen such a clear list before.





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View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/ANN-Updates-to-LiveCode-s-platform-support-policy-tp4706840p4706900.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Geoff Canyon]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Roger Eller 
wrote:

> In Chrome on Yosemite, clicking OSX opens the Linux list.  OSX list will
> not open.  Works fine in Safari.
>
> ~Roger
>

​For me on Safari, changing from one accordion entry to a lower one scrolls
up the content (because it's hiding the higher entry) meaning that the
opened  entry is off the top of the window. The accordion serves no purpose
other than to be potentially buggy or mess with the user, and the list
would be better as a simple page with sequential entries -- in other words
roughly what you would get if all the accordion entries were open at once.
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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Stephen MacLean]

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Peter TB Brett  wrote:
> 
> On 21/07/2016 15:08, Colin Holgate wrote:
> 
>> 2. It could be worth changing the title to OS X / macOS, and
>> including version 10.12 in the list. I know that it’s not released,
>> but it is in public beta, and I’m pretty sure you intend to support
>> it. LiveCode seems to be running well in 10.12.
>> 
>> As far as I can tell LiveCode apps run under iOS 10 ok too, which
>> again is not released, but would there be any harm in stating now
>> that you intend to support it?
> 
> Thank you for bringing it up, since clearly some clarification is needed!
> 
> We do not currently intend to officially support beta releases of Mac OS
> or Mac OS X or iOS.  When I say this, I mean that we would like to know
> if there are any problems, and we will certainly investigate
> problems promptly; however, beta and/or preview releases are not included in 
> the list of tests that must pass in order to release LiveCode, and we can't 
> commit to providing technical support if you run into problems.
> 
> LiveCode might well run fine on these preview releases!  However, until Apple 
> releases a version of Mac OS 10.12 to general availability, using LiveCode on 
> it will not be officially supported.  Realistically, we need time to get our 
> systems and staff up to speed!
> 
> I can happily state that we intend to extend official support to any new 
> stable releases of OS X / Mac OS / iOS that Apple come out with.  So, since 
> 10.12 stable isn't out yet, it's not yet supported.  I will clarify the text 
> in the blog post.
> 
> Note that Ubuntu Linux 16.10 alpha, and Fedora Linux "Rawhide", and Debian 
> Unstable, and Android N previews and Windows  are all 
> _also_ not officially supported.  But LiveCode, and apps made with it, may 
> very well work perfectly on any or all of them!
> 
> I hope that clarifies the situation.  Please let me know if you have any 
> further questions or concerns.
> 
>Peter

While I understand why you might want to limit support to “released” OSes, I 
would say that LC needs to checking against each “early” release, looking for 
issues and checking for new features that might be supported. LC should take 
bug reports against these early releases and, while maybe not acting right away 
on them, making sure that as they approach release status, those bugs get fixed.

As a development tool it is imperative that LC be ready for a new OS release. 
If there is a change that breaks a LC app with a new OS release, it is 
imperative that LC be updated and ready to go so the developer can release an 
updated app on day one. Having to wait weeks or longer to update your LC app 
after the “Official” release of an OS makes the developer and their app look 
bad at best.

Both Apple and Microsoft (and any linux tools I’m sure) make sure that their 
tools support these early releases so that developers can keep their apps 
updated and ready as well as take advantage of any new features and technology 
that they are adding. By NOT keeping LC updated in the same fashion, LC becomes 
a second class citizen and choice for development.

I really can’t stress this enough. Use VM’s, don’t mess with your production 
systems, but have LC ready for whatever NEW OS that LC supports when it comes 
out. 

Best,

Steve MacLean



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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Peter TB Brett]

On 21/07/2016 15:08, Colin Holgate wrote:

A couple of comments about the OS X entry:

1. The description is unnecessarily political. Under linux you take
the time to explain the support for several different version of
Linux, all of which added together are not as popular as Mac OS.
Under OS X you’re almost apologizing for taking away support time for
other platforms.


It was very difficult to decide which of the many, many, many versions 
and variants of Linux to which to extend official support.  Some 
justification for that choice was required.


It was dead easy to choose which versions of MacOS to support: the ones 
that Apple themselves support.


Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Technical Project Manager

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Peter TB Brett]

On 21/07/2016 15:08, Colin Holgate wrote:


2. It could be worth changing the title to OS X / macOS, and
including version 10.12 in the list. I know that it’s not released,
but it is in public beta, and I’m pretty sure you intend to support
it. LiveCode seems to be running well in 10.12.

As far as I can tell LiveCode apps run under iOS 10 ok too, which
again is not released, but would there be any harm in stating now
that you intend to support it?


Thank you for bringing it up, since clearly some clarification is needed!

We do not currently intend to officially support beta releases of Mac OS
or Mac OS X or iOS.  When I say this, I mean that we would like to know
if there are any problems, and we will certainly investigate
problems promptly; however, beta and/or preview releases are not 
included in the list of tests that must pass in order to release 
LiveCode, and we can't commit to providing technical support if you run 
into problems.


LiveCode might well run fine on these preview releases!  However, until 
Apple releases a version of Mac OS 10.12 to general availability, using 
LiveCode on it will not be officially supported.  Realistically, we need 
time to get our systems and staff up to speed!


I can happily state that we intend to extend official support to any new 
stable releases of OS X / Mac OS / iOS that Apple come out with.  So, 
since 10.12 stable isn't out yet, it's not yet supported.  I will 
clarify the text in the blog post.


Note that Ubuntu Linux 16.10 alpha, and Fedora Linux "Rawhide", and 
Debian Unstable, and Android N previews and Windows  
are all _also_ not officially supported.  But LiveCode, and apps made 
with it, may very well work perfectly on any or all of them!


I hope that clarifies the situation.  Please let me know if you have any 
further questions or concerns.


Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Technical Project Manager

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Richard Gaskin]

Colin Holgate wrote:

> 1. The description is unnecessarily political. Under linux you take
> the time to explain the support for several different version of
> Linux, all of which added together are not as popular as Mac OS.
> Under OS X you’re almost apologizing for taking away support time for
> other platforms.

I'm impressed by your sensitivity to the nuance there, but not 
surprised; you've always been among the more astute and considerate of us.


In this case, though, it may be a cultural thing:  Linux folks tend to 
have thick skins (well, except when they're arguing with other Linux 
folks), and generally accept the inherent complexity that comes with 
having so many distros to choose from.


While folks managing end-user-focused distros like Ubuntu or Mint tend 
to be picky about nomenclature and how it may affect the gestalt of the 
UX, you'll almost never see a developer running Kali or Qubes 
complaining that they weren't sufficiently catered to. :)


Like Roger, I didn't even notice it.


I'm not sure what this has to do with LC's support page, but it was 
interesting just the same:

>  http://9to5mac.com/2016/03/18/os-x-versus-linux-developers/

That Linux has earned enough of an audience for that to be even a 
question is noteworthy in itself.


But it's also worth noting that the survey only touches one side of the 
development workflow, the client.


Most development work these days is client-server, and like Apple 
themselves, with most devs the server side is usually Linux, sometimes 
Windows, and rarely Mac.


I had a good talk with a lead server engineer from Apple who had a booth 
at the SoCal Linux Expo looking for talent to help manage their 
ever-growing Linux installs, and Apple's investment in Linux to run so 
much of their backend infrastructure is impressive.



> 2. It could be worth changing the title to OS X / macOS, and
> including version 10.12 in the list.

Seconded.  Not only is it more au curant, but Apple's recent renaming 
back to a variant of its original name helps our humble language avoid a 
token change, since "macos" is the string constant returned with platform().


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Richard Gaskin]

Roger Eller wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 7:09 AM, Peter TB Brett wrote:
>
>> Please read more this change on the LiveCode blog:
>> https://livecode.com/updated-platform-support-policy/
>>
> In Chrome on Yosemite, clicking OSX opens the Linux list.  OSX list
> will not open.  Works fine in Safari.

Thanks for reporting that.  FWIW it works well here on Chrome for Ubuntu.

