Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Geoff Canyon]

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Mark Wilcox wrote:

> developers using it had much lower expectations



There's a huge 
blubissue
here. Of course most people think their language is pretty good. Most
don't know any better, and those who do likely moved on.

The only people who are (somewhat) suited to judge a language are those who
can judge it relative to another language, and then only the relative
difference between the two languages.

I can say, for example, that LC's IDE kicks ass compared to PHP, but only
for the PHP IDEs I've seen.

I can say that LC's math libraries *really* need bignum and arbitrary
precision integer math compared to J.

I can say that J's ability to handle arbitrary arrays kicks ass over LC,
RB, PHP, Ruby, Python... everything I've ever used. Same thing with their
power functions, and inverse functions (*that* will bake your noodle).

I can say that FileMaker's label abstraction destroys every other tool I've
used.

LISP macros (in my limited understanding) kick major ass, and I am *s*
looking forward to having something similar with open language.

But it's much harder to say how LC rates on a scale of 1-10.
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Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Mark Wilcox]

Chipp Walters  wrote:


> Interesting as Haxe (the overall winner, and winner in Development Speed)
> doesn't even have an IDE. It would be interesting to have a LC/Haxe
> shootout with a Haxe developer, who evidently must be expert in CSS,
> Javascript, HTML and probably a host of other inside frameworks, all
> without having any sort of native IDE in place.


Haxe is interesting but my view was that developers using it had much lower 
expectations. Average revenues of Haxe developers were less than half those for 
LiveCode developers, suggesting there were a lot more hobbyists/enthusiasts 
than professionals or they were primarily using it to build games (where lower 
average revenues are the norm - it's a rather competitive category).

IDE's are a matter of personal taste though.  My understanding is that the 
majority of web developers don't use IDE's at all for example.

Mark
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Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Mark Wilcox]

Mark Wieder  wrote:


> Thanks. Yes, I do take these things with a grain of salt
> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_of_salt>)... it's interesting that all
> the tools seem to group together pretty well in terms of user satisfaction
> in all areas, so my take-away there is that developers are generally happy
> with what they know and use. No real surprises there.


Actually, I only included the most popular ones in terms of number of 
developers rating them - when you go outside that list there are some people 
far less happy with their tools!

> I find the first graph pretty useless, though. While it's marginally useful
> to know that the total is the sum of its parts, it's almost impossible to do
> comparisons of any of the parts except the bottom one because of the
> staggered sections.


I'm not entirely sold on stacked column graphs in general for exactly that 
reason, although it's really the only option Infogram offers for visualising a 
table of that nature. If you're not on a desktop browser then you can hover 
over the individual segments to see their numeric values directly for 
comparison.

Mark



 From: 
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
Sent: Monday, 22 April 2013, 17:42
Subject: Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout
 

Mark Wilcox  writes:

> LiveCode came out third overall in case anyone is interested in seeing the
numbers:
> http://build.developereconomics.com/cross-platform-tools-shootout/

Thanks. Yes, I do take these things with a grain of salt
(<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_of_salt>)... it's interesting that all
the tools seem to group together pretty well in terms of user satisfaction
in all areas, so my take-away there is that developers are generally happy
with what they know and use. No real surprises there.

I find the first graph pretty useless, though. While it's marginally useful
to know that the total is the sum of its parts, it's almost impossible to do
comparisons of any of the parts except the bottom one because of the
staggered sections.

...and I'm surprised that Adobe AIR gets such high ratings. Having been
stuck using it for the last couple of years, I have developed a lot of
sympathy for Colin.

-- 
Mark Wieder
mwie...@ahsoftware.net





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Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Chipp Walters]

Interesting as Haxe (the overall winner, and winner in Development Speed)
doesn't even have an IDE. It would be interesting to have a LC/Haxe
shootout with a Haxe developer, who evidently must be expert in CSS,
Javascript, HTML and probably a host of other inside frameworks, all
without having any sort of native IDE in place.

Chipp Walters



On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Mark Wilcox wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've been digging through the data from VisionMobile's last developer
> survey (they're running another one at the moment) which a lot of happy
> LiveCoder's participated in. Every week I publish some new nugget of info.
> This week it's the results of the developer satisfaction questions on
> cross-platform tools. LiveCode came out third overall in case anyone is
> interested in seeing the numbers:
> http://build.developereconomics.com/cross-platform-tools-shootout/
>
>
> This data shouldn't be taken too seriously but the weaknesses that
> prevented a win were "Native UI look and feel" which presumably will be
> fixed by the upcoming theming support and "Access to native APIs" - what is
> everyone missing? Desktop features missing? Lack of Android Externals? Or
> hasn't Monte been working hard enough. ;)
>
> Mark
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Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Monte Goulding]

On 23/04/2013, at 1:17 AM, Mark Wilcox  wrote:

> Or hasn't Monte been working hard enough. ;)

Ha... my wife will disagree on that one!

I've really got to slow down but I'm like a kid with a new toy with the engine 
;-)

--
Monte Goulding

M E R Goulding - software development services
mergExt - There's an external for that!





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Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Mark Wilcox  wrote:
>
> This data shouldn't be taken too seriously but the weaknesses that prevented 
> a win were
>"Native UI look and feel" which presumably will be fixed by the upcoming 
>theming support
>and "Access to native APIs" -

Gee, I demand those cross-platform native APIs . . .

:)



-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462

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Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Colin Holgate]

I wish LiveCode had the scale modes I get to use in Flash.


On Apr 22, 2013, at 12:42 PM, Mark Wieder  wrote:

> ...and I'm surprised that Adobe AIR gets such high ratings. Having been
> stuck using it for the last couple of years, I have developed a lot of
> sympathy for Colin.

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Re: [OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Mark Wieder]

Mark Wilcox  writes:

> LiveCode came out third overall in case anyone is interested in seeing the
numbers:
> http://build.developereconomics.com/cross-platform-tools-shootout/

Thanks. Yes, I do take these things with a grain of salt
()... it's interesting that all
the tools seem to group together pretty well in terms of user satisfaction
in all areas, so my take-away there is that developers are generally happy
with what they know and use. No real surprises there.

I find the first graph pretty useless, though. While it's marginally useful
to know that the total is the sum of its parts, it's almost impossible to do
comparisons of any of the parts except the bottom one because of the
staggered sections.

...and I'm surprised that Adobe AIR gets such high ratings. Having been
stuck using it for the last couple of years, I have developed a lot of
sympathy for Colin.

-- 
 Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net





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[OT] Cross-platform tools shootout

[Mark Wilcox]

Hi,

I've been digging through the data from VisionMobile's last developer survey 
(they're running another one at the moment) which a lot of happy LiveCoder's 
participated in. Every week I publish some new nugget of info. This week it's 
the results of the developer satisfaction questions on cross-platform tools. 
LiveCode came out third overall in case anyone is interested in seeing the 
numbers:
http://build.developereconomics.com/cross-platform-tools-shootout/


This data shouldn't be taken too seriously but the weaknesses that prevented a 
win were "Native UI look and feel" which presumably will be fixed by the 
upcoming theming support and "Access to native APIs" - what is everyone 
missing? Desktop features missing? Lack of Android Externals? Or hasn't Monte 
been working hard enough. ;)

Mark
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