This is an especially useful report for the readers of a list about a 
multi-platform development tool:


Those who do web development understand all too well that, despite using 
relatively limited APIs designed specifically for omni-platform 
interoperability and financed by some of the largest companies in 
history, inconsistencies between brands of browsers and versions of 
browsers and different OSes make for a tragically unpredictable world of 
development expense that not even the world's considerable investment in 
HTML5 as a common spec has yet eliminated.


Warts and all, compared to the best work of the world's biggest 
companies, LC looks pretty good, even more so when we compare the amount 
of financing for the respective teams.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Roger Eller]

There is political bias anytime the source of the info has "mac" in the
name of the website.  I think LiveCode was very thoughtful to detail their
reasons, and I didn't consider it a political apology at all.

~Roger


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Colin Holgate 
wrote:

> A couple of comments about the OS X entry:
>
> 1. The description is unnecessarily political. Under linux you take the
> time to explain the support for several different version of Linux, all of
> which added together are not as popular as Mac OS. Under OS X you’re almost
> apologizing for taking away support time for other platforms.
>
> http://9to5mac.com/2016/03/18/os-x-versus-linux-developers/ <
> http://9to5mac.com/2016/03/18/os-x-versus-linux-developers/>
>
> 2. It could be worth changing the title to OS X / macOS, and including
> version 10.12 in the list. I know that it’s not released, but it is in
> public beta, and I’m pretty sure you intend to support it. LiveCode seems
> to be running well in 10.12.
>
> As far as I can tell LiveCode apps run under iOS 10 ok too, which again is
> not released, but would there be any harm in stating now that you intend to
> support it?
>
>
> > On Jul 21, 2016, at 7:09 AM, Peter TB Brett 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Today, we are announcing some changes to the list of
> officially-supported platforms, i.e. the platforms that we use to test
> LiveCode, and that you can normally expect our support team will be able to
> help you with.
> >
> > Please read more this change on the LiveCode blog:
> > https://livecode.com/updated-platform-support-policy/
> >
> >  Peter
> >
> > --
> > Dr Peter Brett 
> > LiveCode Technical Project Manager
> >
> > LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
> >
> > ___
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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Colin Holgate]

A couple of comments about the OS X entry:

1. The description is unnecessarily political. Under linux you take the time to 
explain the support for several different version of Linux, all of which added 
together are not as popular as Mac OS. Under OS X you’re almost apologizing for 
taking away support time for other platforms.

http://9to5mac.com/2016/03/18/os-x-versus-linux-developers/ 


2. It could be worth changing the title to OS X / macOS, and including version 
10.12 in the list. I know that it’s not released, but it is in public beta, and 
I’m pretty sure you intend to support it. LiveCode seems to be running well in 
10.12.

As far as I can tell LiveCode apps run under iOS 10 ok too, which again is not 
released, but would there be any harm in stating now that you intend to support 
it?


> On Jul 21, 2016, at 7:09 AM, Peter TB Brett  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Today, we are announcing some changes to the list of officially-supported 
> platforms, i.e. the platforms that we use to test LiveCode, and that you can 
> normally expect our support team will be able to help you with.
> 
> Please read more this change on the LiveCode blog:
> https://livecode.com/updated-platform-support-policy/
> 
>  Peter
> 
> -- 
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Technical Project Manager
> 
> LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
> 
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Re: [ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Roger Eller]

In Chrome on Yosemite, clicking OSX opens the Linux list.  OSX list will
not open.  Works fine in Safari.

~Roger


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 7:09 AM, Peter TB Brett 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Today, we are announcing some changes to the list of officially-supported
> platforms, i.e. the platforms that we use to test LiveCode, and that you
> can normally expect our support team will be able to help you with.
>
> Please read more this change on the LiveCode blog:
> https://livecode.com/updated-platform-support-policy/
>
>   Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Technical Project Manager
>
> LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
>
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> subscription preferences:
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[ANN] Updates to LiveCode's platform support policy

[Peter TB Brett]

Hi all,

Today, we are announcing some changes to the list of 
officially-supported platforms, i.e. the platforms that we use to test 
LiveCode, and that you can normally expect our support team will be able 
to help you with.


Please read more this change on the LiveCode blog:
https://livecode.com/updated-platform-support-policy/

  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Technical Project Manager

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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